RE: Licensed Paramedics

May 24, 2002

Junior, I've been giving your question a lot of thought and though I may not

have the same answer that you implied by your comment to eductors, I'll put

my 2-cents into the fray.

The answer is yes. Persons with master's and bachelors can " manage " a

program with PhDs. Each person had a different role, but having the more

advanced degree does not by default put one in charge over the other.

Case in point, in our office we have the following staffing levels:

Program Director: BS/BA (though our director recently left, the person

temporarily filling her shoes is also a Bachelors).

Program Staff: 5 Bachelors, 2 Masters and a non-practicing JD.

Our contract evaluation team consists of nine universities involving nearly

a dozen PhD's and a herd of Master and Doctoral level graduate students.

While they conduct the actual collection and analyzing of data, the staff in

our office over see and manage the contracts dictating what they are doing,

when they are doing it, how they are reporting that data and then deciding

what and if we need to change/not change based on the results.

This is not uncommon. Many times you have a program that is managed by a

person with a bachelors or masters that knows the program and how to manage.

But, for evaluation you want someone with strong research and evaluation

skills which are your doctorates, be it PhD, EdD, DrPH, ScD, etc.

The key is to realize that different people bring different knowledge,

skills and abilities to the table and to accept and embrace those

differences in a manner that allows each person to work to their fullest in

meeting the overall goals of the program. Part of the puzzle is being able

to recognize when you need specific skills, being able to recognize when you

don't or can't meet that need and being willing to bring someone on board

who can do that function.

Barry Sharp, MSHP, EMT, CHES

Office of Tobacco Prevention & Control

Texas Department of Health

Re: Licensed Paramedics

QUESTION -

Could a scientist with Masters Business Degree and Bachelor Degree {in

associated science] manage a program with PhD scientists?

In business/science etiqutte, is this possible... trust me, those who have

been educators SHOULD know the answer to the above.

Junior , EMT-Paramedic

on County EMS Medic 33-Blue

May 24, 2002

WilCoEMSMdic

This horse should be at the glue factory. But,,, it is important to

understand that education is an essential part of our world, and what

education does show is that an individual can start and finish something

that is not the easiest in the world to do. All disciplines should reward

those employees that further their job skills by acquiring education.

Education goes further than just A & P, and job related courses. Education

enhances ones ability to organize thoughts in an intelligent manner and

write these thoughts in an understandable format. Education has and always

will be a bar that is set to show the ability to complete. It doesn't

matter if your degree is in engineering, biology or basket weaving.....

Don't kid yourself, it takes discipline and fortitude to complete. Some of

us worked very hard to go to school, work and support our families. So

please help our profession to grow,,,,, Growth is sometimes hard,,, but its

reality.

Tommy Short, LP

Re: Licensed Paramedics

Lets keep in mind... school and degree DO NOT always = intelligence... look

at all the morons floating around with Bachelors.

May 24, 2002

Look at all the ones without.

henry

WilCoEMSMdic3355@... wrote:

> Lets keep in mind... school and degree DO NOT always =

> intelligence... look

> at all the morons floating around with Bachelors.

>

May 24, 2002

While sweat and experience may promote knowledge, what is there to correct

what is wrong? If not, the errors and bad practices tend to reproduce

themselves. This makes the image of EMS as a quasi-health profession a

self-fulfilling prophecy. The same holds true for physician training, I

interviewed in the late 80s for emergency medicine at Tulane/Charity

Hospital. There were plenty of patients--too many in fact-- and not enough

supervising physicians. Instead, I decided to train elsewhere. A basic

level of education is needed in the ever developing world of EMS (I have a

patient report in my file that contains three words without a single vowel

and several other I do not recognize). One must be able to effectively read

and communicate. The EMS person of the near future must be able to read,

analyze, critique, and apply knowledge from medical journals and similar

sources. In addition, EMS wants parity with other allied health professions

that typically require an Associates degree (respiratory therapy,

radiological technicians) or with nurses who have an Associates or Bachelors

degree at the very least. Nobody expects EMS folks to spend 12 years in

college as I did (that was my choice). But a basic knowledge of

communications skills, critical thought, history, politics, psychology,

another language, and so on can only help. That is the motive behind the

licensed paramedic in this state--slowly drive the educational and skill

level up to that of the other allied health professions. Diploma nurses and

Associate nurses are generally barred from advanced practice (CRNA, NP,

etc,) until they have attained a BSN degree. The LP is just another step in

the evolution of EMS--join in or simply wait until you can retire.

BEB

Re: Licensed Paramedics

> Neil,

>

> What is the standard? Should the standard be determined by skill level? or

by

> education?

>

> I would put my investment in SWEAT & EXPERIENCE over education ANY DAY.

>

> Junior , EMT-Paramedic

> on County EMS Medic 33-Blue

>

May 24, 2002

Maybe someone should contact the SPCA

Tommy Short/TXEHSF wrote:

> WilCoEMSMdic

>

> This horse should be at the glue factory. But,,, it is important to

> understand that education is an essential part of our world, and what

> education does show is that an individual can start and finish something

> that is not the easiest in the world to do. All disciplines should reward

> those employees that further their job skills by acquiring education.

