Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

June 6, 2000

Yet I think there are many (some?) believers who cannot accept XA because the

God explicitly described in AA is not the one they believe in.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>What's the measure of intelligence? Intelligence is the ability to

>acquire and apply knowledge.

>

>For some reason, in the US, we equate intelligence with education.

>One would think that there is a correlation, sometimes, between

>education and a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't

>necessarily make education the be all and end all in intelligence.

>

>How does a degree in Information systems, dental hygiene, agriculture

>or accounting correlate to being better able to answer the questions

>of life the universe and everything? They don't. What they do is

>confer a certain level of knowledge in the given field. So why do we

>automatically assume someone holding a degree is more intelligent

>then someone with a high school diploma? I've never understood this.

>

>Does holding a degree in agriculture render someone immune to XA? I

>would think not. But a degree in psychology might or at least you

>might think it would. And yet it doesn't always.

>

>Here's what I think.

>

>I think there are a hell of a lot of intelligent people in XA just

>like there are a lot of ignorant dumbasses. What I believe they both

>have in common is a susceptibility to faith based belief systems.*

>In other words if you believe in God you have an increased risk of

>falling for XA hook line and sinker. The risk grows proportionately

>with the level of your belief in that god and application of that

>belief in your everyday life. That's why I believe, the HP thing is

>so critical. Paramount for the atheist's in the rewms is to get a

>god. If they don't have a god don't worry because they'll help them

>create one for themselves. Only for as long as it takes to wean them

>off that god onto the real god.

>

>If you don't have faith in something outside yourself how can you

>hope to overcome the addiction? At least that's the reasoning that

>seems to come out of XA. (This line of reasoning also contributes

>immeasurably to the defeatist mentality in the rewms but that's

>fodder for another thread.) Except they twist and turn that faith

>into something that is unrecognizably ugly by the time it's all over.

>The AA god is an incredibly anal god who's only purpose is to protect

>AA's from themselves. That in my books is as ugly as it gets.

>

>XA's anti intellectual atmosphere uses that faith to block the

>acquisition and application of knowledge by it's members to keep

>them, not only from discerning the XA rat for what it is but that

>they're an integral part of that rat.

>

>* By way of explanation I see belief in god as a willingness to

>suspend your own critical thinking ability in favor of a belief

>system which acts and reacts based on faith vice cold hard facts.

>This trait is then subverted by XA to further it's own ends which of

>course is XA itself. Please note that I am not making any judgements

>as to the rightness or wrongness of believing in a god.

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 6, 2000

Hi;

Wanted to take a minute to answer this question.

Sometimes I do. Mostly I don't. But here's the weird thing. When I

was drinking the drunker I got the more I believed. But when I was

sober again I was back to the on again off again relationship.

Mostly off.

Weird ain't it?

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

I wonder how many people on this list believe in God?

June 6, 2000

I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God too. I

saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that I know

there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many respects, is

another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching their

interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

Carol S.

Re: AA and suicide

> > >

> > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > > from birth

> > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > > That's

> > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > > who

> > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > > maked a

> > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> > >

> > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> > > if not

> > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> > >

> > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > >

> > > Charlene

> > >

> > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > I think that

> > > Brain empty,

> > > Cheers,

> > > Carol

> > >

> > > ____________________________________________________________________

> > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > --

> > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

> > net.

> > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

> > now:

> > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

> > >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > --

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

> http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

June 6, 2000

I think you are obscuring what is overall a really bad situation for

poor immigrants. ly, it isn't the Border patrolman that are

dying

now, it's the immigrants. Over 300 people die every year trying to

cross the border. Women report being raped by the border patrol.

Untold numbers report being beaten. In fact, was an open policy of

deterence by the border patrol to break limbs of people the caught.

sick, i know. I'm not gonna be defensive and say, " Oh, my god, you're

so right. Those poor Border Patrolmen have it so rough. " Please.

Referencing some threat made against the Border Patrol next to the

actual reality of death, rape, brutality and murder is

well...ridiculous. That's like saying, " yeah, slavery sucks, but what

about all the vicious attacks against the overseers and slave owners? "

Any day you can turn on the tv and find out what a rough job cops

have. I live in LA so I know that it must really suck for them to

have

to plant evidence on people, lie against them in court, shoot people

and leave them to die, have people deported because they have

witnessed police crimes and on and on. If the RAMPARTS scandal hadn't

come out you may say I was exagerating. nope. that's really what

happens.

I would think you might have more to say about the actual Ku Klux

KLan

calling people to the border to murder immigrants. OH MY GOD!!! Isn't

that one of the most heinous things you've ever heard of? And no, not

just an idle threat on the part of the Klan (who we know does more

than threaten). People have already turned up dead and lynched. Yep.

lynched.

Not trying to get down on you, but...geeze, what's up with that. Take

a look around.

k

> > > Oh.... really Mike?

