Re: 12stfr seems really odd

[Guest guest]

<< This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA and

have intelligent conversations, it looks like some

weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me wrong-

I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ), but a

newcomer to this list would probably go " What the Hell

?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking hairdryers,

this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that if I

really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related problem

you guys would be there, but it just occured to me

that a person new to this list just might go " f-this,

I'm outta here. "

Anywho. >>

I agree. I usually wind up deleting 2/3rds of the messages I've been

receiving because all that nonsense is boring me.

When I was reading alt.recovery.aa a long while back, I found the same sort

of thing, a lot of off-topic silliness and in-group " humor " .

Tim

[Guest guest]

The best sign of getting over AA is that we can talk about other stuff and find

humor in it.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

> This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

>without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA and

>have intelligent conversations, it looks like some

>weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me wrong-

>I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ), but a

>newcomer to this list would probably go " What the Hell

>?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking hairdryers,

>this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that if I

>really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related problem

>you guys would be there, but it just occured to me

>that a person new to this list just might go " f-this,

>I'm outta here. "

>

> Anywho.

>

> Kim

>__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Newcomer here....and I am laughing my rear off reading these

posts.

As I approach that 1 year mark, I have lived, breathed and

dreamed sobriety, sobriety, sobriety and AA. I have just begun

to come out of this damn recovery " coma. "

So, I find all these posts very refreshing...on and off topic.

Last meeting I attended, I gave myself a great big chuckle

by replacing Spam with God every time it was mentioned.

So, thanks for the laughter!

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:16 -0800

>

>The best sign of getting over AA is that we can talk about other stuff and

>find humor in it.

>---

>Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

>

>

> >

> > This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

> >without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA and

> >have intelligent conversations, it looks like some

> >weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me wrong-

> >I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ), but a

> >newcomer to this list would probably go " What the Hell

> >?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking hairdryers,

> >this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that if I

> >really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related problem

> >you guys would be there, but it just occured to me

> >that a person new to this list just might go " f-this,

> >I'm outta here. "

> >

> > Anywho.

> >

> > Kim

> >__________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

I meant replacing the word " spam " in place of the word

" god "

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 04:30:45 GMT

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> Newcomer here....and I am laughing my rear off reading these

> posts.

>

> As I approach that 1 year mark, I have lived, breathed and

> dreamed sobriety, sobriety, sobriety and AA. I have just begun

> to come out of this damn recovery " coma. "

>

> So, I find all these posts very refreshing...on and off topic.

>

> Last meeting I attended, I gave myself a great big chuckle

> by replacing Spam with God every time it was mentioned.

>

> So, thanks for the laughter!

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:16 -0800

>>

>>The best sign of getting over AA is that we can talk about other stuff and

>>find humor in it.

>>---

>>Kayleigh

>>

>> Zz

>> zZ

>> |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

>> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

>> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> >

>> > This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

>> >without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA and

>> >have intelligent conversations, it looks like some

>> >weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me wrong-

>> >I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ), but a

>> >newcomer to this list would probably go " What the Hell

>> >?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking hairdryers,

>> >this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that if I

>> >really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related problem

>> >you guys would be there, but it just occured to me

>> >that a person new to this list just might go " f-this,

>> >I'm outta here. "

>> >

>> > Anywho.

>> >

>> > Kim

>> >__________________________________________________

>> >

[Guest guest]

if you really want to freak out members of your group,

get a copy of any stanton peele book, or Jack trimpey

book, or any of these posts and bring it too an AA

meeting...but get out of the way, because you will

have a swarm of angry bees on your hands...these

groups are operating on such a fragile reality that it

is easy to manipulate them to do what you want them to

do

--- sue styd wrote:

>

> Hi All,

>

> Newcomer here....and I am laughing my rear off

> reading these

> posts.

>

> As I approach that 1 year mark, I have lived,

> breathed and

> dreamed sobriety, sobriety, sobriety and AA. I

> have just begun

> to come out of this damn recovery " coma. "

>

> So, I find all these posts very refreshing...on

> and off topic.

>

> Last meeting I attended, I gave myself a great

> big chuckle

> by replacing Spam with God every time it was

> mentioned.

>

> So, thanks for the laughter!

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

> >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:16 -0800

> >

> >The best sign of getting over AA is that we can

> talk about other stuff and

> >find humor in it.

> >---

> >Kayleigh

> >

> > Zz

> > zZ

> > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> > '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

> > >without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA

> and

> > >have intelligent conversations, it looks like

> some

> > >weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me

> wrong-

> > >I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ),

> but a

> > >newcomer to this list would probably go " What the

> Hell

> > >?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking

> hairdryers,

> > >this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that

> if I

> > >really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related

> problem

> > >you guys would be there, but it just occured to

> me

> > >that a person new to this list just might

> go " f-this,

> > >I'm outta here. "

> > >

> > > Anywho.

> > >

> > > Kim

> >

> >__________________________________________________

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

methods you now apply to staying sober. Don't forget, you are

still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

when I am frazzled. Now what?

Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

Thanks,

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:45:10 -0800 (PST)

>

>if you really want to freak out members of your group,

>

>get a copy of any stanton peele book, or Jack trimpey

>book, or any of these posts and bring it too an AA

>meeting...but get out of the way, because you will

>have a swarm of angry bees on your hands...these

>groups are operating on such a fragile reality that it

>is easy to manipulate them to do what you want them to

>do

>

>--- sue styd wrote:

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Newcomer here....and I am laughing my rear off

> > reading these

> > posts.

> >

> > As I approach that 1 year mark, I have lived,

> > breathed and

> > dreamed sobriety, sobriety, sobriety and AA. I

> > have just begun

> > to come out of this damn recovery " coma. "

> >

> > So, I find all these posts very refreshing...on

> > and off topic.

> >

> > Last meeting I attended, I gave myself a great

> > big chuckle

> > by replacing Spam with God every time it was

> > mentioned.

> >

> > So, thanks for the laughter!

> >

> > Sue

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

> > >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:29:16 -0800

> > >

> > >The best sign of getting over AA is that we can

> > talk about other stuff and

> > >find humor in it.

> > >---

> > >Kayleigh

> > >

> > > Zz

> > > zZ

> > > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> > > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> > > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> > > '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > This is getting weird. If you look at the posts

> > > >without knowing that on occasion we talk about AA

> > and

> > > >have intelligent conversations, it looks like

> > some

> > > >weird Star Trekkers fan club list. Don't get me

> > wrong-

> > > >I'm a big Star Trek fan-( " assimilate THIS!HA! " ),

> > but a

> > > >newcomer to this list would probably go " What the

> > Hell

> > > >?!! Zebra Donkeys, Spam, Cats attacking

> > hairdryers,

> > > >this is f-ing WEIRD. I'm just saying. I know that

> > if I

> > > >really wanted to talk about an ex-AA related

> > problem

> > > >you guys would be there, but it just occured to

> > me

> > > >that a person new to this list just might

> > go " f-this,

> > > >I'm outta here. "

> > > >

> > > > Anywho.

> > > >

> > > > Kim

> > >

> > >__________________________________________________

> > > >

[Guest guest]

At 00:56 22/12/99 +0000, you wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

>

> my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

>

> If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

>

> methods you now apply to staying sober. Don't forget, you are

>

> still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

>

> alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

>

> when I am frazzled. Now what?

>

> Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

>

> empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Sue

Recovering from being brainwashed is probably a gradual process. Speaking

for myself I used the 12 step method (if it even deserves such a title) and

after a few years I found I was believing in it less and less and starting

to find evidence that the things I believed from my 12 step programming

were simply not true. I gradually made the astounding logical leap from

" some of this is obviously not true " to " if some of it is obviously not

true, maybe none of it is true " to " hey this is just a cult, isn't it! " .

The thing is, if none of it is true, (lets just say if) then maybe there is

no need to " do something in order to stay sober " . Maybe all you have to do

is just -stay sober! The justification for all the religion and the

meetings for life and workingthestepsundertheguidanceofasponsor is that

" addiction is an incurable killer disease " . Well it isn't. Addictive

behaviour is just- behaviour. People can change their behaviour. People do

it all the time. Calling it a disease when it is just a behaviour serves to

keep meetings well supplied with malleable human fodder but little else.

Personally, when I feel I need some sort of help or some sort of " program "

(aaarrgh!) I use the SMART approach and just use cognitive therapy stuff.

CT is easy, unlike the steps it is logical and makes sense, and unlike the

steps it actually works. Or sometimes I use something called Psychology of

Mind. Both of these approaches are used by properly qualified professionals

to solve a variety of human problems. They have some integrity and they

are not used to abuse and control people. Websites for these two options,

if you are at all interested, are;

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

http://www.pomhr.com/

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sue!

It took time, but it really faded away for me. The idea that some

" method " must be applied to stay sober. That was part of the

programming. Staying sober is not an activity, it is the result of the

avoidance of an activity. Namely the ingestion of alcohol. I don't

think about life in relationship to alcohol anymore. I clung to this

list for a while, in the beginning and even felt a compulsion to join

an alternative program, but I realized that my compulsion to have a

program was part of the brainwashing too.

Hang in there, feel your feelings, don't drink alcohol (if you don't

want to), and the fears/beliefs and pathological thiking surrounding

" sobriety " will fade away in due time.

Apple

" sue styd " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10637

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

>

> my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

>

> If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

>

> methods you now apply to staying sober. Don't forget, you are

>

> still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

>

> alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

>

> when I am frazzled. Now what?

>

> Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

>

> empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

>

>

> Thanks,

>

> Sue

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the reply and for sending those sites.

You are so right...by thinking I am " diseased " , I will always be

stinking helpless and " diseased. " But--behaviors can be

changed. And like you said, maybe all it takes to stay sober is

to stay sober. What a concept.

Anyway, got any advice on the damn fears they instill? I am

quite sure that I will not leave AA and drink and die, but that

thought has been so strongly repeated to me, that some little

part of me is afraid. Can you understand this feeling? I want

to get out of there......but I do feel slightly hesitant.

