Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 -----Original Message----- >I think I must have missed the references to that second book; Wally, could >you post the details again please? > >Joe B. > Sure. But I also want to repeat in advance that it is a book about Christian fundamentalism, specifically of the Calvinist variety [NOT pentacostalism]. And I would not go out of my way to recommend it even to a liberal Christian. That said, the book is 'The Mind of the Bible-Believer', by Edmund D. Cohen. I read it, found it fascinating, and saw a lot of connections between what Cohen had to say about fundamentalism and the dynamics of AA. A big part of the book deals with what he calls the 'devices' of the [evangelical] mind-control system, to wit: (1) The benign attractive persona of the Bible (2) Discrediting " The World " (3) Logocide (4) Assaulting integrity (5) Dissociation induction (6) Bridge burning (7) Holy terror These all have direct analogues in the AA mind-control system. For example, what Cohen calls 'logocide' is what Ken Ragge describes as 'the language of non-thought', in which " Individual words are given meanings or shades of meaning entirely separate from their normal usage. " The book is over 400 pages long and the author is a fellow who was brought up in a secular Jewish family, became a Jungian psychotherapist, became a Bible-Believer himself (!), escaped, and then got sick of all the spiritual hoohah and became a lawyer. Although he writes well, the book is not exactly an easy read ;-). Cohen expresses a frank ambition to be the Ludwig Feuerbach of the contemporary era. --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 At 12:31 09/06/00 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks, Doug, and also and dave. I don't think I said anything >original, though I admit it is pretty well 'boiled down' ;-) Most of what I >believe to be the case about How It Works comes from Ken's book and from the >Edmund Cohen book that I have mentioned a couple of times. > >--wally I think I must have missed the references to that second book; Wally, could you post the details again please? Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Don't forget that many Christians believe in proselytizing. This has had a profound impact on world culture. They took away so many feathers they could have manufactured pillows. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Does anybody remember Disney's " Dumbo " ? Big-eared baby elephant has life >crisis ... crows convince him that he can fly if he holds a " magic feather " , >elephant flies, but feels helpless without his feather, even though its >magic is all in his mind. Then another crisis where elephant flies without >the feather & is truly free to be himself. > >As far as the angry, threatened people who have been able to make positive >life changes while in AA, I am reminded of sports - as when an athlete >learns to get into a certain mindset that allows him/her to perform a given >task. Not every frame of mind works for every athlete, and these strategies >are to enhance performance, they can't take the place of the athlete's >talent and training. However, if an athlete was in that mental zone, >readying for a dive, or at the plate, and someone questioned the " truth " of >it or its efficacy, I can understand the panic and discomfort that would >result. > >I admit I have a hard time taking away anyone's " feather " - we all tell >ourselves stories about what the world is, who we are, and how best to think >and to live - I can't tell someone that their way is right or wrong. Also, >I find value in many " untruths " - works of fiction, folklore and mythologies >of many cultures, etc. I don't ask only what is TRUE before I see a >possible benefit. > >My biggest problem is the " our way is the only way " lie and the " we are not >a cult/religion " lie. " Cultish " dynamics occur everywhere from scout troops >to corporations to churches, and to me this is not an inherently bad thing >IMO. They can get things done, certainly. If AA ever admitted to being a >religion, I would have less of a problem. There are people who believe lots >of things in this world, and as flawed as I consider the 12step perspective, >I am not the thought-police. I just don't want that mindset to be >systematically entrenched into our courts, our hospitals and our psyche. >That's not freedom of religion - that's a theocracy. > > >> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >>To: 12-step-freeegroups >>Subject: Re: Running scared >>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:30:58 GMT >> >> >> Hi Ben, >> >> Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. >> >> But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are >> EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will >> die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not >> follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's >> the only choice. >> The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the >> ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. >> Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, >> is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? >> If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of >> some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most >> powerful weapon mankind can have. >> I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I >> disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is >> much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are >> captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. >> >> Sue >> >> >> >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! >1. Fill in the brief application >2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds >3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR >http://click./1/5198/2/_/4324/_/960564864/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 As others have said, I see the fear that AAers have for change, as the same reason that other groups overreact when the world as they perceive it, is changing to what they believe is its detriment. A few examples: The way the police and city workers in