Re: My Say - Strong Women aren't we great!

[Guest guest]

Hi Vicki

Thanks for that Posts I've only been banded for 3 weeks but already I can

identify with a lot of the things you have said even though the band is

going okay for me.

As to Missy Belle being a strong woman and that sometimes making men

uncomfortable these are the thoughts that I had when I read the Post about

the red card.

I say this with all due respect to Matt who I believe is genuine in

believing he is doing the right thing.

However I respectfully suggest that if the moderators were woman perhaps

this matter may have been handled differently.

Certainly as another " strong woman " had there been female input in this

decision I would have felt better about the objectivity of the whole

business.

Sorry guys but its a function of being an old woman. It has been my

experience that in some cases men find " strong woman " more threatening than

woman do.

And it has certainly been my experience that both sexes respond to threat

differently.

I would be a lot more comfortable if there was female input when deciding on

appropriate behavior for woman in any forum.

For me the issue of banning Missy is wider than the sum of her Posts.

What has happened for me when viewing this list is an in the back of the

mind awareness of 'male approval' hovering over this list. I know that

isn't the intention of the moderators. But it is there for me.

What do you think women is it there for you or am I particularly sensitive

about men discipline women they are bad?

Regards

Leonie

[Guest guest]

I think a female moderator on the list would be a good thing. I was not

privy to any of the private emails so I cannot comment on that at all.

Personally I use the delete button all the time.

At 10:23 AM 19/12/00 +1300, you wrote:

>Hi Vicki

>

>Thanks for that Posts I've only been banded for 3 weeks but already I can

>identify with a lot of the things you have said even though the band is

>going okay for me.

>

>As to Missy Belle being a strong woman and that sometimes making men

>uncomfortable these are the thoughts that I had when I read the Post about

>the red card.

>

>I say this with all due respect to Matt who I believe is genuine in

>believing he is doing the right thing.

>

>However I respectfully suggest that if the moderators were woman perhaps

>this matter may have been handled differently.

>

>Certainly as another " strong woman " had there been female input in this

>decision I would have felt better about the objectivity of the whole

>business.

>

>Sorry guys but its a function of being an old woman. It has been my

>experience that in some cases men find " strong woman " more threatening than

>woman do.

>

>And it has certainly been my experience that both sexes respond to threat

>differently.

>

>I would be a lot more comfortable if there was female input when deciding on

>appropriate behavior for woman in any forum.

>

>For me the issue of banning Missy is wider than the sum of her Posts.

>

>What has happened for me when viewing this list is an in the back of the

>mind awareness of 'male approval' hovering over this list. I know that

>isn't the intention of the moderators. But it is there for me.

>

>What do you think women is it there for you or am I particularly sensitive

>about men discipline women they are bad?

>

>Regards

>Leonie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have to disagree there , you and Randall moderate the list - there

needs to be the female viewpoint as well. It would only be fair.

At 01:23 AM 19/12/00 -0000, you wrote:

>

>> I think a female moderator on the list would be a good thing. I

>was not

>> privy to any of the private emails so I cannot comment on that at

>all.

>> Personally I use the delete button all the time.

>

>There is no moderation on the list and there is no need for a female

>moderator. I do have female advisors available for any decisions

>though.

>

>Missy Belle was warned that her posts where going to be moderated if

>she continued, she did and her posts had to be approved which they

>all were. The moderation was purely there to stop her from bringing

>up events that were finalised.

>

>I made it very clear to her that if she tried to circumnavigate this

>that she would be removed. Within 12 hours she signed up under

>another name and brought up things that I had said a long time ago.

>

>A combination of this and her attacks on people behind the scenes and

>her history to date resulted in her removal from the list. The

>removal may or may not be permanent but this is entirely up to her.

>

>She thrives on creating trouble and needs to seek professional help,

>this is why she has had such poor results with the band and has such

>a serious attitude problem.

