Re: the biggest joke of all

[Guest guest]

,

The term " powerlessness " as you use it, is meaningless in this

conversation. One does not need to " hit their knees " to seek health, in

fact Apple " s desire to try something new says to me that she is a

motivated, conscious and empowered individual.

If you are part of the 5-10% who make it in AA ( AA Triennial Survey

stat, not mine) great. But how about letting the 95% for whom AA doesn't

work a chance to live our life, our way.

[Guest guest]

ANDREW!

DID YOU KNOW THAT USING ALL CAPS IN EMAIL IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SHOUTING

IN CONVERSATION?

Can you make your points in calmer lower case like the rest of us? Oh

yeah, and how about some restraint of pen and tong? Are you preying for

us? I have an aunt who preys that I will become a pi rest. Maybe you

con prey that we all go to AA where we can be clever and caring like you.

If you are the only Big Book I read today, I am glad to be 12 step free.

[Guest guest]

I knew this might happen. Yes, as embarrassing it is, I'm going to a

workshop in a treatment center (aka. rehab) where the goal will be to

do intense emotional work. Please note that the animated release of

pent-up emotions as we will be doing in the workshop goes 180 degrees

counter to the AA / NA way. That's what made the program so interesting

to me. The fact that the workshop takes place in a rehab was a hard

pill to swallow, but it may give me a chance to observe what else goes

on in the rehab, particularly in their substance abuse " treatment " area

and see how the acquired knowledge can be used toward my work in AA

deprogramming.

Apple

femstroke-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13281

> What????

> Did I read it correctly????

> I have been lurking here for quite a while now. I was fed up with NA

> and the bullshit that goes with it.

> Now I read that MS APPLE, infamouse creator of AA DEPROGRAMMING is

> going into TREATMENT????

> This is the same person that has given a large portion of her recent

> life to combatting the 12 step programs?

> Now she's going into treatment?

> Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this.

> I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later.

>

>

[Guest guest]

femstroke-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13281

> What????

> Did I read it correctly????

> I have been lurking here for quite a while now. I was fed up with NA

> and the bullshit that goes with it.

> Now I read that MS APPLE, infamouse creator of AA DEPROGRAMMING is

> going into TREATMENT????

> This is the same person that has given a large portion of her recent

> life to combatting the 12 step programs?

> Now she's going into treatment?

> Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this.

> I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later.

>

>

What's the point? Are you saying the fact that Apple is getting

treatment invalidates everything she says about the Step programs? If

so I disagree. You don't have to be a perfect model of mental health to

know there's a lot of sickness and dysfunction in AA and NA.

Personally, I've needed treatment most of my adult life, whether I was

involved in a Step program or not. Being mentally ill does not mean

that I have to put up with " NA and the bullshit that goes with it. " Nor

does it relieve me of my ethical obligation to do something about all

that " bullshit. "

The fact that Apple's checking in for treatment (NOT 12-Step treatment,

by the way) doesn't change the fact that the " bullshit " is going on.

And the " bullshit " will continue until enough people speak up and put

an end to it.

" Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this. "

Go ahead and tell 'em. Apple knows Steppers are lurking in this forum.

She's getting treatment for painful psychological problems. If they get

a big laugh over her mental anguish, it just shows what passes for

compassion in Step Land. Publish and be damned.

" I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later. "

Yeah, well at least Apple's turning to conventional psychiatry instead

of " hitting on her knees " or " turning it over " to a doorknob.

[Guest guest]

Geez, what a slimey post. I'm sure she will continue to question 12 step

thinking inside treatment as well. I don't get the " powerless " remark at

all. Nowhere in her post do I get the slightest hint of her claiming

powerlessness....thats a stepper concept. If anything she seems to be going

with the intent of empowering herself....to be able to feel more, become

more authentic and real.

Rebekah

>femstroke-@... wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13281

>> What????

>> Did I read it correctly????

>> I have been lurking here for quite a while now. I was fed up with NA

>> and the bullshit that goes with it.

>> Now I read that MS APPLE, infamouse creator of AA DEPROGRAMMING is

>> going into TREATMENT????

>> This is the same person that has given a large portion of her recent

>> life to combatting the 12 step programs?

>> Now she's going into treatment?

>> Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this.

>> I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later.

>What's the point? Are you saying the fact that Apple is getting

>treatment invalidates everything she says about the Step programs? If

>so I disagree. You don't have to be a perfect model of mental health to

>know there's a lot of sickness and dysfunction in AA and NA.

>

>Personally, I've needed treatment most of my adult life, whether I was

>involved in a Step program or not. Being mentally ill does not mean

>that I have to put up with " NA and the bullshit that goes with it. " Nor

>does it relieve me of my ethical obligation to do something about all

>that " bullshit. "

>

>The fact that Apple's checking in for treatment (NOT 12-Step treatment,

>by the way) doesn't change the fact that the " bullshit " is going on.

