Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

June 7, 2000

Kaleigh and everyone,

I don't nothing about the Warren court. Who cares about a bunch of

old guys enterpreting laws that were set to safeguard the sanctity of

private property over humanity. It's all part of a superstructure

that

was set up to promote the dictatorship of the dominant class over the

broad masses of people.

There's tons of democracy in this country if you control the means of

production. If not, try excercising all those " rights " on an empty

stomach. There are two basic rights under capitalism (not making it

up-everybody knows what capitalism is) -- the freedom exploit and the

freedom to be exploited. I think the Clash said it best, " you have

the

right to free speech --provided you don't actually try it. " Ever been

at a demo and had your ass beat by the cops for holding up a sign? I

have.

As for this list. Isn't one of the huge criticisms of AA here that

people aren't alowed to criticize it? I think the debate here is what

makes this list vibrant.

Maybe atheists come across as arrogant. Gallileo probably came off as

a little arrogant. Who cares. Atheists don't dominant the world. Not

a

whole lot of attrocities being carried out in the name of Atheism.

The

quest for truth is messy sometimes. If people weren't game to endure

a

little mess than we'd probably still be groping around the caves.

k

> >One of the most futile efforts is for a believer is to convince an

atheist

> >there is a God, and for an atheist to convince a believer there is

no God.

> >

> >Understandably, members of both groups resent it when someone of

the other

> >group suggests books etc. that will help the other person " see the

light! "

> >

> >I have always been bothered by the arrogance of *some* atheists,

who project

> >a patronizing attitude towards believers and are certain beyond a

doubt that

> > " these superstitious religious fools just aren't bright enough to

> >understand. " Of course, it is well documented that certain

fundamentalist

> >religions have as their goal to " open up the minds " of the

nonbelievers.

> >

> >I Agree with whoever said that many religious people do not let

their

> >religion get in the way of what they see as a violation of the

" establishment

> >of religion classes, " or anything else that tries to knock down

that wall of

> >separation.

> >

> >I'm just thinking back to the good old days of the Warren Court.

Ah! What a

> >time it was for liberals who wanted to incorporate the Bill of

Rights visa

> >via the fourteenth amendment, and the marvelous decisions usually

on the side

> >of liberty and freedom and against tyranny and repression.

> >

> >From all the reading I have done on the court, it is generally

assumed that

> >the most important person was n, appointed by

President

> >Eisenhower who also appointed Earl Warren. In later years

Eisenhower said

> >that Warren and n were his 2 BIGGEST MISTAKES!

> >

> >In fact, when n retired from the court, the

conservative Bible

> > " National Review " dedicated an issue to n. The gist of it

was

that

> >Brennan by the way he used the court to bring about change in the

late 50s

> >and sixties and even in later years as it turned increasingly

conservative,

> >he was able to hold his own because he was likable, trustworthy

and

a

> >consensus builder.

> >

> >Why the buildup for Brennan? On just about every issue he

sided with

> >the people against government. He expanded freedom. In a case

called Grisworld

> > V. Connecticut, he stuck down a law that made it illegal to sell

condoms in

> >Connecticut even to married people. He was in the majority in Roe

V. Wade. In

> >his last years he come to the conclusion that all speech must be

protected,

> >even pornography.

> >

> >Oh, a very important thing about the man. He was a devout Roman

Catholic who

> >went to mass and communion every day. It is obvious from the kind

of

> >decisions he wrote, that his religion, especially the Catholic

rigidity over

> >abortion and birth control did not effect how he acted when he put

on his

> >robes.

> >

> >So who knows. Maybe when he put on his robes he tapped into some

secret power

> >that removed his " gullibility " about religion so he could be more

in line

> >with the intelligentsia who find it perfectly acceptable to mock

someone's

> >religious beliefs.

> >

> >There are two areas, religion and politics that can put up a wall

between

> >members on the list, who probably agree with each other on most

issues.

> >

> >In the case of religion and politics being brought into a group

where

> >everyone is at different stages of growth and is looking for

consensus not

> >debates on something that is unprovable anyway, the AA slogan

" Live and let

> >live " could not be more appropriate.

> >

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

> >Everyday Is Kid's Day

> >Dad Only Has One

> >Click Here To Make It Special

> >http://click./1/5038/2/_/4324/_/960408790/

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

> >

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Before you buy.

June 7, 2000

I don't understand how I did that. Please let me know what you mean so I do

not risk being unduly cruel.

----- Original Message -----

but let's not mock the afflicted.

June 7, 2000

-----Original Message-----

>Stalin was an athiest - killed about a few million people. Hitler was an

>athiest even though he said he believed in God till he was in full power -

6

>million Jewish people plus 5 million others he deemed inferior. What about

>Pol Pot? (Is that his name) - killed some 2 million in Cambodia.

>

>jan

[mucho quotation snipped]

Yah, but...

None of these three was a skeptical rationalist. All were 'True Believers'

(*) in the very worst sense of the phrase. To me, and surely to a lot of

other 'atheists' as well, a commitment to reason and truth is much more

important than any particular opinion about whether there is or isn't a god.

--wally

(*) [or perhaps opportunistic psychopaths pretending to be True Believers --

who knows?]

June 7, 2000

Hey there,

I figured you might say something like that. How do you know Hitler

was an atheist? People who believe in God don't do bad things? The

point isn't to get into some battle over what ideology has killed

more

people. One, cause you'd lose and two, cause it's skirting the point.

