Re: Boy Scouts

June 20, 2004

a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

Larry

June 20, 2004

Good thought. I've been following this entire deal very closely, and

didn't even think of that.

Of course it would, when you asked the Camp Director or Program

Director if you could call an ambulance, they'd definitely want to

know what was wrong with the camper/scoutmaster/staff member.

It violates HIPPA, violates Texas Administrative Code Title 25- Part

1- Chapter 157- Subchapter C- Rule 157.36- Number 26, endangers

life...

Would you feel comfortable to know that your kid, even if bitten by a

rattlesnake, has to wait before the Camp Health Officer can call in

an ambulance for him?

It's sad that the council seems to be wanting to not lose money, and

is endangering lives while carrying out this plan.

-Matt Kuhl

> a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

> violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

> Larry

June 20, 2004

Good thought. I've been following this entire deal very closely, and

didn't even think of that.

Of course it would, when you asked the Camp Director or Program

Director if you could call an ambulance, they'd definitely want to

know what was wrong with the camper/scoutmaster/staff member.

It violates HIPPA, violates Texas Administrative Code Title 25- Part

1- Chapter 157- Subchapter C- Rule 157.36- Number 26, endangers

life...

Would you feel comfortable to know that your kid, even if bitten by a

rattlesnake, has to wait before the Camp Health Officer can call in

an ambulance for him?

It's sad that the council seems to be wanting to not lose money, and

is endangering lives while carrying out this plan.

-Matt Kuhl

> a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

> violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

> Larry

June 20, 2004

I want to clarify this statement:

" However, patient care is compromized when he is notified BEFORE EMS is

contacted, in ANY situation. It is not that we are requesting his permission

to call EMS, but the mere notification delays the timely transfer of patient

care, and transfer to an appropriate medical facility, when the Camp

Director/Program Director is negligent on answering their radio traffic. "

It is not that we are requesting his permission..... that means I dont care

whether he consents or not, if we need an ambulance, I am calling one " .

RE: Boy Scouts

So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad?

How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all?

Interesting thought pattern

Mike

From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his

rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be

educated. They KNOW all.

June 20, 2004

I want to clarify this statement:

" However, patient care is compromized when he is notified BEFORE EMS is

contacted, in ANY situation. It is not that we are requesting his permission

to call EMS, but the mere notification delays the timely transfer of patient

care, and transfer to an appropriate medical facility, when the Camp

Director/Program Director is negligent on answering their radio traffic. "

It is not that we are requesting his permission..... that means I dont care

whether he consents or not, if we need an ambulance, I am calling one " .

RE: Boy Scouts

So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad?

How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all?

Interesting thought pattern

Mike

From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his

rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be

educated. They KNOW all.

June 20, 2004

I want to clarify this statement:

" However, patient care is compromized when he is notified BEFORE EMS is

contacted, in ANY situation. It is not that we are requesting his permission

to call EMS, but the mere notification delays the timely transfer of patient

care, and transfer to an appropriate medical facility, when the Camp

Director/Program Director is negligent on answering their radio traffic. "

It is not that we are requesting his permission..... that means I dont care

whether he consents or not, if we need an ambulance, I am calling one " .

RE: Boy Scouts

So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad?

How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all?

Interesting thought pattern

Mike

From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his

rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be

educated. They KNOW all.

June 20, 2004

Well Mr. Hoskins (formalities now?)

2 quick points, first, past experiences are relevant. They taught us that

Mast don't auto-transfuse and that CISM ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Second, past experiences, even isolated ones, are what makes our

impressions. New medic, new situation, easier said than done.

I am curious though, exactly why the policy was put in place?

If you care to continue the discussion regarding interpretation of the

Administrative Code, we should take that off list.

Mike

June 20, 2004

Depends on what gets signed when they sign up for camp, do they not usually

have a medical form to fill out? I would think that if there were a clause

concerning HIPPA, it would be there.

Mike

'

Re: Boy Scouts

a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

Larry

June 20, 2004

Depends on what gets signed when they sign up for camp, do they not usually

have a medical form to fill out? I would think that if there were a clause

concerning HIPPA, it would be there.

Mike

'

Re: Boy Scouts

a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

Larry

June 20, 2004

Texas Administrative Code is very relevant here. I will not take that

discussion off the list. Although I am not an attorney, I do have 68

semester hours of nothing but law & criminal justice. I am well versed in

reading and applying Texas law.