>And the " bullshit " will continue until enough people speak up and put

>an end to it.

>

> " Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this. "

>

>Go ahead and tell 'em. Apple knows Steppers are lurking in this forum.

>She's getting treatment for painful psychological problems. If they get

>a big laugh over her mental anguish, it just shows what passes for

>compassion in Step Land. Publish and be damned.

>

> " I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later. "

>

>Yeah, well at least Apple's turning to conventional psychiatry instead

>of " hitting on her knees " or " turning it over " to a doorknob.

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Apple

The reason I supported you in this is because I know rehabs can help

*in spite* of steppism rather than because of it, and in practice they

do things that are actually contradictory with their claimed steppist

beliefs but they dont notice the contradiction. diener used to

roast me simply because I posted a project I had done which concluded

that codependency might be a useful concept. No suggestion that

steppism was the way to respond to it ( IIRC I dont think I even

*mentioned* steppism in it) and I also said that it could be simply

what personality theorists often call Neuroticism or Instability i.e.

nothing new at all, yet that wasnt good enough for him. I am far more

sympathetic to CoDA than AA because I think it actually puts the reason

for much adult distress, including addiction, correctly where it

belongs, in undatisfactory nurturing in childhood.

again, good luck.

P.

appledt-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13287

> I knew this might happen. Yes, as embarrassing it is, I'm going to a

> workshop in a treatment center (aka. rehab) where the goal will be to

> do intense emotional work. Please note that the animated release of

> pent-up emotions as we will be doing in the workshop goes 180 degrees

> counter to the AA / NA way. That's what made the program so

interesting

> to me. The fact that the workshop takes place in a rehab was a hard

> pill to swallow, but it may give me a chance to observe what else goes

> on in the rehab, particularly in their substance abuse " treatment "

area

> and see how the acquired knowledge can be used toward my work in AA

> deprogramming.

> Apple

>

> femstroke-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=132

81

> > What????

> > Did I read it correctly????

> > I have been lurking here for quite a while now. I was fed up with

NA

> > and the bullshit that goes with it.

> > Now I read that MS APPLE, infamouse creator of AA DEPROGRAMMING is

> > going into TREATMENT????

> > This is the same person that has given a large portion of her recent

> > life to combatting the 12 step programs?

> > Now she's going into treatment?

> > Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this.

> > I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> What's the point? Are you saying the fact that Apple is getting

> treatment invalidates everything she says about the Step programs?

YOU GOT TO ADMIT, IT DOES LOOK KIND OF SILLY. SHE BADMOUTHS TREATMENT

CENTERS, AND THEN SHE ENTERS ONE! BUT THAT'S OK. EVERYONE HAS TO EAT

THEIR WORDS SOMETIME.

> Personally, I've needed treatment most of my adult life, whether I was

> involved in a Step program or not. Being mentally ill does not mean

> that I have to put up with " NA and the bullshit that goes with it. "

Nor

> does it relieve me of my ethical obligation to do something about all

> that " bullshit. "

NOPE. BUT BEING MENTALLY ILL JUST MAY BE WHY YOU CAN'T GET THE 12 STEP

MODEL. eVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT???

> The fact that Apple's checking in for treatment (NOT 12-Step

treatment,

> by the way) doesn't change the fact that the " bullshit " is going on.

> And the " bullshit " will continue until enough people speak up and put

> an end to it.

WELL WHILE SHE'S IN THERE, MAYBE SHE WILL " CATCH ALCOHOLISM " .

PERSONALLY, I THINK SHE HAS ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE OF 12 STEP THEORY TO KNOW

THE DIFFERENCE. SHE DOESN'T SEE IT AS DANGEROUS, OR SHE WOULDN'T BE

GOING INTO A TREATMENT CENTER.

> " Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this. "

>

> Go ahead and tell 'em. Apple knows Steppers are lurking in this forum.

> She's getting treatment for painful psychological problems. If they

get

> a big laugh over her mental anguish, it just shows what passes for

> compassion in Step Land. Publish and be damned.

YES, AND AA'S HAVE PAINFUL PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS. FUNNY HOW IT'S OK

FOR ANTI-12 STEPPERS TO GET A BIG LAUGH OVER THE 12 STEPPERS. IF

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE FAIR, YOU COULD AT LEAST BE MORE INTELLIGENT

ABOUT YOUR APPROACH.

> " I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later. "

>

> Yeah, well at least Apple's turning to conventional psychiatry instead

> of " hitting on her knees " or " turning it over " to a doorknob.

NO, SHE'S JUST HITTING HER KNEES AND TURNING IT OVER TO A SHRINK. SAME

DIFFERENCE.

I HOPE THE BEST FOR HER.

