vitamin K

[Guest guest]

Barbara Ann,

The Scripps Nutritionist was one of the many people I saw during

pre-transplant evaluation. She called the doctor while I was there and

asked him some specific questions about the kind of " diet " I should follow

and which vitamins I should take. It was in that context that she told me

I needed Vitamin K. I then tried to buy it at a pharmacy and learned I

needed a prescription. Since no one had given me one (the Nutritionist, of

course, couldn't) I just didn't worry about it again, even though my

prothrombin time has been a little high a few times. Mine never went

higher than 14+, whatever that means. 12+ is normal, I believe. Minutes?

A couple of months ago it was up to the highest it can go in normal ranges

but it didn't worry my doctor. Actually, I don't think anything worries my

LV Hepatologist except total liver failure. My new Internist gets a little

more involved, thankfully.

I also discussed dieting at length with the Nutritionist. I was told many

things that may sound surprising to some of the people on the list. I told

her that I drink about 3 Coca Colas daily but no coffee and tea rarely. I

asked if I should drink diet Coke and she said " No " . In fact, she said

that I shouldn't diet at all, meaning abstain from certain foods except for

raw fish and shellfish. She also was the one who told me that I need

around 3/4 of a lb. of protein daily. I assumed she meant I could get

protein from beans, etc., but she said that I need the protein I can only

get from meat, but I could get part of my required amount by combining

vegetable proteins with animal proteins. I think that a lot of this is

based on the fact that a person with end stage liver disease can look

healthy and even overweight and still be in danger of malnutrition because

food isn't being properly absorbed or processed. I don't know what she'd

say now that I'm in remission. I have a copy of her report to the

transplant doctor and she discusses her concern that I won't get enough

animal protein because I don't care that much for meat.

One of these days I'll dig out the records, but it would just be confusing

since all of us seem to have gotten something different from our doctors or

whichever nutritionists we've seen. It's another case of where treatment

seems to depend on the specific problems of the individual patient, I imagine.

My cholesterol runs above " normal " but not really high. It's always around

250 and under. It's gone higher a few times. Compared with people who

have a real cholesterol problem, I guess it's not so bad. It's higher than

my husband's, though, and he takes Lipitor.

Take care,

Geri

[Guest guest]

Geri,

While I was in the hospital, I was on a daily regimen of Vitamin K injections

but since then there has seemed to have beeen no talk of Vitamins. It is an

interesting point and something I will bring up with my GI doctor.

Speaking of doctors, could someone give me the differences between the

gastroenterologists and heptalogists, rhumatologists, etc . . . I have only

been seeing a GI doctor (who I believe is fabulous - if anyone is in the

Cleveland area and in need of a GI doctor email me) but I wonder if I

shouldn't be seeing any other type of doctor.

Thanks and Peace

[Guest guest]

P.S. I know this mostly effects women but there has to be a few other men

out there experiencing this. The only person I see on the list is . Is

there anyone else out there. (thanks for being there!!!)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/14/1999 10:55:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

barbara99ann@... writes:

>

> negative influence, it would help me to get better -

> TOTAL DENIAL to the bitter end. I'm going to Baylor in

> Dec. and I'll get replacement copies of those lab

I think if most of us are honest we are all in the same boat----I know I keep

thinking someone, someday will tell me it has all been a big mistake and

there is nothing wrong with me-----oh well---LIFE!!! I agree about keeping

the bad karma away too!!! Joan in PA

[Guest guest]

hello patrick

my boyfriend also has AIH and is on the transplant list at cleveland clinic

he doesnt get on too often but if you email me i will forward to him to

answer

cheryl

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/14/1999 4:33:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

spangs@... writes:

<< I think that a lot of this is

based on the fact that a person with end stage liver disease can look

healthy and even overweight and still be in danger of malnutrition because

food isn't being properly absorbed or processed. >>

Geri,

Wow, that was an interesting statement, especially due to the fact that I had

told my GI that the 45 lbs I had gained in the last 3 years DID NOT have to

do with my diet, because I eat like a bird most of the time. I also told him

that I actually felt malnourished, despite being fat! I hope that doesn't

mean I have end-stage liver disease! LOL But then again, who the h*** knows!