Damn, I want to live life. Going to AA forever is not what

I consider " manageable. " That is just another mess.

Thanks,

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:05:30 +0000

>

>At 00:56 22/12/99 +0000, you wrote:

>

>> Hi All,

>>

>> I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

>>

>> my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

>>

>> If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

>>

>> methods you now apply to staying sober. Don't forget, you are

>>

>> still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

>>

>> alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

>>

>> when I am frazzled. Now what?

>>

>> Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

>>

>> empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

>>

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Sue

>

>Recovering from being brainwashed is probably a gradual process. Speaking

>for myself I used the 12 step method (if it even deserves such a title) and

>after a few years I found I was believing in it less and less and starting

>to find evidence that the things I believed from my 12 step programming

>were simply not true. I gradually made the astounding logical leap from

> " some of this is obviously not true " to " if some of it is obviously not

>true, maybe none of it is true " to " hey this is just a cult, isn't it! " .

>The thing is, if none of it is true, (lets just say if) then maybe there is

>no need to " do something in order to stay sober " . Maybe all you have to do

>is just -stay sober! The justification for all the religion and the

>meetings for life and workingthestepsundertheguidanceofasponsor is that

> " addiction is an incurable killer disease " . Well it isn't. Addictive

>behaviour is just- behaviour. People can change their behaviour. People do

>it all the time. Calling it a disease when it is just a behaviour serves to

>keep meetings well supplied with malleable human fodder but little else.

>Personally, when I feel I need some sort of help or some sort of " program "

>(aaarrgh!) I use the SMART approach and just use cognitive therapy stuff.

>CT is easy, unlike the steps it is logical and makes sense, and unlike the

>steps it actually works. Or sometimes I use something called Psychology of

>Mind. Both of these approaches are used by properly qualified professionals

>to solve a variety of human problems. They have some integrity and they

>are not used to abuse and control people. Websites for these two options,

>if you are at all interested, are;

>

>http://www.smartrecovery.org/

>

>http://www.pomhr.com/

>

>Joe B.

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!

>Gator fills in forms and remembers passwords with NO TYPING at over

>100,000 web sites! Get $100 in coupons for trying Gator!

>http://click./1/340/1/_/4324/_/945828389

>

>-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

>-- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 03:35 22/12/99 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Joe,

>

> Thanks for the reply and for sending those sites.

>

> You are so right...by thinking I am " diseased " , I will always be

>

> stinking helpless and " diseased. " But--behaviors can be

>

> changed. And like you said, maybe all it takes to stay sober is

>

> to stay sober. What a concept.

>

> Anyway, got any advice on the damn fears they instill? I am

>

> quite sure that I will not leave AA and drink and die, but that

>

> thought has been so strongly repeated to me, that some little

>

> part of me is afraid. Can you understand this feeling? I want

>

> to get out of there......but I do feel slightly hesitant.

>

> Damn, I want to live life. Going to AA forever is not what

>

> I consider " manageable. " That is just another mess.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Sue

I understand that feeling very well. I consider myself a fairly good

example of someone who took the program totally seriously and completely

believed in the disease hocus-pocus for years. Afterwards, I found that it

helped a lot to write down exactly what all the old beliefs were and then

write down as far as I was able exactly what I thought was wrong with them

and what I thought was really true in each case. By getting to grips with

what I really believed I found out what it was. This is very good for

fighting against the stuff that you pick up in 12 step programs. It is also

good for counteracting the tendency you might pick up In AA to not say what

you really think and only participating in approved group-think instead. By

thinking for yourself you are getting your own mind back. By writing it

down you are affirming that these really are your own thoughts. I also

found reading the various books that debunk the myths essential. Like

" Addiction Change and Choice " by Vince Fox, and " The Real AA " by Ken Ragge.

And there are a few more books like this now. BUT- I'm a fairly extreme

example and I think I really NEEDED to do all that. You might not. You

might be able to do what Apple did and suggested in her response to you. We

are all different and we don't necessarily all need to do the same things.

I would recommend reading the books anyway. Apple has a reading list on her

site.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but it might help to remember that

the whole A.A. program has been proven in many courts to be based on lies. Trust

yourself- you're a lot more believable than A.A.

One other thought. When you get bummed out, throw a message on the board that

you're in the chat room, and then go into it. I'm sure someone will jump in

there and chill with you. It may take a while for someone to see your post,

but it might be worth the wait.

Sincerely, Bob Warner

>

> Hi Joe,

>

> Thanks for the reply and for sending those sites.

>

> You are so right...by thinking I am " diseased " , I will always be

>

> stinking helpless and " diseased. " But--behaviors can be

>

> changed. And like you said, maybe all it takes to stay sober is

>

> to stay sober. What a concept.

>

> Anyway, got any advice on the damn fears they instill? I am

>

> quite sure that I will not leave AA and drink and die, but that

>

> thought has been so strongly repeated to me, that some little

>

> part of me is afraid. Can you understand this feeling? I want

>

> to get out of there......but I do feel slightly hesitant.