[Guest guest]

At 14:23 14/03/00 -0800, you wrote:

>HEY DIVINE REBEKAH,

>SHE MAY NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT SHE IS POWERLESS, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE

>IS GOING INTO TREATMENT SPEAKS VOLUMES.

I've read Apples comments on this and she says is going to attend a

workshop that is being held IN a treatment center. This doesn't sound like

" going into treatment " , which usually requires a few weeks for the

indoctrination process to " take " . Still a bit too close for comfort for me

though. I wouldn't go into one of those places unless it was to sack the

staff, remove all the religious cult and fake " incurable disease "

literature and turn it into a home for the elderly. I'd probably want to

call it something like " Shady Pines " . Actually maybe the staff could stay.

Maybe they probably be trained up to look after old people.

>THERE'S A WORD FOR THIS. IT'S CALLED " DENIAL " . FAMILIAR WITH IT???

I've heard of it. I heard it a lot when I was in treatment and I heard it a

lot in AA and NA meetings. Turns out that it isn't a valid concept after all.

>AND BY THE WAY, PEOPLE GO TO AA TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES. YOU JUST

>APPARENTLY COULDN'T GET IT.

They may think that's why they are going, but that certainly isn't what

they get when they are there. This would be the same AA that says we

" admitted we were powerless " in the 1st step I suppose. And the joke is,

that powerlessness isn't even real in the first place. The concept, like

the rest of it, comes from the Oxford Group and so will probably be

attached by the umbilical to the step programs for as long as they last,

but it isn't real.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

" joe b. " wrote:

>

> They may think that's why they are going, but that certainly isn't

what

> they get when they are there. This would be the same AA that says we

> " admitted we were powerless " in the 1st step I suppose. And the joke

is,

> that powerlessness isn't even real in the first place. The concept,

like

> the rest of it, comes from the Oxford Group and so will probably be

> attached by the umbilical to the step programs for as long as they

last,

> but it isn't real.

>

> Joe B.

EVER HEARD OF A PARADOX???

YOU RECEIVE EMPOWERMENT FROM ADMITTING POWRLESSNESS.

I SEE YOU COULDN'T GET IT EITHER.

AND IF YOU CAN'T GET IT, HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU TO SAY IT ISN'T REAL.

IT'S VERY REAL. IF PEOPLE WERE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO STOP ON THEIR ON,

THERE WOULDN'T BE THE LARGE NUMBER OF DRUNKS FLOCKING TO AA.

YES, A LOT DO LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET IT, BUT THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE

FAULT OF THE PROGRAM. THEY LEAVE BECAUSE OF THEIR ATTITUDE.

AND THERE'S A LOT OF ARROGANT ATITTUDE PROBLEMS AROUND HERE.

ARE YOU TOO GOOD TO BE POWERLESS???

[Guest guest]

Why are you yelling at me? Ahh yes I am familiar with the term denial. It's

actually a term used in psychiatric communities to describe a sometimes very

healthy coping mechanism. Most people who use the term have absolutely no

background in counseling whatsoever. It's a concept that AA does not have a

monopoly on. Actually, a lot of AA members throw it around indiscriminately

for a lot of absurd reasons. Unfortunately for many steppers it's just a

convenient way to say that they disaagree, but not by being honest about the

disagreement, but by shaming and blaming... insinuating that there must be

something wrong with the person. Kind of sideways.

So anyway...are you here just to troll?

>

> " the divine rebekah " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13295

>> Geez, what a slimey post. I'm sure she will continue to question 12

>step

>> thinking inside treatment as well. I don't get the " powerless " remark

>at

>> all. Nowhere in her post do I get the slightest hint of her claiming

>> powerlessness....thats a stepper concept. If anything she seems to be

>going

>> with the intent of empowering herself....to be able to feel more,

>become

>> more authentic and real.

>> Rebekah

>

>HEY DIVINE REBEKAH,

>SHE MAY NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT SHE IS POWERLESS, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE

>IS GOING INTO TREATMENT SPEAKS VOLUMES.

>THERE'S A WORD FOR THIS. IT'S CALLED " DENIAL " . FAMILIAR WITH IT???

>AND BY THE WAY, PEOPLE GO TO AA TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES. YOU JUST

>APPARENTLY COULDN'T GET IT.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 15:08 14/03/00 -0800, you wrote:

>EVER HEARD OF A PARADOX???

Yes, but I wouldn't dignify AA folklore with that title, it makes it sound

like it might be intelligent. " Untrue " and " not based in reality " work for

me when describing the disease concept.

>YOU RECEIVE EMPOWERMENT FROM ADMITTING POWRLESSNESS.

I didn't.

>I SEE YOU COULDN'T GET IT EITHER.

I " got it " , in that I was a good and loyal stepper for a while, but in

retrospect I don't think the program was helpful. Believing in a disease

that doesn't exist wasn't very therapeutic and caused me some problems.