You know before I posted that, and even in the past 2 weeks- I have spoken to

a well known EMS Attorney X 2 (2 of them) about this, and an attorney that

handles medical malpractice claims, as well as several experienced Paramedics &

EMS Educators. They agree with me. TAC is there, it effects us in EMS,

and violating it can cause revocation of certification or licensure. If you

disagree with this, refer back to Gene Gandy's post from earlier this morning.

He plainly states you are putting your patch on the line by being affiliated

with this situation.

Why was this policy put into place: Finances (as was stated by the camp

director, and support services director), and perception- an ambulance in camp

means something bad has happend. Two reasons this policy was put into place.

Would any of the lists legal eagles like to say anything about the application

of TAC here?

When it comes to a decision to call EMS- past experiences are irrelevant. That

is my opinion, and that will not change. Leave patient care to the

professionals who know what they are doing. BSA chooses not to. They don't

know Emergency Medicine, they don't fund their health lodges, they even tried to

pay $50.00 a week to the medical staff. (Pay isnt that big of a deal) but you

get what you pay for. Their own admission says they have NO medical training,

yet they proclaim they are right & refuse to accept responsibility for their

actions.

During my time at Worth-

EVERY patient I sent to the ER was diagnosed with the same problem as what they

were sent in for (only 1 was sent in by EMS):

Corneal Tear, Tibia FX, etc. NOT one of them came back different then what

we suspected and narrowed our findings down to in the field.

On the burn patient---- 11 y/o 40% 2nd degree burns. ER Doc stated if we

didnt do what we did in the field, then he would be going to Parkland Memorial.

As for calling you Mr. Hatfield, that was out of respect. Although I may still

be a Basic, and you a Paramedic, I still know my business when it comes to EMS

and Scouting. I didn't just join this bandwagon.

J. Hoskins

EMT/EMS Instructor

RE: Boy Scouts

Well Mr. Hoskins (formalities now?)

2 quick points, first, past experiences are relevant. They taught us that

Mast don't auto-transfuse and that CISM ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Second, past experiences, even isolated ones, are what makes our

impressions. New medic, new situation, easier said than done.

I am curious though, exactly why the policy was put in place?

If you care to continue the discussion regarding interpretation of the

Administrative Code, we should take that off list.

Mike

June 20, 2004

Texas Administrative Code is very relevant here. I will not take that

discussion off the list. Although I am not an attorney, I do have 68

semester hours of nothing but law & criminal justice. I am well versed in

reading and applying Texas law.

You know before I posted that, and even in the past 2 weeks- I have spoken to

a well known EMS Attorney X 2 (2 of them) about this, and an attorney that

handles medical malpractice claims, as well as several experienced Paramedics &

EMS Educators. They agree with me. TAC is there, it effects us in EMS,

and violating it can cause revocation of certification or licensure. If you

disagree with this, refer back to Gene Gandy's post from earlier this morning.

He plainly states you are putting your patch on the line by being affiliated

with this situation.

Why was this policy put into place: Finances (as was stated by the camp

director, and support services director), and perception- an ambulance in camp

means something bad has happend. Two reasons this policy was put into place.

Would any of the lists legal eagles like to say anything about the application

of TAC here?

When it comes to a decision to call EMS- past experiences are irrelevant. That

is my opinion, and that will not change. Leave patient care to the

professionals who know what they are doing. BSA chooses not to. They don't

know Emergency Medicine, they don't fund their health lodges, they even tried to

pay $50.00 a week to the medical staff. (Pay isnt that big of a deal) but you

get what you pay for. Their own admission says they have NO medical training,

yet they proclaim they are right & refuse to accept responsibility for their

actions.

During my time at Worth-

EVERY patient I sent to the ER was diagnosed with the same problem as what they

were sent in for (only 1 was sent in by EMS):

Corneal Tear, Tibia FX, etc. NOT one of them came back different then what

we suspected and narrowed our findings down to in the field.

On the burn patient---- 11 y/o 40% 2nd degree burns. ER Doc stated if we

didnt do what we did in the field, then he would be going to Parkland Memorial.

As for calling you Mr. Hatfield, that was out of respect. Although I may still

be a Basic, and you a Paramedic, I still know my business when it comes to EMS

and Scouting. I didn't just join this bandwagon.

