Re: Alec....here we go

[Guest guest]

> Am I over reacting? Is this normal? <

i don't know what's wrong with alec, but that is NOT normal!

Autism is not the end of the World. . . . just the beginning of a new one. -

Sally Meyer

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[Guest guest]

Ron,

Cameron says you totally did NOT over react (and I agree with him). Alec's

behavior was totally inappropriate. So sorry.

Amy H--in Michigan

Kepler 4 1/2 ASD and Bethany 6 NT

" although one has a responsiblity to stick things out to the limit of one's

endurance, one also has to have the courage to retreat and lick one's

wounds, so as to return to the fray refreshed. "

~Kenzaburo Oe

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 3:20:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

reynoldspm@... writes:

> I can not figure out sometimes why our kids do what they do. There

> does not seem to be any clutch between the thought and the doing.

> It's a direct drive system. Sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

Thanks ....

I did a search on such behavior....wondering if it was some weird

psychological power trip or some kind of sexual acting out....I didn't find

much....lot's of sex sights...I told Terry the FBI will probably

calling....in a " pre-teen, inappropriate urination " search all kinds of weird

sights came up.

Anyway...I'm concerned about Sam and Alec.

For a few months now, and we didn't know where this came from, Sam would walk

around at times, giggle, mocking holding his penis, or sometimes actually

holding his penis when changing and say, " I pee on you. " Both Terry and I

thought it was just some sort of autism thing. He wouldn't actually be

peeing, just making believe. Now I wonder how many times the little guy

actually has been urinated on.

I feared there might be a time where Sam, the all trusting, might

inadvertently stumble upon someone who would humiliate him or try to and Sam

not know it. I just didn't know it would come from his stepbrothter....I had

a good cry over this one.

Alec's grades continue to slowly go down at school. They went from straight

A's to A's and B's to B's and C's to homework notes and a detention this year

for not completing assignments. He got thrown out of school for a day for

throwing rocks at cars.

The list of Alec's behaviors slowly and subtly grows. Meanwhile, bio-dad

continues to threaten through the courts and verbally to " kick Terry's ass in

court " if she attempts to get Alec any help...including school tutoring.

His last " progress report " which is actually a deficiency report has him

with one D, (that's a failure in this school) 1-2 B's and the rest C's.

Bio-dad, of course spins this as " it's okay....I'm not concerned. " I'm sure

there'll be a spin on this latest episode also.

Thanks for responding and I hope things are well for you guys

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 10:56:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Bosocks1@... writes:

> 1)Has anyone else experienced inappropriate urnination i.e. pissing on

> siblings?

>

> 2)Am I over reacting? Is this normal?

>

>

>

1) Yep, but both my asd child has done this AND my NT child (but he was just

turning 4 when he did it) The difference was I could tell my NT kid not to do

it every again and he listened. Not true with . Although this is not an

everyday occurrence anymore, it has happened...I just don't let him take

baths anymore with the other kids.

Tommi

[Guest guest]

Ron

I am SO SORRY. No this has never happened but is too young. I can

totally understand why you lost it though. If we are all honest there are

many times when I go inside my head and don't like what I imagine. You did

the right thing to leave the house.

I guess it all depends on weather or not you think the intent was

malicience.

Did you overreact? No. My husband when we saw his kids every weekend was

the type of father who would never hit his kids. His attitude has changed

now. He's only given a tap on the mouth but that was a long time ago

and she had bitten him. She has never done it again. You could tell by her

face that she understood. Do you think he understood?

I'm really sorry Ron. I wish I had more to offer than compassion.

G

[Guest guest]

Holy Smokes Ron! Truthfully I honestly think we would have done the

same, and I'm sure there would have been some hollering going on

too. I rarely raise my voice, but that surely would have been cause

enough.

I can not figure out sometimes why our kids do what they do. There

does not seem to be any clutch between the thought and the doing.

It's a direct drive system. Sigh.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 6:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

madness4midnight@... writes:

> 1) Yep, but both my asd child has done this AND my NT child (but he was just

> turning 4 when he did it) The difference was I could tell my NT kid not to

> do

> it every again and he listened. Not true with . Although this is not

> an

> everyday occurrence anymore, it has happened...I just don't let him take

> baths anymore with the other kids.

> Tommi

>

>

>

And now that my anger has somewhat subsided, with contributions on this topic

from the list and from Terry's best friend who has raised several of her own

kids and is one of 14 in her family, I'm leaning toward this being a maturity

issue rather than a deviant issue.