>AND IF YOU CAN'T GET IT, HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU TO SAY IT ISN'T REAL.

I did believe in the disease concept and so-called powerlessness for a few

years. It was convenient to find out, belatedly, that none of it is true,

or based in science. I feel SO much better nowadays without fearful

ignorance, superstition, folklore and quackery running my life.

>IT'S VERY REAL. IF PEOPLE WERE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO STOP ON THEIR ON,

>THERE WOULDN'T BE THE LARGE NUMBER OF DRUNKS FLOCKING TO AA.

That's funny. I never saw any " flocking " ! There is a continual inflow of

people seeking help, that is true. What is so sad is that so few of them

find any help there. They are told things about their problem that are

untrue, both about AA before they get there (ie they are told that AA is

effective, and this is not true and the figures show it) and by AA when

they are there (that no other approach to recovery works, that they have an

incurable disease, that they are powerless over the decision to drink or

not, that they need a Higher Power (basically religion) in their lives to

stay sober and they need to come to meetings for life- all these things are

also untrue).

If you want to use the " large number " theory as validation, surely that

would validate every other insane cult that has attracted large number of

people?

>YES, A LOT DO LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET IT, BUT THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE

>FAULT OF THE PROGRAM. THEY LEAVE BECAUSE OF THEIR ATTITUDE.

I used to think like this. No, in reality they leave because of the

program, because it is basically ineffective and focused on religious

conversion rather than recovery; it is really hardly surprising that it is

relatively ineffective. Not everybody is attracted to the prospect of

becoming an AA member. And a number seem to leave because of unpleasant

experiences with existing members. They can be very er, abrasive, you know.

>AND THERE'S A LOT OF ARROGANT ATITTUDE PROBLEMS AROUND HERE.

Basically we don't agree with the cult dogma. That must be hard to handle.

>ARE YOU TOO GOOD TO BE POWERLESS???

Yes, I value myself and try to look after myself today, and do not continue

the self-abusive " humility " (pathological and dangerous ego destruction)

that I learned in AA and NA. And I do not subscribe to the Oxford-Group

derived folklore of powerlessness. It has no medical or scientific basis,

so why would I want to believe in it? I feel SO much better now that I

don't do that nonsense any more. And you know what I found? I found that

this works a lot better. I am still abstinent, nine years after my last 12

step meeting, and I feel happy and balanced in a way I never experienced as

a stepper. And you know what else I found? I found that mental health

principles do not support telling people they are " powerless " , and

especially not over an inanimate liquid in a bottle, or a disease that does

not exist. I know this is probably very hard to grasp, but there are people

out here who have been where you are now (believing in the goodness and

rightness of the 12 step program) and who got some more information on

addiction, recovery, and cults, and who decided that the 12 step program is

not quite as wonderful, helpful OR effective as its cracked up to be.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you for your post. It isn't often that we are treated to such a fine

example of thinking errors here. Sadly, none of what is writ LARGE here (by

you) is based in what might be mistaken for logical conclusions based on a

thoughtful handling of the material. Rather, what you have shared is

evidence of illogical misdirected anger. Judging from (your) what you must

believe to be rhetorical discourse, I would say: " Sounds like you need a

meeting young man! " I suggest you go there, and leave us nice grounded in

reality folks alone.

llawrence@...

Re: the biggest joke of all

>

> > What's the point? Are you saying the fact that Apple is getting

> > treatment invalidates everything she says about the Step programs?

>

> YOU GOT TO ADMIT, IT DOES LOOK KIND OF SILLY. SHE BADMOUTHS TREATMENT

> CENTERS, AND THEN SHE ENTERS ONE! BUT THAT'S OK. EVERYONE HAS TO EAT

> THEIR WORDS SOMETIME.

>

>

> > Personally, I've needed treatment most of my adult life, whether I was

> > involved in a Step program or not. Being mentally ill does not mean

> > that I have to put up with " NA and the bullshit that goes with it. "

> Nor

> > does it relieve me of my ethical obligation to do something about all

> > that " bullshit. "

>

> NOPE. BUT BEING MENTALLY ILL JUST MAY BE WHY YOU CAN'T GET THE 12 STEP

> MODEL. eVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT???

>

>

> > The fact that Apple's checking in for treatment (NOT 12-Step

> treatment,

> > by the way) doesn't change the fact that the " bullshit " is going on.

> > And the " bullshit " will continue until enough people speak up and put

> > an end to it.

>

> WELL WHILE SHE'S IN THERE, MAYBE SHE WILL " CATCH ALCOHOLISM " .

> PERSONALLY, I THINK SHE HAS ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE OF 12 STEP THEORY TO KNOW

> THE DIFFERENCE. SHE DOESN'T SEE IT AS DANGEROUS, OR SHE WOULDN'T BE

> GOING INTO A TREATMENT CENTER.