(AIH)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

( is one of my favorite names, by the way). It could be that they

stabilized your blood condition with the vit. K injections you had in the

hospital, but I'd certainly ask the doctor about it, just to be safe. My

local GI doctor has never given me a word of advice about diet, vitamins or

anything. If I hadn't seen a nutritionist at the beginning I wouldn't have

had a clue and I still feel hit and miss about it all.

It sounds like you have a good doctor already. The only reason I've seen

specialists is because my Hepatologist has not addressed any medical issues

that are not directly related to my liver disease. When I've complained

about joint pain, developed giant hives and had other problems he's simply

told me to see another doctor. It was driving me crazy because I believed

(correctly) that another specialist should be informed about AIH and I knew

they aren't all knowledgeable.

A Gastroenterologist specializes in general conditions of the GI system and

that usually covers everything, including the liver. However, liver

diseases are so complex and have the potential to be life threatening and

thus a sub-specialty of Hepatology also exists. A Hepatologist is a

Gastroenterologist who has done further studies in the treatment of liver

diseases. A Rheumatologist is a specialist who treats connective tissue

diseases and they include autoimmune crossover diseases like Lupus and

Rheumatoid Arthritis. An Endocrinologist treats conditions of the

endocrine system and systemic diseases like Diabetes, Thyroiditis, etc.

The Endocrinologist I saw happened to also specialize in treatment of

Osteoporosis.

All of the above is an over-simplification of course, and doesn't cover the

range of conditions any of these doctors treat. Because autoimmune

diseases are so complex and poorly understood, in my opinion it's best to

see a specialist who understands a specific disease, i.e., for joint pain

that could be developing Lupus or Rheumatoid Arthritis, I'd want to see a

Rheumatologist. If I developed Diabetes, I'd want to see an Endocrinologist.

What we all need and hopefully most of us have is one single doctor who

will monitor our entire medical situation and who is educated and informed

enough (and self-confident enough) to know when it's time to refer to

another specialist. I've known and admired specialists in the past who

have had no problem telling me that they know their own specialty but they

wouldn't do credit to their patients if they tried to treat conditions that

weren't included in that specialty. Thus, a Hepatologist is not the ideal

doctor for treatment of Diabetes, for example anymore than a Gynecologist

should try to treat a man's prostate problems.

Sorry for sounding like I'm trying to play school teacher. These are all

just conclusions that I've reached through my own observations and negative

experiences of myself and people I love.

Take care,

Geri

[Guest guest]

Hi again, .

There are other men who show up occasionally and stay for awhile. I hope

that the " feminine " atmosphere doesn't push them away because there's

considerable to gain through this list.

I've read an estimate of 30% male victims of AIH, but there are other

autoimmune liver diseases besides AIH and some of them affect men more than

women. Also, I've noticed that if you have one of these conditions, your

chances of developing another seems to increase. Somewhere I have some

actual medical statistics about that but I'd have to do some keyword

searching to find it.

Something else that men should consider is the possibility that Hep C will

develop into AIH. This would mean that not only do they have the

debilitating effects of Hep C, but their bodies will begin to reject their

livers, as in AIH. Unfortunately, ignorance about all forms of liver

disease continues to exist, even within the medical community.

I wonder if men are slower to see a doctor when they begin to get sick?

Women tend to be more in tune with their bodies and they also don't have

the hang-up of feeling that it isn't " macho " to admit to feeling sick.

Since the effects of AIH are so insidious and the disease can develop

silently, often AIH is advanced before it's detected.

I'd like to see more men log on - men who are taking Prednisone are also at

risk for osteoporosis but there isn't enough being published about this risk.

Anyhow, don't feel like an outsider. Your input is valuable and it adds to

our knowledge of how these autoimmune diseases work. I hope that everyone

also has something to offer you!