Alec is extremley immature for his age. He'll be 11 in June, yet exhibits

some very babyfied behavior in, personal responsibility and social issues.

I've toyed with the idea that I may be expecting too much. However, I can't

get out of my head that at 10 years old, by now he should be able to

understand that:

....homework is to be done and done properly in order to succeed.

....chores, though they are not fun, are a fact of life....picking up ones

room, i.e., putting clothes in the hamper, picking up toys are facts of life.

....The above should be able to be done without an hour long pouting, foot

stomping session, where threats and/or mild punishment, (no t.v. etc.) are

not needed to be enforced.

....showing him an alternative means of accomplishing a task is not a personal

attack on his abilities or knowledge but a teaching mechanism to accomplish a

task more efficiently and completely therefore eliminating extra time....time

which can be used for personal pleasure....

....socially, I'd think that the peeing episode is somewhat " normal " though

bizzare. It may not happen with all kids but certainly Alec isn't the first

child to do this....though at age 10, I'd think, like you have stated, I'd

expect it from 3-5 year olds and not a " normal " (according to his dad) 10

year old.

I can go on, but for now, I have to get Alec to school and go to work....

I'll write later...

thanks again

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 8:04:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

ajhelmuth@... writes:

> Ron,

> After reading this post, I was more concerned. Alec is acting just like

> Bethany who definitely has anxiety issues, if not more. She is seeing a

> therapist off and on (when things are bad). I truly hope you can convince

> Alec's dad to get him some help. This morning I also remembered reading

> somewhere that inappropriate peeing can be a sign of physical abuse. Just

> wanted to throw that out there. If I can remember where I read that, I'll

> let you know.

>

> Amy H--in Michigan

>

Well, therapy at this point is out of the question for Alec. Terry and I

tried to get Alec some help. The result? Bio-dad sued Terry for

custody...this is still pending. Alec has been evaled 3 times....the first

time he was dx'd ADHD....given counseling and a test run on Concerta

(sic?)....his dad then sued for custody....threatened to sue the facility

which was treating Alec. The lawyers of the facility told the docs that if

Alec wasn't suicidal to send him on his way.

The second dx, done by another Psychiatrist confirmed the first dx. Alec was

referred by him to a pyschologist who gave him a battery of tests. ADHD

could not be confirmed. What came up though was a Non Verbal Learning

Disability. Oddly enough, this is now on the high end of the Autism

spectrum. The psychologist said she was more concerned with the NLD dx,

which by the way manifests behaviors very similar to ADHD, because of the

high suicide rate amongst these children. She said, however, that she would

NOT provide counseling for Alec without the participation of bio-dad....of

course he refused to admit anything wrong or participate in any counseling.

Alec went to another psychologist via court order. Bio-dad, was ordered to

participate. Somehow, (I'm thinking our lawyer dropped the ball here), this

court ordered visit was to determine whether Alec needed meds or not.

Bio-dad spun, as usual, that Terry just wanted Alec on drugs. The psych said

there was nothing wrong with Alec other than his enviroment...i.e. it's

Terry's and my fault if Alec is exhibiting poor behavior.

Bio-dad, obviously spun his story to the psych...failing to give information

such as.....

....Bio-dads own ADD dx.

....Bio-dads math dyxlexsia

....Bio-dads own psych hospitalization, once at 17 and once again at around 35

....Bio-dads dx of sex addiction.

....Bio-dads threats to Alec that he would send him to a doctor if his

behavior didn't change.

....Bio-dad calling Terry and I on numerous occasions stating " I can't handle

him anymore " or " I think he's ADD or something. "

....Bio-dads inability or unwillingness to care for Alec when he is sick.

....Bio-dads constant spanking...up until he sued for custody that is, (now he

claims Alec's behavior is impeccable) even though he had him just on

weekends. These spankings happened EVERY weekend even though there was

absololetly no responsbilities...i.e. homework, household chores etc.

....Bio-dads open disdain for the psychiatric community...(more than likely

stemming from dx's of his own he now perceives as bogus).

....Bio-dads poor impulse control stemming in abnormal sexual

activity....A)having repeated marital affairs...B)being reprimanded for

sexual harrasment C)sexual encounters in the work place, i.e. having oral sex

with a fellow employee in the work place in an office adjacent to where his

wife was working....