>

>She was the direct cause of over 6 people leaving the group and many

>more stopping posting, these are all people who need the help and

>support of the group and whilst Missy Belle is in need of support she

>won't accept it and she has no right to scare other people in need of

>support away.

>

>Until she changes her ways she is not welcome back here. I have

>better things to do then look after matters like this and I don't

>like having to take the action that I have but it is in my opinion

>and that of many others the best thing for the group.

>

>Some people may disagree and to be perfectly honest they can all they

>like but I have invested a lot of time and energy into this group and

>the website and I'm not about to see someone like Missy Belle destroy

>my work because of her problems.

>

>The only thing I'm sorry for is taking so long to remove her, it's a

>shame that so many people had to leave before I took that action.

>

>Regards

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I think a female moderator on the list would be a good thing. I

was not

> privy to any of the private emails so I cannot comment on that at

all.

> Personally I use the delete button all the time.

There is no moderation on the list and there is no need for a female

moderator. I do have female advisors available for any decisions

though.

Missy Belle was warned that her posts where going to be moderated if

she continued, she did and her posts had to be approved which they

all were. The moderation was purely there to stop her from bringing

up events that were finalised.

I made it very clear to her that if she tried to circumnavigate this

that she would be removed. Within 12 hours she signed up under

another name and brought up things that I had said a long time ago.

A combination of this and her attacks on people behind the scenes and

her history to date resulted in her removal from the list. The

removal may or may not be permanent but this is entirely up to her.

She thrives on creating trouble and needs to seek professional help,

this is why she has had such poor results with the band and has such

a serious attitude problem.

She was the direct cause of over 6 people leaving the group and many

more stopping posting, these are all people who need the help and

support of the group and whilst Missy Belle is in need of support she

won't accept it and she has no right to scare other people in need of

support away.

Until she changes her ways she is not welcome back here. I have

better things to do then look after matters like this and I don't

like having to take the action that I have but it is in my opinion

and that of many others the best thing for the group.

Some people may disagree and to be perfectly honest they can all they

like but I have invested a lot of time and energy into this group and

the website and I'm not about to see someone like Missy Belle destroy

my work because of her problems.

The only thing I'm sorry for is taking so long to remove her, it's a

shame that so many people had to leave before I took that action.

Regards

[Guest guest]

> I have to disagree there , you and Randall moderate the

list - there

> needs to be the female viewpoint as well. It would only be fair.

What moderation?

One unruly little girl was removed after frequent warnings. There is

no moderation here and I have female advisors as well behind the

scenes that assist in some of these decisions (other people from the

list).

There does not need to be a female moderator as the list is not

moderated. Everyone can post whatever they want but unfortunately

some people take it too far and then we had to intervene, I'm just

sorry that I didn't take the action quicker before we lost all these

people who genuinely wanted help.

Removing Missy Belle was not a decision taken lightly and it was one

that I had discussed with many others over a period of time. Even

after the last incident that I considered to be worthy of removal I

bit my tounge but Missy Belle continued to push the issue instead of

letting it drop.

Until she can show that she has changed and is willing to accept the

advice of people who have been where she is, instead of offering her

misguided ill-informed opinions on issues and makes the approriate

apologies she will not be welcome back here. She caused enough damage

to the group and I'm not prepared to let it slip any further.

Regards

[Guest guest]

I guess the word I was looking for was list owners. Well, that sounds fair

enough, I do not know what went on in the wings, so I will keep my mouth

shut on that one as you guys have had female input into this then I am happy.

At 01:35 AM 19/12/00 -0000, you wrote:

>

>> I have to disagree there , you and Randall moderate the

>list - there

>> needs to be the female viewpoint as well. It would only be fair.

>

>What moderation?

>

>One unruly little girl was removed after frequent warnings. There is

>no moderation here and I have female advisors as well behind the

>scenes that assist in some of these decisions (other people from the

>list).

>

>There does not need to be a female moderator as the list is not

>moderated. Everyone can post whatever they want but unfortunately

>some people take it too far and then we had to intervene, I'm just

>sorry that I didn't take the action quicker before we lost all these

>people who genuinely wanted help.