>

> Damn, I want to live life. Going to AA forever is not what

>

> I consider " manageable. " That is just another mess.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:05:30 +0000

>>

>>At 00:56 22/12/99 +0000, you wrote:

>>

>>> Hi All,

>>>

>>> I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

>>>

>>> my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

>>>

>>> If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

>>>

>>> methods you now apply to staying sober. Don't forget, you are

>>>

>>> still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

>>>

>>> alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

>>>

>>> when I am frazzled. Now what?

>>>

>>> Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

>>>

>>> empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

>>>

>>>

>>> Thanks,

>>>

>>> Sue

>>

>>Recovering from being brainwashed is probably a gradual process. Speaking

>>for myself I used the 12 step method (if it even deserves such a title) and

>>after a few years I found I was believing in it less and less and starting

>>to find evidence that the things I believed from my 12 step programming

>>were simply not true. I gradually made the astounding logical leap from

>> " some of this is obviously not true " to " if some of it is obviously not

>>true, maybe none of it is true " to " hey this is just a cult, isn't it! " .

>>The thing is, if none of it is true, (lets just say if) then maybe there is

>>no need to " do something in order to stay sober " . Maybe all you have to do

>>is just -stay sober! The justification for all the religion and the

>>meetings for life and workingthestepsundertheguidanceofasponsor is that

>> " addiction is an incurable killer disease " . Well it isn't. Addictive

>>behaviour is just- behaviour. People can change their behaviour. People do

>>it all the time. Calling it a disease when it is just a behaviour serves to

>>keep meetings well supplied with malleable human fodder but little else.

>>Personally, when I feel I need some sort of help or some sort of " program "

>>(aaarrgh!) I use the SMART approach and just use cognitive therapy stuff.

>>CT is easy, unlike the steps it is logical and makes sense, and unlike the

>>steps it actually works. Or sometimes I use something called Psychology of

>>Mind. Both of these approaches are used by properly qualified professionals

>>to solve a variety of human problems. They have some integrity and they

>>are not used to abuse and control people. Websites for these two options,

>>if you are at all interested, are;

>>

>>http://www.smartrecovery.org/

>>

>>http://www.pomhr.com/

>>

>>Joe B.

>>

>>

>>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU!

>>Gator fills in forms and remembers passwords with NO TYPING at over

>>100,000 web sites! Get $100 in coupons for trying Gator!

>>http://click./1/340/1/_/4324/_/945828389

>>

>>-- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

>>-- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>>

>>

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Sneezing, wheezing, trouble breathing? If you have allergies or asthma, or

>want to breathe happier and healthier, we can help. Visit gazoontite.com

>for the products, information and services you need to breathe easier.

>http://click./1/396/1/_/4324/_/945833726

>

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[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

>

> Hi All,

>

> I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone want to call

> my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

> If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear what sort of

> methods you now apply to staying sober.

My last drunk was a real horrorshow. The withdrawal (I quit abruptly,

thinking I didn't need to go to detox) touched off a psychotic episode, and

I had to be hospitalized. Whenever I think of drinking, I let my mind flash

back to how I felt in the emergency room, and then to all the things that

had happened to get me there, and I ask myself whether I want to go through

that again. That's my method.

Actually, I had come out of the hospital with a real determination to never

drink again. I started out going to AA meetings, and whenever there was a

discussion of the first step and how you are supposed to be powerless over

the first drink, I would think to myself " Well, this has got to be bullshit.

I can't AFFORD to be powerless over the first drink! " So when it was my turn

to talk, I would just mention some of the stuff that had happened when I

drank and beat around the bush about the " powerlessness. " In fact a couple

of times in meetings I said that I thought I could probably drink again and

control my drinking BUT the risk was too great if I happened to be wrong...

This raised a few eyebrows, of course.

In spite of the fact that I had " my own way " of working the program, which

included not being powerless, I was not feeling so great after 3 months of

daily meetings, and this is when I stumbled onto Stanton Peele's book " The

Diseasing of America " [actually while I was Christmas shopping, in '93, by

some coincidence ] and reading that started me seriously thinking that

maybe I didn't need AA after all. Peele's ideas seemed ultra-radical at

first, since I had been through several 28-day brainwashing programs in the

80s and had gone to at least 1000 AA meetings over the years. My copy of

that book still has notes penciled in the margin about how Peele " doesn't

really understand the Program and what it's like to be a Real Alcoholic " ,

etc., but about halfway through I started to wake up a bit. At that point I

started to read A LOT of stuff about alcoholism and alternative recovery. I

read all of Peele's books, all the RR and SOS stuff, the MM book, some

things about RET and cognitive therapy (having been pointed that way by RR).

Also several books by Szasz, some histories of the Temperance

movement, some philosophy, some history of religion, some " free-thought "

literature, etc. This may seems excessive [:-)] but at the time I had the

idea that understanding just what the hell was going on was a matter of life

and death, and there was NOBODY I could trust to give me the answers, so I

had to read everything that seemed relevant and figure it all out myself.