I'm sure there is more I've either forgotten or don't know.

I'm aware of the abuse senario and have done some personal investigation.

Before I had my own business, I was in the medical communinty having worked 2

lock down psych wards. Terry is and RN....

I don't think there is sexual abuse and/or physical abuse....

I truly believe Alec's behaviors are manifestations of his NLD dx....what we

are witnessing is an increase in unacceptable social behaviors that conicide

with the NLD dx.

If the dx is true, what we can expect without treatment is:

....an increase in socially unacceptable behavior.

....an increase in worthlessness due to inability to follow direction or

concentrate, therfore a feeling of ineptitude.

....an increase in isolation due to the feeling of not being like other

children.

....an increase in depression.

....an increase in not wanting to live.

in the last 2.5 years, Alec has....

....ran away from home x1 with a 2nd failed attempt (he changed his mind after

about 20 minutes gone).

....expressed feelings of inept and not wanting to live anymore.

....experienced a panic attack.

....Grades have gone from A's to C's and D's.

....Been thrown out of a private school for a day for throwing rocks at cars.

....increase in lying.

....increase in secretivness.

....continues to show inability to socialize with peers, (thought being

honest, this has improved through the current year).

....inability to cope with day to day living.

....continued forgetfulness...lossing clothes, books etc.

....of course the new peeing episode.

....tanrumming and pouting.

....inability to mature to age appropriatness.

I think Terry could add some things.

Sorry for the length...

Ron....who apparently is once again a post-aholic

[Guest guest]

Alec will be 11 in June....

Puberty has been thought of....what concerns me is, Alec's dx and his other

behavior prior to reaching this age.

Couple past behaviors with what is going on and God knows what's next.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>From: Bosocks1@...

>And now that my anger has somewhat subsided, with contributions on this

>topic

>from the list and from Terry's best friend who has raised several of her

>own

>kids and is one of 14 in her family, I'm leaning toward this being a

>maturity

>issue rather than a deviant issue.

Ron,

After reading this post, I was more concerned. Alec is acting just like

Bethany who definitely has anxiety issues, if not more. She is seeing a

therapist off and on (when things are bad). I truly hope you can convince

Alec's dad to get him some help. This morning I also remembered reading

somewhere that inappropriate peeing can be a sign of physical abuse. Just

wanted to throw that out there. If I can remember where I read that, I'll

let you know.

Amy H--in Michigan

Kepler 4 1/2 ASD and Bethany 6 NT

" although one has a responsiblity to stick things out to the limit of one's

endurance, one also has to have the courage to retreat and lick one's

wounds, so as to return to the fray refreshed. "

~Kenzaburo Oe

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

> > Am I over reacting? Is this normal? <

>

> i don't know what's wrong with alec, but that is NOT normal!

>

>

I don't blame you - I'd probably would have blown my cool too.

Kerri

[Guest guest]

Ron, I don't know if this is of any help.

I guess my first question is hoe old id Alec?

My son is 12 and this year he went from straight A's and being in the gifted

class to low B's right down to R's which over here is a F.

I talked to the teacher and the principal about this and then we went to doctors

on this and they told me that this is all part of the boys changing (hormones)

(SP).

I found that hard to believe so I went to the Child Development Centre at Sick

Kids Hospital and talked to them and they said that it could very much be his

hormones changing and he does not know how to handle it. They are going to do

some tests on him and see if this is what it is.

to was peeing over everything, just thanks god it was not my other two.

I am sorry that this is happening and I think it I was you I would have gotten

just has mad.

Take care

Lori

Re: Re: Alec....here we go

In a message dated 4/29/02 3:20:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

reynoldspm@... writes:

> I can not figure out sometimes why our kids do what they do. There

> does not seem to be any clutch between the thought and the doing.

> It's a direct drive system. Sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

Thanks ....

I did a search on such behavior....wondering if it was some weird

psychological power trip or some kind of sexual acting out....I didn't find

much....lot's of sex sights...I told Terry the FBI will probably

calling....in a " pre-teen, inappropriate urination " search all kinds of weird

sights came up.

Anyway...I'm concerned about Sam and Alec.

For a few months now, and we didn't know where this came from, Sam would walk

around at times, giggle, mocking holding his penis, or sometimes actually

holding his penis when changing and say, " I pee on you. " Both Terry and I

thought it was just some sort of autism thing. He wouldn't actually be

peeing, just making believe. Now I wonder how many times the little guy

actually has been urinated on.