Take care,

Geri

[Guest guest]

Since this liver stuff started with me I have gained 30 lbs. I

contribute it to the fact that I keep food in my tummy to help dilute

the acid. I have an amazing amount of acid. The other reason is I never

feel like I get enough. Im full but still need something. perhaps thats

a malobsorbtion problem..

Jody

--- La7de@... wrote:

> From: La7de@...

>

> In a message dated 9/14/1999 4:33:34 AM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> spangs@... writes:

>

> << I think that a lot of this is

> based on the fact that a person with end stage

> liver disease can look

> healthy and even overweight and still be in danger

> of malnutrition because

> food isn't being properly absorbed or processed.

> >>

> Geri,

>

> Wow, that was an interesting statement, especially

> due to the fact that I had

> told my GI that the 45 lbs I had gained in the last

> 3 years DID NOT have to

> do with my diet, because I eat like a bird most of

> the time. I also told him

> that I actually felt malnourished, despite being

> fat! I hope that doesn't

> mean I have end-stage liver disease! LOL But then

> again, who the h*** knows!

>

> (AIH)

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Yes it is seconds )

--- barbara ann <barbara99ann@...> wrote:

> From: barbara ann <barbara99ann@...>

>

> Hi Geri,

> The only lab I have left pre transplant was taken

> during evaluation 11/28/94, 3 days prior to being

> admitted to the hospital. At that time my PTT was

> 25.7 on a scale of 9.7 to 12 sec (seconds? Perhaps

> Jody can fill us in). I know it was increasing

> despite the VitK pills. That was the reason I was

> admitted to the hospital after fainting, the docs

> said

> I could bleed to death internally if I injured

> myself.

> PTT is also one of criteria used to determine the

> need for a transplant. Once I was in the hospital I

> remember tearing up my daily lab reports into tiny

> little pieces. As I saw the lab values

> deteriorating,

> I became convinced the reports were surrounding me

> with a 'bad karma'. And, if I could destroy any

> negative influence, it would help me to get better -

> TOTAL DENIAL to the bitter end. I'm going to Baylor

> in

> Dec. and I'll get replacement copies of those lab

> reports.

> I'll write more later on, I don't want this to turn

> into a book.

> Have a good one,

> Barbara Ann

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Jody,

Are you on prednisone? I know that makes us gain weight and always hungry.

I'm not, but my GI said that... and I've read it too.

(AIH)

[Guest guest]

>

> I'd like to see more men log on - men who are taking Prednisone

> are also at

> risk for osteoporosis but there isn't enough being published

> about this risk.

I just had a bone density scan done yesterday because of my long term

prednisone use. The docs at Mayo thought I should have it done, but both my

Primary care doc and the place where I had the scan done seemed surprised. I

was surprised at how many things can put a man at risk, including coffee!!

Certainly, anyone on prednisone needs to have regular scans to ensure that

they are not developing osteoporosis. A broken hip or back is no fun!!

Don

AIH Minneapolis

[Guest guest]

Don,

We are glad to have you men with us here as I'm sure you help us as much as

we help you! I'm spreading the word to other AIH men about the group too, so

hang in there!

(AIH)

[Guest guest]

Im not on prednisone at the moment..Im having my first liver biopsy

tomorrow. Im hoping it will at least tell me whats happening in my

liver. This is the first time, in all the years Ive dealt with

autoimmune disease that I have the sweats this bad. I have always had

some neck sweating at night..just the neck..isnt that odd.. anyway not

its all body. I had a hysterectomy when I was 28 and have been

menopausal for 10 years..interesting that that is the time I first was

showing signs of autoimmune disease..This sweating is much different

than the hot flashes type of reaction..

Thanks for all the imput you guys

Jody

--- La7de@... wrote:

> From: La7de@...

>

> Jody,

>

> Are you on prednisone? I know that makes us gain

> weight and always hungry.

> I'm not, but my GI said that... and I've read it

> too.

>

> (AIH)

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Carol...