> > > It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure

out

> > that

> > > praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a

bunch

> > of people

> > > who can't realize that their actions are their own

responsibility

> > and not a

> > > God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons

this

> > side of

> > > brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that

cause

> > people to

> > > call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong,

Mike,

> > I like

> > > you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement

flies

> > in

> > the

> > > face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion

which

> > is not

> > > composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA

> > sucks and

> > > most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real

> > conversation.

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: <MikeknapNY@w...>

> > >

> > > > I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more

smarter or

> > > > dumber than the general population.

> >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> > Old school buds here:

> > http://click./1/4057/2/_/4324/_/960320308/

> >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> >

June 6, 2000

Then there's 'street sense'. I don't know exactly how to define it but it

seems to me that it is someone who has fine tuned their ability to read

people, and has a sense and ability to survive whatever life throws at them.

jan

RE: [RE: AA and suicide]

> , this is exactly what I wanted to say! Education does NOT equal

> intelligence. I see education as what the Wizard of Oz gave to the

> Scarecrow: a diploma, a symbol that means something to the person who

earned

> it.

>

> I have a college degree. It took me 21 years to get it. When I was 35, 9

> months after my hysterectomy, I quit my job and went back to school

> full-time to finish. (Think about these numbers: 21 is the " normal " age

for

> someone to graduate college, if they took 4 years. 9 months is the term of

> pregnancy. It's significant to me.)

>

> At that point, I was more depressed, more afraid of suicide, and it

colored

> the way I made choices. I thought, if my greatest health risk right now is

> my own behavior, then why am I so uptight about continuing to be

mainstream?

> Why do I have to stay at a job I don't like? Why don't I do now what I

have

> wanted to do all my life? So I did.

>

> And I admit, I learned some good stuff in college. It's not just the books

> you read or the work you do, it's being in an environment where critical

> thinking and creativity are the most highly prized qualities, followed

> closely by strong discipline.

>

> But see, when I was a kid, even though we were working class and my

parents

> didn't put a whole lot of value on higher education, I grew up with books

> and music and antiques and art. Work was always the highest priority, but

> intelligence was expected.

>

> And I have to say this too. Being in AA, where the values were reversed

from

> my whole life up till then, I began to feel dumb. I began to feel that

> everything I liked about myself was false. And getting my degree, 10 years

> later, was a way of refuting that. A deprogramming exercise.

>

> Judith

>

> > What's the measure of intelligence? Intelligence is the ability to

> > acquire and apply knowledge.

> >

> > For some reason, in the US, we equate intelligence with education.

> > One would think that there is a correlation, sometimes, between

> > education and a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't

> > necessarily make education the be all and end all in intelligence.

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

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>

June 6, 2000

A while back on Talk of the Nation (its on public radio in the afternoon)

they had a show about self-education. I've heard that it was in the 60s and

70s that a lot of occupations began to require a college education. Prior to

that, people would start out at the bottom and experience was more important

than education. That has to explain why some people with no confidence or

leadership ability get into positions where they manage a lot of people.

anyway, I think self education is the thing. You can tell when someone has

an active mind. There are a lot of ways to learn; only one or 2 of them are

ever tested in a formal setting. But you can tell people who are smart,

regardless of what area(s) they are smart in.

Then there are people who are mentally handicapped in some way, but can play

piano without lessons or some other skill. Brains are funny things.

Judith

> Then there's 'street sense'. I don't know exactly how to define it but

it

> seems to me that it is someone who has fine tuned their ability to read

> people, and has a sense and ability to survive whatever life throws at

them.

>

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 6, 2000

I recall hearing a news report yesterday that some guy is offering $10,000

to shoot border patrolmen. That's not very nice either.

jan

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> Hey there Bob,

>

> Biggest Morons this side of brain dead. Really. Not nazis or white

> supremacists. Not rapists. Not the nice guys who bombed more than

> 150,000 Iraqis into oblivion? There's yahoos right now in Arizona

> calling on vigilantes to shoot mexicans down trying to cross the

> border. Perhaps they are more moronic. Nooooo. Not to fat cats who

> cut

> single moms off welfare and try to pass off ketchup as a vegetable in

> school lunches? Remeber that? Were they " this side of brain dead " ?

> How

> about the district attorneys who won't let guys out of prison even

> though they've been exonerated by DNA tests? Or those all american

> boys who beat that gay kid to death. TO DEATH. What about those cops

> in NY shot Amadou Diallo 41 times and said at their trial, " Well, it

> was dark and cold... "

> Hey, there, Bob, what kind of world do you live where AA'ers are the

> MOST moronic? Must be nice...

>

> k

>

> > Oh.... really Mike?

