Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 I worked for 4 yers at a boysciut as a medic. During this time I found it very rewarding and had no problems with the equipment provided or with the camp director. If one needed to go to the hospital it was my decision how they went and I was never questioned. I think that from the way you are sayin things it must be each that each camp and director has their on rules. The camp I was at in Colorado City was great and I would recommend it as one good camp to work at.Just remember that camps are like Ambulance services one bad apple does not mean they are all bad. Gilliam EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 All excellent points and comments made on this topic. Great input from everyone. It is just really sad that the camp directors ego is this large where they think they know what is best for the scout even if it means the camp picking up the bill and having a scout transported by ambulance. In all honesty, what looks better? A kid transported code one to a nearby hospital from the camp because of 40% burns or a the scouts injuries getting worse because of 40% burns and dehydration? If I were a lay person camp director/program director and a scout had 40% burns, or any significant injury for that matter, I would strongly urge an ambulance be called as soon as possible but I would also respect the medics decision not to call if they don't want to and if they don't think if is necessary. I still don't see why the camp director/program director need to give the ok as to if a patient can be transported by ambulance. The final outcome of this will be interesting to see. I don't understand how to Boy Scouts would be able to " win " this kind of argument since everything was well documented and verified by witnesses. The camp director/program director is doubting two medics with combined experience of of 32 years in EMS. On Sunday, Jun 20, 2004, at 08:37 US/Central, BRB composed: > I have to agree with you there. I have done work for boy scouts, 4H, > etc and never had any problems. The thing that makes the difference is > during the interview process, make it crystal clear who is in charge > of " patients " . Camp directors need to be aware that the kiddos are > their responsibility until they become a patient. At that time you > control the outcome. That has to be made clear. And also, they have to > be aware of THEIR liability to include legal actions that can arise if > they set such unpractical rules. Also be sure to know who the medical > director is and try to contact him/her before stepping foot on camp > grounds. If the two of you have a mutual understanding then all will > be good. If you get fired for caring for a kiddo and having them > transported, then consider that a blessing. > > Be safe, > > Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 But they claim they are not questioning the medical judgment- only the transport decision- which I guess is no longer a medical decision, at least according to BSA......... I am sorry but that is questioning medical judgment. Re: Boy Scouts All excellent points and comments made on this topic. Great input from everyone. It is just really sad that the camp directors ego is this large where they think they know what is best for the scout even if it means the camp picking up the bill and having a scout transported by ambulance. In all honesty, what looks better? A kid transported code one to a nearby hospital from the camp because of 40% burns or a the scouts injuries getting worse because of 40% burns and dehydration? If I were a lay person camp director/program director and a scout had 40% burns, or any significant injury for that matter, I would strongly urge an ambulance be called as soon as possible but I would also respect the medics decision not to call if they don't want to and if they don't think if is necessary. I still don't see why the camp director/program director need to give the ok as to if a patient can be transported by ambulance. The final outcome of this will be interesting to see. I don't understand how to Boy Scouts would be able to " win " this kind of argument since everything was well documented and verified by witnesses. The camp director/program director is doubting two medics with combined experience of of 32 years in EMS. On Sunday, Jun 20, 2004, at 08:37 US/Central, BRB composed: > I have to agree with you there. I have done work for boy scouts, 4H, > etc and never had any problems. The thing that makes the difference is > during the interview process, make it crystal clear who is in charge > of " patients " . Camp directors need to be aware that the kiddos are > their responsibility until they become a patient. At that time you > control the outcome. That has to be made clear. And also, they have to > be aware of THEIR liability to include legal actions that can arise if > they set such unpractical rules. Also be sure to know who the medical > director is and try to contact him/her before stepping foot on camp > grounds. If the two of you have a mutual understanding then all will > be good. If you get fired for caring for a kiddo and having them > transported, then consider that a blessing. > > Be safe, > > Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 >>I still don't see why the camp director/program director need to give >>the ok as to if a patient can be transported by ambulance. My thoughts on the subject...... Does anyone know 'why' the camp director would want to have the final decision as to transportation? From a logical perspective, it may be as simple as educating the director as to ones abilities to make sound medical judgements. This could well be down the same avenue as protocols that 'require' HELO. By saying that, I mean that this program director, may have, at one time had 'yahoo' medics that called EMS for transport for every hang nail that came through sick call. If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. If that's the case, then he is making a decision based on past experiences, and needs to be educated, but not crucified. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 >>I still don't see why the camp director/program director need to give >>the ok as to if a patient can be transported by ambulance. My thoughts on the subject...... Does anyone know 'why' the camp director would want to have the final decision as to transportation? From a logical perspective, it may be as simple as educating the director as to ones abilities to make sound medical judgements. This could well be down the same avenue as protocols that 'require' HELO. By saying that, I mean that this program director, may have, at one time had 'yahoo' medics that called EMS for transport for every hang nail that came through sick call. If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. If that's the case, then he is making a decision based on past experiences, and needs to be educated, but not crucified. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 I heard an excellent example of criteria - Would it pass the 'front page test'? IOW, would the Camp Director (or anyone else, for that matter) want to see the repercussions of their decision on the front page of the 'New York Times', all the way down to the 'Resume Speed, NM Weekly Bugle'? As a corollary, would the Camp Director look forward to a visit from Morley Safer and the unyielding eye of '60 minutes'? The BSA has taken a beating in recent years in the Media. Perhaps some Camp Directors and the other paid scouters need to reexamine this before a BIG stink bomb goes off. Not just the political repercussions; what of the legal exposure that a bone-headed move would have on the organization? THis would be a test of ethics and moral courage, that I believe everyone on this list would pass. If you can read this, thank a teacher If you can comment freely on this, thank a soldier Larry RN LP EMSI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 I heard an excellent example of criteria - Would it pass the 'front page test'? IOW, would the Camp Director (or anyone else, for that matter) want to see the repercussions of their decision on the front page of the 'New York Times', all the way down to the 'Resume Speed, NM Weekly Bugle'? As a corollary, would the Camp Director look forward to a visit from Morley Safer and the unyielding eye of '60 minutes'? The BSA has taken a beating in recent years in the Media. Perhaps some Camp Directors and the other paid scouters need to reexamine this before a BIG stink bomb goes off. Not just the political repercussions; what of the legal exposure that a bone-headed move would have on the organization? THis would be a test of ethics and moral courage, that I believe everyone on this list would pass. If you can read this, thank a teacher If you can comment freely on this, thank a soldier Larry RN LP EMSI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Analogy, for the sake of argument, I'll change it to say, it would reduce any funding that could have supported another program elsewhere in BSA. Understand that, I do not agree with the decision of the program leader/director etc, I am however very curious to know his rational behind his decision, back to my original post, has he dealt with 'yahoo' medics in the past who called a bus for everything that came through, and if so, he needs to be educated. Mike Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Analogy, for the sake of argument, I'll change it to say, it would reduce any funding that could have supported another program elsewhere in BSA. Understand that, I do not agree with the decision of the program leader/director etc, I am however very curious to know his rational behind his decision, back to my original post, has he dealt with 'yahoo' medics in the past who called a bus for everything that came through, and if so, he needs to be educated. Mike Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Analogy, for the sake of argument, I'll change it to say, it would reduce any funding that could have supported another program elsewhere in BSA. Understand that, I do not agree with the decision of the program leader/director etc, I am however very curious to know his rational behind his decision, back to my original post, has he dealt with 'yahoo' medics in the past who called a bus for everything that came through, and if so, he needs to be educated. Mike Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Disclosure of protected health information to a camp director is prohibited by HIPAA. There is no need to know. Such a disclosure would not be for the purposes of treatment, payment, or health care operations. Camp directors are not a part of health care operations. Therefore, disclosure of any PHI would be a violation. Gene Gandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Mike, Please recall that a minor cannot execute a valid authorization for disclosure. Only the minor's legal representative can. Whether or not a prospective blanket authorization for disclosure would suffice, I am not willing to say. I would not count on it without a specific ruling from CMS on that particular issue. Also, please remember to differentiate between consent and authorization. Consent is for treatment, and a minor may be treated under implied consent when a parent or legal rep is unavailable. Authorization is for disclosure of information for other than TPO, and a minor cannot execute a legal authorization. Gene G. In a message dated 6/20/2004 4:25:33 PM Central Daylight Time, hatfield@... writes: Depends on what gets signed when they sign up for camp, do they not usually have a medical form to fill out? I would think that if there were a clause concerning HIPPA, it would be there. Mike ' Re: Boy Scouts a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules??? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 The question has arisen as to whether BSA camps are even covered by HIPAA. Any organization that provides medical care is covered. Period. Reread Chapter 181, Texas Health and Safety Code if there are any questions. BSA is not exempt from the Act. Plus, the certifying/licensing agency is authorized to decertify or unlicense any individual who violates its provision. That applies to individual medics. Gene Gandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Mutual of Omaha is no longer the insrance provider. Also, it is in attempt to reduce workers comp claims. Alot of this is coming out of the council's pockets. Camp Directors/Program Directors are professionally paid BSA staffers. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Mutual of Omaha is no longer the insrance provider. Also, it is in attempt to reduce workers comp claims. Alot of this is coming out of the council's pockets. Camp Directors/Program Directors are professionally paid BSA staffers. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Mutual of Omaha is no longer the insrance provider. Also, it is in attempt to reduce workers comp claims. Alot of this is coming out of the council's pockets. Camp Directors/Program Directors are professionally paid BSA staffers. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. jh Re: Boy Scouts << If the program is responsible for the ambulance fees, you could run a huge bill up quickly, killing any profit they could have thought about making. >> BSA Boyscouts of America are non profit and the majority of its adult participants are volunteers that are trained. They also good have insurance through Mutual of Omaha which is used as secondary insurance when the insured patient's primary doesnt cover.If patient has no insurance then it covers them a 100% if accident/injury happened at a scout camp or scout outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad? How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all? Interesting thought pattern Mike From: J. Hoskins {Laptop} It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad? How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all? Interesting thought pattern Mike From: J. Hoskins {Laptop} It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Well Mr. Hatfield- I have spoken extensively with the Camp Director, Program Director, and Support Services Director. This is how I know so much about this issue. Gene Gandy has hit the nail on the head. Regardless, any past experience they have had is irrelevant. One can not rationalize using that thought process when it comes to patient care. New medics, new situation. Hell, even the Medical Director concurred with the treatment. However, the Program Director, Camp Director, and Support Services Director chose to go with their own opinion. Quote from the program director after EMS left w/ pt " We don't need no God D-mn ambulance for a kid who got burned " . " I know I have no medical training but I know what this camp needs and what it doesnt- and we dont need no Damn ambulance here at camp for this stupid shit " . The Support Services Director stated to me, very explicitly, why the policy was in place, and what its aim was- and even went as far as to say it applied in a life or death emergency, and it was zero tollerance. Want to know what sections of the Texas Adminsitrative Code one would violate if they were to follow this policy?? Read below: However, patient care is compromized when he is notified BEFORE EMS is contacted, in ANY situation. It is not that we are requesting his permission to call EMS, but the mere notification delays the timely transfer of patient care, and transfer to an appropriate medical facility, when the Camp Director/Program Director is negligent on answering their radio traffic. This policy amounts to nothing more than patient abuse, patient abandonment , and engaging in any conduct that jeopardizes OR has the potentital to jeopardize the health or safety of any person, under Texas Administrative Code under Title 25, Part 1, Chapter 157, Subchapter C, Rule 157.36, which states: (6) causing or permitting physical or emotional abuse or injury to a patient or the public, and/or failing to report such abuse or injury to the employer, appropriate legal authority and/or the department (9) abandoning a patient, turning over the care of a patient or delegating EMS functions to a person who lacks the education, training, experience, knowledge to provide appropriate level of care for the patient; (26) engaging in any conduct that jeopardizes or has the potential to jeopardize the health or safety of any person. RE: Boy Scouts So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad? How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all? Interesting thought pattern Mike From: J. Hoskins {Laptop} It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Well Mr. Hatfield- I have spoken extensively with the Camp Director, Program Director, and Support Services Director. This is how I know so much about this issue. Gene Gandy has hit the nail on the head. Regardless, any past experience they have had is irrelevant. One can not rationalize using that thought process when it comes to patient care. New medics, new situation. Hell, even the Medical Director concurred with the treatment. However, the Program Director, Camp Director, and Support Services Director chose to go with their own opinion. Quote from the program director after EMS left w/ pt " We don't need no God D-mn ambulance for a kid who got burned " . " I know I have no medical training but I know what this camp needs and what it doesnt- and we dont need no Damn ambulance here at camp for this stupid shit " . The Support Services Director stated to me, very explicitly, why the policy was in place, and what its aim was- and even went as far as to say it applied in a life or death emergency, and it was zero tollerance. Want to know what sections of the Texas Adminsitrative Code one would violate if they were to follow this policy?? Read below: However, patient care is compromized when he is notified BEFORE EMS is contacted, in ANY situation. It is not that we are requesting his permission to call EMS, but the mere notification delays the timely transfer of patient care, and transfer to an appropriate medical facility, when the Camp Director/Program Director is negligent on answering their radio traffic. This policy amounts to nothing more than patient abuse, patient abandonment , and engaging in any conduct that jeopardizes OR has the potentital to jeopardize the health or safety of any person, under Texas Administrative Code under Title 25, Part 1, Chapter 157, Subchapter C, Rule 157.36, which states: (6) causing or permitting physical or emotional abuse or injury to a patient or the public, and/or failing to report such abuse or injury to the employer, appropriate legal authority and/or the department (9) abandoning a patient, turning over the care of a patient or delegating EMS functions to a person who lacks the education, training, experience, knowledge to provide appropriate level of care for the patient; (26) engaging in any conduct that jeopardizes or has the potential to jeopardize the health or safety of any person. RE: Boy Scouts So past experiences never affect our decisions? Good or bad? How do you know he/she refuses to be educated, or knows all? Interesting thought pattern Mike From: J. Hoskins {Laptop} It doesnt matter if he has dealt with " yahoo " medics in the past- his rationale is absolutely senseless & pointless. They REFUSE to be educated. They KNOW all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 a quick question for group.... Does contacting the camp director violate any of the 30,000 page HIPPA rules??? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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