Feel free to get in there any time you want. That's what I like about this

list so much and that is the completely free exchange of ideas and

information. I don't participate too much in here as I get the digest and

it's not as easy to reply to any singular post than it is when you get the

posts individually. However, when I was getting all the posts singularly, it

was really hard to keep up with all of the parcels of mail so, here I am.

About the vitamin K: It's obvious how much different each of our bodies

reacts to the different medications that we take so it's really hard to make

any direct comparisons. Personally I feel that it is extremely important

when changing medications or raising or lowering the dosages that we do this

under our doctors close supervision. For me it is absolutely imperative that

I watch closely my PT (pro-thrombin time-a blood test that measures how fast

the blood coagulates) as it means the difference between having pulmonary

emboli or not. I've had several episodes of pulmonary emboli before they

surgically installed a titanium umbrella filter in my vena cava(main trunk

vein to lower extremities) to keep the clots from going through my heart. So

it is a very delicate balance of blood viscosity...(for lack of a more

scientific term) that I need to take coumadin.

Coumadin works the opposite of vitamin K in that it slows down the time it

takes for the blood to coagulate. Yes, I bruise easily because of this and

so I have to watch the other end of the spectrum also...the other end being

if the blood is too " thin " I could easily bleed to death from an injury that

would normally clot up and heal. It is for this reason that I am perhaps

somewhat overly cautious about adding any supplements to my daily cocktail of

drugs and particularly vitamin K. For the same reason I don't take any

asprin which also acts to " thin " the blood.

If you have a clotting problem, either way..(clot too fast or too slow) I

would strongly suggest that you monitor closely any additions to your drug

regimen that might affect this in any way. That might mean blood tests (PT)

several times a week while you make the transition but to me that beats the

heck out of a 10 day stint in the hospital with a heparin pump attached to my

IV and a blood test every 4 hours around the clock!!!

Steve

[Guest guest]

HiLiz

My doctor wouldn't even know about MSM! I should try I guess. My

Mother-in-law is no it, so I have asked her to send me some, to try out.

You are right though, I should ask first to see if its contraindicated.

Thanks for this

Vitamin K

> >

> > Hi there

> >

> > Do any of you know foods that are high in Vitamin K? My youngest

daughter

> > doesn't assimilate her synthetic Vit. K well, so we thought to try

natural

> > sources, like leafy greens juiced ,etc.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Send blank message to candidiasis-unsubscribeonelist if you want

to

> UNSUBSCRIBE !

> >

[Guest guest]

, I can't answer your question but it made

me think about MSM. This product helps break

down vitamins so it allows the body to better

absorb these nutrients into our system. Could

you ask your doctor if taking this supplement

could help with this absorption for your daughter?

LIZ

> [Original Message]

> From: Nick Grant <nwgrant@...>

> <candidiasis >

> Date: 3/11/01 4:20:54 PM

> Subject: Vitamin K

>

> Hi there

>

> Do any of you know foods that are high in Vitamin K? My youngest daughter

> doesn't assimilate her synthetic Vit. K well, so we thought to try natural

> sources, like leafy greens juiced ,etc.

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

>

> Send blank message to candidiasis-unsubscribeonelist if you want to

UNSUBSCRIBE !

>

[Guest guest]

Well that information is VERY interesting! I just got online after a couple

of days with my period. Feeling a bit better this month because I began

taking Barley Grass. I thought this stuff worked because of the high

potassium

content in the grass but it might be from the vitamin K content!!!

I began bleeding very heavy after quitting the birth control pill 27 years

ago and no doctors have been able to help this. I can't belive this grass

helped give me control. That page has lots of great information, Please

read if you didn't get the chance.

Liz D. (a very thankful person)

> [Original Message]

> From: noaholiviaian <phaselow@...>

> < >

> Date: 6/5/2005 7:09:20 AM

> Subject: [ ] Re: Yellow Stool.....I have figured it out !!!

>

> For those of you like me (who know little about Vitamin K), here is

> a link that seems to explain its role simply.

>

> http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html

>

> I'm going to try a small amount and see if OUR shin bruises go away.