> > It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure out

> that

> > praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a bunch

> of people

> > who can't realize that their actions are their own responsibility

> and not a

> > God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons this

> side of

> > brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that cause

> people to

> > call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong, Mike,

> I like

> > you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement flies

> in

> the

> > face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion which

> is not

> > composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA

> sucks and

> > most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real

> conversation.

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: <MikeknapNY@w...>

> >

> > > I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter or

> > > dumber than the general population.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/2/_/4324/_/960320308/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

June 7, 2000

KM

AA " philosophy " =

" Believe in nothing here but don't worry, the group will give you a moving

joy-base so long as you don't rock the boat (which unfortunately means

" accepting " moral thuggery) "

-- if you follow my drift. Real prayer as you describe it is nothing you

get at the group or leave there. We are all ourselves most truly before

God.

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:38:05 -0000

>

>This is kinda funny. Why would people drawn into AA have less

>education than say, Christians or Jews or Muslims or anybody who

>believes all that hocus pocus in the Bible or Tora or Koran or

>whatever else? I wonder how many people on this list believe in God?

>I do worry that my association with AA will lead me down the path of

>believing in nothing. Whatever is good about AA is because of the

>people involved taking up the steps and principles. Whatever is bad

>is

>probably from the same thing.

> The group I belong to is really into action -- play softball, call

>people up, go out for coffee -- whatever you do don't sit home

>contemplating your navel. The difference from regular life is that

>people understand that folks coming around off of drinking or drug

>problems need help to get involved. You think you can't do anything

>without using so you gotta get some help from your friends to see

>that

>you can have fun and interact with people without mind altering

>substances.

>Don't get me wrong. I'm not a perfect atheist. I get down on my knees

>and express gratitude for the people in my life, etc. But I know that

>no matter how much you pray -- nobody is gonna reach down their hand

>to do a damned thing from the sky. If that was true then what about

>all the starving people in the world. i think for me it's a why of

>being quiet and having some perspective and gratitude..just rambling.

>

>k

>

> >

> > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > Attachment:

> > > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> > > ---------------------------------------------

> > Charlene:

> >

> > Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of

>depression

> > and with my personal background that amazes me.

> >

> > I'm stickin to your story to.

> >

> > Re: AA and suicide

> >

> > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > from birth

> > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > That's

> > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > who

> > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > maked a

> > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> >

> > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> > if not

> > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> >

> > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> >

> > Charlene

> >

> > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > I think that

> > Brain empty,

> > Cheers,

> > Carol

> >

> > ____________________________________________________________________

> > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

> > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

>net.

> > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

>now:

> > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

> >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

>

________________________________________________________________________

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June 7, 2000

, this to me is like quoting the Big Book to someone in 12stepfree.

If I don't accept the Big Book as " gospel " , it loses its use as a source to

convince me of my foolishness.

>

> " The fool hath said in his heart, " There is no God " " , Psalms 14:1, 53:1.

>

>Yours,

>

>.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 7, 2000

Right, Doug. After all, God Must have a penis. What do females have to do

with creation, after all?

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:09:00 GMT

>

>Cool God, shame about the pronoun!

>

>.

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:50:56 -0400

> >

> >I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God too. I

> >saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that I know

> >there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many respects, is

> >another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching their

> >interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

> >

> >Carol S.

> >

> > Re: AA and suicide

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > > > > from birth

> > > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > > > > That's

> > > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > > > > who

> > > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > > > > maked a

> > > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> > > > >

> > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

>beginning,

> > > > > if not

> > > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Charlene

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > > > I think that

> > > > > Brain empty,

> > > > > Cheers,

> > > > > Carol

> > > > >

>____________________________________________________________________

> > > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > > > >

> > > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > --

> > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

> > > > net.

> > > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

> > > > now:

> > > > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

> > > > >

> > > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > --

> > > >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> > > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

> > > >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

> > > http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

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June 7, 2000

Cool God, shame about the pronoun!

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:50:56 -0400

>

>I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God too. I

>saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that I know

>there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many respects, is

>another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching their

>interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

>

>Carol S.

>

> Re: AA and suicide

> > > >

> > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed

> > > > from birth

> > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " .

> > > > That's

> > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person

> > > > who

> > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't

> > > > maked a

> > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!)

> > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> > > >

> > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning,

> > > > if not

> > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> > > >

> > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > > >

> > > > Charlene

> > > >

> > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > > I think that

> > > > Brain empty,

> > > > Cheers,

> > > > Carol

> > > >

> > > > ____________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > --

> > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

> > > net.

> > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

> > > now:

> > > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

> > > >

> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > --

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

> > http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 7, 2000

Spoken like a gentleman, Bob. " It works if . . . " , but let's not mock the

afflicted.

yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:21:10 -0400

>

>Oh.... really Mike?