J. Hoskins

EMT/EMS Instructor

RE: Boy Scouts

Well Mr. Hoskins (formalities now?)

2 quick points, first, past experiences are relevant. They taught us that

Mast don't auto-transfuse and that CISM ain't all it's cracked up to be.

Second, past experiences, even isolated ones, are what makes our

impressions. New medic, new situation, easier said than done.

I am curious though, exactly why the policy was put in place?

If you care to continue the discussion regarding interpretation of the

Administrative Code, we should take that off list.

Mike

June 20, 2004

Boy Scouts say HIPPA doesnt apply, as does the Texas Medical Records Privacy

act....,..... They read (attempt to read when they are dealing with me) all

Patient Contact Reports & read the log book with patient name, age, what c/c &

findings are, and treatment.

jh

Re: Boy Scouts

a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

Larry

June 20, 2004

This is absurd. My son wants in the BSA, but

without a change in policy, there's no way.

I'd find it safe to assume, since being involved in

the Boy Scouts isn't cheap, that most families

involved have some sort of health insurance, and that

the insurance would cover any medical costs incurred.

On the other hand, if BSA is concerned about cost,

they need to look at the cost of defending themselves

in, and potentially losing, and liability, failure to

render air, and possibly even a wrongful death

lawsuit.

At least I know that if I was in that position,

they could go ahead and fire me, but I'd drive away

knowing that the kid had a chance, and that I did my

job right, irregardless of some idiotic policy.

Jeff Ellison

--- wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

> Re: Working for the Boy Scouts at a summer camp

>

> I would not advise any medic of any level of

> certification to become

> involved with the Boy Scouts if the stories that I

> have heard are correct. You

> would be putting your certificate or license on the

> line.

>

> The Boy Scouts have a policy that says that no

> member of medical staff can

> call an ambulance for a patient, even in an

> immediately life threatening

> situation, without prior autorization from the camp

> director. This policy, as I

> am told, is based upon economic concerns.

>

> Medics take orders from their medical directors, not

> camp directors. A Boy

> Scout camp director has no qualifications to make a

> medical transport

> decision, and when he interferes with treatment he

> exposes not only himself and his

> organization but also the medic to legal liability.

> A policy that requires

> authorization from a nonmedical person before

> calling an ambulance is nothing

> but ignorant. No medic of any level of

> certification can allow an employer

> to dictate medical treatment if the directives are

> not coming from a physician

> medical director. Lay persons do not have the

> legal right to determine

> medical standard of care, and treatment and

> transport decisions are medical

> decisions, not lay decisions. My information is

> that the camp director at this

> camp deems himself able to overturn even the medical

> director's orders to

> call an ambulance. If that information is not

> correct, then please somebody

> correct me.

>

> From my understanding, the Boy Scouts do not provide

> adequate supplies and

> equipment for medical personnel working their

> campsites. The Boy Scouts is

> a national organization with huge resources.

> Failure to provide adequate

> medical care would seem to be an invitation for

> damages.

>

> Based upon what I've been able to find out, I would

> not advise any parent to

> allow his child to attend a Boy Scout camp, nor

> would I advise any medic of

> any level of certification to become involved with

> the Boy Scouts. They are

> a disaster waiting to happen.

>

> I understand that the Boy Scouts are currently

> trying to find medically

> trained personnel to staff their " health lodge " at a

> camp in Palo Pinto County.

> The reason that they are looking for medics is that

> they fired the medic

> they had for calling an ambulance for a patient with

> significant burns without

> their prior consent. They have said that their

> policy is not negotiable.

> Therefore, if your patient sustains a rattlesnake

> bite with envenomation,

> requires helo medical transport to a facility that

> has CroFab, but your camp

> director doesn't happen to have his radio on, you

> will be fired for calling either

> an ambulance or a helo.

>

> If you're tempted to help out the Boy Scouts, please

> look into all the

> ramifications of doing so before you do it. My take

> is that you'd be putting your

> certificate or license on the line if you followed

> their rules. Their rules

> are contrary to good sense, good medical practice,

> and standard of care.

> You cannot agree to practice at a level below

> standard of care just because

> your employer demands it.

>

> Look before you leap, folks.

>

> Gene G.

