Re: Re: Let's stop fighting

May 20, 2000

> arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept out.

>

> best,

> P.

Was arf12s alt.recovery.from.12.steps? How long ago did it die?

May 20, 2000

Hi Pete;

Fought with you a while back, three months or so, when Mikena

came on the list.

Sorry PAL, my mistake. TRolls like this smug character can ruin

a legitimate list. Jesus my typing sucks this morning. Well it's

5am here and I just got up. Any old excuse is better than none.

Noon where you are, or perhaps 11am never can keep these time

zones straight.

Oh, it is DEFCON, for Defense Condition.

His Hazing Comittee remark says it all.

May 20, 2000

I've been monitoring arf12s for a little while, and it is pretty happening

now--slow moving, but what gets posted is more meaningful and less

out-and-out nasty than it's been in the past.

Judith

On Sat, 20 May 2000 00:49:24 -0600, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> > arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> > legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept out.

> >

> > best,

> > P.

>

> Was arf12s alt.recovery.from.12.steps? How long ago did it die?

>

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May 20, 2000

My integrity says to me, when I posted the " Let's stop fighting "

post, I was not asking for a popularity contest, nor do I think

it's appropriate. It's Ken's list, and he'll decide what to do.

> > I'm not going to address anyone by name, but you know who you are.

> >

> > First, imo, if 12-step-free serves a purpose, it is not only to

> cater

> > to those of us who've rejected the steps, but also those who have

> > doubts and want to explore further. Ken can say if he disagrees,

> > it's

> > his list. But why reject people who are troubled and don't know

> what

> > to do?

>

> I posted something like this myself recently, but mikena doesnt

seem

> to fit this description - his is smug and has stated he knows full

> well what he wants to do here - which was be deliberately

provocative.

>

> >

> > Second, historically there's very little logical basis for why

> > certain

> > drugs are legal and others are not.

>

> In terms of recreational drugs yes - but there is a very great deal

> of

> logic used in what drugs are used as meds or not. what is true is

> that

> drug hysteria, and considering all drugs as the same, except

alcohol

> of course, all other drugs.... and except tobacco too of course,

all

> other drugs... oh yes, and except coffeee too of course, all o...

oh

> yes, then there's chocolate too....

>

> Anyway this hysteria abt drugs and what I will now call prejudice

and

> not ignorance against meds as a result, there are many drugs

that

> could be used as meds which arent as a rule - such as opiates for

> depression, amphetamines for adult ADD (real no no in the UK that

> one.) SO, there is a knock on effect of unnecessary suffering that

> most ppl arent even aware of results from drug hysteria - and look

at

> poor , deprived painkillers and he has broken bones for

> chryssake.

> >

> > Third, there's very little point in antagonizing each other.

>

> If only mikena knew that - but I dont have a problem with

> antagonizing

> him as he's admitted he was deliberately provocative to me.

> >

> > Fourth, I hope no one takes this badly. I mean no harm, but I

> don't

> > want to see the list degenerate into infighting, which destroyed

> > arf12.

>

> arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept out.

>

> best,

> P.

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from

> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!

> http://click./1/3010/2/_/4324/_/958799039/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

May 20, 2000

I'm not trying to win or engage in any popularity contests. Put yourself

in my place. Since I have been on this list I have had to spend most of

my time battling or proving myself all because of 1 or 2 people.

The only one on this list who saw what was going on and wasn't afraid to

publicly say something was my friend from Denmark.

ly, I'm tired of it. People are on this list because of things they

did not like in AA. I think I heard mention of not liking cliques, and

how some people felt they did not have the freedom to say what they

wanted.

Well, this stuff happens in other places than AA. All I am asking is

does anyone else think I have been detrimental to the group and should

leave.

I know it is Ken's list and if he tells me I'm off there is not much I

can do about it. But, this goes beyond my being a member of a list. It

goes to the heart of what type of list do you want?

If people are afraid to say " Mike I don't think you should be removed

from the list, " or " I think you do not belong here. " then.......

The only way this could conceivably be turned into a popularity contest

is if someone dosen't think I should be removed, but won't say so

because they don't want to go against someone they consider a power on

the list.

If this isn't exactly like a few " Old Timers " AA members intimidating

people and running the show, than I don't know what is.

Not to far removed from AA

and Clancy.

Originally Mikena@...