>

> > " Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this. "

> >

> > Go ahead and tell 'em. Apple knows Steppers are lurking in this forum.

> > She's getting treatment for painful psychological problems. If they

> get

> > a big laugh over her mental anguish, it just shows what passes for

> > compassion in Step Land. Publish and be damned.

>

> YES, AND AA'S HAVE PAINFUL PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS. FUNNY HOW IT'S OK

> FOR ANTI-12 STEPPERS TO GET A BIG LAUGH OVER THE 12 STEPPERS. IF

> YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE FAIR, YOU COULD AT LEAST BE MORE INTELLIGENT

> ABOUT YOUR APPROACH.

>

>

> > " I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later. "

> >

> > Yeah, well at least Apple's turning to conventional psychiatry instead

> > of " hitting on her knees " or " turning it over " to a doorknob.

>

> NO, SHE'S JUST HITTING HER KNEES AND TURNING IT OVER TO A SHRINK. SAME

> DIFFERENCE.

> I HOPE THE BEST FOR HER.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup

> Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.

> Install today:

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>

[Guest guest]

Jim:

> > What's the point? Are you saying the fact that Apple is getting

> > treatment invalidates everything she says about the Step programs?

>

: YOU GOT TO ADMIT, IT DOES LOOK KIND OF SILLY. SHE BADMOUTHS

TREATMENT

> CENTERS, AND THEN SHE ENTERS ONE! BUT THAT'S OK. EVERYONE HAS TO EAT

> THEIR WORDS SOMETIME.

Jim again: And Steppers claim not to be anti-psychiatry, anti-doctor,

anti-treatment. Apparently you are, however, or you wouldn't be

ridiculing Apple for getting treatment. How do those words taste?

Jim:

> > Personally, I've needed treatment most of my adult life, whether I

was

> > involved in a Step program or not. Being mentally ill does not mean

> > that I have to put up with " NA and the bullshit that goes with it. "

> Nor

> > does it relieve me of my ethical obligation to do something about

all

> > that " bullshit. "

>

: NOPE. BUT BEING MENTALLY ILL JUST MAY BE WHY YOU CAN'T GET THE

12 STEP

> MODEL. eVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT???

Jim again: Yeah, I've thought about it plenty.

How many alkies and addicts do you know who aren't mentally ill,

especially newcomers? Alcoholism and addiction are supposed to be

mental illnesses in themselves, according to Step dogma. So if the

Steps don't work for the mentally ill, they won't work for any

alcoholic or addict. Sounds like a Catch-22 to me. Maybe that accounts

for the 95% first-year dropout rate in AA.

Anyway, if I was too crazy to work the Steps, the professional

12-Steppers at the treatment center must've known that. They took my

money anyway. So if what you're suggesting is true, they ripped me off.

So much for rigorous honesty among Steppers.

Femstroke: " Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this. "

> >

Jim: Go ahead and tell 'em. Apple knows Steppers are lurking in this

forum.

> > She's getting treatment for painful psychological problems. If they

> get

> > a big laugh over her mental anguish, it just shows what passes for

> > compassion in Step Land. Publish and be damned.

>

: YES, AND AA'S HAVE PAINFUL PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS. FUNNY HOW

IT'S OK

> FOR ANTI-12 STEPPERS TO GET A BIG LAUGH OVER THE 12 STEPPERS. IF

> YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE FAIR, YOU COULD AT LEAST BE MORE INTELLIGENT

> ABOUT YOUR APPROACH.

Jim again: I and a few other posters in this forum have been debating

the Steppers on Delphi. So far we've resisted the temptation to say

" Nyah, nyah, nyah " to the AA people who admit they have to get

treatment for psychological problems. By the way, if they have " painful

psychological problems, " they're probably mentally ill. So the presence

or absence of mental illness must not have anything to do with whether

or not one " can't get the 12-Step Model, " contrary to your earlier

claim.

Jim: at least Apple's turning to conventional psychiatry instead

> > of " hitting on her knees " or " turning it over " to a doorknob.

>

: NO, SHE'S JUST HITTING HER KNEES AND TURNING IT OVER TO A

SHRINK. SAME

> DIFFERENCE.

Jim again: If you don't know the difference between a shrink and a

doorknob, you probably suffer from similar confusion over your ass and

a hole in the ground.

: I HOPE THE BEST FOR HER.

Jim: Then why are you ridiculing her? And why did you wait for this

vulnerable moment in her life to attack? Are you devoid of balls? How

long have you been lurking here waiting for this opportunity to present

itself? Is this like the Step tradition of picking on newcomers because

they're weak and clueless, while sucking up to oldtimers because they

know they have the right to tell you to go fuck yourself if you try to

" take their inventory " ?

