Advice on setting boundaries

[Guest guest]

Having read " stop walking on eggshells " I have set two boundaries for my

relationship with my nada:

1. I have told her I will not see her alone, but only in the context of family

outings with my brother and father and in public places, that way I hope to

avoid being screamed at and also to reduce her opportunities for inventing

things I'm supposed to have said or done to her.

2. I have told her she must stop sending respond to dramatic/accusing/aggressive

emails or letters, and I will ignore and bin them.

The boundaries are working to some extent in that it has reduced nada's impact

on my life and allowed me to get out of Oz. However, as predicted in the book,

she has responded by ignoring my boundaries and escalating her efforts to regain

control. I now get letters with capital letters on the envelope so I will not

recognise her handwriting and accidentally open them. In her latest email she

tells me that my father is ill (as a result of stress caused by me - unclear

exactly what) and cannot meet for a family meal we had planned, and therefore I

must meet her alone instead - and without my husband. She tells me that by

refusing to meet her alone I am losing a person who loves me.

I know I have to just stick to my boundaries and ignore the deranged letters and

emails, but I am still finding it very stressful. Can anyone give me any tips

or techniques on how to handle the escalation - other boundaries ideas?

Thanks

Kate

[Guest guest]

When nada escalates and attempts boundary violation, a good consequence is to go

" no contact " at all, at least temporarily. Like " time out " or like sending a

toddler to sit alone in a corner, nada will be ignored and ostracized altogether

if she can't play by the rules.

-Annie

>

> Having read " stop walking on eggshells " I have set two boundaries for my

relationship with my nada:

>

> 1. I have told her I will not see her alone, but only in the context of family

outings with my brother and father and in public places, that way I hope to

avoid being screamed at and also to reduce her opportunities for inventing

things I'm supposed to have said or done to her.

>

> 2. I have told her she must stop sending respond to

dramatic/accusing/aggressive emails or letters, and I will ignore and bin them.

>

> The boundaries are working to some extent in that it has reduced nada's impact

on my life and allowed me to get out of Oz. However, as predicted in the book,

she has responded by ignoring my boundaries and escalating her efforts to regain

control. I now get letters with capital letters on the envelope so I will not

recognise her handwriting and accidentally open them. In her latest email she

tells me that my father is ill (as a result of stress caused by me - unclear

exactly what) and cannot meet for a family meal we had planned, and therefore I

must meet her alone instead - and without my husband. She tells me that by

refusing to meet her alone I am losing a person who loves me.

>

> I know I have to just stick to my boundaries and ignore the deranged letters

and emails, but I am still finding it very stressful. Can anyone give me any

tips or techniques on how to handle the escalation - other boundaries ideas?

>

> Thanks

> Kate

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your help Annie. That sounds like just the right step. She gets a

toddler-style learning experience (and as a bonus I get to get on with my life

without nada in it at all for a bit).

How long do you recommend I should be " no contact " ? eg do I contact her about

Christmas?

I have this feeling that I don't want to be the one who is " not speaking " to

nada - I suppose I want to maintain the moral high ground. I know that this

whole mindset is mistaken when dealing with a BP - whatever I do I can never

have the moral high ground in her mind - she will always believe and say that

I'm wrong and bad. It's just difficult to adjust my thinking - I'm a beginner

at thinking about her in this way.

Kate

>

> When nada escalates and attempts boundary violation, a good consequence is to

go " no contact " at all, at least temporarily. Like " time out " or like sending a

toddler to sit alone in a corner, nada will be ignored and ostracized altogether

if she can't play by the rules.

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

If you choose a no contact boundary for a given time frame, stick to it no

matter what. Even through Christmas, if you waffle or waver from a consequence

that will only encourage your nada to violate your boundaries in future.

The bonus is that you can have a peaceful, personality disorder-free Christmas.

(As annie says!) Forget about maintaining a moral high ground, its potentially

defeating for you to think that you should have to keep contact with your abuser

as a moral directive.

The boundary setting gets easier over time. Those BPD's will never 'like it' but

they don't have a choice.

> >

> > When nada escalates and attempts boundary violation, a good consequence is

to go " no contact " at all, at least temporarily. Like " time out " or like sending

a toddler to sit alone in a corner, nada will be ignored and ostracized

altogether if she can't play by the rules.

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The nature of the consequence and the duration of the consequence is something

only you can figure out; you know your nada better than anyone and have the best

chance at guessing what might work best.

If you've let your nada get used to phoning you every day, for example, telling

her you won't have any contact with her at all for 6 months is pretty extreme.