I mean this is a Christian Country. It's on our money, we say it in

the pledge of allegience and on and on. Few could dispute this.

Correct. This one christian nation alone was built on the genocide of

naive peoples. Not just a few, but whole nations are gone. Millions

of

Africans died in the slave trade and millions more were enslaved

literally like animals. Southern Slaveocracy. All Christians.

Which nation is the only nation to drop an atom bomb on another

nation? If you guessed this one you'd be correct. How about the 2

million Vietnamese we shot and bombed and napalmed to death? We're

not

even getting into dirty wars in El salvador, Nicaragua, etc

-- supported by this government and the christians or god believing

people in it. Not even talking about economic policies exported

through organizations like the IMF and World bank literally squeezing

people to death with harsh austerity programs designed to make

American businesmen rich while the poor suffer.

Peruvian fisheries in the main go towards the export of cat food so

Peru can finance its debt while people starve and die from treatable

diseases like cholera and the like.

I'm not some anti-Christian. I'm not against people having religion.

Objectively, regardless of what you or I believe -- there aint no

God. I didn't create that fact. It just is. I'm sorry if this reality

upsets you so.

I think you make a good point about Hitler killing jews. Maybe if we

came out of the clouds and recognized that we (down here) have to

take

responsablity for what goes on down here -- we could have world where

people don't sit by and watch as jews get exterminated or rainforests

get chopped down or women get raped or people die from drinking or

using drugs and the like. You don't even have to stop being a

christian or whatever. Believe in God all you want. Believe in the

Tooth Fairy for all I care, but take some responsability. Do

something.

> > > >One of the most futile efforts is for a believer is to

convince

an

> > atheist

> > > >there is a God, and for an atheist to convince a believer

there

is

> > no God.

> > > >

> > > >Understandably, members of both groups resent it when someone

of

> > the other

> > > >group suggests books etc. that will help the other person " see

the

> > light! "

> > > >

> > > >I have always been bothered by the arrogance of *some*

atheists,

> > who project

> > > >a patronizing attitude towards believers and are certain

beyond

a

> > doubt that

> > > > " these superstitious religious fools just aren't bright enough

to

> > > >understand. " Of course, it is well documented that certain

> > fundamentalist

> > > >religions have as their goal to " open up the minds " of the

> > nonbelievers.

> > > >

> > > >I Agree with whoever said that many religious people do not let

> > their

> > > >religion get in the way of what they see as a violation of the

> > " establishment

> > > >of religion classes, " or anything else that tries to knock down

> > that wall of

> > > >separation.

> > > >

> > > >I'm just thinking back to the good old days of the Warren

Court.

> > Ah! What a

> > > >time it was for liberals who wanted to incorporate the Bill of

> > Rights visa

> > > >via the fourteenth amendment, and the marvelous decisions

usually

> > on the side

> > > >of liberty and freedom and against tyranny and repression.

> > > >

> > > >From all the reading I have done on the court, it is generally

> > assumed that

> > > >the most important person was n, appointed by

> > President

> > > >Eisenhower who also appointed Earl Warren. In later years

> > Eisenhower said

> > > >that Warren and n were his 2 BIGGEST MISTAKES!

> > > >

> > > >In fact, when n retired from the court, the

> > conservative Bible

> > > > " National Review " dedicated an issue to n. The gist of it

> > was

> > that

> > > >Brennan by the way he used the court to bring about change in

the

> > late 50s

> > > >and sixties and even in later years as it turned increasingly

> > conservative,

> > > >he was able to hold his own because he was likable, trustworthy

> > and

> > a

> > > >consensus builder.

> > > >

> > > >Why the buildup for Brennan? On just about every issue

he

> > sided with

> > > >the people against government. He expanded freedom. In a case

> > called Grisworld

> > > > V. Connecticut, he stuck down a law that made it illegal to

sell

> > condoms in

> > > >Connecticut even to married people. He was in the majority in

Roe

> > V. Wade. In

> > > >his last years he come to the conclusion that all speech must

be

> > protected,

> > > >even pornography.

> > > >

> > > >Oh, a very important thing about the man. He was a devout Roman

> > Catholic who

> > > >went to mass and communion every day. It is obvious from the

kind

> > of

> > > >decisions he wrote, that his religion, especially the Catholic

> > rigidity over

> > > >abortion and birth control did not effect how he acted when he

put

> > on his

> > > >robes.

> > > >

> > > >So who knows. Maybe when he put on his robes he tapped into

some

> > secret power

> > > >that removed his " gullibility " about religion so he could be

more

> > in line

> > > >with the intelligentsia who find it perfectly acceptable to

mock

> > someone's

> > > >religious beliefs.

> > > >

> > > >There are two areas, religion and politics that can put up a

wall

> > between

> > > >members on the list, who probably agree with each other on most

> > issues.

> > > >

> > > >In the case of religion and politics being brought into a group

> > where

> > > >everyone is at different stages of growth and is looking for

> > consensus not

> > > >debates on something that is unprovable anyway, the AA slogan

> > " Live and let

> > > >live " could not be more appropriate.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > ---

> > > >Everyday Is Kid's Day

> > > >Dad Only Has One

> > > >Click Here To Make It Special

> > > >http://click./1/5038/2/_/4324/_/960408790/

> > >

> >

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > ---

> > > >

> > >

> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > > Before you buy.

> >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> > Before you walk down the aisle, learn to run your financial life.