[Guest guest]

" the divine rebekah " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13328

> Why are you yelling at me? Ahh yes I am familiar with the term

denial. It's

> actually a term used in psychiatric communities to describe a

sometimes very

> healthy coping mechanism. Most people who use the term have

absolutely no

> background in counseling whatsoever. It's a concept that AA does not

have a

> monopoly on. Actually, a lot of AA members throw it around

indiscriminately

> for a lot of absurd reasons. Unfortunately for many steppers it's

just a

> convenient way to say that they disaagree, but not by being honest

about the

> disagreement, but by shaming and blaming... insinuating that there

must be

> something wrong with the person. Kind of sideways.

>

> So anyway...are you here just to troll?

A TROLL?

THAT'S REAL FUNNY CONSIDERING SOME OF YOUR MEMBERS POSTED THEIR

" STRATEGY " FOR GOING INTO AA CHAT AND " PRETENDING " TO WANT TO DRINK AND

THE OTHER ONE BRINGING THEM DOWN. THEN THEY ENJOYED SEEING THE AA'S

PISSED OFF ABOUT IT.

AND YOU CALL ME A TROLL??

I THINK I'VE HEARD IT ALL.

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I value myself and try to look after myself today, and do not

continue

> the self-abusive " humility " (pathological and dangerous ego

destruction)

> that I learned in AA and NA.

FUNNY HOW ONE VIEWS HUMILITY AS " SELF-ABUSIVE " . TO ME HUMILITY IS AN

ASSET.

And I do not subscribe to the Oxford-Group

> derived folklore of powerlessness. It has no medical or scientific

basis,

> so why would I want to believe in it?

SOMETIMES IT TAKES A LONG TIME BEFORE AN IDEA IS PROVEN.

I feel SO much better now that I

> don't do that nonsense any more. And you know what I found? I found

that

> this works a lot better. I am still abstinent, nine years after my

last 12

> step meeting, and I feel happy and balanced in a way I never

experienced as

> a stepper. And you know what else I found? I found that mental health

> principles do not support telling people they are " powerless " , and

> especially not over an inanimate liquid in a bottle, or a disease

that does

> not exist.

IF MENTAL HEALTH PRINCIPLES ARE THE WAY IN WHICH YOU DESCRIBE, THEN WHY

DO MOST MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS SUPPORT 12 STEP PROGRAMS?

I know this is probably very hard to grasp, but there are people

> out here who have been where you are now (believing in the goodness

and

> rightness of the 12 step program) and who got some more information

on

> addiction, recovery, and cults, and who decided that the 12 step

program is

> not quite as wonderful, helpful OR effective as its cracked up to be.

>

>

> Joe B.

I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK AA/NA IS A CULT. PEOPLE THINK MANY

GROUPS ARE CULTS. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. WHEN YOU COMPARE THE

NUMBER OF THOSE WHO THINK ITS A CULT TO THOSE WHO HAVE FOUND SUCCESS IN

AA, YOUR ARGUEMENT IS TRIVIAL AND ELEMENTARY.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Pete!

I don't believe that 99% of people suffer from a disease called

codependency, but the relating patterns which really span the gamut of

human behavior are good to put into words and recognize. As I said, if

anything is funny or fishy, it will serve as fresh material for me.

Apple

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13299

> Hi Apple

>

> The reason I supported you in this is because I know rehabs can help

> *in spite* of steppism rather than because of it, and in practice

they

> do things that are actually contradictory with their claimed steppist

> beliefs but they dont notice the contradiction. diener used to

> roast me simply because I posted a project I had done which concluded

> that codependency might be a useful concept. No suggestion that

> steppism was the way to respond to it ( IIRC I dont think I even

> *mentioned* steppism in it) and I also said that it could be simply

> what personality theorists often call Neuroticism or Instability i.e.

> nothing new at all, yet that wasnt good enough for him. I am far more

> sympathetic to CoDA than AA because I think it actually puts the

reason

> for much adult distress, including addiction, correctly where it

> belongs, in undatisfactory nurturing in childhood.

>

> again, good luck.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh this is getting too silly. I've explained my angle and purpose and

I too find it funny that I'm going to a rehab facility, but I can

assure you that it's an empowering and healing move which, based on my

preliminary research employs exercises which are COUNTER to the AA / NA

way. I'm not going for whatever will be happening " next door " in the

substance abuse program, although I will try to take a peek inside to

see exactly what's happenig.

If I have to " eat my words " as you say, I will do it honestly and

fairly after I complete the workshop... Look... I promise a full

report when I get back... grant me the respect that I will hold firm to

my promise.

Apple

> YOU GOT TO ADMIT, IT DOES LOOK KIND OF SILLY. SHE BADMOUTHS TREATMENT

> CENTERS, AND THEN SHE ENTERS ONE! BUT THAT'S OK. EVERYONE HAS TO EAT

> THEIR WORDS SOMETIME.

