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RE: Medicolegal

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Guest guest
Posted

Yes, it is true. Now that brings up an interesting question.

If EMS asks the officer to arrest so that treatment can be forced, and the

officer refuses, and the patient does not receive needed treatment and sues EMS

for failing to treat and transport, can the EMS service then turn around and

sue the police officer for dereliction of duty, gross negligence, and malice in

refusing to take the patient into custody?

In that case the police would be sued for failing to arrest a person. Any of

the other lawyers or legal groupies have an idea about that?

GG

In a message dated 3/31/2004 8:44:29 PM Central Standard Time,

bbledsoe@... writes:

True

Medicolegal

Any basis to this rumor: Peace officers are reluctant to

arrest/detain/take in custody persons whom the EMS think should go to

the hospital, but who refuse, because if the peace officer arrests,

etc, then the officer's county, city, etc, has to pay the ambulance

and associated bills?

Bob in McGregor

LP

Guest guest
Posted

Any basis to this rumor: Peace officers are reluctant to

arrest/detain/take in custody persons whom the EMS think should go to

the hospital, but who refuse, because if the peace officer arrests,

etc., then the officer's county, city, etc, has to pay the ambulance

and associated bills?

Bob in McGregor

LP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, and usually they have to remain with the " detainee " also. And they HATE

that.

Not to mention the whole " you can't have your gun in the back of my

ambulance " and " you can't have him handcuffed in the back of my ambulance "

thing.

With the cops I know, I don't think they're really concerned with who has to

pay for it, although it is their department, county, etc., it doesn't come out

of their check. They just don't like it having to stay with their prisoner

and do all the paperwork.

Guest guest
Posted

Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

-Wes Ogilvie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A can

remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The sheriff's

office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint. On

scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing transport

(there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) . S. O.

was

refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case, the pt

found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I just

looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It was a big

mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done his job

in the first place.

Guest guest
Posted

In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:24:10 PM Central Standard Time,

estes1208@... writes:

The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the arrest...If the

patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

themselves the officer can fill out an emergency detention order and they

can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the gun in the

back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a police

officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with there

gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a medic that he

cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police officer

I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my duty

weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am just

giving my opinion on the subject...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had always been told it was against TDH rules & regs to have a firearm in

the back of an ambulance.

Gene, is this true, or just some policy that certain entities subscribe to in

order to protect their employees?

Guest guest
Posted

,

Good stuff! Thanks.

It would never occur to me to ask a police officer to give up his/her weapon

to go in the rig with me when I wanted them there to begin with. DUH! What a

ridiculous rule.

Now, I do not allow patients to be handcuffed to my stretcher, but they may

be handcuffed to the LSB. We use plastic restraints preferably because they

can be easily cut if there's a fire or accident. NO patient should ever be

handcuffed to your stretcher.

GG

In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:23:52 PM Central Standard Time,

estes1208@... writes:

The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the arrest...If the

patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

themselves the officer can fill out a emergency detention order and they

can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the gun in the

back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a police

officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with there

gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a medic that he

cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police officer

I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my duty

weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am just

giving my opinion on the subject...

athan Estes EMT-P

Police Officer

> [Original Message]

>

> To: < >

> Date: 3/31/2004 10:11:41 PM

> Subject: Re: Medicolegal

>

> Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A

can

> remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The

sheriff's

> office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint.

On

> scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing

transport

> (there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) .

S. O. was

> refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case,

the pt

> found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I

just

> looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It was

a big

> mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done

his job

> in the first place.

>

>

Guest guest
Posted

True

Medicolegal

Any basis to this rumor: Peace officers are reluctant to

arrest/detain/take in custody persons whom the EMS think should go to

the hospital, but who refuse, because if the peace officer arrests,

etc, then the officer's county, city, etc, has to pay the ambulance

and associated bills?

Bob in McGregor

LP

Guest guest
Posted

Untrue. To my knowledge the only time EMS bills PD is when calls originate at

the jail. Some services opt to no bill the city as a courtesy if they have the

911 contract. Most services I have seen bill the pt. I know where I work if

the pt did not call ems and someone else did and the pt refuses they do not

bill. How can you bill PD if you asked them to come onto your scene? If any

service has done that it must have been a last ditch effort. But how do you get

PD to arrest a pt in the first place for refusing treatment. TALK ABOUT

KIDNAPPING. Different though if PD sections them. But for that to happen they

must be a danger to self or others. I have threatened to call PD when someone

needs to go just to scare them. BUT I MEAN REALLY NEED TO GO. No family at

home or to stay with the pt.