My integrity says to me, when I posted the " Let's stop fighting "

post, I was not asking for a popularity contest, nor do I think

it's appropriate. It's Ken's list, and he'll decide what to do.

> > I'm not going to address anyone by name, but you know who you are.

> >

> > First, imo, if 12-step-free serves a purpose, it is not only to

> cater

> > to those of us who've rejected the steps, but also those who have

> > doubts and want to explore further. Ken can say if he disagrees,

> > it's

> > his list. But why reject people who are troubled and don't know

> what

> > to do?

>

> I posted something like this myself recently, but mikena doesnt

seem

> to fit this description - his is smug and has stated he knows full

> well what he wants to do here - which was be deliberately

provocative.

>

> >

> > Second, historically there's very little logical basis for why

> > certain

> > drugs are legal and others are not.

>

> In terms of recreational drugs yes - but there is a very great deal

> of

> logic used in what drugs are used as meds or not. what is true is

> that

> drug hysteria, and considering all drugs as the same, except

alcohol

> of course, all other drugs.... and except tobacco too of course,

all

> other drugs... oh yes, and except coffeee too of course, all o...

oh

> yes, then there's chocolate too....

>

> Anyway this hysteria abt drugs and what I will now call prejudice

and

> not ignorance against meds as a result, there are many drugs

that

> could be used as meds which arent as a rule - such as opiates for

> depression, amphetamines for adult ADD (real no no in the UK that

> one.) SO, there is a knock on effect of unnecessary suffering that

> most ppl arent even aware of results from drug hysteria - and look

at

> poor , deprived painkillers and he has broken bones for

> chryssake.

> >

> > Third, there's very little point in antagonizing each other.

>

> If only mikena knew that - but I dont have a problem with

> antagonizing

> him as he's admitted he was deliberately provocative to me.

> >

> > Fourth, I hope no one takes this badly. I mean no harm, but I

> don't

> > want to see the list degenerate into infighting, which destroyed

> > arf12.

>

> arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept out.

>

> best,

> P.

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from

> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!

> http://click./1/3010/2/_/4324/_/958799039/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 20, 2000

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. You don't have to battle

anyone. Just remember the name of the list and what it's about.

There's no need to feel intimidated. Just remember where the

different people on the list are coming from, and try to see their

points of view as well.

You may feel that we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater,

namely, that there are good aspects of AA that we overlook. Speaking

for myself, there is so much wrong with AA that it far outweighs any

good that may be found, and if I do find any good in it, then I can

practice those principles in my own affairs and shut up about it. I

believe that AA is so damaging and harmful that I will never concede

that I find something good about it, because that will simply engage

me in arguments with AA advocates who want more concessions. This

list is not about what, if anything, is okay about AA.

> > > I'm not going to address anyone by name, but you know who you

are.

> > >

> > > First, imo, if 12-step-free serves a purpose, it is not only to

> > cater

> > > to those of us who've rejected the steps, but also those who

have

> > > doubts and want to explore further. Ken can say if he

disagrees,

> > > it's

> > > his list. But why reject people who are troubled and don't

know

> > what

> > > to do?

> >

> > I posted something like this myself recently, but mikena doesnt

> seem

> > to fit this description - his is smug and has stated he knows

full

> > well what he wants to do here - which was be deliberately

> provocative.

> >

> > >

> > > Second, historically there's very little logical basis for why

> > > certain

> > > drugs are legal and others are not.

> >

> > In terms of recreational drugs yes - but there is a very great

deal

> > of

> > logic used in what drugs are used as meds or not. what is true is

> > that

> > drug hysteria, and considering all drugs as the same, except

> alcohol

> > of course, all other drugs.... and except tobacco too of course,

> all

> > other drugs... oh yes, and except coffeee too of course, all o...

> oh

> > yes, then there's chocolate too....

> >

> > Anyway this hysteria abt drugs and what I will now call prejudice

> and

> > not ignorance against meds as a result, there are many drugs

> that

> > could be used as meds which arent as a rule - such as opiates for

> > depression, amphetamines for adult ADD (real no no in the UK that

> > one.) SO, there is a knock on effect of unnecessary suffering

that

> > most ppl arent even aware of results from drug hysteria - and

look

> at

> > poor , deprived painkillers and he has broken bones for

> > chryssake.

> > >

> > > Third, there's very little point in antagonizing each other.

> >

> > If only mikena knew that - but I dont have a problem with

> > antagonizing

> > him as he's admitted he was deliberately provocative to me.