[Guest guest]

Speaks volumes of what exactly ? Denial? What is it that I'm

denying?

Apple

> HEY DIVINE REBEKAH,

> SHE MAY NOT ACTUALLY SAY THAT SHE IS POWERLESS, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE

> IS GOING INTO TREATMENT SPEAKS VOLUMES.

> THERE'S A WORD FOR THIS. IT'S CALLED " DENIAL " . FAMILIAR WITH IT???

> AND BY THE WAY, PEOPLE GO TO AA TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES. YOU JUST

> APPARENTLY COULDN'T GET IT.

[Guest guest]

, FYI, using all caps in Internet conversation is akin to

yelling. Kindly turn off your caps lock key.

I never bought the paradoxes of AA myself. In Hassan's wonderful

book, " Combatting Cult Mind Control " he addresses this very issue. He

states that when conflicting information is delivered congruently, it

creates confusion. Instead of people having doubt in the statement, in

the group setting, people learn to have doubt in themselves so that

faith in the statement and the " integrity " of the system can prevail.

The idea of powerlessness doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't hold

ground within a logic oriented system. If your electricity went out and

you called the utility company, and they told you that powerlessness

means that you finally have power, it might make you upset, would it

not?

People are not powerless. Would you vote for a presidential candidate

who had claimed his power by admitting that he is powerless over

people, places and things? Of course not.

To seduce, to manipualte, to coerce, to convince, to educate, to impel

are all ways of exercising power over people.

To go to, to avoid, to visit, to invade are all ways of exercising

power over places.

To handle, to mow, to till, to destroy, to build are all ways of

exercising power over things.

It seems too elementary to go on.

Apple

> EVER HEARD OF A PARADOX???

> YOU RECEIVE EMPOWERMENT FROM ADMITTING POWRLESSNESS.

> I SEE YOU COULDN'T GET IT EITHER.

> AND IF YOU CAN'T GET IT, HOW CONVENIENT FOR YOU TO SAY IT ISN'T REAL.

> IT'S VERY REAL. IF PEOPLE WERE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO STOP ON THEIR ON,

> THERE WOULDN'T BE THE LARGE NUMBER OF DRUNKS FLOCKING TO AA.

> YES, A LOT DO LEAVE BEFORE THEY GET IT, BUT THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE

> FAULT OF THE PROGRAM. THEY LEAVE BECAUSE OF THEIR ATTITUDE.

> AND THERE'S A LOT OF ARROGANT ATITTUDE PROBLEMS AROUND HERE.

> ARE YOU TOO GOOD TO BE POWERLESS???

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't do that, nor do I approve of it. I don't go to AA meetings and try

to get people to leave.

It's perfectly fine if someone wants to go to AA, feels it is helping them.

No problem. What I do object to is anyone not giving me the same freedom to

find what works for me. Thanks for at least explaining why you are here and

what your motives are. It seems like you are trying to pick a fight with

everyone here. I'm sorry you feel the need to do that. Rebekah

>A TROLL?

>THAT'S REAL FUNNY CONSIDERING SOME OF YOUR MEMBERS POSTED THEIR

> " STRATEGY " FOR GOING INTO AA CHAT AND " PRETENDING " TO WANT TO DRINK AND

>THE OTHER ONE BRINGING THEM DOWN. THEN THEY ENJOYED SEEING THE AA'S

>PISSED OFF ABOUT IT.

>AND YOU CALL ME A TROLL??

>I THINK I'VE HEARD IT ALL.

[Guest guest]

>

> And I do not subscribe to the Oxford-Group

> > derived folklore of powerlessness. It has no medical or scientific

> basis,

> > so why would I want to believe in it?

>

> SOMETIMES IT TAKES A LONG TIME BEFORE AN IDEA IS PROVEN.

>

Well then , wouldn't it be better to prove it before it is

utilized? Kinda like letting a pharmaceutical into the marketplace

without FDA approval.

I don't believe that most mental health workers support 12 step

programs. From where have you drawn your conclusions? The rooms?

>

> IF MENTAL HEALTH PRINCIPLES ARE THE WAY IN WHICH YOU DESCRIBE, THEN

WHY

> DO MOST MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS SUPPORT 12 STEP PROGRAMS?

>

Apple

[Guest guest]

I agree and I don't get why Apple would externalize her life to others. As

a social worker for, (oh god-it is!) twenty-eight years and having seen the

fads come and go I can tell you that these expensive rehabs don't work.

Gestalt was meant to help catarticize one on one with the counsellor and it

made people more mad rather than less. We now know that expressing your

anger (see Psychology Today issue last June) aggrevates the anger. No body

but nobody got what they wanted from their family. We have become a nation

of victims. We think we are owed something because we were hurt. We are

owed nothing. We need to take personal responsibility for today and for not

focusing on the negative. Do something interesting. I am sad to hear

Valliant and Apple have changed their focus. Is there more attention and

validation in victimhood. I have a cartoon over my desk which shows a

counsellor in single session therapy - whack! Get over it! Take a vacation

instead. Go scuba diving. Go to church.