The technique that I think is in the book " Stop Walking On Eggshells " is in

three parts. First, you clearly state the boundary. That part I believe you

have done already: you set up a couple of clear boundaries or rules. (example:

" Its not OK to just drop in, mom. I need you to call me first so that we can

agree on a time for you to come by for a visit. " )

When nada violates the boundary the first time, you tell her, " Mom, remember

that I said that I need you to call me first from now on? Its not OK to just

drop in; if you do that again I'll have to stop having any contact with you for

a month. "

When she violates the boundary the second time (virtually guaranteed) you remind

her that since she chose to not abide by the rule or boundary, you are now going

to go " no contact " (or whatever) for the amount of time you stated you would.

So, you're not just springing it on her: you give her the rule and you tell her

the consequence; you allow her one " error " and remind her of the consequence;

but if she violates the rule a second time its clearly a power play on her part

and you enforce the consequence.

-Annie

> >

> > When nada escalates and attempts boundary violation, a good consequence is

to go " no contact " at all, at least temporarily. Like " time out " or like sending

a toddler to sit alone in a corner, nada will be ignored and ostracized

altogether if she can't play by the rules.

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My Nada is a Waif and when I set boundries 10 months ago she has done the

abandonment thing to me and the good old silent treatment.

I know a lot of you would be saying lucky me what am I complaining about but,

it makes me so angry as it is a form of passive control also. She has done this

many times over my life. If I don't " BE THERE FOR HER " and all her dramas and

poor me sagas she wipes me off the planet.

In the past I have given in and said sorry and forgiven her behaviour and felt

sorry for her. Again councelling and rescuing her.

After learning of her gambling away $30 000 this time I am standing strong and

I'm finally prepared to let go of the relationship. As I realised she will never

change. I have longed for her to change all my life. I can't be there anymore

to pick up the pieces.

I have realised the relationship was purely about her and I really got nothing

from it anyway.

The decision was I have contact and drama and be her life support or set

boundries and have her angry at me for doing so and be rejected as the unloving

daughter.

I chose the 2nd option because for the first time in my life at 40 I believe I

am loving and thanks to learning of BPD I deserve to cut the apron strings and

have my own HEALTHY LIFE.

Boundries are hard but I believe it is harder being involved on their

terms!!!!!!!!!!

Kazam

>

> Having read " stop walking on eggshells " I have set two boundaries for my

relationship with my nada:

>

> 1. I have told her I will not see her alone, but only in the context of family

outings with my brother and father and in public places, that way I hope to

avoid being screamed at and also to reduce her opportunities for inventing

things I'm supposed to have said or done to her.

>

> 2. I have told her she must stop sending respond to

dramatic/accusing/aggressive emails or letters, and I will ignore and bin them.

>

> The boundaries are working to some extent in that it has reduced nada's impact

on my life and allowed me to get out of Oz. However, as predicted in the book,

she has responded by ignoring my boundaries and escalating her efforts to regain

control. I now get letters with capital letters on the envelope so I will not

recognise her handwriting and accidentally open them. In her latest email she

tells me that my father is ill (as a result of stress caused by me - unclear

exactly what) and cannot meet for a family meal we had planned, and therefore I

must meet her alone instead - and without my husband. She tells me that by

refusing to meet her alone I am losing a person who loves me.

>

> I know I have to just stick to my boundaries and ignore the deranged letters

and emails, but I am still finding it very stressful. Can anyone give me any

tips or techniques on how to handle the escalation - other boundaries ideas?

>

> Thanks

> Kate

>

[Guest guest]

OMG Kazam, my nada is exactly the same. Nada is a waif/witch and if I don't do

exactly as she says when she says it I get ignored for lengthy periods of time.

But nada says I am the one that abandons her. Ughh

I also get the weepy, gasping, exasperated voice messages about mundane things

when she's in the waif mode. As if she thinks I am going to call her back with

any concern whatsoever for her antics. I could care less.

> >

> > Having read " stop walking on eggshells " I have set two boundaries for my

relationship with my nada:

> >

> > 1. I have told her I will not see her alone, but only in the context of

family outings with my brother and father and in public places, that way I hope

to avoid being screamed at and also to reduce her opportunities for inventing

things I'm supposed to have said or done to her.

> >

> > 2. I have told her she must stop sending respond to

dramatic/accusing/aggressive emails or letters, and I will ignore and bin them.