> > Get planning resources from GE Center for Financial Learning

> > Free online courses to guide your future.

> > http://click./1/4637/2/_/4324/_/960420025/

> >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> >

June 7, 2000

Stalin was an athiest - killed about a few million people. Hitler was an

athiest even though he said he believed in God till he was in full power - 6

million Jewish people plus 5 million others he deemed inferior. What about

Pol Pot? (Is that his name) - killed some 2 million in Cambodia.

jan

Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> Kaleigh and everyone,

>

> I don't nothing about the Warren court. Who cares about a bunch of

> old guys enterpreting laws that were set to safeguard the sanctity of

> private property over humanity. It's all part of a superstructure

> that

> was set up to promote the dictatorship of the dominant class over the

> broad masses of people.

> There's tons of democracy in this country if you control the means of

> production. If not, try excercising all those " rights " on an empty

> stomach. There are two basic rights under capitalism (not making it

> up-everybody knows what capitalism is) -- the freedom exploit and the

> freedom to be exploited. I think the Clash said it best, " you have

> the

> right to free speech --provided you don't actually try it. " Ever been

> at a demo and had your ass beat by the cops for holding up a sign? I

> have.

> As for this list. Isn't one of the huge criticisms of AA here that

> people aren't alowed to criticize it? I think the debate here is what

> makes this list vibrant.

> Maybe atheists come across as arrogant. Gallileo probably came off as

> a little arrogant. Who cares. Atheists don't dominant the world. Not

> a

> whole lot of attrocities being carried out in the name of Atheism.

> The

> quest for truth is messy sometimes. If people weren't game to endure

> a

> little mess than we'd probably still be groping around the caves.

>

> k

>

> > >One of the most futile efforts is for a believer is to convince an

> atheist

> > >there is a God, and for an atheist to convince a believer there is

> no God.

> > >

> > >Understandably, members of both groups resent it when someone of

> the other

> > >group suggests books etc. that will help the other person " see the

> light! "

> > >

> > >I have always been bothered by the arrogance of *some* atheists,

> who project

> > >a patronizing attitude towards believers and are certain beyond a

> doubt that

> > > " these superstitious religious fools just aren't bright enough to

> > >understand. " Of course, it is well documented that certain

> fundamentalist

> > >religions have as their goal to " open up the minds " of the

> nonbelievers.

> > >

> > >I Agree with whoever said that many religious people do not let

> their

> > >religion get in the way of what they see as a violation of the

> " establishment

> > >of religion classes, " or anything else that tries to knock down

> that wall of

> > >separation.

> > >

> > >I'm just thinking back to the good old days of the Warren Court.

> Ah! What a

> > >time it was for liberals who wanted to incorporate the Bill of

> Rights visa

> > >via the fourteenth amendment, and the marvelous decisions usually

> on the side

> > >of liberty and freedom and against tyranny and repression.

> > >

> > >From all the reading I have done on the court, it is generally

> assumed that

> > >the most important person was n, appointed by

> President

> > >Eisenhower who also appointed Earl Warren. In later years

> Eisenhower said

> > >that Warren and n were his 2 BIGGEST MISTAKES!

> > >

> > >In fact, when n retired from the court, the

> conservative Bible

> > > " National Review " dedicated an issue to n. The gist of it

> was

> that

> > >Brennan by the way he used the court to bring about change in the

> late 50s

> > >and sixties and even in later years as it turned increasingly

> conservative,

> > >he was able to hold his own because he was likable, trustworthy

> and

> a

> > >consensus builder.

> > >

> > >Why the buildup for Brennan? On just about every issue he

> sided with

> > >the people against government. He expanded freedom. In a case

> called Grisworld

> > > V. Connecticut, he stuck down a law that made it illegal to sell

> condoms in

> > >Connecticut even to married people. He was in the majority in Roe

> V. Wade. In

> > >his last years he come to the conclusion that all speech must be

> protected,

> > >even pornography.

> > >

> > >Oh, a very important thing about the man. He was a devout Roman

> Catholic who

> > >went to mass and communion every day. It is obvious from the kind

> of

> > >decisions he wrote, that his religion, especially the Catholic

> rigidity over

> > >abortion and birth control did not effect how he acted when he put

> on his

> > >robes.

> > >

> > >So who knows. Maybe when he put on his robes he tapped into some

> secret power

> > >that removed his " gullibility " about religion so he could be more

> in line

> > >with the intelligentsia who find it perfectly acceptable to mock

> someone's

> > >religious beliefs.

> > >

> > >There are two areas, religion and politics that can put up a wall

> between

> > >members on the list, who probably agree with each other on most

> issues.

> > >

> > >In the case of religion and politics being brought into a group

> where

> > >everyone is at different stages of growth and is looking for

> consensus not

> > >debates on something that is unprovable anyway, the AA slogan

> " Live and let

> > >live " could not be more appropriate.

> > >

> >

> >---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---

> > >Everyday Is Kid's Day

> > >Dad Only Has One

> > >Click Here To Make It Special

> > >http://click./1/5038/2/_/4324/_/960408790/

> >

> >---------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---

> > >

> >

> > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > Before you buy.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Before you walk down the aisle, learn to run your financial life.

> Get planning resources from GE Center for Financial Learning

> Free online courses to guide your future.

> http://click./1/4637/2/_/4324/_/960420025/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

June 7, 2000

Bob

-- No more than a possibly misguided attempt at being charitable towards

lower-league zombies.