> > >

> > > Fourth, I hope no one takes this badly. I mean no harm, but I

> > don't

> > > want to see the list degenerate into infighting, which

destroyed

> > > arf12.

> >

> > arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> > legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept

out.

> >

> > best,

> > P.

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate

from

> > Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!

> > http://click./1/3010/2/_/4324/_/958799039/

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that

lets

> you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

> http://click./1/3012/2/_/4324/_/958874920/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

May 21, 2000

OK. You're not a troll.

-- wally

-----Original Message-----

....

>

>If you feel I'm a troll who is hurting the group vote me out. Vote me

>out for any reason if you want. But if you think I am an asset to this

>list and am genuinely sincere in my remarks, and have my own problems

>and questions with AA than vote Yes. If it is ok with Ken, I will abide

>by the decision of the group.

>

....

May 21, 2000

Kayleigh,

I agree. AA programming imo killed Dennis. Whatever " good " it did him, eg

kept him sober for short periods of time, etc., is nullified by that.

Charlene

Speaking

for myself, there is so much wrong with AA that it far outweighs any

good that may be found, and if I do find any good in it, then I can

practice those principles in my own affairs and shut up about it. I

believe that AA is so damaging and harmful that I will never concede

that I find something good about it, because that will simply engage

me in arguments with AA advocates who want more concessions.

______________________________________________

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May 21, 2000

Hi Amy

I havent checked it for ages, so someone else will have to tell you

the present status. It's probably still around in some XA

contaminated

form, but some ppl ,including me, dont find it worth the time.

P.

>

> Was arf12s alt.recovery.from.12.steps? How long ago did it die?

May 21, 2000

Mike and list,

I was writing a reply to this when my browser bombed out, so you

probably didnt see it. So this going to be briefer than I intended.

I've made it totally clear what my problem with you is Mike. From the

beginning youve been an XA apologist, at most a would-be reformer

rather than a skeptic - and if you are a reformer, then you ought to

be fighting for those reforms in a movement you say you have been in

for years and achieved prominence - not apologizing for it here.

When

you admitted to being provocative, you made no mention of thinking I

enjoyed " baiting you " - which is not surprising, as it's quite clear

that I was pissed with you and anything but enjoying anything abt

your

presence here. You also accused me of cloning, an insult both to me

and the supposed clone.

I do respect that you indicate an acceptance of the majority position

view here as to whether you should stay. However, imo I think this

actually strengthens my suspicion that you arent genuine in your

involvement here. In my experience, unless ppl were already long-term

involved and committed to a list's purpose (as you have not been),

then hostility from just one, and certainly two or more, established

members is usually enough to make someone quit a list if they are

are actually genuine - only trolls tend to stick around in these

circumstances.

> > I'm not going to address anyone by name, but you know who you are.

> >

> > First, imo, if 12-step-free serves a purpose, it is not only to

> cater

> > to those of us who've rejected the steps, but also those who have

> > doubts and want to explore further. Ken can say if he disagrees,

> > it's

> > his list. But why reject people who are troubled and don't know

> what

> > to do?

>

> I posted something like this myself recently, but mikena doesnt

seem

> to fit this description - his is smug and has stated he knows full

> well what he wants to do here - which was be deliberately

provocative.

>

> >

> > Second, historically there's very little logical basis for why

> > certain

> > drugs are legal and others are not.

>

> In terms of recreational drugs yes - but there is a very great deal

> of

> logic used in what drugs are used as meds or not. what is true is

> that

> drug hysteria, and considering all drugs as the same, except

alcohol

> of course, all other drugs.... and except tobacco too of course,

all

> other drugs... oh yes, and except coffeee too of course, all o...

oh

> yes, then there's chocolate too....

>

> Anyway this hysteria abt drugs and what I will now call prejudice

and

> not ignorance against meds as a result, there are many drugs

that

> could be used as meds which arent as a rule - such as opiates for

> depression, amphetamines for adult ADD (real no no in the UK that

> one.) SO, there is a knock on effect of unnecessary suffering that

> most ppl arent even aware of results from drug hysteria - and look

at

> poor , deprived painkillers and he has broken bones for

> chryssake.

> >

> > Third, there's very little point in antagonizing each other.

>

> If only mikena knew that - but I dont have a problem with

> antagonizing

> him as he's admitted he was deliberately provocative to me.