I feared there might be a time where Sam, the all trusting, might

inadvertently stumble upon someone who would humiliate him or try to and Sam

not know it. I just didn't know it would come from his stepbrothter....I had

a good cry over this one.

Alec's grades continue to slowly go down at school. They went from straight

A's to A's and B's to B's and C's to homework notes and a detention this year

for not completing assignments. He got thrown out of school for a day for

throwing rocks at cars.

The list of Alec's behaviors slowly and subtly grows. Meanwhile, bio-dad

continues to threaten through the courts and verbally to " kick Terry's ass in

court " if she attempts to get Alec any help...including school tutoring.

His last " progress report " which is actually a deficiency report has him

with one D, (that's a failure in this school) 1-2 B's and the rest C's.

Bio-dad, of course spins this as " it's okay....I'm not concerned. " I'm sure

there'll be a spin on this latest episode also.

Thanks for responding and I hope things are well for you guys

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron

I suppose you have tried to have bio dad declared mentally incompetent to

handle Alec? It sounds like you've been threw the wringer. That's the thing

about divorce you're still stuck with the person you'd like to get rid of.

Any change of moving away?

G

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 7:38:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bosocks1@...

writes:

> It may not happen with all kids but certainly Alec isn't the first

> child to do this....though at age 10

I don't know if it will make you feel any better but my stepdaughter at age

12 didn't know her left from her right. She's the NT one.

G

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I'd have done the same thing. Alec was way out of line. Has he said why?

Tuna

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[Guest guest]

Ron,

I really wish there was something I could say to help. Watching slowly

slip away like this must be excruciating. I'm a big strong Canadian girl, maybe

I could go kick bio-dad's ass for you? Just kidding, sort of.

Take care

Tuna

Re: Re: Alec....here we go

In a message dated 4/29/02 3:20:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

reynoldspm@... writes:

> I can not figure out sometimes why our kids do what they do. There

> does not seem to be any clutch between the thought and the doing.

> It's a direct drive system. Sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

Thanks ....

I did a search on such behavior....wondering if it was some weird

psychological power trip or some kind of sexual acting out....I didn't find

much....lot's of sex sights...I told Terry the FBI will probably

calling....in a " pre-teen, inappropriate urination " search all kinds of weird

sights came up.

Anyway...I'm concerned about Sam and Alec.

For a few months now, and we didn't know where this came from, Sam would walk

around at times, giggle, mocking holding his penis, or sometimes actually

holding his penis when changing and say, " I pee on you. " Both Terry and I

thought it was just some sort of autism thing. He wouldn't actually be

peeing, just making believe. Now I wonder how many times the little guy

actually has been urinated on.

I feared there might be a time where Sam, the all trusting, might

inadvertently stumble upon someone who would humiliate him or try to and Sam

not know it. I just didn't know it would come from his stepbrothter....I had

a good cry over this one.

Alec's grades continue to slowly go down at school. They went from straight

A's to A's and B's to B's and C's to homework notes and a detention this year

for not completing assignments. He got thrown out of school for a day for

throwing rocks at cars.

The list of Alec's behaviors slowly and subtly grows. Meanwhile, bio-dad

continues to threaten through the courts and verbally to " kick Terry's ass in

court " if she attempts to get Alec any help...including school tutoring.

His last " progress report " which is actually a deficiency report has him

with one D, (that's a failure in this school) 1-2 B's and the rest C's.

Bio-dad, of course spins this as " it's okay....I'm not concerned. " I'm sure

there'll be a spin on this latest episode also.

Thanks for responding and I hope things are well for you guys

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

There is a new book out just recently about NLD and Asperger's

called " Bridging the Gap " , by Rondalyn V. Whitney, MOT, OTR. I have

not read it yet, but I am acquainted through the internet (OTpeds

list) with the author, as she is heavily involved with the NLD site,

and I believe she has a child with NLD. I think it is probably a

good resource, and it costs not so much (around $12, I think) that

it's worth a shot, maybe?

I'm thinking that you and Terri can get some good ideas about dealing

with things at home, maybe some intervention ideas, as she goes

through all of those and reviews them...

Raena

[Guest guest]

I can understand the frustration but I myself am not the type to get

very angry. I am sure that Jeff would have been though. Greggory has

been known to pee for " entertainment " if you can call if that. He has

taken to peeing in a cup in the bathroom instead of the toliet and

then proceeds to show Alec. ~sigh~ I figure alot of kids do this sort

of stuff but maybe not to the same extreme as our kids do. Was Alec

trying to be mean?