>

>Removing Missy Belle was not a decision taken lightly and it was one

>that I had discussed with many others over a period of time. Even

>after the last incident that I considered to be worthy of removal I

>bit my tounge but Missy Belle continued to push the issue instead of

>letting it drop.

>

>Until she can show that she has changed and is willing to accept the

>advice of people who have been where she is, instead of offering her

>misguided ill-informed opinions on issues and makes the approriate

>apologies she will not be welcome back here. She caused enough damage

>to the group and I'm not prepared to let it slip any further.

>

>Regards

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think we ( the group ) need to see some of those private emails( the proof

is always in the pudding )The group is split 50/50, who's right who's wrong

???????

A couple of years ago I was on the original Bandster list ( that's where I

met Ally ) there was one lady there ( cant remember her name ) but she gave

me such a hard time with every post I made and then she started emailing me

privately and she got very nasty, I couldn't email her back as she put a

barr on my emails so I forwarded them to the bandsters list and when

everyone saw what type of posts she was sending me,,,,,,when they realized

that I wasn't the bad one.....she was asked to leave the list.

Some time people need proof !!!!!!! to make the right decision.

Mc wrote:

>

> > I have to disagree there , you and Randall moderate the

> list - there

> > needs to be the female viewpoint as well. It would only be fair.

>

> What moderation?

>

> One unruly little girl was removed after frequent warnings. There is

> no moderation here and I have female advisors as well behind the

> scenes that assist in some of these decisions (other people from the

> list).

>

> There does not need to be a female moderator as the list is not

> moderated. Everyone can post whatever they want but unfortunately

> some people take it too far and then we had to intervene, I'm just

> sorry that I didn't take the action quicker before we lost all these

> people who genuinely wanted help.

>

> Removing Missy Belle was not a decision taken lightly and it was one

> that I had discussed with many others over a period of time. Even

> after the last incident that I considered to be worthy of removal I

> bit my tounge but Missy Belle continued to push the issue instead of

> letting it drop.

>

> Until she can show that she has changed and is willing to accept the

> advice of people who have been where she is, instead of offering her

> misguided ill-informed opinions on issues and makes the approriate

> apologies she will not be welcome back here. She caused enough damage

> to the group and I'm not prepared to let it slip any further.

>

> Regards

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I think we ( the group ) need to see some of those private emails(

the proof

> is always in the pudding )The group is split 50/50, who's right

who's wrong

> ???????

>

> A couple of years ago I was on the original Bandster list ( that's

where I

> met Ally ) there was one lady there ( cant remember her name ) but

she gave

> me such a hard time with every post I made and then she started

emailing me

> privately and she got very nasty, I couldn't email her back as she

put a

> barr on my emails so I forwarded them to the bandsters list and when

> everyone saw what type of posts she was sending me,,,,,,when they

realized

> that I wasn't the bad one.....she was asked to leave the list.

>

> Some time people need proof !!!!!!! to make the right decision.

I'm not prepared to provide proof, I have nothing that needs to be

proven here and I see no need to provide any form of proof.

Everyone knows what Missy Belle is like and there is no need for

anyone to make a decision on this matter, she has been removed from

the group because of her actions.

Regards

[Guest guest]

>I don't agree with you, as I am hesitant to take some ones word about some

>one I do not know ,,I for one do not know what Missy Bell is like ( whether

>it's good or bad )

>It's all a bit like He Man versus Xena ( god that cracks me up,,,sorry just

>amusing myself and couldn't resist saying that )

Then perhaps you shouldn't take sides at all and keep out of it?

I've been trying to get this crap to stop for weeks and yet some

people keep dragging it on.