Best wishes,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:48:53 -0400

>

>I don't understand how I did that. Please let me know what you mean so I do

>not risk being unduly cruel.

>----- Original Message -----

>

>but let's not mock the afflicted.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 7, 2000

Kiki

-- G. B. Shaw made a good point when he said " Christianity hasn't failed.

It's never been tried " . Mark Twain does it for me on satires of God-fearin'

Americans whose biggest kick is killing one another -- Grangefords, et al.,

Bricksville, etc. You're blaming the wrong people if you believe real

Christians (as opposed to whited sepulchres) are behind the abominations you

cite.

Yours across the water,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:59:57 -0000

>

>Hey there,

>

>I figured you might say something like that. How do you know Hitler

>was an atheist? People who believe in God don't do bad things? The

>point isn't to get into some battle over what ideology has killed

>more

>people. One, cause you'd lose and two, cause it's skirting the point.

>

>I mean this is a Christian Country. It's on our money, we say it in

>the pledge of allegience and on and on. Few could dispute this.

>Correct. This one christian nation alone was built on the genocide of

>naive peoples. Not just a few, but whole nations are gone. Millions

>of

>Africans died in the slave trade and millions more were enslaved

>literally like animals. Southern Slaveocracy. All Christians.

>

>Which nation is the only nation to drop an atom bomb on another

>nation? If you guessed this one you'd be correct. How about the 2

>million Vietnamese we shot and bombed and napalmed to death? We're

>not

>even getting into dirty wars in El salvador, Nicaragua, etc

>-- supported by this government and the christians or god believing

>people in it. Not even talking about economic policies exported

>through organizations like the IMF and World bank literally squeezing

>people to death with harsh austerity programs designed to make

>American businesmen rich while the poor suffer.

>

>Peruvian fisheries in the main go towards the export of cat food so

>Peru can finance its debt while people starve and die from treatable

>diseases like cholera and the like.

>

>I'm not some anti-Christian. I'm not against people having religion.

>Objectively, regardless of what you or I believe -- there aint no

>God. I didn't create that fact. It just is. I'm sorry if this reality

>upsets you so.

>I think you make a good point about Hitler killing jews. Maybe if we

>came out of the clouds and recognized that we (down here) have to

>take

>responsablity for what goes on down here -- we could have world where

>people don't sit by and watch as jews get exterminated or rainforests

>get chopped down or women get raped or people die from drinking or

>using drugs and the like. You don't even have to stop being a

>christian or whatever. Believe in God all you want. Believe in the

>Tooth Fairy for all I care, but take some responsability. Do

>something.

>

> > > > >One of the most futile efforts is for a believer is to

>convince

>an

> > > atheist

> > > > >there is a God, and for an atheist to convince a believer

>there

>is

> > > no God.

> > > > >

> > > > >Understandably, members of both groups resent it when someone

>of

> > > the other

> > > > >group suggests books etc. that will help the other person " see

>the

> > > light! "

> > > > >

> > > > >I have always been bothered by the arrogance of *some*

>atheists,

> > > who project

> > > > >a patronizing attitude towards believers and are certain

>beyond

>a

> > > doubt that

> > > > > " these superstitious religious fools just aren't bright enough

>to

> > > > >understand. " Of course, it is well documented that certain

> > > fundamentalist

> > > > >religions have as their goal to " open up the minds " of the

> > > nonbelievers.

> > > > >

> > > > >I Agree with whoever said that many religious people do not let

> > > their

> > > > >religion get in the way of what they see as a violation of the

> > > " establishment

> > > > >of religion classes, " or anything else that tries to knock down

> > > that wall of

> > > > >separation.

> > > > >

> > > > >I'm just thinking back to the good old days of the Warren

>Court.

> > > Ah! What a

> > > > >time it was for liberals who wanted to incorporate the Bill of

> > > Rights visa

> > > > >via the fourteenth amendment, and the marvelous decisions

>usually

> > > on the side

> > > > >of liberty and freedom and against tyranny and repression.

> > > > >

> > > > >From all the reading I have done on the court, it is generally

> > > assumed that

> > > > >the most important person was n, appointed by

> > > President

> > > > >Eisenhower who also appointed Earl Warren. In later years

> > > Eisenhower said

> > > > >that Warren and n were his 2 BIGGEST MISTAKES!

> > > > >

> > > > >In fact, when n retired from the court, the

> > > conservative Bible

> > > > > " National Review " dedicated an issue to n. The gist of it

> > > was

> > > that

> > > > >Brennan by the way he used the court to bring about change in

>the

> > > late 50s

> > > > >and sixties and even in later years as it turned increasingly

> > > conservative,

> > > > >he was able to hold his own because he was likable, trustworthy

> > > and

> > > a

> > > > >consensus builder.

> > > > >

> > > > >Why the buildup for Brennan? On just about every issue

>he

> > > sided with

> > > > >the people against government. He expanded freedom. In a case

> > > called Grisworld

> > > > > V. Connecticut, he stuck down a law that made it illegal to

>sell

> > > condoms in

> > > > >Connecticut even to married people. He was in the majority in

>Roe

> > > V. Wade. In

> > > > >his last years he come to the conclusion that all speech must

>be

> > > protected,

> > > > >even pornography.