I doubt Apple will find a single answer from this program. Areosmith are

out of it. Apple could rise to the top as a public speaker, committee

contributer, media spokesperson for the volitional model. Now, no one will

give her credibility as she shows her stance is volitional is tenuous.

Read the Co Dependency Conpiracy. It is not a term even in the DSM. What

does it mean? If it is overriding your own welfare to fulfill the welfare

of others then that can be good or bad. If they are sick then it is support

you are giving. Really the term is psychobabble (another book by that name

too). Some people are counselling junkies and go from one self help to

another while it fills time and substitutes for deciding what is right for

you yourself.

I was sad to hear Apple collaspse on that hill.

Anyway things may change,

but even then she has lost credibility as one who is sure of her

ideological stance no matter how many times she changes it.

Take care,

carol

At 12:13 PM 3/14/00 -0800, you wrote:

>What????

>Did I read it correctly????

>I have been lurking here for quite a while now. I was fed up with NA

>and the bullshit that goes with it.

>Now I read that MS APPLE, infamouse creator of AA DEPROGRAMMING is

>going into TREATMENT????

>This is the same person that has given a large portion of her recent

>life to combatting the 12 step programs?

>Now she's going into treatment?

>Wait till my 12 step buddies here about this.

>I guess being powerless comes to us all sooner or later.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com:

>http://click./1/2377/1/_/4324/_/953064830/

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

http://www.bcrecovernet.org

[Guest guest]

So what kind of therapy could I engage in and not lose my credibility

in your eyes Carol? None? Surely you must support certain types of

therapy otherwise you would not have chosen to be a social worker for

28+ years. In no way do I " buy " the codependency model hook line &

sinker. The types of therapies offered at the center sounded

interesting to me, and I do feel that repressed anger is worked out by

bringing it to the surface, expressing it, and allowing it to transform

into other stages of feeling. When I attended therapy for rape, feeling

my anger, expressing my anger, including screaming and crying (mostly

screaming) was what brought that repressed anger to the surface to

allow the healing to take place. I personally experienced this. It was

very intense.

In AA I held that anger in for over 6 years. The effects of holding it

in were extremely damaging. I found myself acting punitively with men

and hating them all on some level. It took a good year for the anger

to subside, and now that it finally has, I'm in a relationship with a

man that I could not have had if I had not engaged in an active healing

process.

I may read the magazine article you list, because I'm always interested

in other points of view.

But by and large, I was saddened to read your post... namely that you

don't give me more credit than that...

Apple

carol francey wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13420

> I agree and I don't get why Apple would externalize her life to

others. As

> a social worker for, (oh god-it is!) twenty-eight years and having

seen the

> fads come and go I can tell you that these expensive rehabs don't

work.

> Gestalt was meant to help catarticize one on one with the counsellor

and it

> made people more mad rather than less. We now know that expressing

your

> anger (see Psychology Today issue last June) aggrevates the anger. No

body

> but nobody got what they wanted from their family. We have become a

nation

> of victims. We think we are owed something because we were hurt. We

are

> owed nothing. We need to take personal responsibility for today and

for not

> focusing on the negative. Do something interesting. I am sad to hear

> Valliant and Apple have changed their focus. Is there more attention

and

> validation in victimhood. I have a cartoon over my desk which shows a

> counsellor in single session therapy - whack! Get over it! Take a

vacation

> instead. Go scuba diving. Go to church.

> I doubt Apple will find a single answer from this program. Areosmith

are

> out of it. Apple could rise to the top as a public speaker, committee

> contributer, media spokesperson for the volitional model. Now, no one

will

> give her credibility as she shows her stance is volitional is tenuous.

> Read the Co Dependency Conpiracy. It is not a term even in the DSM.

What

> does it mean? If it is overriding your own welfare to fulfill the

welfare

> of others then that can be good or bad. If they are sick then it is

support

> you are giving. Really the term is psychobabble (another book by that

name

> too). Some people are counselling junkies and go from one self help

to

> another while it fills time and substitutes for deciding what is

right for

> you yourself.

> I was sad to hear Apple collaspse on that hill.

> Anyway things may change,

> but even then she has lost credibility as one who is sure of her

> ideological stance no matter how many times she changes it.

> Take care,

> carol

[Guest guest]

carol francey wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13420

> No body

> but nobody got what they wanted from their family. We have become a

nation

> of victims. We think we are owed something because we were hurt. We

are

> owed nothing. We need to take personal responsibility for today and

for not

> focusing on the negative.

A grouper could not have put it more succinctly Carol. Imho, it might

be better to speak only for yourself.

P.