Regards

--

____________________________________________________________

Mc http://www.matthewmcdonald.com/

MobileWorld Phone Information http://www.mobileworld.org/

Brisbane, Australia_________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I don't agree with you, as I am hesitant to take some ones word about some

one I do not know ,,I for one do not know what Missy Bell is like ( whether

it's good or bad )

It's all a bit like He Man versus Xena ( god that cracks me up,,,sorry just

amusing myself and couldn't resist saying that )

Mc wrote:

>

> > I think we ( the group ) need to see some of those private emails(

> the proof

> > is always in the pudding )The group is split 50/50, who's right

> who's wrong

> > ???????

> >

> > A couple of years ago I was on the original Bandster list ( that's

> where I

> > met Ally ) there was one lady there ( cant remember her name ) but

> she gave

> > me such a hard time with every post I made and then she started

> emailing me

> > privately and she got very nasty, I couldn't email her back as she

> put a

> > barr on my emails so I forwarded them to the bandsters list and when

> > everyone saw what type of posts she was sending me,,,,,,when they

> realized

> > that I wasn't the bad one.....she was asked to leave the list.

> >

> > Some time people need proof !!!!!!! to make the right decision.

>

> I'm not prepared to provide proof, I have nothing that needs to be

> proven here and I see no need to provide any form of proof.

>

> Everyone knows what Missy Belle is like and there is no need for

> anyone to make a decision on this matter, she has been removed from

> the group because of her actions.

>

> Regards

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I certainly hope you emailed Missy in on this post. It is *very*

unfair to say things about her when she has no chance of rebuttal,

albeit privately. This seemed to be more scathing than anything

you said about her whilst she was on the list.

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

Vicki

Whilst licking their paws on 19 Dec 2000, at 1:23, Mc purred the

following

>

> > I think a female moderator on the list would be a good thing. I

> was not

> > privy to any of the private emails so I cannot comment on that at

> all.

> > Personally I use the delete button all the time.

>

> There is no moderation on the list and there is no need for a female

> moderator. I do have female advisors available for any decisions

> though.

>

> Missy Belle was warned that her posts where going to be moderated if

> she continued, she did and her posts had to be approved which they all

> were. The moderation was purely there to stop her from bringing up

> events that were finalised.

>

> I made it very clear to her that if she tried to circumnavigate this

> that she would be removed. Within 12 hours she signed up under another

> name and brought up things that I had said a long time ago.

>

> A combination of this and her attacks on people behind the scenes and

> her history to date resulted in her removal from the list. The removal

> may or may not be permanent but this is entirely up to her.

>

> She thrives on creating trouble and needs to seek professional help,

> this is why she has had such poor results with the band and has such a

> serious attitude problem.

>

> She was the direct cause of over 6 people leaving the group and many

> more stopping posting, these are all people who need the help and

> support of the group and whilst Missy Belle is in need of support she

> won't accept it and she has no right to scare other people in need of

> support away.

>

> Until she changes her ways she is not welcome back here. I have

> better things to do then look after matters like this and I don't like

> having to take the action that I have but it is in my opinion and that

> of many others the best thing for the group.

>

> Some people may disagree and to be perfectly honest they can all they

> like but I have invested a lot of time and energy into this group and

> the website and I'm not about to see someone like Missy Belle destroy

> my work because of her problems.

>

> The only thing I'm sorry for is taking so long to remove her, it's a

> shame that so many people had to leave before I took that action.

>

> Regards

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor

> -------------------------~-~> Big News - eGroups is becoming Yahoo!

> Groups Click here for more details:

> http://click./1/10801/1/_/707298/_/977188994/

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>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>I certainly hope you emailed Missy in on this post. It is *very*

>unfair to say things about her when she has no chance of rebuttal,

>albeit privately. This seemed to be more scathing than anything

>you said about her whilst she was on the list.

>

>Sorry, but that's how I feel.

That's all very well fine and to be honest I don't care what you

think. The fact is that I've had enough of people sticking their nose

in without knowing any of the facts.

I've been trying to put this whole issue to rest for weeks yet it's

the same people who keep dragging it up.