>

> In a message dated 6/19/2004 12:54:45 PM Central

> Daylight Time,

> medic34255@... writes:

>

> I've worked several times over the years as a camp

> medic the last in '99 for

> circle ten councel out of Dallas and never had much

> of a problem with camp

> directors. They always gave me room to do what I

> thought needed done and in

> fact were very supportive. I believe they truly knew

> that a medic was far

> more capable of doing that job than a Rn, LVN or the

> advanced first aid folks

> they had before. But it is a difficult job to do.

> Trying to keep 400 kids and

> their adult leaders happy and healthy without any

> real equipement and the

> nearest EMS 45 - 6o minutes away. You read every

> summer about a camper that dies

> at a summer camp from asthma or another easily

> treated ailment or injury

> thenyou go back to sickbay and look at all the OTC

> drugs you have but nothing

> else. You shake your head maybe bang it against the

> wall a few times when the

> director tells you they just don't have the budget

> for it. A solution I was

> lucky enough to use only once though was having the

> service I worked for

> sponser the camp and they provided an ALS drug kit,

> monitor and other

> various equipement. Their med con even signed off

> and all they asked in return was

> for the medic to drive and park their supervisors

> car and for the camp to

> promote their service. That doesn't do you much good

> now but hang in there a lot

> of kids are depending on you. If you have any

> questions for me feel free to

> conact off group.

> LARRY

>

> Wiseman wrote:

> Sounds like a not so good working environment. I

> would find a different

> one....quick!!

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " J. Hoskins {Laptop} "

>

> To: < >

> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:13 PM

> Subject: Longhorn Council Policy

> Applies even during Life Or

> Death emergency

>

> > Oh yeah, failed to mention- that the council

> policy is zero tollerance,

> that you must contact the camp director PRIOR to

> calling EMS or Helo, EVEN

> in a life or death emergency....... This is

> according to the Support

> Services Director. They are rationalizing this

> with the perception of EMS

> being in camp, and the financial implications on the

> council and parents for

> having to pay a bill.

> >

> > What do you do when the Camp Director and Program

> Director can't be found?

> Let the patient die? Regardless, if you call an

> EMS unit without their

> knowledge and approval- you get fired.

> >

> > Failed to mention that in my last post.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

>

> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//

>

=== message truncated ===

=====

Jeff H. Ellison

Webmaster/IT

Lifeline Training Associates

http://www.ltatraining.com

__________________________________________________

June 20, 2004

Jeff,

You mentioned that your son wants in the BSA, but without change in

policy, there's no way. - This policy isn't for all BSA activities or

all BSA councils, it's just ONE in North Texas.

The BSA is an awesome experience for boys, it teaches them respect,

morals, leadership, and allows them to have fun and learn new things.

This is just ONE council messing up at only summercamp. It isn't a

reason to keep your son away from the BSA if he wants to join.

-Matt Kuhl

> This is absurd. My son wants in the BSA, but

> without a change in policy, there's no way.

>

> I'd find it safe to assume, since being involved in

> the Boy Scouts isn't cheap, that most families

> involved have some sort of health insurance, and that

> the insurance would cover any medical costs incurred.

> On the other hand, if BSA is concerned about cost,

> they need to look at the cost of defending themselves

> in, and potentially losing, and liability, failure to

> render air, and possibly even a wrongful death

> lawsuit.

>

> At least I know that if I was in that position,

> they could go ahead and fire me, but I'd drive away

> knowing that the kid had a chance, and that I did my

> job right, irregardless of some idiotic policy.

>

> Jeff Ellison

June 20, 2004

BSA is a good program at the local (troop level). When you deal with councils

like Longhorn, no way. I was going to leave it " up in the air " but I was fired

for calling EMS to transport on 6/7/04, 24 hours after calling EMS. This was

as I was returning from PPGH on a corneal tear call.

You shouldnt have any problems at the Troop level. Without getting my Eagle

Scout I wouldnt have gotten any scholarships. What area do you live in Jeff?

Last summer at another camp- I was told they didnt need my AED , fancy medical

equipment, etc. This was at the close of camp. I said " you will be sorry- all

it will take is a patient dying or getting seriously injured. " Guess what, it

happend IN THE HEALTH LODGE. 41 y.o. male with no prior cardiac history had a

sudden cardiac arrest in the health lodge & died.

Your son can be in the BSA and do just fine without going to summer camp. It

really depends on the council.

Contact me off list if you would like more information on the BSA, etc.