And I did.

What I got out of it all was a strong conviction that I really could do it

my way -- that I was on the right track. I used a little of the cognitive

therapy, but mainly I concluded that there were no " secrets " to staying

sober -- you just don't drink.

-- wally

> Don't forget, you are

> still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and I am feeling

> alittle insecure. After all, I have been " trained " what to do

> when I am frazzled. Now what?

> Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery fog " and I feel

> empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

>

> Thanks,

> Sue

[Guest guest]

Hi..name is Mike, new member of group..at the right

time, I made decision not to drink again.. then just

didn't...slugged through life, went through different

situations and didn't drink..found out lots of non

drinkers in general population to hang out

with...resisted pear pressure, etc...gained

confidence...it sounds like you are about ready to

leave the fold...I had to leave AA first b4 I could

sober up...like you used mental pictures of me

throwing up, etc. and concentrated on how good I felt

not putting alcohol in body...let me know how you are

doing

--- " wally t. " wrote:

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone

> want to call

> > my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

> > If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear

> what sort of

> > methods you now apply to staying sober.

>

> My last drunk was a real horrorshow. The withdrawal

> (I quit abruptly,

> thinking I didn't need to go to detox) touched off a

> psychotic episode, and

> I had to be hospitalized. Whenever I think of

> drinking, I let my mind flash

> back to how I felt in the emergency room, and then

> to all the things that

> had happened to get me there, and I ask myself

> whether I want to go through

> that again. That's my method.

>

> Actually, I had come out of the hospital with a real

> determination to never

> drink again. I started out going to AA meetings, and

> whenever there was a

> discussion of the first step and how you are

> supposed to be powerless over

> the first drink, I would think to myself " Well, this

> has got to be bullshit.

> I can't AFFORD to be powerless over the first

> drink! " So when it was my turn

> to talk, I would just mention some of the stuff that

> had happened when I

> drank and beat around the bush about the

> " powerlessness. " In fact a couple

> of times in meetings I said that I thought I could

> probably drink again and

> control my drinking BUT the risk was too great if I

> happened to be wrong...

> This raised a few eyebrows, of course.

>

> In spite of the fact that I had " my own way " of

> working the program, which

> included not being powerless, I was not feeling so

> great after 3 months of

> daily meetings, and this is when I stumbled onto

> Stanton Peele's book " The

> Diseasing of America " [actually while I was

> Christmas shopping, in '93, by

> some coincidence ] and reading that started me

> seriously thinking that

> maybe I didn't need AA after all. Peele's ideas

> seemed ultra-radical at

> first, since I had been through several 28-day

> brainwashing programs in the

> 80s and had gone to at least 1000 AA meetings over

> the years. My copy of

> that book still has notes penciled in the margin

> about how Peele " doesn't

> really understand the Program and what it's like to

> be a Real Alcoholic " ,

> etc., but about halfway through I started to wake up

> a bit. At that point I

> started to read A LOT of stuff about alcoholism and

> alternative recovery. I

> read all of Peele's books, all the RR and SOS stuff,

> the MM book, some

> things about RET and cognitive therapy (having been

> pointed that way by RR).

> Also several books by Szasz, some histories

> of the Temperance

> movement, some philosophy, some history of religion,

> some " free-thought "

> literature, etc. This may seems excessive [:-)] but

> at the time I had the

> idea that understanding just what the hell was going

> on was a matter of life

> and death, and there was NOBODY I could trust to

> give me the answers, so I

> had to read everything that seemed relevant and

> figure it all out myself.

> And I did.

>

> What I got out of it all was a strong conviction

> that I really could do it

> my way -- that I was on the right track. I used a

> little of the cognitive

> therapy, but mainly I concluded that there were no

> " secrets " to staying

> sober -- you just don't drink.

>

> -- wally

>

>

> > Don't forget, you are

> > still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and

> I am feeling

> > alittle insecure. After all, I have been

> " trained " what to do

> > when I am frazzled. Now what?

> > Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery

> fog " and I feel

> > empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Sue

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

One other message: you sound like a reader like me.

Another great book I have found is called, " How I

found Freedom in an Unfree World " by Harry Browne.

--- " wally t. " wrote:

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone

> want to call

> > my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

> > If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear

> what sort of

> > methods you now apply to staying sober.

>

> My last drunk was a real horrorshow. The withdrawal

> (I quit abruptly,

> thinking I didn't need to go to detox) touched off a

> psychotic episode, and

> I had to be hospitalized. Whenever I think of

> drinking, I let my mind flash

> back to how I felt in the emergency room, and then

> to all the things that

> had happened to get me there, and I ask myself

> whether I want to go through

> that again. That's my method.

>

> Actually, I had come out of the hospital with a real

> determination to never

> drink again. I started out going to AA meetings, and

> whenever there was a

> discussion of the first step and how you are

> supposed to be powerless over

> the first drink, I would think to myself " Well, this

> has got to be bullshit.