I have no intention of conversing with Missy Belle on any of this, she

had more then enough warnings over her actions.

Regards

--

____________________________________________________________

Mc http://www.matthewmcdonald.com/

MobileWorld Phone Information http://www.mobileworld.org/

Brisbane, Australia_________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Whilst licking their paws on 19 Dec 2000, at 20:20, Mc purred the

following

>

>

> >

> >

> >I certainly hope you emailed Missy in on this post. It is *very*

> >unfair to say things about her when she has no chance of rebuttal,

> >albeit privately. This seemed to be more scathing than anything you

> >said about her whilst she was on the list.

> >

> >Sorry, but that's how I feel.

>

> That's all very well fine and to be honest I don't care what you

> think. The fact is that I've had enough of people sticking their nose

> in without knowing any of the facts.

So you have an e-list that you say you care about and have put a lot of

time and energy into, but you don't care about what the listmembers

think?

As for the facts, I *was* here when things blew up with Missy.

Regards

Vicki Cleaver

vickicleaver@...

[Guest guest]

Mathew

you wrote

>One unruly little girl was removed after frequent warnings. >

Classic stuff

If you got ran this one past the female 'advisors' you write off I'd be

astounded.

You need to go back to them and have the inappropriateness of this remark

and the attitudes behind it explained to you Mathew!

you also wrote

>There is no moderation here >

>There does not need to be a female moderator as the list is not

>moderated. Everyone can post whatever they want but unfortunately

>some people take it too far and then we had to intervene.

" Intervening " is moderation removing someone of the list because of

adjudicated bad behavior is moderation.

Doing so over a matter that does appear to personally involve yourself, ( I

suggest that you take your own advice here Mathew and read back through the

history) leaves you open for criticism and the fact that you have had it in

a abundance attests to the health of the list you operate.

Up until now you have appeared to be a reasonable well grounded sort of guy

but the following comments could lead you open to >One unruly little girl >

substitute girl for boy and you'd have it.

Except that to make such a comment about you Mathew would be unfair silly

and demeaning because like Missy Belle you are an adult with strong views

and fully entitled to be respected as such.

those comments were

>That's all very well fine and to be honest I don't care what you

think.>

I think you do Mathew or else why invest so much time in this list.

> The fact is that I've had enough of people sticking their nose

in without knowing any of the facts.>

People do that when they find something disturbs them Mathew and as this

list is an open forum ( and a very good one) isn't it healthy that we do.

>I've been trying to put this whole issue to rest for weeks yet it's

the same people who keep dragging it up.>

Perhaps if you started not just listening and responding - but also hearing

what people have to say and dealing with it - then maybe it will have some

resolution.

Both female and male moderators ( not yourself in this incident because you

are now personally involved ) looking at the issue and all of the evidence

would probably go a long way towards some closure of this incident and also

keep your list safe for " strong women " to want to continue to Post to.

How hard is that!

This Post is not a criticism of you personally Mathew.

This Post is a criticism of autocratic, patronizing and sexist behavior that

not only fails to recognize that perhaps your way is not the only way but

seems to be absolutely ignorant and uncaring of the issues that this

incident has raised for others.

Regards

Leonie

You wrote

>There is no moderation here and I have female advisors as well behind the

>scenes that assist in some of these decisions (other people from the

>list).

[Guest guest]

Mathew

I've only just opened this post it obviously came before the one the last

one I answered. Sometimes my daughter mixes things up so this is out of

order - and more of the same but important enough in itself to not go

unremarked.

You wrote

>I made it very clear to her ( Missy Belle) that if she tried to

circumnavigate this >

>that she would be removed. Within 12 hours she signed up under >

>another name and brought up things that I had said a long time ago.>

She wanted to be heard Mathew, as would you in her position. What is wrong

with her bringing up things you said long ago, I for the most part enjoy

your posts.

you wrote

<The removal may or may not be permanent but this is entirely up to her. >

Good for you but what is the process for this to happen? Is there one?

you wrote

>She thrives on creating trouble and needs to seek professional help, >

>this is why she has had such poor results with the band and has such >

>a serious attitude problem.>

Do you really think it is okay for you to vilify and judge a person who you

have banned from answering you. From you position of power as the person

who removed her.