Medicolegal

Any basis to this rumor: Peace officers are reluctant to

arrest/detain/take in custody persons whom the EMS think should go to

the hospital, but who refuse, because if the peace officer arrests,

etc, then the officer's county, city, etc, has to pay the ambulance

and associated bills?

Bob in McGregor

LP

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guest guest
Posted

The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the arrest...If the

patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

themselves the officer can fill out a emergency detention order and they

can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the gun in the

back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a police

officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with there

gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a medic that he

cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police officer

I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my duty

weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am just

giving my opinion on the subject...

athan Estes EMT-P

Police Officer

> [Original Message]

>

> To: < >

> Date: 3/31/2004 10:11:41 PM

> Subject: Re: Medicolegal

>

> Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

>

> -Wes Ogilvie

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A

can

> remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The

sheriff's

> office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint.

On

> scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing

transport

> (there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) .

S. O. was

> refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case,

the pt

> found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I

just

> looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It was

a big

> mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done

his job

> in the first place.

>

>

>

Guest guest
Posted

If you're referring to a situation where the patients presents an

immediate threat to themself or others:

There's the emergency committal order signed by a judge route, and

then there's " emergency detention " directly by the cops.

In those situations, when we've attempted to gain consent but the

cops had to intervene, we bill the patient, same as we would if the

cops hadn't been needed- although technically the transport was

done " on their directive " , and perhaps their department COULD be

billed, that seems to me a very bad practice for EMS.

BUT I'm guessing you're referring to a situation where a person

might avoid arrest and prosecution just because they have injuries.

That should never happen. Depending on the charges they face, the

patient could/ should be arrested and transported with police on

board the unit. Most jails will not allow inmates booked in if they

have injuries. Once in police custody, the department gets stuck

with the bills.

In some circumstances, the police can gather their information and

get a warrant to arrest them later.

I've had many officer-assisted consents " either you're going with

them or you're going with me "

If those patients only realized, they could withdraw their consent

during transport and walk free from the ambulance- they're not in my

custody.

I've also seen inmates released on PR bonds when we pick them up

from the jail- an obvious attempt to avoid the medical bills. If we

pick them up from the jail, the jail's going to pay the bill.

In other words- yes, there is basis for the rumor.

RM

We charge the county a flat rate of $250 for transport of inmates.

> Any basis to this rumor: Peace officers are reluctant to

> arrest/detain/take in custody persons whom the EMS think should go

to

> the hospital, but who refuse, because if the peace officer

arrests,

> etc, then the officer's county, city, etc, has to pay the

ambulance

> and associated bills?

>

> Bob in McGregor

> LP

Guest guest
Posted

Same at some jails, when we see a patient in the jail, or if the

prisoner makes a Doctor's office visit, and the results are that they

will require any type of long term care, they will release them first.

Had one go so far as to go back to the jail from the Dr's office,

immediately released him from custody, and dispatched us to the jail to

get him as soon as he got outside, so that we could transport him 45

miles to another hospital.

Mike

Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

-Wes Ogilvie

------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A

can

remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The

sheriff's

office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint.

On

scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing

transport

(there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) .

S. O. was

refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case,

the pt

found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I

just

looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It

was a big

mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done

his job

in the first place.

Guest guest
Posted

Wow! Yikes! Thanks for all your input at such an atrocious time of

night! What are you doing up?

Bob in McGregor

LP

Guest guest
Posted

I know that Texas Law states that I can carry my firearm anywhere but on

the grounds of a jail or prison. That is obvious....I know that when I

worked for Rural Metro and before I had my peace officer license I had my

CHL. TDH said that they did not care but you had to follow your local p

and p's. The area that gets you with a CHL is that you cant carry it into

a hospital so it wouldnt do you any good. I still currently work for

Rural Metro and there policy is that I cant carry my gun while I am working

for them ....If I am a police officer and I am working as a police officer

I dont follow under the guidelines set by TDH.....

