Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 > More than a few of the posters have said this is dangerous reporting, that people are going to die and hurry up and get to a meeting. I had to just laugh at that this morning. It reminded me of Koresh. I could just imagine thats exactly what he said to people when he thought the ATF was coming. " Hurry they are coming to challenge us, pray pray pray. " It only reinforces the group. Sad thing though is so many people are so brainwashed into thinking that its either AA or death that if AA is challenged enough they may take their own lives. Thus a self fullfilling prophecy. I think it's sad that people choose to live in a world where life and death is all in someone else's hands. Whether or not they chose that world initially, they *do* choose to continue it, and they choose to defend it. It *is* their choice. Let them live with that choice. Let us live with ours. My family is way more conservative than me. My sisters are almost fundamentalist Christians, in that they feel the bible is the best source for moral conduct. One of my sisters said something in defense of Koresh, and I couldn't help thinking that I don't much care if the religious freedom of a child molester, holed up with enough weapons to start his own army, is compromised. My compassion is directed elsewhere. I apologize if anyone who reads the list is related to one of the people killed in Waco. On an individual level I understand your grief, but Koresh is not a hero. The picture is much more interesting when you view the little details and look beyond the large patches of color. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Judith, > I apologize if anyone who reads the list is related to one of the people > killed in Waco. On an individual level I understand your grief, but Koresh > is not a hero. The picture is much more interesting when you view the little > details and look beyond the large patches of color. I did not intend to come across that Koresh is a hero at any level. He simply was NOT. Nor did I mean to say that its humorous that anyone died like that. The only grief I have about that or about AA, is that the human quest for happiness, serenity, or answers to those sorts of this... is so powerful that it leads people into tragic circumstances. To me that is the little picture without all the fancy color. Louree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 > I did not intend to come across that Koresh is a hero at any level. He > simply was NOT. Nor did I mean to say that its humorous that anyone died > like that. You didn't come across as saying either of those things. I apologize if I implied that you did. I'm absurdly careful and politically correct in my language. >The only grief I have about that or about AA, is that the human > quest for happiness, serenity, or answers to those sorts of this... is so > powerful that it leads people into tragic circumstances. To me that is the > little picture without all the fancy color. this is exactly what I got from your post. Again, sorry about the miscommunication. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 i think i got what you were saying. it comes down to true belivers when faced witha harsh reality (david koreash and atf or stepprs and 20/20) will resort to thier programning/beleifs as a way to rationalize conflicting input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Hi, > I have gone through a lot of the posts at the ABC message board last night and today. I have to say that initially it frightened the hell out of me to see the fear of so many Steppers. I spent half of last night in a panic myself that indeed the end of the world was coming, or that people would die etc etc etc. The old programming stuff was coming up something fierce. > This morning though I have to say, reading through more of those posts Ive realized that so many of those Steppers are reacting out of the same fear that I had last night. They are so deep into the program that they cant see anything other than black and white. Either you stay in AA or you die. The fear/emotional level is so high that none of them can seem to rationalize any of this out, they either stand firmly behind slogans and program rhetoric or attack " the enemy " . Quite honestly, the reaction is only confirming to me the mind control/ cult like behavior of AA. > More than a few of the posters have said this is dangerous reporting, that people are going to die and hurry up and get to a meeting. I had to just laugh at that this morning. It reminded me of Koresh. I could just imagine thats exactly what he said to people when he thought the ATF was coming. " Hurry they are coming to challenge us, pray pray pray. " It only reinforces the group. Sad thing though is so many people are so brainwashed into thinking that its either AA or death that if AA is challenged enough they may take their own lives. Thus a self fullfilling prophecy. > >Louree > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Same reason people with religious conviction fight back when it appears someone is attacking their most sacred beliefs or belief system in general. Re: Running scared I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. --- Kayleigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Kayleigh, I have a couple of thoughts on the subject of AAer's fears around anything differing from what they believe to be their " redemption " from alcoholism. First, notice that the 12 steps, rightly or, in my view, wrongly provide a strict set of rules to live by. In the interpretation of these " rules " they can conceivably operate as they always have--go through these motions, and as if by magic be forgiven for being the same self absorbed uncaring folks they always had been, yet gain the acceptance of their