It seems to me that power whilst having its privileges i.e.. the power to

remove others from the list it also has its responsibilities I.e.. to at

least practice what you preach.

If you want people to treat each other and yourself with respect and care

you have to afford them the same - no exceptions.

Missy Belle has proved herself able to apologies I hope your good at it

too!

You also wrote

>I don't like having to take the action that I have but it is in my opinion

>

>and that of many others the best thing for the group.<

Why don't you let the group have some say in whats good for it. Some female

input into moderation would be a start.

I haven't heard " many others " speak up in support of the red card thing

I have heard quite a few speak against it and " many others " ask that we move

on.

The issues are wider than Missy Belle. Do you not realize that now.

Are you really able to decide whats good for everybody a b****y big burden

for anyone. Why would you want too!

you wrote

>I'm not about to see someone like Missy Belle destroy

>my work because of her problems.

Missy belle can't destroy your " work " only you can do that. Posts like this

don't do you any credit.

I have found one response to this post of yours with which I heartily

concur. Missy Belles original posts created quite a bit of comment.

I find it strange that this one of the same genre has illicited only two

responses.

you wrote

>Some people may disagree and to be perfectly honest they can all they

>like but I have invested a lot of time and energy into this group and

>the website and I'm not about to see someone like Missy Belle destroy

>my work because of her problems.

Surely this list is a dead duck without the respect and input of those you

dismiss so cavarily Mathew.

Or is this list only for good boys and girls - if that's the case there

surely isn't a place for me, and perhaps you should remove yourself at

the same time Mathew you also don't appear to find that mould either.

Get over yourself man admit that you are powerless to decide for everybody

else and get the help very obviously need and also deserve.

you also wrote

>The only thing I'm sorry for is taking so long to remove her, it's a >

>shame that so many people had to leave before I took that action.>

If that really is the case Mathew - and that's really all you care about

then I guess that I'm probably for the chop to.

Oh well SaY La vee.(can't spell)

Interesting that I'm the second person in the last week who thinks they may

be removed from this list for their opinions.

Surely that says something to you Mathew!

If you choose to answer this Post then please spare me your " I don't care

what you think " thingamy as its beneath both of us.

I couldn't decide if I should post this to the group or not it is not my

intention to go against what you all want.

However there are very real issues around woman and speaking out and food.

Issues around not stuffing your anger and opinions down with food.

They are certainly there for me and I believe for Missy Belle and a lot of

other fat strong woman. We don't always get it right but we should be be

heard and have input into judgements made about our behaviour and those of

other woman as should men and ethnic minorities and gays etc. etc.

" I don't care what you think " no longer cuts it.

My words are for myself I speak for no other women out there. If I have

upset anyone and they would like to address what I have said off list then

they are welcome.

lberi@...

Regards

Leonie

This post is of the same ilk and yet

[Guest guest]

lets send in the politcal correct police , and a good whipping with

a wet shoelace for you (LOL) ( but I am worried you may enjoy it)

In the mean time LETS MOVE ON............................

Re: Re: My Say - Strong Women aren't we great!

Mathew

you wrote

>One unruly little girl was removed after frequent warnings. >

Classic stuff

If you got ran this one past the female 'advisors' you write off I'd be

astounded.

You need to go back to them and have the inappropriateness of this remark

and the attitudes behind it explained to you Mathew!

you also wrote

>There is no moderation here >

>There does not need to be a female moderator as the list is not

>moderated. Everyone can post whatever they want but unfortunately

>some people take it too far and then we had to intervene.

" Intervening " is moderation removing someone of the list because of

adjudicated bad behavior is moderation.