> >

> > Fourth, I hope no one takes this badly. I mean no harm, but I

> don't

> > want to see the list degenerate into infighting, which destroyed

> > arf12.

>

> arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept out.

>

> best,

> P.

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from

> Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!

> http://click./1/3010/2/_/4324/_/958799039/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

May 21, 2000

Mike,

All the below appears to exist soley in your head. The only person

I've heard complaining abt not being allowed to say what they like is

you. Could it be that the reason you havent had any more public

support than you " friend in Denmark " is because in fact other ppl did

*not* " see what was going on " the way you see it and hence just didnt

support you, rather than because they were afraid to say so?

Nor have you had to spend your time doing anything; you have admitted

that you *actively chose* to stay on this list *in order to be

provocative*, and that if I hadnt challenged you, you would probably

have left it - and you indicated satisfaction that you felt you were

winning exchanges and winding me up too . If you genuinely want to

stay on this list Mike, then you ought to be thanking me for making

you stay.

Again, I respect that you have indicated a willingness to conform to

a

majority decision; I dont have a problem with you asking for ppl to

speak up to support you at all.

> > > I'm not going to address anyone by name, but you know who you

are.

> > >

> > > First, imo, if 12-step-free serves a purpose, it is not only to

> > cater

> > > to those of us who've rejected the steps, but also those who

have

> > > doubts and want to explore further. Ken can say if he

disagrees,

> > > it's

> > > his list. But why reject people who are troubled and don't

know

> > what

> > > to do?

> >

> > I posted something like this myself recently, but mikena doesnt

> seem

> > to fit this description - his is smug and has stated he knows

full

> > well what he wants to do here - which was be deliberately

> provocative.

> >

> > >

> > > Second, historically there's very little logical basis for why

> > > certain

> > > drugs are legal and others are not.

> >

> > In terms of recreational drugs yes - but there is a very great

deal

> > of

> > logic used in what drugs are used as meds or not. what is true is

> > that

> > drug hysteria, and considering all drugs as the same, except

> alcohol

> > of course, all other drugs.... and except tobacco too of course,

> all

> > other drugs... oh yes, and except coffeee too of course, all o...

> oh

> > yes, then there's chocolate too....

> >

> > Anyway this hysteria abt drugs and what I will now call prejudice

> and

> > not ignorance against meds as a result, there are many drugs

> that

> > could be used as meds which arent as a rule - such as opiates for

> > depression, amphetamines for adult ADD (real no no in the UK that

> > one.) SO, there is a knock on effect of unnecessary suffering

that

> > most ppl arent even aware of results from drug hysteria - and

look

> at

> > poor , deprived painkillers and he has broken bones for

> > chryssake.

> > >

> > > Third, there's very little point in antagonizing each other.

> >

> > If only mikena knew that - but I dont have a problem with

> > antagonizing

> > him as he's admitted he was deliberately provocative to me.

> > >

> > > Fourth, I hope no one takes this badly. I mean no harm, but I

> > don't

> > > want to see the list degenerate into infighting, which

destroyed

> > > arf12.

> >

> > arf12s was destroyed by XA infiltrators, not by infighting by

> > legitimate members - its failure xshows why they should be kept

out.

> >

> > best,

> > P.

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate

from

> > Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter!

> > http://click./1/3010/2/_/4324/_/958799039/

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that

lets

> you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

> http://click./1/3012/2/_/4324/_/958874920/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

May 21, 2000

> OK. You're not a troll.

Could be a brass-balls bluff Wally, as well as just playing the odds

against a simple Ken zap.

You're probably right, but the McEnroe " What did I do ? What did

I say? " routine can be played by anybody.

P.

May 21, 2000

> Hi Pete;

>

> The prick is a troll. Get Ken to ice him, if you have the pull

with

> Ken.

Alas, Ken is his own man - but Mike certainly aint winning the

primaries, is he?

Looks like time for Honest-to-God-12-step-free.

P.

May 21, 2000

Well, I don't think anyone expected any other kind of answer from you

Pete.

Also, as I said before, it is not your place to decide what my belief

system is and to top it of with the arrogance that you know best for me

what type of list I should be on.

BTW, I am curious what 12 step program did you attend. Many people on

this list have opened their heart about their addictions and their

problems. You like to stay above the fray. What was or is your problems

you are trying to work out here. How would you like it if I decided for

you where it is appropriate you

go to do it.

When I said I would leave the list if that was te consensus of the

group, I meant are few more people than you Pete.