peers for " working a good program. " In all fairness I want to say that not every one I met in AA used this process to stay sick, but an alarming amount did Too, the meetings I have been to, for the most part have found the ultimate way of not considering another alternative by asserting that, " if it isn't written in the book, it is opinion, and we don't care to hear it. " I believe the 12stepers reliance on the Book and its 12 steps is a way for these folks--just like children--to understand the parameters of their life. To have to rethink these parameters would mean that their current reality is not valid, and (forgive the language) every thing they believe to be true is shit!!!!!!!! llawrence@... Re: Running scared > I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > --- > Kayleigh > > Zz > zZ > |\ z _,,,---,,_ > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > > > > > >Hi, > > I have gone through a lot of the posts at the ABC message board last night and today. I have to say that initially it frightened the hell out of me to see the fear of so many Steppers. I spent half of last night in a panic myself that indeed the end of the world was coming, or that people would die etc etc etc. The old programming stuff was coming up something fierce. > > This morning though I have to say, reading through more of those posts Ive realized that so many of those Steppers are reacting out of the same fear that I had last night. They are so deep into the program that they cant see anything other than black and white. Either you stay in AA or you die. The fear/emotional level is so high that none of them can seem to rationalize any of this out, they either stand firmly behind slogans and program rhetoric or attack " the enemy " . Quite honestly, the reaction is only confirming to me the mind control/ cult like behavior of AA. > > More than a few of the posters have said this is dangerous reporting, that people are going to die and hurry up and get to a meeting. I had to just laugh at that this morning. It reminded me of Koresh. I could just imagine thats exactly what he said to people when he thought the ATF was coming. " Hurry they are coming to challenge us, pray pray pray. " It only reinforces the group. Sad thing though is so many people are so brainwashed into thinking that its either AA or death that if AA is challenged enough they may take their own lives. Thus a self fullfilling prophecy. > > > >Louree > > > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Before you buy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Never lose a file again. Protect yourself from accidental deletes, > overwrites, and viruses with @Backup. > Try @Backup it's easy, it's safe, and it's FREE! > Click here to receive 300 MyPoints just for trying @Backup. > http://click./1/4936/2/_/4324/_/960503178/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Hi Joe: They've built their lives around incorrect assumptions. Fallacies if you will. Is it any wonder they're fighting to keep them even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. How would any of us feel if the foundations of our lives were yanked away from us, with little warning, in the process invalidating everything we stood for all in front of millions of on-lookers. Ouch that's gotta hurt! Re: Running scared At 16:17 08/06/00 -0700, you wrote: >Kayleigh, >I have a couple of thoughts on the subject of AAer's fears around anything >differing from what they believe to be their " redemption " from alcoholism. >First, notice that the 12 steps, rightly or, in my view, wrongly provide a >strict set of rules to live by. In the interpretation of these " rules " they >can conceivably operate as they always have--go through these motions, and >as if by magic be forgiven for being the same self absorbed uncaring folks >they always had been, yet gain the acceptance of their peers for " working a >good program. " In all fairness I want to say that not every one I met in AA >used this process to stay sick, but an alarming amount did Too, the >meetings I have been to, for the most part have found the ultimate way of >not considering another alternative by asserting that, " if it isn't written >in the book, it is opinion, and we don't care to hear it. " I believe the >12stepers reliance on the Book and its 12 steps is a way for these >folks--just like children--to understand the parameters of their life. To >have to rethink these parameters would mean that their current reality is >not valid, and (forgive the language) every thing they believe to be true is >shit!!!!!!!! > Its true. And so the reactions we have been witnessing are in fact to their dread of being pushed closer to that realisation. Any exposure to evidence that they are wrong is very frightening and deeply painful to them. Too bad! Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 At 03:26 PM 6/8/00 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. It seems fairly simple to me, it's a belief that ABCNEWS/2020 is being so utterly irresponsible, because broadcasting that show is 'costing lives'. They are utterly convinced that AA is the only thing that can save alcoholics' lives, so if a TV program questions this, they see it as a threat to the lives of any 'potential alcoholics' watching. To recycle AA analogy, it's like asking " Do parachutes really save the lives of people who jump out of airplanes Do people really need to pull the rip cord? Some people don't believe so. " Of course it's preposterous that anyone would believe it's safe to jump out of an airplane without a parachute, but the horror to AA's is that many people " try to battle alcoholism without AA. " I would not be surprised if there were people marching with signs in front of ABC headquarters, protesting the show, saying ABC is killing people. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Possibly, one of the most important things to come out of 20/20 is AAers responses. It'll put their stupidity on the world stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 -----Original Message----- >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. >--- >Kayleigh Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and guilt to keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship cohesive and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same effect as if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* triggers the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the brainwashing. He literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 ...proposed an alternative to himself... So instead of lashing out when they propose an alternate method to themselves they fall back on the " I need a meeting " routine? And in the meeting they find validation for their choices. Hmmmm.. I can dig it. Re: Running scared -----Original Message----- >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. >--- >Kayleigh Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and guilt to keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship cohesive and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same effect as if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* triggers the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the brainwashing. He literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Re: Running scared > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >>I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to >alternatives. >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. >>--- >>Kayleigh > >Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and >guilt to >keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship >cohesive >and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same >effect as >if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* >triggers >the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the >brainwashing. He >literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. > >--wally > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 that is is wally, and your analysis was exact same conclusion i had when i was in meetings. one measure if its the language they use and ways they describe themselves. i saw a guy post on 20/20 board last night he said he had a " disease which was his self centered brain " i said you still have it because you think your program is way all alcoholics should follow. but seriously, its that view of a disease which is " self centered " has nothing to with alcoholism and everything to do with AA ego destruction to make you 'humble " and to stop thinking. first thing they say is when you start questioning program is its your " disease talking " , or " sit down and shut up stupid " none of thses ideas they brought with them inot AA, they were injected in meetings. thats why stepprs all talk the exact same way no matter where they are from. why steven hassan hasnt seen them for what they are is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2000 Report Share Posted June 8, 2000 Wally: That's pretty good. So knowing that from time to time people would become anxious about their sobriety the program gives them a quickie solution to the problem in the form of subtle and not so subtle reinforcements, at every meeting, that when this happens they should stop what they're doing and get a booster shot, in the form of a meeting or a chat with their sponsor. Don't take this the wrong way Wally but I think I'm in love with the way your brain works. Re: Running scared -----Original Message----- >..proposed an alternative to himself... > >So instead of lashing out when they propose an alternate method to >themselves they fall back on the " I need a meeting " routine? And in >the meeting they find validation for their choices. > >Hmmmm.. I can dig it. Right. The " I need a meeting " or " I better call my sponsor " routine is part of the patterned response to internal threats, and it all works to reinforce the programming *and* to keep bad thoughts and feelings below the threshhold of consciousness (which, when it works perfectly, is called *serenity*.) But it all goes haywire when the threat is external. In addition to validation for their choices, they get temporary relief from anxiety and guilt in the meeting. The fact that the anxiety and guilt they are getting relief from was implanted by the program in the first place is such a heavy 'bad thought' that they rarely even get a glimmer of it. It's all quite a 'miracle of social engineering', don't you think? ;-) --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Hi Ben, Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's the only choice. The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most powerful weapon mankind can have. I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. Sue > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:07:32 -0400 > >At 03:26 PM 6/8/00 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: > >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > > It seems fairly simple to me, it's a belief that ABCNEWS/2020 is >being so utterly irresponsible, because broadcasting that show is >'costing lives'. They are utterly convinced that AA is the only thing >that can save alcoholics' lives, so if a TV program questions this, >they see it as a threat to the lives of any 'potential alcoholics' >watching. > To recycle AA analogy, it's like asking " Do parachutes really save the >lives of people who jump out of airplanes Do people really need to pull >the rip cord? Some people don't believe so. " Of course it's preposterous >that anyone would believe it's safe to jump out of an airplane without a >parachute, but the horror to AA's is that many people " try to battle >alcoholism without AA. " > I would not be surprised if there were people marching with signs >in front of ABC headquarters, protesting the show, saying ABC is killing >people. > >----- >http://listen.to/benbradley ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 At 16:17 08/06/00 -0700, you wrote: >Kayleigh, >I have a couple of thoughts on the subject of AAer's fears around anything >differing from what they believe to be their " redemption " from alcoholism. >First, notice that the 12 steps, rightly or, in my view, wrongly provide a >strict set of rules to live by. In the interpretation of these " rules " they >can conceivably operate as they always have--go through these motions, and >as if by magic be forgiven for being the same self absorbed uncaring folks >they always had been, yet gain the acceptance of their peers for " working a >good program. " In all fairness I want to say that not every one I met in AA >used this process to stay sick, but an alarming amount did Too, the >meetings I have been to, for the most part have found the ultimate way of >not considering another alternative by asserting that, " if it isn't written >in the book, it is opinion, and we don't care to hear it. " I believe the >12stepers reliance on the Book and its 12 steps is a way for these >folks--just like children--to understand the parameters of their life. To >have to rethink these parameters would mean that their current reality is >not valid, and (forgive the language) every thing they believe to be true is >shit!!!!!!!! > Its true. And so the reactions we have been witnessing are in fact to their dread of being pushed closer to that realisation. Any exposure to evidence that they are wrong is very frightening and deeply painful to them. Too bad! Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Does anybody remember Disney's " Dumbo " ? Big-eared baby elephant has life crisis ... crows convince him that he can fly if he holds a " magic feather " , elephant flies, but feels helpless without his feather, even though its magic is all in his mind. Then another crisis where elephant flies without the feather & is truly free to be himself. As far as the angry, threatened people who have been able to make positive life changes while in AA, I am reminded of sports - as when an athlete learns to get into a certain mindset that allows him/her to perform a given task. Not every frame of mind works for every athlete, and these strategies are to enhance performance, they can't take the place of the athlete's talent and training. However, if an athlete was in that mental zone, readying for a dive, or at the plate, and someone questioned the " truth " of it or its efficacy, I can understand the panic and discomfort that would result. I admit I have a hard time taking away anyone's " feather " - we all tell ourselves stories about what the world is, who we are, and how best to think and to live - I can't tell someone that their way is right or wrong. Also, I find value in many " untruths " - works of fiction, folklore and mythologies of many cultures, etc. I don't ask only what is TRUE before I see a possible benefit. My biggest problem is the " our way is the only way " lie and the " we are not a cult/religion " lie. " Cultish " dynamics occur everywhere from scout troops to corporations to churches, and to me this is not an inherently bad thing IMO. They can get things done, certainly. If AA ever admitted to being a religion, I would have less of a problem. There are people who believe lots of things in this world, and as flawed as I consider the 12step perspective, I am not the thought-police. I just don't want that mindset to be systematically entrenched into our courts, our hospitals and our psyche. That's not freedom of religion - that's a theocracy. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:30:58 GMT > > > Hi Ben, > > Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. > > But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are > EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will > die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not > follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's > the only choice. > The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the > ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. > Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, > is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? > If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of > some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most > powerful weapon mankind can have. > I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I > disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is > much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are > captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. > > Sue > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 That makes real sense, Wally. Yours, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:55:46 -0400 > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to alternatives. >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > >--- > >Kayleigh > >Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and guilt >to >keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship >cohesive >and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same effect as >if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* triggers >the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the brainwashing. >He >literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. > >--wally > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Wally, Thanks for this remarkable analysis of AA " dynamics " . You really know your stuff. . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:51:04 -0400 > > Re: Running scared > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > > > >>I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to > >alternatives. > >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > >>--- > >>Kayleigh > > > >Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and > >guilt to > >keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship > >cohesive > >and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same > >effect as > >if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* > >triggers > >the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the > >brainwashing. He > >literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. > > > >--wally > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Dear Sue, I believe it's that bad, too, and that's why I'm pretty virulent in my attitudes to and attacks upon AA. They'd have loved to see me dead in some gutter, and right now I can't help feeling a certain satisfaction that they aren't getting away with it as easily as they used to. Yours, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:30:58 GMT > > > Hi Ben, > > Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. > > But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are > EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will > die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not > follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's > the only choice. > The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the > ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. > Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, > is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? > If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of > some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most > powerful weapon mankind can have. > I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I > disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is > much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are > captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. > > Sue > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeegroups > >Subject: Re: Running scared > >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:07:32 -0400 > > > >At 03:26 PM 6/8/00 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: > > >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to >alternatives. > >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > > > > It seems fairly simple to me, it's a belief that ABCNEWS/2020 is > >being so utterly irresponsible, because broadcasting that show is > >'costing lives'. They are utterly convinced that AA is the only thing > >that can save alcoholics' lives, so if a TV program questions this, > >they see it as a threat to the lives of any 'potential alcoholics' > >watching. > > To recycle AA analogy, it's like asking " Do parachutes really save >the > >lives of people who jump out of airplanes Do people really need to pull > >the rip cord? Some people don't believe so. " Of course it's preposterous > >that anyone would believe it's safe to jump out of an airplane without a > >parachute, but the horror to AA's is that many people " try to battle > >alcoholism without AA. " > > I would not be surprised if there were people marching with signs > >in front of ABC headquarters, protesting the show, saying ABC is killing > >people. > > > >----- > >http://listen.to/benbradley > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Dear Sue, I believe it's that bad, too, and that's why I'm pretty virulent in my attitudes to and attacks upon AA. They'd have loved to see me dead in some gutter, and right now I can't help feeling a certain satisfaction that they aren't getting away with it as easily as they used to. Yours, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Running scared >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:30:58 GMT > > > Hi Ben, > > Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. > > But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are > EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will > die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not > follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's > the only choice. > The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the > ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. > Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, > is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? > If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of > some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most > powerful weapon mankind can have. > I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I > disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is > much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are > captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. > > Sue > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > >To: 12-step-freeegroups > >Subject: Re: Running scared > >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:07:32 -0400 > > > >At 03:26 PM 6/8/00 -0700, Kayleigh S wrote: > > >I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to >alternatives. > >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. > > > > It seems fairly simple to me, it's a belief that ABCNEWS/2020 is > >being so utterly irresponsible, because broadcasting that show is > >'costing lives'. They are utterly convinced that AA is the only thing > >that can save alcoholics' lives, so if a TV program questions this, > >they see it as a threat to the lives of any 'potential alcoholics' > >watching. > > To recycle AA analogy, it's like asking " Do parachutes really save >the > >lives of people who jump out of airplanes Do people really need to pull > >the rip cord? Some people don't believe so. " Of course it's preposterous > >that anyone would believe it's safe to jump out of an airplane without a > >parachute, but the horror to AA's is that many people " try to battle > >alcoholism without AA. " > > I would not be surprised if there were people marching with signs > >in front of ABC headquarters, protesting the show, saying ABC is killing > >people. > > > >----- > >http://listen.to/benbradley > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Correct me if I'm wrong, but an appropriate phrase would be " Hoisted by their own petard " ++++++++++++++++++ >Dear Sue, right now I can't help feeling a certain satisfaction that they >aren't getting away with it as easily as they used to. > >Yours, > >. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Hi , Sue. Whenever I talk about my perspective, I use a ton of qualifiers--I think, Maybe, I wonder, Perhaps, In my opinion. I mark my ownership of my beliefs. I think we start writing our own personal mythology the first day of life, maybe before. I'm thinking today of context. I'm thinking of Slaughterhouse 5, where Pilgrim becomes unstuck in time. That's what my experience with AA did to me--it took away the context that I *need* to keep me placed in time and space. My personal mythology, my set of symbols. If you understand my symbols, you will understand me. Sue, , you both express compassion for people who are adrift without a clear set of beliefs and values. There is not corresponding compassion on the side of AA. They relish ripping away a person's connections to their family and friends, to their own past. They have a mandate from the government to dismantle people's egos. They get to make the victim say they are grateful. Sadistic is not too strong a word, in my opinion. I guess it's possible that there are people for whom the experience of having their beliefs, their ego, their personal mythology and symbols, systematically destroyed--that there are people for whom this is not a destructive process. In the same way, I guess it's possible that the Holocaust was a hoax, that the moon landing never happened. It's possible but it's so unlikely that I don't want to waste any more of my time entertaining that idea. I'd rather refine my own beliefs. I have to say here: it is not you, me or anyone else on this list that is initiating the process of ego destruction. That process is initiated in AA. It can be reversed--that is the belief that I have pinned my hopes on for the past year. Judith > I admit I have a hard time taking away anyone's " feather " - we all tell > ourselves stories about what the world is, who we are, and how best to think > and to live - I can't tell someone that their way is right or wrong. Also, > I find value in many " untruths " - works of fiction, folklore and mythologies > of many cultures, etc. I don't ask only what is TRUE before I see a > possible benefit. > My biggest problem is the " our way is the only way " lie and the " we are not > a cult/religion " lie. " Cultish " dynamics occur everywhere from scout troops > to corporations to churches, and to me this is not an inherently bad thing > IMO. They can get things done, certainly. If AA ever admitted to being a > religion, I would have less of a problem. There are people who believe lots > of things in this world, and as flawed as I consider the 12step perspective, > I am not the thought-police. I just don't want that mindset to be > systematically entrenched into our courts, our hospitals and our psyche. > That's not freedom of religion - that's a theocracy. > > > >From: " sue styd " > Hi Ben, > > > > Yes, it is extreme. And they probably are marching. > > > > But, here's the scenerio: AA takes a bunch of people who are > > EXTEMELEY irrational at the time and tells that that they will > > die, be institutionalized or go to jail if they do not > > follow their ideas. In this condition... this SEEMS like it's > > the only choice. > > The folks that you are appear to be talking about are the > > ones that CONTINUE to believe that this is their only choice. > > Yes, they are fools. But, what I have a problem with, > > is that... do we label them as fools because they are brainwashed? > > If so, I was once a fool. Perhaps they are victims of > > some very serious brainwashing. To me, this is the most > > powerful weapon mankind can have. > > I guess what I am trying to say is that, as much as I > > disagree with AA and think that those in AA are illogical, it is > > much larger than that. I feel sorry for the folks that are > > captured, yet, THEY ARE the danger. Very twisted. _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2000 Report Share Posted June 9, 2000 Thanks, Doug, and also and dave. I don't think I said anything original, though I admit it is pretty well 'boiled down' ;-) Most of what I believe to be the case about How It Works comes from Ken's book and from the Edmund Cohen book that I have mentioned a couple of times. --wally Re: Running scared >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> > >> > >> > >> >>I have never understood the fear with which AAers react to >> >alternatives. >> >Anybody have any ideas? It really is extreme. >> >>--- >> >>Kayleigh >> > >> >Well, I think it's simply that 'the program' uses a lot of fear and >> >guilt to >> >keep 'bad thoughts' out of consciousness and to keep the fellowship >> >cohesive >> >and insular. To confront an AAer with an alternative has the same >> >effect as >> >if he had proposed an alternative to himself -- it *automatically* >> >triggers >> >the fire alarms that have been planted in his psyche by the >> >brainwashing. He >> >literally panics and can't help but lash out in some way. >> > >> >--wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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