J. Hoskins

EMT/EMS Instructor

Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 302 Hallsville Texas

Longhorn Council Policy

> Applies even during Life Or

> Death emergency

>

> > Oh yeah, failed to mention- that the council

> policy is zero tollerance,

> that you must contact the camp director PRIOR to

> calling EMS or Helo, EVEN

> in a life or death emergency....... This is

> according to the Support

> Services Director. They are rationalizing this

> with the perception of EMS

> being in camp, and the financial implications on the

> council and parents for

> having to pay a bill.

> >

> > What do you do when the Camp Director and Program

> Director can't be found?

> Let the patient die? Regardless, if you call an

> EMS unit without their

> knowledge and approval- you get fired.

> >

> > Failed to mention that in my last post.

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

>

> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

> To visit your group on the web, go to:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//

>

=== message truncated ===

=====

Jeff H. Ellison

Webmaster/IT

Lifeline Training Associates

http://www.ltatraining.com

__________________________________________________

June 20, 2004

Matt, you are right. As a member of the scouts as well, you hit it on the head.

Longhorn Council, as we both know has serious issues. After all, as you too

were on staff at WR, and saw some of what took place, I think you know what

issues I am talking about.

Longhorn Council has major problems. Dan Clifton & the executive staff need to

remove their cranium from the anal sphincter, as although I am not a doctor, one

can clearly see that they are suffering from a rectal-cranial inversion, by

allowing policies such as these to be in existance.

They have no concern over health & safety. I didnt even have, as you know,

oxygen in camp. Without the help of my assistant, I would have had nothing.

I am told last year, they didnt even have someone staffing the health lodge that

was a medical professional.

jh

Re: Boy Scouts

Jeff,

You mentioned that your son wants in the BSA, but without change in

policy, there's no way. - This policy isn't for all BSA activities or

all BSA councils, it's just ONE in North Texas.

The BSA is an awesome experience for boys, it teaches them respect,

morals, leadership, and allows them to have fun and learn new things.

This is just ONE council messing up at only summercamp. It isn't a

reason to keep your son away from the BSA if he wants to join.

-Matt Kuhl

> This is absurd. My son wants in the BSA, but

> without a change in policy, there's no way.

>

> I'd find it safe to assume, since being involved in

> the Boy Scouts isn't cheap, that most families

> involved have some sort of health insurance, and that

> the insurance would cover any medical costs incurred.

> On the other hand, if BSA is concerned about cost,

> they need to look at the cost of defending themselves

> in, and potentially losing, and liability, failure to

> render air, and possibly even a wrongful death

> lawsuit.

>

> At least I know that if I was in that position,

> they could go ahead and fire me, but I'd drive away

> knowing that the kid had a chance, and that I did my

> job right, irregardless of some idiotic policy.

>

> Jeff Ellison

June 20, 2004

.... To help other people at all times.

Seems like some people have forgotten the oath.

When I was 15 my cut his hand badly at a camp in west texas in the

Mountains. (Camp Buffalo Trail Council I belvie was its name)

They had an LVN and an EMT-P working the 1st aid station. They also

had a list of all EMS/MD's/Nurses/Medical staff ect., that were

attending camp that week, so if needed they had some sort of back up.

My brother needed stiches, so they found an MD from Dumas, Tx who was

the ER doc there, to come and look at my brother. With little

supplies, which included a suture kit the EMT-P had, and some free

pain Rx's that were samples, that he brought, he sutured up my

brother's hand. I think there were about 10-15 in all. They doc did

and awesome job. You can't even tell that there was ever anything

wrong. I don't know what his name was, but he was short and had a

brown " Goat-tee " . He was awesome, and I aplaud this camp in their

great staff. Too bad this camp your speaking off has to be the

exception, instead of the norm.

- Txbasic, NREMT-I

P.S. - Do the campers parents know of these things? I'm sure some of

those kids parents are doc's, lawyers, and emt's alike... sure would

be bad to have angry parents beating on the council doors wanting to

know what was going on.

> Boy Scouts say HIPPA doesnt apply, as does the Texas Medical

Records Privacy act....,..... They read (attempt to read when they

are dealing with me) all Patient Contact Reports & read the log book

with patient name, age, what c/c & findings are, and treatment.

>

> jh

> Re: Boy Scouts

>

> a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director

> violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules???

