Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Judith - I agree with your theory...I failed at AA, then failed at suicide, go figure.... I do think there's gotta be a correlation somehow....I mean inherent in AA is the requirement that you admit all this bad stuff about yourself and relinquish certain areas of control...I don't think that's a very healthy way to " recover " so to speak. Carey AA and suicide I'm kind of constructing a model of how AA encourages suicide, and this is how it looks so far. One piece is learning how to have a verbally abusive internal dialog. This is done with the 4th step. Since many people are already adept at beating themselves up, the 4th step is like a refining pedagogy in how to really make yourself feel like a sack of crud. Another piece is learning that it's a good thing to end relationships with people who don't give you their unqualified support in adopting AA as if it were a cult. If you don't completely buy into AA, you may want to end your relationship with yourself. These pieces interact with the likelihood that the newcomer to AA is already at risk of depression, due to the adjustment to a major change in lifestyle (depression is one of the stages of acceptance, along with anger, denial and bargaining) along with the fact that they are losing their self-medication. Further, the idea of " rehab " and " recovery " as 28-day or 90-day or 6 month, self-contained processes which result in a person being " recovered, " is a powerfully seductive idea. I'm inclined to think it's a total myth. I think, if there is such a thing as recovery, what one must recover is one's identity, one's self. There can be no one, predefined set of steps that will lead each person to recovery of themselves. By the same token, people who aren't too screwed up will recover their identity pretty quickly, and will attribute their success to AA, while those who " fail " will take personal responsibility for their " failure. " That's all I have so far. I'm losing interest in the quest for a statistical correlation between suicide and AA. Partly this is because of our recent discussion of " credentials. " Partly, it is because I can't think of a humane research methodology for getting this information. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. http://click./1/4634/2/_/4324/_/959869094/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 And yet oddly enough that makes you a SUCCESS!. Go Figure! RE: AA and suicide Judith - I agree with your theory...I failed at AA, then failed at suicide, go figure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Yeah...go figure is right!!! I am happier than ever now!! RE: AA and suicide Judith - I agree with your theory...I failed at AA, then failed at suicide, go figure.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. http://click./1/4633/2/_/4324/_/959869966/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 I couldn't agree more. I would put it this way, based on my personal experience: AA failed you, and caused you to have suicidal feelings. You survived the assault. It's easier for me to say that to someone else than it is for me to internalize it about myself. I think that's why I talk about this stuff so much, because that makes it become real gradually. I know that suicide is addressed in the body of literature that opposes AA (by Ken, Jack Trimpey, Chaz Bufe, etc.). I need to do a little more thorough reading of their ideas. Judith > And yet oddly enough that makes you a SUCCESS!. Go Figure! > Carey wrote: > Judith - > I agree with your theory...I failed at AA, then failed at suicide, go figure.... > _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 > I'm kind of constructing a model of how AA encourages suicide, and this is > how it looks so far. Looks like a good beginning. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to frame it as a theory of how AA encourages " relapse, " depression, suicide, etc. rather than specifically suicide. I think the role of sponsors should also be part of the theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Is it only me or did AA only make you want to go out and drink!?!? Re: AA and suicide > I'm kind of constructing a model of how AA encourages suicide, and this is > how it looks so far. Looks like a good beginning. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to frame it as a theory of how AA encourages " relapse, " depression, suicide, etc. rather than specifically suicide. I think the role of sponsors should also be part of the theory. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ fnCentral.com lets you manage your finances from anywhere at anytime. Put the power of the internet to work - keep track of your finances,investments, expenses... all on fnCentral.com. OPEN YOUR FREE ACCOUNT TODAY! http://click./1/4649/2/_/4324/_/959882294/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:57:13 EDT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > Do you have a statistical background Judith? I still remember and sometimes > use the basics, but it has been years since i've done anything serious. yup, stats and research methodology for the social sciences, and about 10 years of work experience. Enough to put together a model, which is the first step. And at this point it's something I'm doing for myself, with no pretense of rigorous scientific methodology. But I've done lots of research, from concept/grant writing to data collection to reporting. > But then again, it would be easy because of the PC. We actually used to run > some of those things by hand with a calculator. What would now take a half an > hour back then took 10 hours. I bet you got a better grasp of it that way. I used a computer and, although I think my life is rich enough without having squared and divided a thousand numbers in a data sample, I can see the wisdom of doing it the hard way. My oldest brother graduated from the U of MN Institute of Technology in 1971, with a degree in electrical engineering. Pre calculator, he used a *slide rule*. > Please let me know if you have any ideas about this? It's all very informal and loose at this point, Mike, just thinking out loud here. I think about creating a website, about starting a SMART meeting, about researching AA and suicide. I don't really want to coerce myself into doing any of this stuff; I don't seem to be making a commitment to anything but I can see making some kind of career out of it. Right now I do something else for a living and I need to force myself to focus on that. But this is what I've been doing with my spare time for the past year, researching the experiences of people who share my negative opinion of AA. The more I look at it, the more it seems to me this is a story that needs to be told. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Since the AA attrition rate is so high. Why don't we start off with this Hypothesis. There is not a higher suicide rate among AA members and alcoholics who have never been exposed to 12 step dogma either directly through meeting attendance or indirectly through treatment, AA intervention or casual mention of the program. With that in mind let's shoot to disprove it. Re: AA and suicide In a message dated 6/1/00 11:46:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, j_stillwater@... writes: > Actually, creation of a clearly defined theoretical model precedes any > research done using that model. So I am not really losing interest in > searching for a statistical correlation, I am figuring out the first step in > this process. So we start off with the Null Hypothesis being.... What would it be? There is not a higher suicide rate among AA members than non AAmembers? Then the object is to disprove the null hypothesis. It is something that I would enjoy trying just for the challenge, but I think it would take a professional statistician as a guide and a few people who care more about the analysis than the outcome of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 >Very interesting! I think it starts a lot earlier than the 4th step though. >It may start earlier than even getting to an AA meeting. The AA mythology that has seeped out into the community is that " alcoholism " (and now any >kind of addictive behaviour) is a disease that is incurable and can only be >dealt with by the 12 step program for life. That in itself might be enough to encourage a few people to end it all. And of course when they get to the meetings and have that incorrect information reinforced and on >top of that find out that it is a religious program that claims not to be, things get >worse. >Step 1 contains the words " admitted we were powerless over >alcohol and our >lives had become unmanageable " . Both statements that >are " admitted " here >are untrue. I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed from birth to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " . That's why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person who expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't maked a d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!) Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists. Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning, if not the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Charlene ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed from birth > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " . That's > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person who > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't maked a > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!) > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists. > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning, if not > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide. > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. > > Charlene Charlene, Good point. I think the stigmatization also has a lot to do with it. " Because we are spiritual-social beings, the human desire for legitimacy may be even more basic than the desire for life itself. Sometimes, some persons want to die, but no one ever wants to be illegitimate. Illegitimacy, par excellence, is an ascription no one attributes to himself:...In short, legitimacy is to us what water is to fish: the milieu in which we, as spiritual beings, live--and hence notice only when we are deprived of it (by others). Revealingly, when we deprive others of legitimacy, we tend to blind ourselves to the subject's situation as he experiences it: We insist that his situation is caused by his condition, not by our definition... " Dr. Szasz " The Untamed Tongue: A Dissenting Dictionary " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Charlene: Never really connected powerlessness with the beginning of depression and with my personal background that amazes me. I'm stickin to your story to. Re: AA and suicide I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed from birth to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " . That's why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person who expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't maked a d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!) Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists. Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the beginning, if not the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Charlene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Hi Judith, I hit a real emotional bottom when I had been in AA about 3 years. I had been married for only about a half year and already some of my future ex's unattractive qualities were rearing their ugly heads. Certainly that contributed to it. However, I tried to work my program and be accepting and tolerant and not get angry and look at my part and I just got worse and worse. If I'd call my sponsor or someone else in the program, of course, they would spout the slogans and all of a sudden not one of those slogans were working or helping. I just got worse and worse. I became extremely lethargic. I remember my lowest point as well as if it were yesterday. We were driving up to visit my family out of town and I was sensing this growing despair. I had my journal with me and began writing and all I could write about was how hopeless everything seemed to me and how I had no reason to live anymore and could not think of one damn thing good about myself. Later that evening we all went out to dinner and I guess I got hit with some kind of physical reaction to all of this (believe me, never in my life had I ever felt so rotten about life). I got lightheaded and started losing my breath and shaking and I couldn't hide it and I must have looked bad. Apparently I got pale also. Fortunately I found something within myself to go on and went to the doctor's for anti-depressants and started therapy with a kind woman who validated that the treatment I was getting from my husband was not right and would continue to drain the energy out of me. I heard not one 'this too shall pass' or 'take it one day at a time' and wow was that refreshing. I'm pretty sure that this was the turning point toward AA for me. It scares me to think that if I had continued to rely on AA's philosophy, I may not be writing this today. Hope this helps. jan RE: AA and suicide > I couldn't agree more. I would put it this way, based on my personal > experience: AA failed you, and caused you to have suicidal feelings. You > survived the assault. > > It's easier for me to say that to someone else than it is for me to > internalize it about myself. I think that's why I talk about this stuff so > much, because that makes it become real gradually. > > I know that suicide is addressed in the body of literature that opposes AA > (by Ken, Jack Trimpey, Chaz Bufe, etc.). I need to do a little more thorough > reading of their ideas. > > Judith > > > > > And yet oddly enough that makes you a SUCCESS!. Go Figure! > > > Carey wrote: > > Judith - > > I agree with your theory...I failed at AA, then failed at suicide, go > figure.... > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > fnCentral.com cuts the cable. Come see how to be free! > Use the web's first fully integrated personal finance manager > from any PC, Palm, phone. OPEN A FREE ACCOUNT NOW. > http://click./1/4624/2/_/4324/_/959873339/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 My AA step boy toy future ex-husband who had 5 years on me claimed he wanted to get drunk at least once a month (along with sending the kid back to his mother, selling the house, getting out of his business and divorcing me). But he kept going to those meetings because " AA's the only thing you need for problems " he'd say when he claimed he was " spiritually fit " . I'm being honest when I say that I only wanted to get good and drunk once about 9 months into sobriety. Otherwise, every now and then I'd have this thought that it'd be nice to have a glass of wine or a daiquiri. Guess it was a mild craving. Plus I ascertained early on that my drinking was a response to alot of stupid stuff I brought upon myself and also everybody else I hung out with drank and partied hard. I never really swallowed the disease concept. I guess I matured out of it despite AA. Now I can enjoy a cocktail with Dad when I take him out to a restaurant and not feel inward pressure to pick up the biggest bottle of wine I can find on my way home. What I don't have the desire for anymore are the loss of control sensations or the wasted recuperating day after. jan RE: Re: AA and suicide > Is it only me or did AA only make you want to go out and drink!?!? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Hi Judith, isn't it wonderful to have the freedom to think of ways to fill up the time productively we used to have to spend in AA meetings! jan Re: AA and suicide > On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:57:13 EDT, 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > Do you have a statistical background Judith? I still remember and > sometimes > > use the basics, but it has been years since i've done anything serious. > > yup, stats and research methodology for the social sciences, and about 10 > years of work experience. Enough to put together a model, which is the first > step. And at this point it's something I'm doing for myself, with no > pretense of rigorous scientific methodology. But I've done lots of research, > from concept/grant writing to data collection to reporting. > > > But then again, it would be easy because of the PC. We actually used to > run > > some of those things by hand with a calculator. What would now take a > half an > > hour back then took 10 hours. > > I bet you got a better grasp of it that way. I used a computer and, although > I think my life is rich enough without having squared and divided a thousand > numbers in a data sample, I can see the wisdom of doing it the hard way. > > My oldest brother graduated from the U of MN Institute of Technology in > 1971, with a degree in electrical engineering. Pre calculator, he used a > *slide rule*. > > > Please let me know if you have any ideas about this? > > It's all very informal and loose at this point, Mike, just thinking out loud > here. I think about creating a website, about starting a SMART meeting, > about researching AA and suicide. I don't really want to coerce myself into > doing any of this stuff; I don't seem to be making a commitment to anything > but I can see making some kind of career out of it. Right now I do something > else for a living and I need to force myself to focus on that. > > But this is what I've been doing with my spare time for the past year, > researching the experiences of people who share my negative opinion of AA. > The more I look at it, the more it seems to me this is a story that needs to > be told. > > Judith > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > http://click./1/4633/2/_/4324/_/959884887/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2000 Report Share Posted June 1, 2000 Hi , I'm a little confused about the hypothesis you stated. Should you have included AA members because logically, AA members are exposed to step dogma. How's this: " There is not a higher suicide rate among alcoholics who have never been exposed to 12-step dogma . . . . . . . than members of the AA program. " Course, you may have made sense and I may be completely confused!!!! have patience with me! jan Re: AA and suicide > > In a message dated 6/1/00 11:46:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > j_stillwater@... writes: > > Actually, creation of a clearly defined theoretical model precedes > any > > research done using that model. So I am not really losing interest > in > > searching for a statistical correlation, I am figuring out the > first step > in > > this process. > > > So we start off with the Null Hypothesis being.... > What would it be? > There is not a higher suicide rate among AA members than non > AAmembers? > Then the object is to disprove the null hypothesis. > It is something that I would enjoy trying just for the challenge, but > I think it would take a professional statistician as a guide and a > few people who care more about the analysis than the outcome of it. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers. > http://click./1/4633/2/_/4324/_/959885185/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 Yes -- step 4 = " the fault of your choice as agreed with your sponsor " . " Shall we then sin the more in order that Grace may abound? " -- St [more or less], . ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 Dear Judith, " If you don't completely buy into AA, you may want to end your relationship with yourself. " This sentence (in context) explains how my poor ex-wife felt when she " had " to leave me. Yours, > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: AA and suicide >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm kind of constructing a model of how AA encourages suicide, and this is >how it looks so far. > >One piece is learning how to have a verbally abusive internal dialog. This >is done with the 4th step. Since many people are already adept at beating >themselves up, the 4th step is like a refining pedagogy in how to really >make yourself feel like a sack of crud. > >Another piece is learning that it's a good thing to end relationships with >people who don't give you their unqualified support in adopting AA as if it >were a cult. If you don't completely buy into AA, you may want to end your >relationship with yourself. > >These pieces interact with the likelihood that the newcomer to AA is >already >at risk of depression, due to the adjustment to a major change in lifestyle >(depression is one of the stages of acceptance, along with anger, denial >and >bargaining) along with the fact that they are losing their self-medication. > >Further, the idea of " rehab " and " recovery " as 28-day or 90-day or 6 month, >self-contained processes which result in a person being " recovered, " is a >powerfully seductive idea. I'm inclined to think it's a total myth. I >think, >if there is such a thing as recovery, what one must recover is one's >identity, one's self. There can be no one, predefined set of steps that >will >lead each person to recovery of themselves. By the same token, people who >aren't too screwed up will recover their identity pretty quickly, and will >attribute their success to AA, while those who " fail " will take personal >responsibility for their " failure. " > >That's all I have so far. I'm losing interest in the quest for a >statistical >correlation between suicide and AA. Partly this is because of our recent >discussion of " credentials. " Partly, it is because I can't think of a >humane >research methodology for getting this information. > >Judith > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite >Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 Dear Joe Yes -- I actually left a drink unfinished in a pub tonight because I just didn't bloody want to stick around that place, Yrs, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 16:41:30 -0700 > >At 07:18 01/06/00 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm kind of constructing a model of how AA encourages suicide, and this >is > >how it looks so far. > > > >One piece is learning how to have a verbally abusive internal dialog. >This > >is done with the 4th step. Since many people are already adept at beating > >themselves up, the 4th step is like a refining pedagogy in how to really > >make yourself feel like a sack of crud. > > > >Another piece is learning that it's a good thing to end relationships >with > >people who don't give you their unqualified support in adopting AA as if >it > >were a cult. If you don't completely buy into AA, you may want to end >your > >relationship with yourself. > > > >These pieces interact with the likelihood that the newcomer to AA is >already > >at risk of depression, due to the adjustment to a major change in >lifestyle > >(depression is one of the stages of acceptance, along with anger, denial >and > >bargaining) along with the fact that they are losing their >self-medication. > > > >Further, the idea of " rehab " and " recovery " as 28-day or 90-day or 6 >month, > >self-contained processes which result in a person being " recovered, " is a > >powerfully seductive idea. I'm inclined to think it's a total myth. I >think, > >if there is such a thing as recovery, what one must recover is one's > >identity, one's self. There can be no one, predefined set of steps that >will > >lead each person to recovery of themselves. By the same token, people who > >aren't too screwed up will recover their identity pretty quickly, and >will > >attribute their success to AA, while those who " fail " will take personal > >responsibility for their " failure. " > > > >That's all I have so far. I'm losing interest in the quest for a >statistical > >correlation between suicide and AA. Partly this is because of our recent > >discussion of " credentials. " Partly, it is because I can't think of a >humane > >research methodology for getting this information. > > > >Judith > >Very interesting! I think it starts a lot earlier than the 4th step though. >It may start earlier than even getting to an AA meeting. The AA mythology >that has seeped out into the community is that " alcoholism " (and now any >kind of addictive behaviour) is a disease that is incurable and can only be >dealt with by the 12 step program for life. That in itself might be enough >to encourage a few people to end it all. And of course when they get to the >meetings and have that incorrect information reinforced and on top of that >find out that it is a religious program that claims not to be, things get >worse. > >Step 1 contains the words " admitted we were powerless over alcohol and our >lives had become unmanageable " . Both statements that are " admitted " here >are untrue. People are not powerless over alcohol, as is demonstrated by >the " successful AA's " who no longer drink it, along with all the other >people who cease this addictive behaviour. If they were powerless they >would not have been able to stop. This is quite apart from the ridiculous >notion that a glass of beer or bottle of spirits can exert power over >anybody! And the " unmanageable " prong of step 1 is equally mistaken. It is >not that someone's life has " become unmanageable " , it is that their >behaviour is causing them problems with their life- but they can change >that behaviour and improve that life- they can in fact manage it, and it is >desirable that they realise this fact and take advantage of it. Telling >people that they cannot manage their life simply contributes to a belief in >hopelessness and in the impossibility of change at a personal level. >Manipulating vulnerable people through fear into " admitting " something of >this nature (as if it were fact) is evil, in my opinion, and is a form of >mind control. Not a good booster for mental health. > >Step 2 contains the words " came to believe that a power greater than >ourselves could restore us to sanity " . This is subtly undermining of the >confidence people need to assess and change their behaviour since the >implication is that one agrees that one is insane and it is commonly >thought that an insane person cannot trust their own perceptions or make >decisions for themselves. This is the thin end of the poisonous religious >wedge that AA drives into the heart of suffering human beings. It is >nonsense. Doorknobs and ashtrays, trees and AA groups, whatever may be >suggested to bypass people's innate and healthy critical thinking >abilities- it is all nonsense. > >Step 3 contains the words " Made a decision to turn our will and our lives >over to the care of God as we understood Him " . Not everyone will greet the >prospect of this clumsy piece of religious manipulation with joy. >Especially those who are not religious or have a religious belief that >clashes with this. It would be wise for a person wishing to recover from >some addictive behaviour to assume greater control of their will and their >life. This step directly undermines the development of personal >responsibility and encourages magical thinking and a dependent attitude >towards the supernatural of all things! Not too healthy. > >Joe B. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 " I believe, Lord, help Thou mine unbelief " . Yrs, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:35:58 -0000 > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed >from birth > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " . >That's > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person >who > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't >maked a > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!) > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists. > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the >beginning, if not > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide. > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. > > > > Charlene > > >Charlene, > >Good point. I think the stigmatization also has a lot to do with it. > > " Because we are spiritual-social beings, the human desire for >legitimacy >may be even more basic than the desire for life itself. Sometimes, >some >persons want to die, but no one ever wants to be illegitimate. >Illegitimacy, par excellence, is an ascription no one attributes to >himself:...In short, legitimacy is to us what water is to fish: the >milieu in which we, as spiritual beings, live--and hence notice only >when we are deprived of it (by others). Revealingly, when we deprive >others of legitimacy, we tend to blind ourselves to the subject's >situation as he experiences it: We insist that his situation is >caused >by his condition, not by our definition... " > >Dr. Szasz > " The Untamed Tongue: A Dissenting Dictionary " > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2000 Report Share Posted June 2, 2000 " I believe, Lord, help Thou mine unbelief " . Yrs, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: AA and suicide >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:35:58 -0000 > > > > I agree totally. I also believe that most people are brainwashed >from birth > > to accept (or at least not publicly contradict) belief in a " God " . >That's > > why I don't necessarily initailly correlate a lower IQ to a person >who > > expresses a casual belief in a " God " . (What the H---, it doesn't >maked a > > d--- bit of dif, and it's very unpopular to express disbelief!!!) > > Also gets you into totally unproductive arguments with theists. > > > > Step 1 is the beginning of the end. Powerlessness is the >beginning, if not > > the essence, of depression. Depression causes suicide. > > > > That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. > > > > Charlene > > >Charlene, > >Good point. I think the stigmatization also has a lot to do with it. > > " Because we are spiritual-social beings, the human desire for >legitimacy >may be even more basic than the desire for life itself. Sometimes, >some >persons want to die, but no one ever wants to be illegitimate. >Illegitimacy, par excellence, is an ascription no one attributes to >himself:...In short, legitimacy is to us what water is to fish: the >milieu in which we, as spiritual beings, live--and hence notice only >when we are deprived of it (by others). Revealingly, when we deprive >others of legitimacy, we tend to blind ourselves to the subject's >situation as he experiences it: We insist that his situation is >caused >by his condition, not by our definition... " > >Dr. Szasz > " The Untamed Tongue: A Dissenting Dictionary " > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 Thanks for the titles Wally, I will check those out, especially the Berryman novel. You are right about the negative internal dialog starting with the first step--that's kind of what Joe said too. In my case, I think the negative internal dialog was there all along, but it gradually faded into the background as I matured. Until I got into coerced 12 step treatment; then it was dragged back up, and I was coached to perfection in learning how to say things that made me feel so ashamed I was paralyzed. > Another difficulty that contributes to the sense of hopelessness is that in AA you are committed to believing a bunch of stuff that is either self-contradictory or just obviously false. The only way to really bring this off is to 'snap' into the cult mentality and let the group do your thinking. Now some people, among them me, simply can't do it for very long (despite our best efforts :-)). Others succeed, but at the cost of losing touch with their real thoughts and feelings. Cohen (see above) refers to this thought/feeling stopping process as 'dissociation.' When it happens life loses its meaning (the void being filled, of course, by the unsatisfactory fake 'meaning' provided by the cult beliefs.) I read a book called " True Believers " for a social pschology class, the author joined a cult that expected a space ship to come at a specific time and take all the cult members to some intergalactic Eden. What I remember right now is that the author wrote about how, when the spaceship didn't come, the stakes increased, and it *strengthened* the beliefs of those who remained in the cult. They had to decide how committed they were. > Getting statistics to show any significant causal relationship (+ or -) between AA membership and suicide seems virtually impossible. Not only is the data rather hard to get [like, when's the last time you read an obituary that said so-and-so killed himself and was an AA member??] but it wouldn't mean much unless you could factor out influences on suicide that are also related to AA membership. Nobody would be surprised in the least to find a high incidence of suicide among AA members, because there is a high incidence among heavy drinkers and depressives. > > The best approach for making a case might turn out to be collecting as many case histories as possible, in whatever form they may be found, and looking for conformance to a model that makes sense. I agree with all of this. I'm really not interested in finding something that isn't there. In fact, in a suicide/ depression model, AA would probably be lumped together with other agents of socialization or brainwashing or whatever. Whew. It's a pretty ambitious undertaking. I can't think about it too much or I get overwhelmed. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2000 Report Share Posted June 3, 2000 >the verbally abusive internal dialog > starts well before you do the 4th step, especially if you go to treatment. > Believing that you are powerless over alcohol, or 'in denial' already > implies that you are your own enemy, that your own mind is out to get you. I think that most of us are prone to verbally abusive internal dailogue anytime we are having difficulties in breaking a destructive habit, especially one that is long-standing. Since alcohol is pleasurable and lowers inhibitions, it is easy to feel powerless even prior to AA indoctrination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2000 Report Share Posted June 4, 2000 -----Original Message----- > >>the verbally abusive internal dialog >> starts well before you do the 4th step, especially if you go to >treatment. >> Believing that you are powerless over alcohol, or 'in denial' >already >> implies that you are your own enemy, that your own mind is out to >get you. > > >I think that most of us are prone to verbally abusive internal >dailogue anytime we are having difficulties in breaking a destructive >habit, especially one that is long-standing. Since alcohol is >pleasurable and lowers inhibitions, it is easy to feel powerless even >prior to AA indoctrination. > I would say that we have a *critical* internal dialogue when we have recognized a problem, but have not yet figured out how to deal with it. There is a difference between critical and abusive. In any case, when I think back to the brief period of time when I had started seeing a counselor but had not yet hit the halls of AA, I remember feeling generally hopeful, and proud that I had finally 'done something about it.' I had been able to put the drink down without too much trouble, and the first thing that happened was that a lot of feeling/thinking distortions that I had assumed to be a mental health problem just went away. The AA viewpoint, that I was still powerless and suffering from 'character defects' repulsed me. It still does. --wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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