> > > > >

> > > > >Oh, a very important thing about the man. He was a devout Roman

> > > Catholic who

> > > > >went to mass and communion every day. It is obvious from the

>kind

> > > of

> > > > >decisions he wrote, that his religion, especially the Catholic

> > > rigidity over

> > > > >abortion and birth control did not effect how he acted when he

>put

> > > on his

> > > > >robes.

> > > > >

> > > > >So who knows. Maybe when he put on his robes he tapped into

>some

> > > secret power

> > > > >that removed his " gullibility " about religion so he could be

>more

> > > in line

> > > > >with the intelligentsia who find it perfectly acceptable to

>mock

> > > someone's

> > > > >religious beliefs.

> > > > >

> > > > >There are two areas, religion and politics that can put up a

>wall

> > > between

> > > > >members on the list, who probably agree with each other on most

> > > issues.

> > > > >

> > > > >In the case of religion and politics being brought into a group

> > > where

> > > > >everyone is at different stages of growth and is looking for

> > > consensus not

> > > > >debates on something that is unprovable anyway, the AA slogan

> > > " Live and let

> > > > >live " could not be more appropriate.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > ---

> > > > >Everyday Is Kid's Day

> > > > >Dad Only Has One

> > > > >Click Here To Make It Special

> > > > >http://click./1/5038/2/_/4324/_/960408790/

> > > >

> > >

> >---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > ---

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > > > Before you buy.

> > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

> > > Before you walk down the aisle, learn to run your financial life.

> > > Get planning resources from GE Center for Financial Learning

> > > Free online courses to guide your future.

> > > http://click./1/4637/2/_/4324/_/960420025/

> > >

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

> > >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 7, 2000

, I believe that historically, for a long time, people believed that men

did all the work and women were viewed as a sort of mechanical incubator. That

view may persist among some today. I don't think 's remark is entirely

gratuitous.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Sorry, , but the profundity of your remark does not alleviate its

>gratuitousness. Each of us is her/himself a statement of the obvious in

>respect of what females have to do with creation.

>

>.

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:44:18 EDT

>>

>>Right, Doug. After all, God Must have a penis. What do females have to do

>>with creation, after all?

>>

>> >

>> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>> >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:09:00 GMT

>> >

>> >Cool God, shame about the pronoun!

>> >

>> >.

>> >

>> > >

>> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>> > >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>> > >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:50:56 -0400

>> > >

>> > >I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God too.

>>I

>> > >saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that I

>>know

>> > >there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many respects,

>>is

>> > >another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching their

>> > >interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

>> > >

>> > >Carol S.

>> > >

>> > > Re: AA and suicide

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

>>brainwashed

>> > > > > > from birth

>> > > > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

>> " God " .

>> > > > > > That's

>> > > > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

>>person

>> > > > > > who

>> > > > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

>>doesn't

>> > > > > > maked a

>> > > > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

>>disbelief!!!)

>> > > > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists.

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

>> >beginning,

>> > > > > > if not

>> > > > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > Charlene

>> > > > > >

>> > > > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

>> > > > > > I think that

>> > > > > > Brain empty,

>> > > > > > Cheers,

>> > > > > > Carol

>> > > > > >

>> >____________________________________________________________________

>> > > > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

>> > > > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

>> > > > > >

>> > > > >

>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > > --

>> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

>> > > > > net.

>> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com

>>Install

>> > > > > now:

>> > > > > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

>> > > > > >

>> > > > >

>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > > --

>> > > > >

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

>> > > > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

>> > > > >

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > >

>> > > >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > > Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

>> > > > http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

>> > > >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> > > >

>> > >

>> >

>> >________________________________________________________________________

>> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>> >

>>

>>________________________________________________________________________

>>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>>

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

>more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long Distance

>rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

>http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960416431/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 7, 2000

I really don't see what I said that provoked this response. I'm not against

debate, I'm just engaging in it.

And I doubt that Bill Gates is applauding the U.S.A.'s particular brand of

capitalism right now, today.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Kaleigh and everyone,

>

>I don't nothing about the Warren court. Who cares about a bunch of

>old guys enterpreting laws that were set to safeguard the sanctity of

>private property over humanity. It's all part of a superstructure

>that

>was set up to promote the dictatorship of the dominant class over the

>broad masses of people.

>There's tons of democracy in this country if you control the means of

>production. If not, try excercising all those " rights " on an empty

>stomach. There are two basic rights under capitalism (not making it

>up-everybody knows what capitalism is) -- the freedom exploit and the

>freedom to be exploited. I think the Clash said it best, " you have

>the

>right to free speech --provided you don't actually try it. " Ever been

>at a demo and had your ass beat by the cops for holding up a sign? I

>have.

>As for this list. Isn't one of the huge criticisms of AA here that

>people aren't alowed to criticize it? I think the debate here is what

>makes this list vibrant.

>Maybe atheists come across as arrogant. Gallileo probably came off as

>a little arrogant. Who cares. Atheists don't dominant the world. Not

>a

>whole lot of attrocities being carried out in the name of Atheism.

>The

>quest for truth is messy sometimes. If people weren't game to endure

>a

>little mess than we'd probably still be groping around the caves.

>

>k

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 8, 2000

I read a book called True Believers, about a guy who went underground to

join a cult. This cult believed a space ship was going to come at a specific

time and place, and fly them to an intergalactic Eden. He said that, after

the specified time and place failed to attract the expected ship, the stakes

of believing increased. Those who chose to stay became more fanatic, as they

needed to invest more energy in keeping the lie alive. They needed to

support each other, and insulate themselves from the heathens who would deny

their beliefs.

sound familiar?