>It's populated with a bunch of dumbasses who can't even figure out that

>praying is religious and powerlessness is a weakness. It's a bunch of

>people

>who can't realize that their actions are their own responsibility and not a

>God's. Almost without exception, AAers are the biggest morons this side of

>brain-dead. Your statement is the kind of observations that cause people to

>call for your being booted off this list. Don't get me wrong, Mike, I like

>you and I don't want you booted. But this kind of statement flies in the

>face of what is revealed when you engage AAers in discussion which is not

>composed of dumb-ass slogans. Let's be clear about one thing- AA sucks and

>most of it's adherents are too stupid to engage in a real conversation.

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > I don't think that the people who go to AA are any more smarter or

> > dumber than the general population.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 7, 2000

KM

-- we are all still " AA-related " if we feel our reason for being in this

group is " having a problem " . Personally, I extend free choice to NOT having

a problem (unless something's bothering me),

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:36:16 -0000

>

>Hey Janice,

>

> Sorry if I made you defensive. I guess I was trying to make a

>point. I doubt that most people will have a problem with you

>believing

>in God. Most people do. It's not spontaneous, though, like it was

>back

>in the day before people knew how things worked. Back in the day it

>rained and people wondered why. They thought God did it. Now we know

>why it rains so alot more effort has to go into getting people to

>think stuff is happening through some all knowing higher power deal.

> Maybe my point was going towards an idea that even folks in this

>group aren't making all that radical of a departure from AA. It seems

>that if folks relied less on the whole God or Higher Power deal in AA

>then perhaps the human beings in the groups would have to be more

>accountable for their actions.

>

>sorry for rambling

>

>k

>

> > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > > > Attachment:

> > > > > MIME Type: multipart/alternative

> > > > > ---------------------------------------------

> > > > Charlene:

> > > >

> > > > Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of

> > > depression

> > > > and with my personal background that amazes me.

> > > >

> > > > I'm stickin to your story to.

> > > >

> > > > Re: AA and suicide

> > > >

> > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

>brainwashed

> > > > from birth

> > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

> " God " .

> > > > That's

> > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

>person

> > > > who

> > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

>doesn't

> > > > maked a

> > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

>disbelief!!!)

> > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

> > > >

> > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

>beginning,

> > > > if not

> > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> > > >

> > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> > > >

> > > > Charlene

> > > >

> > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> > > > I think that

> > > > Brain empty,

> > > > Cheers,

> > > > Carol

> > > >

>____________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

> > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> > > >

> > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > > net.

> > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com

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> > > >

> > >

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> > > --

> > >

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>--

> > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

> > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

> > >

>

________________________________________________________________________

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June 7, 2000

Disagree -- this group is substantially opposed to AA/NA/stepNazis Anon, and

to these doubtful bodies the concept of " god " /HP is utterly central. It is

a therefore a prime concern of the group to refer debate to the discursive

" god zone " (theology, theophany, etc.),

.

>From: MikeknapNY@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:01:25 -0400 (EDT)

>

>Jan:

>

>This group is 12 step` free which is not the same thing at all of being

>God free. I am fairly new on the list, (although sometimes I feel I've

>been here a lot longer) 'I'm assuming and I hope correctly, that people

>on this list respect others religious beliefs, or lack of religious

>beliefs. I don't believe atheism is one of the requirements of the list.

>

>I have made it clear that I believe in God, in fact one thing that

>bothered me about 12 step groups is there is quite a lot of religion

>bashing, so many of the supposedly " spiritual giants " , have no problem

>attacking someone whose belief in God is more conventional than the

>Deism or Theism that has become in a lot of places, the 12 step

>religion!

>

>Just my opinion Jan, but whatever ones belief in God is or isn't, is

>about as important to this group as whether a member is a Liberal or

>Conservative.

>

>Originally Mikena@...

>

><< Message5.txt >>

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June 7, 2000

Then at least you wouldn't be a tosser.

.

>From: MikeknapNY@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:07:35 -0400 (EDT)

>

>So Joe, are you saying that people who believe in God are somehow less

>intelligent or more naive than the atheist.

>

>And Joe let me tell you something. If anyone wants to throw me off the

>list because I said there is nothing wrong in believing in God than I

>would consider it a badge of honor to be tossed.

>

>What an intolerant tirade!!

>

>Originally Mikena@...

>

><< Message5.txt >>

________________________________________________________________________

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June 7, 2000

Dear ,

" The risk grows proportionately with the level of your belief in that god

and application of that belief in your everyday life. " -- you say you are

not making judgement as to the rightness of belief in " god " , but if what you

say in the above sentence is the case then it's not a good thing to be

religiously susceptible.

" The AA god is an incredibly anal god who's only purpose is to protect

AA's from themselves " -- and him/herself? Good deal?

" The fool hath said in his heart, " There is no God " " , Psalms 14:1, 53:1.

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:28:41 -0500