> Larry

>

June 20, 2004

So in regards to the requirements, what exactly is the requirement,

according to the BSA, of necessary equipment? Do they have a basic minimum

list? What does the medical director have to say about it all? Does he even

know the extent of the issues yet?

Who exactly writes the policy? Is this a local Council policy or do they

adopt the policies of the BSA in general? Does the BSA know what the local

policy states?

Mike

>>From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

>>They have no concern over health & safety. I didnt even have, as you

know, oxygen in camp. Without the help of my

>>assistant, I would have had nothing.

June 20, 2004

Longhorn Council 2 page medical protocol signed 3/2004 by the medical director

states " All Health Lodge personnel may perform skills and treatment upto their

level of training " .

He was made aware of the supply issue on 6/1/04. He had no control over the

supply issue, only the protocol that was given to the Health Officers.

Dan Clifton and Jeff s wrote this policy. BSA National has no control

over the local council when it comes to Health & Safety protocol.

There is no BSA requirement on equipment- only that you are required to have at

least a an EMT through Paramedic, RN or MD as your Health Officer on site, or

Red Cross Certified First Aid provider if EMS is within 5 minutes of the camp.

This is not the case at any of Longhorn's camps. Average EMS arrival time is

a minimum of 30 minutes.

jh

RE: Re: Boy Scouts

So in regards to the requirements, what exactly is the requirement,

according to the BSA, of necessary equipment? Do they have a basic minimum

list? What does the medical director have to say about it all? Does he even

know the extent of the issues yet?

Who exactly writes the policy? Is this a local Council policy or do they

adopt the policies of the BSA in general? Does the BSA know what the local

policy states?

Mike

>>From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

>>They have no concern over health & safety. I didnt even have, as you

know, oxygen in camp. Without the help of my

>>assistant, I would have had nothing.

June 20, 2004

In fact, the Medical Director made a site visit. Council still refused, even

though he said they were needed. I couldnt even get them to pay 10 bucks for

the RX he wrote for 30 ml vial of epi!

jh

RE: Re: Boy Scouts

So in regards to the requirements, what exactly is the requirement,

according to the BSA, of necessary equipment? Do they have a basic minimum

list? What does the medical director have to say about it all? Does he even

know the extent of the issues yet?

Who exactly writes the policy? Is this a local Council policy or do they

adopt the policies of the BSA in general? Does the BSA know what the local

policy states?

Mike

>>From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

>>They have no concern over health & safety. I didnt even have, as you

know, oxygen in camp. Without the help of my

>>assistant, I would have had nothing.

June 20, 2004

Well I don't think Jay meant it that way. The camp director/program

director were contacted about the authorization to transport by

ambulance but neither one answered their radios, so they did not really

know the entire story until after the ambulance arrived...I imagine.

Either way, I personally don't think it is up to a camp director or a

program director even if they are the surgeon general to decide patient

care if they are acting as the camp director or program director. If

they want to dictate patient care, become the health and safety officer

for the summer camp and assume all the responsibilities associated with

it.

On Sunday, Jun 20, 2004, at 15:47 US/Central, Hatfield composed:

> So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad?

>

> How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all?

>

> Interesting thought pattern

>

> Mike

>

> From: J. Hoskins {Laptop}

>

> It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his

> rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be

> educated. They KNOW all.

June 20, 2004

I have worked 12 summers at BSA camps the first when I was 16 the

last when I was 39 and they have policies that cover just about

everything imaginable. This situation how ever is sad due to the

number of campers that are left with inadequate medical coverage.

Just imagine as an EMS professional what it would be like to be

responsible for several hundred campers and adult leaders each week.

Then imagine doing this with minimal supplies and hardly any budget.

The campers are mostly 12-15 the leaders are from various

professions. The camp cost is way under other camps but if they can

afford ski boats, repelling towers and swimming pools then why

haven't they fixed this problem. When I was health officer with

Circle 10 council I was given a free hand as to treatment and

transport. My budget could have been larger but at least I had a

professional staff that tried to get everything I requested. I am

proud of the time I spent with Boy Scouts and I hate to see the

entire program suffer from the Long horn Councils policies. So

please keep in mind the young campers and let's use our collective

pull to find solutions we all can live with.

Larry

June 20, 2004

I tell you what the solution is. Demand a change in Longhorn's policies.

'

They and other councils can learn from the example that Longhorn has made, and

Longhorn, and other councils will be forced to play by the rules.