> >

> > The boundaries are working to some extent in that it has reduced nada's

impact on my life and allowed me to get out of Oz. However, as predicted in the

book, she has responded by ignoring my boundaries and escalating her efforts to

regain control. I now get letters with capital letters on the envelope so I

will not recognise her handwriting and accidentally open them. In her latest

email she tells me that my father is ill (as a result of stress caused by me -

unclear exactly what) and cannot meet for a family meal we had planned, and

therefore I must meet her alone instead - and without my husband. She tells me

that by refusing to meet her alone I am losing a person who loves me.

> >

> > I know I have to just stick to my boundaries and ignore the deranged letters

and emails, but I am still finding it very stressful. Can anyone give me any

tips or techniques on how to handle the escalation - other boundaries ideas?

> >

> > Thanks

> > Kate

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kazam, I can relate exactly - I have to be there constantly for her " poor me "

dramas and if I slip up (or am tripped up) just once she explodes in rage.

She's the constant " victim " of apparently unprovoked attacks by her boss, her

colleagues, the neighbours, the local MP, my Dad's family, her ex friends, her

ex friends' children, my brother's teacher, my brother's hockey coach, the

police, her doctor, her doctor's receptionist... They too get explosion then

silent treatment, and I have to hear about it on the phone and sympathise

otherwise I'm being unkind and the laser beam of hatred swings over to point at

me and I'm the ogre for a while.

Meanwhile I get no support at all for *real* dramas in my life. When I was in

hospital last year, nada was too busy to visit. When I split up with my

ex-boyfriend of several years and phoned in tears, nada said it was inconvenient

since the family had all got to know him.

What is " waif " and " witch " ?

[Guest guest]

" Waif " and " Witch " are two of the sub-types of bpd mothers that the book

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " describes. The other two are " Hermit " and

" Queen. " I believe the way the author makes those distinctions is that the

" Waif " -bpd has a lot of dependent-pd traits, the " Queen " has a lot of

narcissistic-pd traits, the " Witch " has a lot of antisocial-pd traits, and I'm

not sure about the " Hermit. " Maybe she has avoidant-pd traits. But its a good

book to read about the kinds of damage that bpd mothers do to their kids and how

to deal with it. Other good books are " Surviving a Borderline Parent " , and " Stop

Walking On Eggshells " (and its workbook) which is more about managing a

relationship with a bpd SO as opposed to a bpd parent.

It sounds to me like you are still very oppressed by your nada (bpd mom.) She's

got you terrorized by her rage to be at her constant beck and call, as though

you are her servant. Rage is an effective manipulative tool; most people like

to avoid confrontation and will back away from someone who is angry and

threatening, and us KOs have been especially conditioned from birth to fear our

nada and obey/cater to nada or risk her rage.

Your nada is a bully.

Only you can decide how much of her bullying you are willing to put up with;

only you can set up your boundaries and enforce them. Or you can choose to just

let things go on as they are and live with it. As an adult, its totally your

decision and choice.

I suggest starting with " SWOE " and the workbook, and then the other books. And

keep us posted, we're here for you.

-Annie

>

> Kazam, I can relate exactly - I have to be there constantly for her " poor me "

dramas and if I slip up (or am tripped up) just once she explodes in rage.

>

> She's the constant " victim " of apparently unprovoked attacks by her boss, her

colleagues, the neighbours, the local MP, my Dad's family, her ex friends, her

ex friends' children, my brother's teacher, my brother's hockey coach, the

police, her doctor, her doctor's receptionist... They too get explosion then

silent treatment, and I have to hear about it on the phone and sympathise

otherwise I'm being unkind and the laser beam of hatred swings over to point at

me and I'm the ogre for a while.

>

> Meanwhile I get no support at all for *real* dramas in my life. When I was in

hospital last year, nada was too busy to visit. When I split up with my

ex-boyfriend of several years and phoned in tears, nada said it was inconvenient

since the family had all got to know him.

>

> What is " waif " and " witch " ?

>

[Guest guest]

Annie

Thanks very much for your support. It shocked me (in a good way) to read your

comment that my nada is a bully. I have always been the one who was accused of

being the " bully " by nada and always half believed it - at least I thought I was

the " tough one " , and have always thought of her as vulnerable.

But you are right of course, raging in order to get control is bullying, she is

a bully! Living in fear and endlessly forgiving cycles of hurtful behaviour is

being a victim of a bully.

But how do you beat a bully? Stand up to her (hit her back with some home

truths or things designed to be painful to her? If I give any kind of reply at

all during one of her campaigns, I only get more abuse back and the thing

escalates) or keep away from her (go NC permanently?)

Thanks again for the books and definitions. I have SWOE (absolutely

light-bulb!) and I will get hold of " Understanding the Borderline Mother " now.