Chicago attacked and beat the anti-war demonstrators at he 1968 Democratic Convention. The hatred which Pat on and his followers have for President Clinton and " secular humanists. " The appeal of a Pat Buchanan to a large segment of the lower middle class who rightly or wrongly, see their world turned upside down by Free Trade, Nafta, GATT, and the global economy. The reaction of what Nixon called the " silent majority " , to Mcgovern who was depicted as a radical whole platform stood for the 3 As in 1972: Acid, Amnesty for Draft Dodgers, and Abortion. The resistance of much of the south to the Supreme Court Decision that public schools must be integrated, " with all deliberate speed. " Hundreds of citizens, students and state police in Mississippi, resorting to violence to stop the first black, Meredith from entering the University of Mississippi. Along these lines, Wallace blocking the schoolhouse door so black children could not attend. The connecting thread in all of these instances is that the above acted the way they did because of fear that their way of life would change. (Of course there were people involved in these instances, usually politicians who played on this fear to build their constituency. AAers, (wrongly so) believe that change would hurt their way of life. Since their number one priority is staying sober many equate any change in the status quo as something that could hurt AA and send them back to a hell on earth. Do I believe this, NO! I think AA will be around for a long time. My hope is that other groups like SMART grow in numbers. With other groups attracting more members, A will have to look at itself and take its own inventory. Hopefully this might push AA to change many of the things that need changing. There are some people who do well in AA. And no, they are not all morons. I did vey well in AA and I consider myself a litle higher on the scale than Moron. I think I rate at least an imbecile on the IQ test. I am definitely masochistic for staying on this list. There are many people who AA will never work for. My hope, probably too idealistic, is that the addiction community, have several therapeutic modalities they an addict can choose from. Originally Mikena@... Same reason people with religious conviction fight back when it appears someone is attacking their most sacred beliefs or belief system in general. Re: Running scared I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. --- Kayleigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Go to Expedia.com to win airfare to Vegas for you and 20 friends, $15,000 and a suite at Bellagio for New Year's. Or win 2 roundtrip tickets anywhere in the U.S. given away daily. Click here for a chance win. http://click./1/5295/2/_/4324/_/960503837/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2000 Report Share Posted June 10, 2000 good one Kayleigh, this made me smile Judith On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:16:15 -0700, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > Don't forget that many Christians believe in proselytizing. This has had a profound impact on world culture. They took away so many feathers they could have manufactured pillows. > --- > Kayleigh _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2000 Report Share Posted June 10, 2000 I don't get it- please enlighten me. Re: Running scared > good one Kayleigh, this made me smile > > Judith > > On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:16:15 -0700, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > Don't forget that many Christians believe in proselytizing. This has had > a profound impact on world culture. They took away so many feathers they > could have manufactured pillows. > > --- > > Kayleigh > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Remember Father's Day Is June 18th > Click Here For Great Gifts! > http://click./1/5037/2/_/4324/_/960642289/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2000 Report Share Posted June 10, 2000 The original post contained a reference to the cartoon Dumbo, in which Dumbo had a magic feather which was eventually taken away from him. You should go back in the archives and see how wrote it, she put it very well. I got over-enthusiastic in my trimming, sorry! Judith > I don't get it- please enlighten me. > Re: Running scared > > > > good one Kayleigh, this made me smile > > > > Judith > > > > On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:16:15 -0700, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > > > Don't forget that many Christians believe in proselytizing. This has > had > > a profound impact on world culture. They took away so many feathers they > > could have manufactured pillows. > > > --- > > > Kayleigh > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Remember Father's Day Is June 18th > > Click Here For Great Gifts! > > http://click./1/5037/2/_/4324/_/960642289/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2000 Report Share Posted June 10, 2000 You have to go back to 's original message, where she talked about taking away people's feathers. Sorry, I've deleted it by now. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >I don't get it- please enlighten me. > Re: Running scared > > >> good one Kayleigh, this made me smile >> >> Judith >> >> On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 22:16:15 -0700, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: >> >> > Don't forget that many Christians believe in proselytizing. This has >had >> a profound impact on world culture. They took away so many feathers they >> could have manufactured pillows. >> > --- >> > Kayleigh >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________ >> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite >> Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Remember Father's Day Is June 18th >> Click Here For Great Gifts! >> http://click./1/5037/2/_/4324/_/960642289/ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >CLICK HERE AND START SAVING ON LONG DISTANCE BILLS TODAY! >http://click./1/4125/2/_/4324/_/960643292/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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