>

> Pam

[Guest guest]

Marisha, I would be interested on what if find, if anything.

I have taken probiotics to death without any benefit. The

only thing I found was that mercury in the body kills them off.

Liz D.

> [Original Message]

> From: princessjuscuz <princess@...>

> < >

> Date: 6/5/2005 8:09:02 PM

> Subject: [ ] Vitamin K

>

> The source for Vitamin K is from Life Extension " SUPER K with K2 " ,

> Softgels. I have been using a Whole Foods brand but do intend to

> switch.

> Pam thanks for the post reguarding the K. I really hope everyone goes

> to the link and reads it –so much of it pertains to our kids... I can

> think of several for my son...High dose Vit A, Given Tylenol (in the

> past), Antibiotics (in the past), Candida, Alkaline foods, and he does

> not eat vegetables.

> Our stools still look normal- there is a bit of a smell that I think

> could be yeast die-off. Could the vitamin K be our yeast cure? I am

> wondering if the " lacking of it " could be " a lot of the cause " no

> matter how much probiotics we put in our kids. I will do some research

> & see what I can find out. I am still in amazement how something so

> simple solved something so big!

>

> Thanks,

> Marisha

> Mom to Lake 4.5

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I wanted to comment on the bruises with the 22 month old on his legs.

Sounds like thats from falls and bumps. Which would result in

bruising. Doesnt sound like anything to be overly concerned about.

My daughter is 5 1/2, and also on the EFA/EPA, and Vit E.

I asked the same question about the bruises. Because she had some

whoppers on her shins. However, she did have a tumble down the stairs

while wearing riding boots. So.. after I calmed down and thought

about it, I realized she was " just fine " And she is. Thats " normal "

kid stuff. Unless the bruising is all over the body and

unexplainable.

As far as the dark circles.. Are they getting enough sleep? Do they

maybe need a little more? Are they eating lots of dark green veggies.

(thinking possibly iron deficient, ONLY because I was when I was

little, and that was a symptom I had. I was always pail w/ dark

circles. Actually I was dx'd as being Iron deficient anemia)

I;'m not trying to scare you- but just throwing that out there as a

possibility. And actually a simple fix.

I would go ahead and give the vit E. And not be overly concerned with

the vit K.

Dawn in NJ

>

> Hi !

>

> I have tried to stop asking questions and just keep

> reading your emails to others so I don't take up your

> time, but my son couldn't get in to see the biomed.

> dr. until the end of Feb.

>

> Both of my sons have been on ProEFA and EPA for a 1

> 1/2 years and were on the vit. E but I wasn't sure I

> was seeing a diff. I stopped after a month because

> someone said they had dark circles under their eyes

> and I noticed they did. They have been off for at

> least 1 1/2 mths. and still have dark circles under

> their eyes and the 22 month old has several bruises on

> his legs. If it is safe to give vit. K even if it

> ends up not being from a deficiency, how much do I

> give and is there a specific kind I should get?

>

> Ages: 22 months

> 3 1/2 years

>

> Thanks you so much for helping me. I haven't seen a

> previous email where you address amount, so if you

> already have, I'm sorry to ask again.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers..

Try it now.

>

[Guest guest]

,

I wanted to comment on the bruises with the 22 month old on his legs.

Sounds like thats from falls and bumps. Which would result in

bruising. Doesnt sound like anything to be overly concerned about.

My daughter is 5 1/2, and also on the EFA/EPA, and Vit E.

I asked the same question about the bruises. Because she had some

whoppers on her shins. However, she did have a tumble down the stairs

while wearing riding boots. So.. after I calmed down and thought

about it, I realized she was " just fine " And she is. Thats " normal "

kid stuff. Unless the bruising is all over the body and

unexplainable.

As far as the dark circles.. Are they getting enough sleep? Do they

maybe need a little more? Are they eating lots of dark green veggies.

(thinking possibly iron deficient, ONLY because I was when I was

little, and that was a symptom I had. I was always pail w/ dark

circles. Actually I was dx'd as being Iron deficient anemia)

I;'m not trying to scare you- but just throwing that out there as a

possibility. And actually a simple fix.