Jacquie H

> I went upstairs tonight to check on the kids. Alec was supposed to

be

> pouring Sam and Abbie a bath. When I got up there, I saw Sam and

Abbie in

> the tub. Alec was straddling both sides of the tub, standing,

laughing,

> singing " London Bridge Is Falling Down " a peeing on Sam's head.

>

> I saw RED....I snatched Alec up and sent him downstairs while I

checked on

> Sam. I came down stairs and for maybe the 5-6 time in the last 5.5

years I

> wacked him on his but...3-4 times. I was as angry as I have been

in a very

> long time. I had to leave the house. I paced, smoked 1/2 pack of

KOOLS and

> came back in.

>

> A few questions for anyone.

>

> 1)Has anyone else experienced inappropriate urnination i.e. pissing

on

> siblings?

>

> 2)Am I over reacting? Is this normal?

>

>

> Ron

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ron

I think I may have reacted in the same way if I'd been in your shoes...what Alec

did was extremely inappropriate...ugh...any idea why? Has he said anything about

it?

(inAus) who hopes Alec learnt his lesson...

>>>Alec was straddling both sides of the tub, standing, laughing,

singing " London Bridge Is Falling Down " a peeing on Sam's head.

A few questions for anyone.

1)Has anyone else experienced inappropriate urnination i.e. pissing on

siblings?

2)Am I over reacting? Is this normal?

Ron

[Guest guest]

>>>>>

A few questions for anyone.

1)Has anyone else experienced inappropriate urnination i.e. pissing on

siblings?

<<<<<

No, I have not experienceed this.

>>>>

2)Am I over reacting? Is this normal?

<<<<<

I absolutely, positively DO NOT think you over-reacted. I think under the

circumstances you contained yourself quite well.

What was that boy THINKING??? This is NOT normal behavior. He MUST

understand that this kind of behavior WILL NOT be tolerated, period.

Has bio-Dad come around at all about getting Alec the help he needs???

{{{Ron & Terry}}}

Penny

[Guest guest]

Ron....

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

Alec sounds like my son. (except for the urination...) He really does. My

son had some serious issues, and I never dealt with them.

If it is AT ALL humanly possible, screw bio-dad and get Alec to a

child-psychologist NOW.

I guarantee you, this will only get worse as he gets older.

I'm sooo sorry that bio-dad is such an A$$!!!!

Penny

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 12:48:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

moretuna@... writes:

> Ron,

>

> I'd have done the same thing. Alec was way out of line. Has he said why?

>

> Tuna

>

>

He gave the standard, " I don't know " as he shrugged his shoulders.

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 1:01:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

moretuna@... writes:

> I really wish there was something I could say to help. Watching slowly

> slip away like this must be excruciating. I'm a big strong Canadian girl,

> maybe I could go kick bio-dad's ass for you? Just kidding, sort of.

>

> Take care

> Tuna

>

>

I'm a big strong Canadian guy....but wimps like that just call the cops after

they start their shit...

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 1:45:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jacquie_harris@... writes:

> I can understand the frustration but I myself am not the type to get

> very angry. I am sure that Jeff would have been though. Greggory has

> been known to pee for " entertainment " if you can call if that. He has

> taken to peeing in a cup in the bathroom instead of the toliet and

> then proceeds to show Alec. ~sigh~ I figure alot of kids do this sort

> of stuff but maybe not to the same extreme as our kids do. Was Alec

> trying to be mean?

> Jacquie H

>

>

>

I don't know....I think I tend to side with what said....some kids

just do things without thinking....apparently it was a good idea at the time.

Ron

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 1:58:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

smgaska@... writes:

> These are all things I deal with daily with both of my boys. They so far

> have no

> organizational skills. They don't understand why something should be put

> away

> if they no that later (today, tomorrow, the next day...) they are going to

> use

> it again. School work is hard because of comprehesion and auditory processi

> ng

> issues. We fight ( and I) almost everytime he has homework, yet if he

> didn't fight,

> he'd be done in only 10 minutes or so. The arguments last longer!

>

>

These are all things we deal with too....the problem is...bio-dad is fighting

any kind of intervention or therapy....

he sticks with the idea there is nothing wrong with Alec....so we have to do

this on our own....very difficult..

Ron