> I can't AFFORD to be powerless over the first

> drink! " So when it was my turn

> to talk, I would just mention some of the stuff that

> had happened when I

> drank and beat around the bush about the

> " powerlessness. " In fact a couple

> of times in meetings I said that I thought I could

> probably drink again and

> control my drinking BUT the risk was too great if I

> happened to be wrong...

> This raised a few eyebrows, of course.

>

> In spite of the fact that I had " my own way " of

> working the program, which

> included not being powerless, I was not feeling so

> great after 3 months of

> daily meetings, and this is when I stumbled onto

> Stanton Peele's book " The

> Diseasing of America " [actually while I was

> Christmas shopping, in '93, by

> some coincidence ] and reading that started me

> seriously thinking that

> maybe I didn't need AA after all. Peele's ideas

> seemed ultra-radical at

> first, since I had been through several 28-day

> brainwashing programs in the

> 80s and had gone to at least 1000 AA meetings over

> the years. My copy of

> that book still has notes penciled in the margin

> about how Peele " doesn't

> really understand the Program and what it's like to

> be a Real Alcoholic " ,

> etc., but about halfway through I started to wake up

> a bit. At that point I

> started to read A LOT of stuff about alcoholism and

> alternative recovery. I

> read all of Peele's books, all the RR and SOS stuff,

> the MM book, some

> things about RET and cognitive therapy (having been

> pointed that way by RR).

> Also several books by Szasz, some histories

> of the Temperance

> movement, some philosophy, some history of religion,

> some " free-thought "

> literature, etc. This may seems excessive [:-)] but

> at the time I had the

> idea that understanding just what the hell was going

> on was a matter of life

> and death, and there was NOBODY I could trust to

> give me the answers, so I

> had to read everything that seemed relevant and

> figure it all out myself.

> And I did.

>

> What I got out of it all was a strong conviction

> that I really could do it

> my way -- that I was on the right track. I used a

> little of the cognitive

> therapy, but mainly I concluded that there were no

> " secrets " to staying

> sober -- you just don't drink.

>

> -- wally

>

>

> > Don't forget, you are

> > still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and

> I am feeling

> > alittle insecure. After all, I have been

> " trained " what to do

> > when I am frazzled. Now what?

> > Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery

> fog " and I feel

> > empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Sue

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files

> and, access them from

> anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here

> for a chance to win a

> digital camera.

> http://click./1/337/1/_/4324/_/945848790

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> --

>

/ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sue, you asked about dealing with the fears that AA instills. If you

read the anticult sites you'll see a lot of cults put a " curse " on

those who leave. Basically, they know that anyone who leaves will

inevitably encounter routine difficulties in life, but they want you to

think that these little bumps in the road (or big bumps in the road)

are the result of leaving AA. They're not. The same things would happen

if you stayed. But they're hoping your mind will blow it all out of

proportion and make you think God is sending you a message to go back

to AA and humble yourself again.

I've heard there are some primative tribes where a sorcerer can put a

" curse " on someone and the victim will just stop eating and die,

because they're so convinced that death is inevitable. It's just the

power of suggestion.

Also, it won't be the end of the world if you go back for a few

meetings. You can get the benefit of the social contact and support but

at least now you know that the " program " part is mostly bullshit. The

seed has been planted, as they say.

[Guest guest]

But I've already done that ;-)

No, seriously thanks, I will at least skim it the next time I'm at the

library. Mainly, after the 'research' I did when I was breaking away from

AA, I have read little or nothing about addiction, psychology, or self-help.

Most of it is very boring, especially once it isn't new. Besides, everything

you really need to know about life can be found in the writings of

lin.

-- wally

Re: 12stfr seems really odd

>One other message: you sound like a reader like me.

>Another great book I have found is called, " How I

>found Freedom in an Unfree World " by Harry Browne.

>

>--- " wally t. " wrote:

>>

[Guest guest]

Jim, what you said!

Sue, I left AA after 15 years of 3+ meetings a week. I even had the

idea that if I did the Steps Exactly right, I would be perfect and get

my halo....! " We are Not saints " ...but hell, you drink and either

you're automatically dead or crazy. What a bunch of contradictory

crap!

I have been away for three years and the scales are falling from my

eyes little by little. A lot of the brainwashing still plays on me,

but I have a very good partner who helps to be the Voice of Reason when

the cult mentality messes with me.

AA uses guilt and shame to keep its members " coming back " . It puts a

fear of leaving the fold into you. How many times have you been at a

table and someone " confesses " how long its has been since they've been

to a meeting...or that they....gulp...had a slip, God help them? I

used to think to myself that this was a version of Catholic Confession

or, for the agnostic or atheist-True Confessions!

I have a daughter who recently turned 21. She got kicked out of

treatment 3 years ago and continued with an occasional AA meeting. She

admitted that AA was more of a social thing for her all along. She

called me from NYC (she is a flight attendant and was on a layover)

saying she had had a beer the other night. She was just full of guilt

over it. I just told her it's up to her how she think about it, but

strongly advised that she NOT go to AA and talk about it-that she

should make her decision to drink-or not-HER Decision.