I would go ahead and give the vit E. And not be overly concerned with

the vit K.

Dawn in NJ

>

> Hi !

>

> I have tried to stop asking questions and just keep

> reading your emails to others so I don't take up your

> time, but my son couldn't get in to see the biomed.

> dr. until the end of Feb.

>

> Both of my sons have been on ProEFA and EPA for a 1

> 1/2 years and were on the vit. E but I wasn't sure I

> was seeing a diff. I stopped after a month because

> someone said they had dark circles under their eyes

> and I noticed they did. They have been off for at

> least 1 1/2 mths. and still have dark circles under

> their eyes and the 22 month old has several bruises on

> his legs. If it is safe to give vit. K even if it

> ends up not being from a deficiency, how much do I

> give and is there a specific kind I should get?

>

> Ages: 22 months

> 3 1/2 years

>

> Thanks you so much for helping me. I haven't seen a

> previous email where you address amount, so if you

> already have, I'm sorry to ask again.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers..

Try it now.

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi !

> >

> > I have tried to stop asking questions and just keep

> > reading your emails to others so I don't take up your

> > time, but my son couldn't get in to see the biomed.

> > dr. until the end of Feb.

> >

> > Both of my sons have been on ProEFA and EPA for a 1

> > 1/2 years and were on the vit. E but I wasn't sure I

> > was seeing a diff. I stopped after a month because

> > someone said they had dark circles under their eyes

> > and I noticed they did. They have been off for at

> > least 1 1/2 mths. and still have dark circles under

> > their eyes and the 22 month old has several bruises on

> > his legs. If it is safe to give vit. K even if it

> > ends up not being from a deficiency, how much do I

> > give and is there a specific kind I should get?

> >

> > Ages: 22 months

> > 3 1/2 years

> >

> > Thanks you so much for helping me. I haven't seen a

> > previous email where you address amount, so if you

> > already have, I'm sorry to ask again.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_

> ______________

> > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at

www.Answers..

> Try it now.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi !

> >

> > I have tried to stop asking questions and just keep

> > reading your emails to others so I don't take up your

> > time, but my son couldn't get in to see the biomed.

> > dr. until the end of Feb.

> >

> > Both of my sons have been on ProEFA and EPA for a 1

> > 1/2 years and were on the vit. E but I wasn't sure I

> > was seeing a diff. I stopped after a month because

> > someone said they had dark circles under their eyes

> > and I noticed they did. They have been off for at

> > least 1 1/2 mths. and still have dark circles under

> > their eyes and the 22 month old has several bruises on

> > his legs. If it is safe to give vit. K even if it

> > ends up not being from a deficiency, how much do I

> > give and is there a specific kind I should get?

> >

> > Ages: 22 months

> > 3 1/2 years

> >

> > Thanks you so much for helping me. I haven't seen a

> > previous email where you address amount, so if you

> > already have, I'm sorry to ask again.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_

> ______________

> > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at

www.Answers..

> Try it now.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

They get lots of sleep, green beans are the only green

veg. they'll eat, but they do eat eggs almost daily

with a fruit for vit. C.

I will look into the allergies in Feb., but is it okay

to give iron supplements in addition to what is in

their multivitamin until our Feb. appt. since I know a

deficiency can cause learning disabilities? If it is

okay, how much would be appropriate?

Thank you so much for responding and for the

additional advice. You've been a great help as have

many other postings I have read on this.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.

Ask your question on www.Answers.

[Guest guest]

They get lots of sleep, green beans are the only green

veg. they'll eat, but they do eat eggs almost daily

with a fruit for vit. C.

I will look into the allergies in Feb., but is it okay

to give iron supplements in addition to what is in

their multivitamin until our Feb. appt. since I know a

deficiency can cause learning disabilities? If it is

okay, how much would be appropriate?

Thank you so much for responding and for the

additional advice. You've been a great help as have

many other postings I have read on this.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.

Ask your question on www.Answers.