Doing so over a matter that does appear to personally involve yourself, ( I

suggest that you take your own advice here Mathew and read back through the

history) leaves you open for criticism and the fact that you have had it in

a abundance attests to the health of the list you operate.

Up until now you have appeared to be a reasonable well grounded sort of guy

but the following comments could lead you open to >One unruly little girl >

substitute girl for boy and you'd have it.

Except that to make such a comment about you Mathew would be unfair silly

and demeaning because like Missy Belle you are an adult with strong views

and fully entitled to be respected as such.

those comments were

>That's all very well fine and to be honest I don't care what you

think.>

I think you do Mathew or else why invest so much time in this list.

> The fact is that I've had enough of people sticking their nose

in without knowing any of the facts.>

People do that when they find something disturbs them Mathew and as this

list is an open forum ( and a very good one) isn't it healthy that we do.

>I've been trying to put this whole issue to rest for weeks yet it's

the same people who keep dragging it up.>

Perhaps if you started not just listening and responding - but also hearing

what people have to say and dealing with it - then maybe it will have some

resolution.

Both female and male moderators ( not yourself in this incident because you

are now personally involved ) looking at the issue and all of the evidence

would probably go a long way towards some closure of this incident and also

keep your list safe for " strong women " to want to continue to Post to.

How hard is that!

This Post is not a criticism of you personally Mathew.

This Post is a criticism of autocratic, patronizing and sexist behavior that

not only fails to recognize that perhaps your way is not the only way but

seems to be absolutely ignorant and uncaring of the issues that this

incident has raised for others.

Regards

Leonie

You wrote

>There is no moderation here and I have female advisors as well behind the

>scenes that assist in some of these decisions (other people from the

>list).

[Guest guest]

Leonie Beri wrote:

>

>

> I find it strange that this one of the same genre has illicited only two

> responses.

>

Leonie,

Believe me, i have only not been replying because I have said I am in lurk mode

until the moderators come to some sense. Coming out of lurk mode briefly here,

I will add that there are likely to be alot more people leave this list because

of this than because of MB and her opinions. And then will be

complaining that the only people on the list are those with problems or

newbies. And where did all the successful bandsters go...................????

, for what it's worth, i think you eat far too little and do far too much

exercise for the amount of food you intake. And i don't like that you sprout

your wisdom as the only way it should be done and that anyone who doesn't do it

your way is doing it wrong. I got to goal and have been for some time without

any exercise at all. i am not proud of that fact but it can be done. And I

might add, i look f***ing fantastic! Maybe you guys are just a little sexually

repressed???

Aly

(back into lurk mode)

[Guest guest]

Bruce

Yes I like the whipping with a wet shoelace idea. I could definitely summon

up some energy for that.

But lets deal with the issue first and maybe then we'll ALL BE READY AND

WILLING to move on.

All this avoidance is getting downright tedious.

I second the proposal to let Missy Belle Have her say and then put it to the

vote.

Leonie

[Guest guest]

I would like to chime in here about 'strong women'. There is a difference between being a strong person, male or female, and being obnoxious and overbearing. Part of having strength is to be able to accept yourself, change the parts you don't like and leave others to do the same without telling them they are wrong in who they are, or how they approach life.

I wish to inform those who don't realize the very beginning of this discord began long ago. Missy continually, see archives, told of how she ate junk food, beginning with a cheeseburger week 1 after surgery, threw up and then continued to eat or would take 2 hours over a normal meal because she couldn't throw out food. told her how he had gone to length, such as changing jobs, to make sure the band worked. He, at that stage, didn't tell her to do what he had done but to say you need to work with the band not fight it. This is when the insults started with, not word for word, If he was so great why did he need the band anyway. As I see it this was the beginning of the end. If we cant explain how we have succeeded or failed for that matter without being belittled, then why be here. I think Missy is far from being a strong woman, otherwise s comments would not have brought about such a rampant response, because it wouldn't matter what he thought.

Now GET OVER IT PEOPLE. There has been very little band related discussion lately, can we please get back to the point of the exercise.