A few years ago, I would not have reacted in this way. The Judgemental

finger-pointing AA " Invasion of the Body Snatchers " accusation is gone.

Replaced with a gentler, less-than-perfect, and definitely humane-and

human thoughts and feelings. I am less strident in how I think about

people in general-and in turn, about myself. I am happier and more

gentle on myself-not beating myself with old " defects of character "

anymore...and noticing that everybody has them-that's what makes us

different from one another-oh duh...!

I get new awarenesses all the time. Hang in there, Sue. You don't

have to give it all up at once. Be gentle with yourself; listen and

watch at the meetings-watch the body language-I find that INTRIGUING,

to say the least! People lie at AA tables, too...and they are

dysfunctional as all get-out! See if ANYONE is NOT wearing a mask. I

got a real wake-up call when I was betrayed by several members. Watch

them. I can tell you nobody is as they " seem " .

Jim-did you get any mail yet?

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10655

> Sue, you asked about dealing with the fears that AA instills. If you

> read the anticult sites you'll see a lot of cults put a " curse " on

> those who leave. Basically, they know that anyone who leaves will

> inevitably encounter routine difficulties in life, but they want you

to

> think that these little bumps in the road (or big bumps in the road)

> are the result of leaving AA. They're not. The same things would

happen

> if you stayed. But they're hoping your mind will blow it all out of

> proportion and make you think God is sending you a message to go back

> to AA and humble yourself again.

>

> I've heard there are some primative tribes where a sorcerer can put a

> " curse " on someone and the victim will just stop eating and die,

> because they're so convinced that death is inevitable. It's just the

> power of suggestion.

>

> Also, it won't be the end of the world if you go back for a few

> meetings. You can get the benefit of the social contact and support

but

> at least now you know that the " program " part is mostly bullshit. The

> seed has been planted, as they say.

>

[Guest guest]

Besides, everything you really need to know about life can be found in

the writings of

> lin.

>

> -- wally

And Beavis & Butt-head!

-- Jim

[Guest guest]

" wendy rose " wrote:

> Jim-did you get any mail yet?

>

Yup, and thanx for the latex gloves! Kinky!

Reminds me of an excellent bit of humor:

Three offensive linemen for Texas Agricultural and Mechanical

University were in the locker room injecting themselves with steroids

and sharing the same needle. A coach walked in, took one look and

gasped in horror. " Boys, boys! Stop that immediately, " he shouted.

" Don't you know you can get all sorts of horrible diseases that way! "

" It's OK, Coach, " one of the Aggie lads explained, " we're all wearing

condoms. "

Now some nitpicky anal-retentive participants in this forum might say

this is off-topic, but I'm sure that if you ponder this parable long

enough you will soon see that it is metaphorically appropriate to the

subject matter at hand. If I must explain in detail, I will.

Oh, I forgot to say at the beginning that if you'd already heard the

joke you could skip to the next posting. Sorry.

-- Jim of Nazareth

( " An ex-junky prophet is not without honor except in his own electronic

forum. " )

[Guest guest]

I forgot about the gloves-oh god, you have me cracking up here!

I wrapped the bottles here in my office and the person who had this

desk before me left them. Thinking they would keep the rattling down,

I stuck the bottles in them-and now you have a pair!!

I'm glad you got them okay-MERRY CHRISTMAS-what better gift than

Antidepressants??? How perfect is that???!!

" jim hankins " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=10660

> " wendy rose " wrote:

> > Jim-did you get any mail yet?

> >

> Yup, and thanx for the latex gloves! Kinky!

>

> Reminds me of an excellent bit of humor:

>

> Three offensive linemen for Texas Agricultural and Mechanical

> University were in the locker room injecting themselves with steroids

> and sharing the same needle. A coach walked in, took one look and

> gasped in horror. " Boys, boys! Stop that immediately, " he shouted.

> " Don't you know you can get all sorts of horrible diseases that way! "

>

> " It's OK, Coach, " one of the Aggie lads explained, " we're all wearing

> condoms. "

>

> Now some nitpicky anal-retentive participants in this forum might say

> this is off-topic, but I'm sure that if you ponder this parable long

> enough you will soon see that it is metaphorically appropriate to the

> subject matter at hand. If I must explain in detail, I will.

>

> Oh, I forgot to say at the beginning that if you'd already heard the

> joke you could skip to the next posting. Sorry.

>

> -- Jim of Nazareth

> ( " An ex-junky prophet is not without honor except in his own

electronic

> forum. " )

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

glad to meet you. The one thing that amazed me after I quit drinking and

left AA is how many non-drinkers their are out there. AA gives you this

belief that you must hang out with only AA people, because everyone else is

" slippery. "

Not true. The truth, I think, is most people do not focus on alcohol as the

main part of their existence. Sure, they may have a few beers or a glass of

wine but its no big deal. And most could care less if you abstained around

them.