I will have to think about the Waif/Queen/Witch/Hermit distinction. Right now

all seem to apply!

Kate

[Guest guest]

In this case, I think you stand up to the bully by refusing to

engage in her battle. Hitting back won't work. As you've seen,

it only escalates the battle. You have to remember that her

brain does not work like a normal person's. You can't expect her

to react to your reactions like a normal person does. Pretty

much any reaction from you is a " win " for her, and if she thinks

she's winning she's going to keep engaging in the same

behaviors, so the way for you to win is to not give her that

reaction.

My method of dealing with my nada's behavior is to give her one

warning that I'm not willing to discuss a subject with her, and

then if she persists I hang up the phone or leave, as

appropriate. In my case, that's working fairly well because she

wants contact with me more than she wants to say the obnoxious

things that I won't listen to. That's not true of all nadas.

Sometimes the only way to not not engage in their battles is to

not have contact at all.

At 06:18 PM 11/16/2009 Kate wrote:

>Thanks very much for your support. It shocked me (in a good

>way) to read your comment that my nada is a bully. I have

>always been the one who was accused of being the " bully " by

>nada and always half believed it - at least I thought I was the

> " tough one " , and have always thought of her as vulnerable.

>

>But you are right of course, raging in order to get control is

>bullying, she is a bully! Living in fear and endlessly

>forgiving cycles of hurtful behaviour is being a victim of a

>bully.

>

>But how do you beat a bully? Stand up to her (hit her back

>with some home truths or things designed to be painful to

>her? If I give any kind of reply at all during one of her

>campaigns, I only get more abuse back and the thing escalates)

>or keep away from her (go NC permanently?)

>

>Thanks again for the books and definitions. I have SWOE

>(absolutely light-bulb!) and I will get hold of " Understanding

>the Borderline Mother " now. I will have to think about the

>Waif/Queen/Witch/Hermit distinction. Right now all seem to

>apply!

>

>Kate

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Kate,

I'll pass on the wisdom my therapist taught me: Boundaries are for YOU, not for

HER.

Boundaries are where you will stand your ground. They define what hill you're

willing to die on. They are for you to know how much you're willing to put up

with. Nothing you can say or dictate or demand of her will change her

behavior... maybe temporarily at least, but not permanently... she is bpd... she

WILL be heard!

That said, decide where your emotional moat is... fill it with water... when she

gets close, draw up the bridge and release the alligators... and go back inside

to your family, friends, etc. Let the crazy woman rant in the yard...

Once I realized that nothing I say or do can/will influence anything she

says/does... it became a whole lot easier to just let her rant. Of course it's

always 2 steps forward, one step back... but that's still progress.

Lynnette - a fond friend of alligators!

>

> Having read " stop walking on eggshells " I have set two boundaries for my

relationship with my nada:

>

> 1. I have told her I will not see her alone, but only in the context of family

outings with my brother and father and in public places, that way I hope to

avoid being screamed at and also to reduce her opportunities for inventing

things I'm supposed to have said or done to her.

>

> 2. I have told her she must stop sending respond to

dramatic/accusing/aggressive emails or letters, and I will ignore and bin them.

>

> The boundaries are working to some extent in that it has reduced nada's impact

on my life and allowed me to get out of Oz. However, as predicted in the book,

she has responded by ignoring my boundaries and escalating her efforts to regain

control. I now get letters with capital letters on the envelope so I will not

recognise her handwriting and accidentally open them. In her latest email she

tells me that my father is ill (as a result of stress caused by me - unclear

exactly what) and cannot meet for a family meal we had planned, and therefore I

must meet her alone instead - and without my husband. She tells me that by

refusing to meet her alone I am losing a person who loves me.

>

> I know I have to just stick to my boundaries and ignore the deranged letters

and emails, but I am still finding it very stressful. Can anyone give me any

tips or techniques on how to handle the escalation - other boundaries ideas?

>

> Thanks

> Kate

>

[Guest guest]

Kate,

You've made a good step toward setting boundaries. Remember, boundaries are

about controlling what you will or will not do, not controlling what your nada

does or does not do - that will never happen. She will still interpret them as

your trying to control her - and will escalate to regain control. The best way

to respond to escalation (unless there is threat of physical harm) is to NOT

respond.

Think of how you would handle a toddler spiraling out of control and ramping up

to tantrum state - stay calm, restate the boundaries/rules. If the actions

toward you are one-way, as with the letters/emails, then block the emails,

and/or don't open letters from " unknowns. " It's hard, but if you are persistent

and consistent, she will likely give up. She won't like it, but mabe she'll

eventually tire herself out.

Suzy