Judith

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:45:57 EDT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> My God have any of you guys read the message boards on the 20/20 website?

The

> aa's are going crazy som how they thought that show was in there favor.

very

> scary

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 8, 2000

Well, as the Fuhrer said (more or less) " the bigger the lie the more suckers

will fall for it " .

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:29:08 -0700 (PDT)

>

>I read a book called True Believers, about a guy who went underground to

>join a cult. This cult believed a space ship was going to come at a

>specific

>time and place, and fly them to an intergalactic Eden. He said that, after

>the specified time and place failed to attract the expected ship, the

>stakes

>of believing increased. Those who chose to stay became more fanatic, as

>they

>needed to invest more energy in keeping the lie alive. They needed to

>support each other, and insulate themselves from the heathens who would

>deny

>their beliefs.

>

>sound familiar?

>

>Judith

>

>On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:45:57 EDT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> > My God have any of you guys read the message boards on the 20/20

>website?

>The

> > aa's are going crazy som how they thought that show was in there favor.

>very

> > scary

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

>Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 8, 2000

Dear me, . You are reminding me of a job I once had in which, when I

tried to be a lawyer, I was accused of not being a lady. This was only 15 years

ago, I hope your P.M.'s wife has not run into the same thing. (I hope I am not

displaying my ignorance of what the British Commonwealth currently consists of,

but chances are I am.)

Your mail is very delicately worded and correspondingly obscure. I don't think

we have an intractable agreement, and where do your parents come into it?

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Kayleigh

>

>I should never wish to have any intractable disagreement with a lady, or

>with a woman for that matter. A lot of us human beings have had what might

>be fairly described as bad deals. Men are, of course, at a disadvantage in

>the present climate of debate when discussing " sexism " . I rarely venture a

>comment, though my satirical cap is doffed in the topic's direction when

>working with images of my parents at

>

>http://geocities.com/bouglaf/wittgenstein.html#B

>

>Best wishes,

>

>.

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:38:48 -0700

>>

>>, I believe that historically, for a long time, people believed that

>>men did all the work and women were viewed as a sort of mechanical

>>incubator. That view may persist among some today. I don't think

>>'s remark is entirely gratuitous.

>>---

>>Kayleigh

>>

>> Zz

>> zZ

>> |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

>> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

>> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>>

>> >Sorry, , but the profundity of your remark does not alleviate

>>its

>> >gratuitousness. Each of us is her/himself a statement of the obvious in

>> >respect of what females have to do with creation.

>> >

>> >.

>> >

>> >>

>> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>> >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:44:18 EDT

>> >>

>> >>Right, Doug. After all, God Must have a penis. What do females have to

>>do

>> >>with creation, after all?

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >> >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>> >> >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:09:00 GMT

>> >> >

>> >> >Cool God, shame about the pronoun!

>> >> >

>> >> >.

>> >> >

>> >> > >

>> >> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> >> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>> >> > >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>> >> > >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:50:56 -0400

>> >> > >

>> >> > >I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God

>>too.

>> >>I

>> >> > >saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that I

>> >>know

>> >> > >there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many

>>respects,

>> >>is

>> >> > >another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching

>>their

>> >> > >interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

>> >> > >

>> >> > >Carol S.

>> >> > >

>> >> > > Re: AA and suicide

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

>> >>brainwashed

>> >> > > > > > from birth

>> >> > > > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a

>> >> " God " .

>> >> > > > > > That's

>> >> > > > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a

>> >>person

>> >> > > > > > who

>> >> > > > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

>> >>doesn't

>> >> > > > > > maked a

>> >> > > > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

>> >>disbelief!!!)

>> >> > > > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with

>>theists.

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

>> >> >beginning,

>> >> > > > > > if not

>> >> > > > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > > > Charlene

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

>> >> > > > > > I think that

>> >> > > > > > Brain empty,

>> >> > > > > > Cheers,

>> >> > > > > > Carol

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> >____________________________________________________________________

>> >> > > > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

>> >> > > > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > >

>> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > > > --

>> >> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on

>>the

>> >> > > > > net.

>> >> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com

>> >>Install

>> >> > > > > now:

>> >> > > > > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

>> >> > > > > >

>> >> > > > >

>> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > > > --

>> >> > > > >

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

>> >> > > > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

>> >> > > > >

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > > >

>> >> > > >

>> >>

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > > Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

>> >> > > > http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

>> >> > > >

>> >>

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >> > > >

>> >> > >

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >________________________________________________________________________

>> >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>>http://www.hotmail.com

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >>________________________________________________________________________

>> >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>> >>

>> >

>> >________________________________________________________________________

>> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

>> >more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

>>Distance

>> >rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

>> >http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960416431/

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>>Before you buy.

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

>more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long Distance

>rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

>http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960463640/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 8, 2000

Dear Kayleigh

I'm not sure I follow you on lawyers and ladies. You certainly seem like

one of the latter, if it's still possible to offer that as a compliment (!).

My parents are the 1950s couple in the picture at the URL I gave. I'm

amused to think of the " feminism avant la lettre " Mum could display, but

spirited women have done so anyway throughout the ages.

Yours

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:41:54 -0700

>

>Dear me, . You are reminding me of a job I once had in which, when

>I tried to be a lawyer, I was accused of not being a lady. This was only

>15 years ago, I hope your P.M.'s wife has not run into the same thing. (I

>hope I am not displaying my ignorance of what the British Commonwealth

>currently consists of, but chances are I am.)