What does make them mad is if you say, " I can't drink because I'm an

alcoholic with a disease. " That's a turn off. If you make too big deal out

of your not drinking it ticks people off. Nobody wants to hear about you

defeating your raging alcoholism. And another thing that makes people mad

is saying, " I can't be around you because you drink. " Wont' make many

friends that way. The easiest way is just to not bring it up. Tons of

people dont' drink, most because its just not healthy for you.

Only in the world of AA do social drinkers become mythical gods who

are to be avoided. Most people who can drink two beers and leave it aren't

perfect. They aren't " normal. " They may have other addictions.

Well, I better stop before I start to upset myself. AA screwed with my

head. And I'm still a a tad bit angry about it.

Matt

On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:49:01 -0800 (PST), 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Hi..name is Mike, new member of group..at the right

> time, I made decision not to drink again.. then just

> didn't...slugged through life, went through different

> situations and didn't drink..found out lots of non

> drinkers in general population to hang out

> with...resisted pear pressure, etc...gained

> confidence...it sounds like you are about ready to

> leave the fold...I had to leave AA first b4 I could

> sober up...like you used mental pictures of me

> throwing up, etc. and concentrated on how good I felt

> not putting alcohol in body...let me know how you are

> doing

>

> --- " wally t. " wrote:

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Hi All,

> > >

> > > I am slowly sliding out of meetings....anyone

> > want to call

> > > my sponsor and tell her bye-bye?

> > > If ya'll feel like writing, I would like to hear

> > what sort of

> > > methods you now apply to staying sober.

> >

> > My last drunk was a real horrorshow. The withdrawal

> > (I quit abruptly,

> > thinking I didn't need to go to detox) touched off a

> > psychotic episode, and

> > I had to be hospitalized. Whenever I think of

> > drinking, I let my mind flash

> > back to how I felt in the emergency room, and then

> > to all the things that

> > had happened to get me there, and I ask myself

> > whether I want to go through

> > that again. That's my method.

> >

> > Actually, I had come out of the hospital with a real

> > determination to never

> > drink again. I started out going to AA meetings, and

> > whenever there was a

> > discussion of the first step and how you are

> > supposed to be powerless over

> > the first drink, I would think to myself " Well, this

> > has got to be bullshit.

> > I can't AFFORD to be powerless over the first

> > drink! " So when it was my turn

> > to talk, I would just mention some of the stuff that

> > had happened when I

> > drank and beat around the bush about the

> > " powerlessness. " In fact a couple

> > of times in meetings I said that I thought I could

> > probably drink again and

> > control my drinking BUT the risk was too great if I

> > happened to be wrong...

> > This raised a few eyebrows, of course.

> >

> > In spite of the fact that I had " my own way " of

> > working the program, which

> > included not being powerless, I was not feeling so

> > great after 3 months of

> > daily meetings, and this is when I stumbled onto

> > Stanton Peele's book " The

> > Diseasing of America " [actually while I was

> > Christmas shopping, in '93, by

> > some coincidence ] and reading that started me

> > seriously thinking that

> > maybe I didn't need AA after all. Peele's ideas

> > seemed ultra-radical at

> > first, since I had been through several 28-day

> > brainwashing programs in the

> > 80s and had gone to at least 1000 AA meetings over

> > the years. My copy of

> > that book still has notes penciled in the margin

> > about how Peele " doesn't

> > really understand the Program and what it's like to

> > be a Real Alcoholic " ,

> > etc., but about halfway through I started to wake up

> > a bit. At that point I

> > started to read A LOT of stuff about alcoholism and

> > alternative recovery. I

> > read all of Peele's books, all the RR and SOS stuff,

> > the MM book, some

> > things about RET and cognitive therapy (having been

> > pointed that way by RR).

> > Also several books by Szasz, some histories

> > of the Temperance

> > movement, some philosophy, some history of religion,

> > some " free-thought "

> > literature, etc. This may seems excessive [:-)] but

> > at the time I had the

> > idea that understanding just what the hell was going

> > on was a matter of life

> > and death, and there was NOBODY I could trust to

> > give me the answers, so I

> > had to read everything that seemed relevant and

> > figure it all out myself.

> > And I did.

> >

> > What I got out of it all was a strong conviction

> > that I really could do it

> > my way -- that I was on the right track. I used a

> > little of the cognitive

> > therapy, but mainly I concluded that there were no

> > " secrets " to staying

> > sober -- you just don't drink.

> >

> > -- wally

> >

> >

> > > Don't forget, you are

> > > still dealing with my brainwashed head here, and

> > I am feeling

> > > alittle insecure. After all, I have been

> > " trained " what to do

> > > when I am frazzled. Now what?

> > > Occassionally, my mind " pops out " of " recovery

> > fog " and I feel

> > > empowered and " normal. " Not often enough though.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Sue

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files

> > and, access them from

> > anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here

> > for a chance to win a

> > digital camera.

> > http://click./1/337/1/_/4324/_/945848790

> >

> > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > --

> >

> /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> >

> >

> >

>

> __________________________________________________

>