> [Original Message]

>

> To: < >

> Date: 3/31/2004 11:48:42 PM

> Subject: Re: Medicolegal

>

> In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:24:10 PM Central Standard Time,

> estes1208@... writes:

> The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the arrest...If

the

> patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

> themselves the officer can fill out an emergency detention order and they

> can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the gun in the

> back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a police

> officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with there

> gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a medic that

he

> cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police officer

> I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my duty

> weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am just

> giving my opinion on the subject...

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> I had always been told it was against TDH rules & regs to have a firearm

in

> the back of an ambulance.

>

> Gene, is this true, or just some policy that certain entities subscribe

to in

> order to protect their employees?

>

>

>

Guest guest
Posted

The way I see it is that any person who has a willingness to harm themselves

or others is not acting appropriate and therefore NOT competent to make

informed medical decisions at that time (even if they are A+Ox4). LOC does

not directly relate to competency. Witnessed suicide attempt goes to the

hospital. Witnessed suicidal ideation goes to the hospital or psych

facility. Depressed but competent (not in the down side of

manic-depression), you have the choice, but I'm pushing for transport.

There are more intricacies involved, but my eyes and fingers fail me.. Need

sleep.

Mike

Re: Medicolegal

Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

-Wes Ogilvie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A can

remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The

sheriff's

office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint. On

scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing transport

(there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) . S.

O. was

refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case, the

pt

found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I just

looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It was a

big

mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done his

job

in the first place.

Guest guest
Posted

It is against TDH rules to have a firearm in the back of an

ambulance only if the person is not a law enforcement officer, or

detention officer in the active commission of their duties. I do

not allow jailers or guards (detention officers) in the back with a

gun, but do allow police officers in the back with a gun. The

reason being that most of the detention officers I have run in to

have flimsy, unsecure holsters, and have received minimal weapons

training, and training in weapon retention, etc. LE on the other

hand has a high focus on use of force (escalating use of force),

weapon retention, and I don't know any self respecting officer now

days who does not wear a retention hoslter of some level. It's a

safety issue for all. Also, I have taken legal concealed weapons

off of patients during the care process (I prefer to leave them with

LE at the scene, or at home if possible & always " search " for them

during my exam), unloaded them, and placed them in a locked

compartment of the ambulance during transport. I then turn it over

to hospital security or LE at the receiving facility for safe

keeping.

CB

Guest guest
Posted

I know that most P & P's prohibit weapons being posessed by their

employees on duty. TDH will follow those P & P's usually. The CHL

issue has arisen in the past with employees who had CHL's being

allowed to carry on duty, or employees who were peace officers

(being carried by an agency) being allowed to carry on duty. TDH's

general stance was that they didn't care if that happened, but

strongly discouraged it. My general feeling is this. If you are on

duty as a cop, YOU ARE A COP. If you are on duty as a medic, YOU

ARE A MEDIC. You shouldn't be fulfilling both roles at once. I

think issues gets clouded when you try to focus on both. Wear one

hat at a time. That's my personal feeling.

CB

Guest guest
Posted

I agree! Back in the 60s I ran across a small department that installed

rings in the floor and cage ofo squad cars to attach prisoners to.

Great control, but in an accident, that's very bad!

=Steve=

wegandy1938@... wrote:

>,

>

>Good stuff! Thanks.

>

>It would never occur to me to ask a police officer to give up his/her weapon

>to go in the rig with me when I wanted them there to begin with. DUH! What a

>ridiculous rule.

>

>Now, I do not allow patients to be handcuffed to my stretcher, but they may

>be handcuffed to the LSB. We use plastic restraints preferably because they

>can be easily cut if there's a fire or accident. NO patient should ever be

>handcuffed to your stretcher.

>

>GG

>

>In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:23:52 PM Central Standard Time,

>estes1208@... writes:

>The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the arrest...If the

>patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

>themselves the officer can fill out a emergency detention order and they

>can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the gun in the

>back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a police

>officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with there

>gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a medic that he

>cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police officer

>I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my duty

>weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am just

>giving my opinion on the subject...

>

>athan Estes EMT-P

>Police Officer

>

>

>

>

>>[Original Message]

>>

>>To: < >

>>Date: 3/31/2004 10:11:41 PM

>>Subject: Re: Medicolegal

>>

>>Wouldn't the officer need a REASON to arrest?