>

>Your mail is very delicately worded and correspondingly obscure. I don't

>think we have an intractable agreement, and where do your parents come into

>it?

>---

>Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

> >Kayleigh

> >

> >I should never wish to have any intractable disagreement with a lady, or

> >with a woman for that matter. A lot of us human beings have had what

>might

> >be fairly described as bad deals. Men are, of course, at a disadvantage

>in

> >the present climate of debate when discussing " sexism " . I rarely venture

>a

> >comment, though my satirical cap is doffed in the topic's direction when

> >working with images of my parents at

> >

> >http://geocities.com/bouglaf/wittgenstein.html#B

> >

> >Best wishes,

> >

> >.

> >

> >>

> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:38:48 -0700

> >>

> >>, I believe that historically, for a long time, people believed

>that

> >>men did all the work and women were viewed as a sort of mechanical

> >>incubator. That view may persist among some today. I don't think

> >>'s remark is entirely gratuitous.

> >>---

> >>Kayleigh

> >>

> >> Zz

> >> zZ

> >> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> >> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> >> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> >> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> >>

> >> >Sorry, , but the profundity of your remark does not alleviate

> >>its

> >> >gratuitousness. Each of us is her/himself a statement of the obvious

>in

> >> >respect of what females have to do with creation.

> >> >

> >> >.

> >> >

> >> >>

> >> >>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >> >>To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >> >>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> >> >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:44:18 EDT

> >> >>

> >> >>Right, Doug. After all, God Must have a penis. What do females have

>to

> >>do

> >> >>with creation, after all?

> >> >>

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >> >> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >> >> >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> >> >> >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:09:00 GMT

> >> >> >

> >> >> >Cool God, shame about the pronoun!

> >> >> >

> >> >> >.

> >> >> >

> >> >> > >

> >> >> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >> >> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >> >> > >Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

> >> >> > >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:50:56 -0400

> >> >> > >

> >> >> > >I believe in something " greater than me " ....I refer to her as God

> >>too.

> >> >>I

> >> >> > >saw " the light of love " when I crossed over at age 4ish. By that

>I

> >> >>know

> >> >> > >there's something beyond " man's religion " , religion, in many

> >>respects,

> >> >>is

> >> >> > >another form of a cult. I cringe when someone starts preaching

> >>their

> >> >> > >interpretation of man's relationship with Her.

> >> >> > >

> >> >> > >Carol S.

> >> >> > >

> >> >> > > Re: AA and suicide

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are

> >> >>brainwashed

> >> >> > > > > > from birth

> >> >> > > > > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in

>a

> >> >> " God " .

> >> >> > > > > > That's

> >> >> > > > > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to

>a

> >> >>person

> >> >> > > > > > who

> >> >> > > > > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it

> >> >>doesn't

> >> >> > > > > > maked a

> >> >> > > > > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express

> >> >>disbelief!!!)

> >> >> > > > > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with

> >>theists.

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the

> >> >> >beginning,

> >> >> > > > > > if not

> >> >> > > > > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide.

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > > > Charlene

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > > > Hi Welcome to my Mind,

> >> >> > > > > > I think that

> >> >> > > > > > Brain empty,

> >> >> > > > > > Cheers,

> >> >> > > > > > Carol

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >>

> >____________________________________________________________________

> >> >> > > > > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today

>at

> >> >> > > > > > http://webmail.netscape.com.

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > >

> >> >>

> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > > > --

> >> >> > > > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where

>on

> >>the

> >> >> > > > > net.

> >> >> > > > > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com

> >> >>Install

> >> >> > > > > now:

> >> >> > > > > > http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959907416/

> >> >> > > > > >

> >> >> > > > >

> >> >>

> >----------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > > > --

> >> >> > > > >

> >> >> >

> >> >>

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > > > Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> >> >> > > > > http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/960223126/

> >> >> > > > >

> >> >> >

> >> >>

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > > >

> >> >> > > >

> >> >>

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > > Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!

> >> >> > > > http://click./1/4112/2/_/4324/_/960247255/

> >> >> > > >

> >> >>

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >> > > >

> >> >> > >

> >> >> >

> >> >>

> >>

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >> >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> >>http://www.hotmail.com

> >> >> >

> >> >>

> >>

> >>________________________________________________________________________

> >> >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com

> >> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com

> >> >

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

> >> >more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

> >>Distance

> >> >rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

> >> >http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960416431/

> >>

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> >

> >>

> >>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> >>Before you buy.

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

> >more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

>Distance

> >rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

> >http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960463640/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>Before you buy.

________________________________________________________________________

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June 10, 2000

Gee Doug:

I'm so sorry i offended your sensibilities. Perhaps I'll go into further

explanations when I post because you obviously missed my whole point.

But then again, I know where you are coming from, so it really dosen't

matter.

Perhaps personal growth was the wrong terminology, so as Mr. Nixon used

to say,

" Now let me make this perfectly clear, Doug " .

It has been talked about on this list at great length, even before you

arrived, I think one of your first responses was your " Here Here "

comment to a post someone made criticizing what I wrote.

Here Here! Wow, I haven't heard that in a dog's age. When I hear that I

picture a bunch of drunken male chauvinists sitting around a table that

is taking a pounding from everyone's beer mug. All that male bonding!

Testosterone runing rampant.