> Education goes further than just A & P, and job related courses. Education

> enhances ones ability to organize thoughts in an intelligent manner and

> write these thoughts in an understandable format. Education has and always

> will be a bar that is set to show the ability to complete. It doesn't

> matter if your degree is in engineering, biology or basket weaving.....

> Don't kid yourself, it takes discipline and fortitude to complete. Some of

> us worked very hard to go to school, work and support our families. So

> please help our profession to grow,,,,, Growth is sometimes hard,,, but its

> reality.

>

> Tommy Short, LP

>

> Re: Licensed Paramedics

>

> Lets keep in mind... school and degree DO NOT always = intelligence... look

> at all the morons floating around with Bachelors.

>

May 24, 2002

Mr. ,

I am not trying to inflame you or anyone else, but I have a thought.

I am a CEMT-P also, much like yourself, with what I will call some pretty

heavy field experience in my own right, both fire and EMS, (of which I am

equally proud), as we are a dual system here in Corpus. I actually have

enough college hours to have junior year status, but, for reasons of my own,

I have not obtained a degree and am not in the LP category.

I was in the field for eleven years prior to transferring to the training

division, and let me tell you that the 5th Ward, and some of the other areas

the good Doctor Bledsoe alluded to in his reply to you, remind me of some

areas right here in Corpus Christi. I personally had just a twinge of offense

at the " those who can't do, teach " connotation that you made a few posts ago,

although, that is beside the point of this post, and I will just have to bear

that little cross for now. I assure you, I can still " do " as well as teach. I

teach for my own department, as well as being an instructor with several EMS

education organizations, including the local community college, where I have

instructed EMS at the advanced level for several years. I am instructing many

of those (soon-to-be) LP candidates, and I hope that my experiences in the

field, through my teaching, can be passed to these people, hopefully making

up for the experience that they lack, and making them better in the field

right away.

I have been told I have a little ego myself, and do not deny that up to a

point. I am not patronizing you at all when I say I wish I could spare the

time to accept your invitation to come play on your field, because you sound

like someone that I could get along with very well, and do some good field

care with. I, too, work, and have worked, side by side with LP's and have no

gripe with them, or them with me, (as far as I know of, anyway).

My thought I mentioned earlier is this, (strictly an observation). The folks

you are directing your posts to, where you are saying experience will be

preferred over education, would probably take you more seriously if you

weren't incorrectly spelling so many words in your posts. Words in your post

to the Doctor like " privilegde " and " RESPOSIBLE " (your upper case letters,

not mine), and " seperate " in a previous post are examples, (but not nearly a

complete list.) I am not an " educated " LP, but I am an instructor, and I

wouldn't let my students in the degree program get away with these

indiscretions, so there is no way I am personally going to cut you any slack

while you are saying education doesn't matter, in a post that has words

spelled incorrectly in the text! I hope sincerely that you do better on your

ambulance paperwork, or one of those personal injury lawyers out there may

one day have the court wondering if your patient care is a sloppy as your

spelling.

Not at all trying to inflame, patronize, or generally be a jerk, just

observing.

L. Grote, EMT-P (yes, Certified, not LP)

Corpus Christi Fire Department EMS (Training Division)

May 24, 2002

" I would put my investment in SWEAT & EXPERIENCE over education ANY DAY. "

While not trying to trivialize the value of hard work, sweat equity, etc.

Let's apply this statement to some other hard working fields...

Agriculture...Fields were originally plowed, planted, maintained and

harvested by hand. Lots of sweat and experience to grow food for a family.

Then through trial and error, animals were added to the mix allowing farmers

to plow, plant, maintain and harverst larger fields. Still lots of sweat and

experience to grow food for a community. Then the field progressed to using

mechanized tractors to plow, plant, maintain and harvest even larger fields.

Farmers still sweated, but were able to grow food for a planet. Today,

computers are being added to the mix to make farming more efficient with

greater results so that with even fewer farmers enough food is being grown

to feed the planet.

Did each individual farmer have to progress the entire chain from hand

planting to using machines and computers or were the newer farmers able to

study and learn the lessons from those who went before them and make

improvements through the application of new technology? Today's farmers are

more educated than ever before of not only the process of growing plants

(which has remained relatively unchanged...seeds, sunlight, water and luck),

but how to be a better, more productive and efficient farmer.

Same with ditch digging. Hands gave way to curved stones and wood which gave

way to shovels which gave way to front end loaders. The invention and use of

this technology was not created through devine intervention and spread by

osmosis. Someone had to become educated to create the equipment and then

educate others on it's advantages and how to use it.

Again, sweat and experience is great. But you also need the education to

identify the gaps (or to even be able to identify which questions to ask to

even determine if you have gaps) and to find the answers to move ahead. You

can't solve today's problems with yesterday's solutions and today's

solutions may not work for the problems of tomorrow.

May 24, 2002