>>

>>-Wes Ogilvie

>>

>>

>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>Sometimes, even when they have one, they won't. (See my last posting) A

>>

>>

>can

>

>

>>remember a few years back I caught a call for a toxic ingestion. The

>>

>>

>sheriff's

>

>

>>office was called concurrently due to the nature of the chief complaint.

>>

>>

>On

>

>

>>scene I found a conscious, alert and oriented pt who was refusing

>>

>>

>transport

>

>

>>(there were multiple witnesses to what she'd done prior to my arrival) .

>>

>>

>S. O. was

>

>

>>refusing to arrest the pt. As I was in the process of arguing my case,

>>

>>

>the pt

>

>

>>found a bottle of pills she'd hidden and downed a mouthful of them. I

>>

>>

>just

>

>

>>looked at the S. O. and asked, " NOW are you going to arrest her?! " It was

>>

>>

>a big

>

>

>>mess and one that didn't need to happen if the S.O> would've just done

>>

>>

>his job

>

>

>>in the first place.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

Guest guest
Posted

TDH does not prohibit weapons on the ambulance- they strongly

recommened that providers adopt a policy on crewmembers carrying

weapons, and that they carefully consider the potential for

liability. A provider agency may choose to allow the lawful carrying

of weapons- either employees with CHL or LE license. If a provider

allows weapons, they are liable for whatever may happen.

Our TDH program specialist recommended that we adopt a comprehensive

weapons policy- to include knives, pepper spray- all weapons.

> In a message dated 3/31/2004 10:24:10 PM Central Standard Time,

> estes1208@e... writes:

> The officer needs to have enough probable cause to make the

arrest...If the

> patient is being seen for psychiatric problems and is a danger to

> themselves the officer can fill out an emergency detention order

and they

> can be transported by EMS or the officer....The issue about the

gun in the

> back of the ambulance...I have been in EMS for 12 years and I am a

police

> officer..I would always let them in the back of my ambulance with

there

> gun. They are trained professional...Thats is like telling a

medic that he

> cant go into a scene with anything. When I am at work as a police

officer

> I have my duty weapon with me...If the ambulance doesn't want my

duty

> weapon in the back of the truck then I don't go with them....I am

just

> giving my opinion on the subject...

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

---------

>

> I had always been told it was against TDH rules & regs to have a

firearm in

> the back of an ambulance.

>

> Gene, is this true, or just some policy that certain entities

subscribe to in

> order to protect their employees?

>

>

>

Guest guest
Posted

I agree. I have no place on my belt for a firearm. OTOH, if I'm a cop on

duty, that's a part of my required paraphernalia.

No policeperson is going to give up her/his weapon just to get into my

ambulance for the purpose of guarding/accompaning a prisoner. And I don't think

TDH

has anything to say about that at all.

For the public safety departments who are triple trained, such as s,

TX, DFW Airport, Highland Park and University Park in Dallas, et cetera, I view

their personnel as always on duty three ways. Therefore weapons are a part of

their duty uniform.

GG

In a message dated 4/1/2004 8:23:30 AM Central Standard Time,

cwblum@... writes:

I know that most P & P's prohibit weapons being posessed by their

employees on duty. TDH will follow those P & P's usually. The CHL

issue has arisen in the past with employees who had CHL's being

allowed to carry on duty, or employees who were peace officers

(being carried by an agency) being allowed to carry on duty. TDH's

general stance was that they didn't care if that happened, but

strongly discouraged it. My general feeling is this. If you are on

duty as a cop, YOU ARE A COP. If you are on duty as a medic, YOU

ARE A MEDIC. You shouldn't be fulfilling both roles at once. I

think issues gets clouded when you try to focus on both. Wear one

hat at a time. That's my personal feeling.

CB

Guest guest
Posted

I totally forgot about the combined services. The one exception to

the rule is if you are a part of a combined department as Gene

mentioned. In those combined departments, you are frequently a cop,

a medic, and a firefighter. That is the only place that one has

exercising multiple duties at one job place. Otherwise, if you are

a cop and a medic, be a medic at your medic job, be a cop and your

cop job. I, being from a LE background myself, find it tempting at

times to go into " cop mode " , and have to restrain myself. It's just

second nature, but it does cloud your judgement trying to wear two

hats at once, so to speak. I have no desire to have a gun in my

ambulance, unless it belongs to a cop riding in it, it's a

correctional officer riding in the front, or a weapon I have secured

off of a patient.