But sorry Doug, I digress.

What I meant was, how people come to this list in different phases in

their relationship with AA. For instance, everyone on this list has

found some fault with 12 step programs. Yet, some people still go to

meetings while others don't.

Some people have broken completely with it and others haven't.

Some people like me is having a very hard time evaluating exactly where

he is. I have never made any pretense of hating AA or wanting to see it

disbanded. I have said I see a lot of things I don't like, more so now

than 20 years ago.

Perhaps you can't understand the feelings I am going through. Twenty

years ago, when I came to AA I was 30 years old, addicted to various

drugs and living in a furnished room with my fiance and a dog that

followed us into a bar one night and we took him home.

I guess it would not be an exageration to say I was close to death and

really didn't care.

Well anyway, to make a long story short, in the 11 years I was clean and

sober my life changed miraculously. I'm not just talking about the

externals like getting a couple of degrees, having a good career, in

which I have had a few good promotions.

Basically it was the intangible things that changed. I changed inside. I

changed for the better. I brought up a daughter sober and had the

privilege of walking down the aisle with her last year. Instead of being

a drain on my family I was able to help the when they were having

trouble.

I know it might be hard for you to comprehend Doug, but not everyone in

AA is an immoral egotist, who delights in having power over other

people. I took the 1st and the 12th step seriously. A gentleness that I

had always had but was buried reemerged.

Yes, I also found my own spirtuality. But that is is my business and I

really don't discuss it.

So, do I hate AA, NO! I am grateful as hell for it. It saved my life.

Do I find fault with it, YES! But I didn't think I had to have a soul

posioned with hate, to be a member of this list.

That is what I meant, MR. Houston when I said we were all at different

levels of growth. But like I said, I know where you are coming from and

if it wasn't that , you would find something to criticize in my posts.

The irony is that you complain so much about how people in AA treat

others, well Sir, it isn't just in AA that little bullies emerge because

they have the opportunity.

BTW ho many other people's post have ou criticized like you do mine.

Any questions?

Originally Mikena@...

Sorry Mike, butyou blew it for me with your step-cant clincher, " a group

where everyone is at different stages of growth " . I don't think we have a

consensus on " personal growth " (an expression that's capable of being an

unspeakable pun on cancer) being a major feature around here.

.

>From: mikena@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: [RE: AA and suicide]

>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:13:03 EDT

>

>One of the most futile efforts is for a believer is to convince an atheist

>there is a God, and for an atheist to convince a believer there is no God.

>

>Understandably, members of both groups resent it when someone of the other

>group suggests books etc. that will help the other person " see the light! "

>

>I have always been bothered by the arrogance of *some* atheists, who

>project

>a patronizing attitude towards believers and are certain beyond a doubt

>that

> " these superstitious religious fools just aren't bright enough to

>understand. " Of course, it is well documented that certain fundamentalist

>religions have as their goal to " open up the minds " of the nonbelievers.

>

>I Agree with whoever said that many religious people do not let their

>religion get in the way of what they see as a violation of the

> " establishment

>of religion classes, " or anything else that tries to knock down that wall

>of

>separation.

>

>I'm just thinking back to the good old days of the Warren Court. Ah! What a

>time it was for liberals who wanted to incorporate the Bill of Rights visa

>via the fourteenth amendment, and the marvelous decisions usually on the

>side

>of liberty and freedom and against tyranny and repression.

>

>From all the reading I have done on the court, it is generally assumed that

>the most important person was n, appointed by President

>Eisenhower who also appointed Earl Warren. In later years Eisenhower said

>that Warren and n were his 2 BIGGEST MISTAKES!

>

>In fact, when n retired from the court, the conservative

>Bible

> " National Review " dedicated an issue to n. The gist of it was that

>Brennan by the way he used the court to bring about change in the late 50s

>and sixties and even in later years as it turned increasingly conservative,

>he was able to hold his own because he was likable, trustworthy and a

>consensus builder.

>

>Why the buildup for Brennan? On just about every issue he sided

>with

>the people against government. He expanded freedom. In a case called

>Grisworld

> V. Connecticut, he stuck down a law that made it illegal to sell condoms

>in

>Connecticut even to married people. He was in the majority in Roe V. Wade.

>In

>his last years he come to the conclusion that all speech must be protected,

>even pornography.

>

>Oh, a very important thing about the man. He was a devout Roman Catholic

>who

>went to mass and communion every day. It is obvious from the kind of

>decisions he wrote, that his religion, especially the Catholic rigidity

>over

>abortion and birth control did not effect how he acted when he put on his

>robes.

>

>So who knows. Maybe when he put on his robes he tapped into some secret

>power

>that removed his " gullibility " about religion so he could be more in line

>with the intelligentsia who find it perfectly acceptable to mock someone's

>religious beliefs.

>

>There are two areas, religion and politics that can put up a wall between

>members on the list, who probably agree with each other on most issues.

>

>In the case of religion and politics being brought into a group where

>everyone is at different stages of growth and is looking for consensus not

>debates on something that is unprovable anyway, the AA slogan " Live and

>let

>live " could not be more appropriate.

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June 10, 2000

> Gee Doug:

>

> I'm so sorry i offended your sensibilities. Perhaps I'll go into

further

> explanations when I post because you obviously missed my whole

point.

> But then again, I know where you are coming from, so it really

dosen't

> matter.

>

Some people like me is having a very hard time evaluating exactly

where