There was much talk a few years ago about arming EMS crews for

personal protection. I use to support the idea, but after much

thought, have come to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea.

One of the reasons being that alot of people would resort to using

their weapon, instead of their brain (as a means of self defense),

when they were confronted with a threatening situation. If you need

a gun, get the f*ck out of where you are, or don't go in at all. If

in doubt, err on the side of safety. I know that of all of the

calls that I have been on, when I could have quite legitimately have

needed a gun for self defense, I have never needed as a result of

using my brain. Another thing that was taught to me in my LE career

was, you don't want to have to THINK about having to use your gun.

It has to be REFLEX, an extension of your body, or you are going to

be dead by the time that you THINK about using it. If you are in a

position like that as a Medic, you are better off not having that as

a REFLEX reaction. Get my drift?

I know the original post wasn't about this, and I have drifted off a

little bit, but they go hand in hand.

Guest guest
Posted

And just to ride on ' coat-tail

-- Re: Medicolegal

I totally forgot about the combined services. The one exception to

the rule is if you are a part of a combined department as Gene

mentioned. In those combined departments, you are frequently a cop,

a medic, and a firefighter. That is the only place that one has

exercising multiple duties at one job place. Otherwise, if you are

a cop and a medic, be a medic at your medic job, be a cop and your

cop job. I, being from a LE background myself, find it tempting at

times to go into " cop mode " , and have to restrain myself. It's just

second nature, but it does cloud your judgement trying to wear two

hats at once, so to speak. I have no desire to have a gun in my

ambulance, unless it belongs to a cop riding in it, it's a

correctional officer riding in the front, or a weapon I have secured

off of a patient.

There was much talk a few years ago about arming EMS crews for

personal protection. I use to support the idea, but after much

thought, have come to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea.

One of the reasons being that alot of people would resort to using

their weapon, instead of their brain (as a means of self defense),

when they were confronted with a threatening situation. If you need

a gun, get the f*ck out of where you are, or don't go in at all. If

in doubt, err on the side of safety. I know that of all of the

calls that I have been on, when I could have quite legitimately have

needed a gun for self defense, I have never needed as a result of

using my brain. Another thing that was taught to me in my LE career

was, you don't want to have to THINK about having to use your gun.

It has to be REFLEX, an extension of your body, or you are going to

be dead by the time that you THINK about using it. If you are in a

position like that as a Medic, you are better off not having that as

a REFLEX reaction. Get my drift?

I know the original post wasn't about this, and I have drifted off a

little bit, but they go hand in hand.

Guest guest
Posted

And just to ride on ' coat-tails, carrying one also sets you up to be

a target...

Mack

-- Re: Medicolegal

I totally forgot about the combined services. The one exception to

the rule is if you are a part of a combined department as Gene

mentioned. In those combined departments, you are frequently a cop,

a medic, and a firefighter. That is the only place that one has

exercising multiple duties at one job place. Otherwise, if you are

a cop and a medic, be a medic at your medic job, be a cop and your

cop job. I, being from a LE background myself, find it tempting at

times to go into " cop mode " , and have to restrain myself. It's just

second nature, but it does cloud your judgement trying to wear two

hats at once, so to speak. I have no desire to have a gun in my

ambulance, unless it belongs to a cop riding in it, it's a

correctional officer riding in the front, or a weapon I have secured

off of a patient.

There was much talk a few years ago about arming EMS crews for

personal protection. I use to support the idea, but after much

thought, have come to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea.

One of the reasons being that alot of people would resort to using

their weapon, instead of their brain (as a means of self defense),

when they were confronted with a threatening situation. If you need

a gun, get the f*ck out of where you are, or don't go in at all. If

in doubt, err on the side of safety. I know that of all of the

calls that I have been on, when I could have quite legitimately have

needed a gun for self defense, I have never needed as a result of

using my brain. Another thing that was taught to me in my LE career

was, you don't want to have to THINK about having to use your gun.

It has to be REFLEX, an extension of your body, or you are going to

be dead by the time that you THINK about using it. If you are in a

position like that as a Medic, you are better off not having that as

a REFLEX reaction. Get my drift?

I know the original post wasn't about this, and I have drifted off a

little bit, but they go hand in hand.

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