Jo

[Guest guest]

Alison,

has never said his way was THE way and others were wrong. His way works for him, mine worked for me. ENOUGH OF THIS GENDER S**T.

Jo

[Guest guest]

>I second the proposal to let Missy Belle Have her say and then put it to the

>vote.

You can second that proposal to the cows come home but Missy Belle

will NOT be coming back to this list after her actions of the last few

days.

Regards

--

____________________________________________________________

Mc http://www.matthewmcdonald.com/

MobileWorld Phone Information http://www.mobileworld.org/

Brisbane, Australia_________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>, for what it's worth, i think you eat far too little and do far too

much

>exercise for the amount of food you intake. And i don't like that you sprout

>your wisdom as the only way it should be done and that anyone who doesn't do it

>your way is doing it wrong. I got to goal and have been for some time without

>any exercise at all. i am not proud of that fact but it can be done. And I

>might add, i look f***ing fantastic! Maybe you guys are just a little sexually

>repressed???

I don't sprout my way as the only way it should be done, but if you

want to get to goal weight and keep it off LONG TERM then you must

include exercise into your diet.

As for my eating habits they have changed as they have throughout the

whole of my time since I have had the band. My health is monitored and

I have no problems.

I can only offer my advice as to how I have done it, if people don't

want to listen then it doesn't worry me.

Regards

--

____________________________________________________________

Mc http://www.matthewmcdonald.com/

MobileWorld Phone Information http://www.mobileworld.org/

Brisbane, Australia_________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Whilst licking their paws on 20 Dec 2000, at 21:40, Jo Hilder purred the

following

> Alison,

>

> has never said his way was THE way and others were wrong.

> His way works for him, mine worked for me. ENOUGH OF THIS GENDER

> S**T.

Dear Jo

I beg to differ. At least once has said to me on the list

that *his* way is the only way that will work. Even when others

say " I got to goal without doing exercise " he tells them that they

won't maintain it!

I agree, if it works for him, that's great. But it *isn't* going to work

for all of us, contradictory to what thinks.

Regards

Vicki Cleaver

vickicleaver@...

[Guest guest]

> Whilst licking their paws on 20 Dec 2000, at 21:40, Jo Hilder

purred the following

>

> > Alison,

> >

> > has never said his way was THE way and others were

wrong.

> > His way works for him, mine worked for me. ENOUGH OF THIS GENDER

> > S**T.

>

> Dear Jo

>

> I beg to differ. At least once has said to me on the list

> that *his* way is the only way that will work. Even when others

> say " I got to goal without doing exercise " he tells them that they

> won't maintain it!

I've never said that. I have said that you need to include exercise

in your day to day activites and often the extra movement of not

being fat does this but to truly not rely on the band you must

included structured exercise. It's all part of being healthy, you

can't just lose the weight you need to add exercise if you really

want to benefit.

> I agree, if it works for him, that's great. But it *isn't* going

to work

> for all of us, contradictory to what thinks.

If you're too lazy to take an interest in your health then of course

it isn't going to work for you. The band isn't some magical device

that will make your weight disapear, it'll only help you if you help

yourself. The more that you put into it the more that you'll lose and

benefit.

Twist my words around all you like though, the people who matter in

here know what I really said and mean.

[Guest guest]

Whilst licking their paws on 21 Dec 2000, at 0:57, Mc purred the

following

> >

> Whilst licking their paws on 20 Dec 2000, at 21:40, Jo Hilder purred

> the following > > > Alison, > > > > has never said his way was

> THE way and others were wrong. > > His way works for him, mine worked

> for me. ENOUGH OF THIS GENDER > > S**T. > > Dear Jo > > I beg to

> differ. At least once has said to me on the list > that *his*

> way is the only way that will work. Even when others > say " I got to

> goal without doing exercise " he tells them that they > won't maintain

> it!

>

> I've never said that. I have said that you need to include exercise in

Yes you did. I'm not of the mind to search the ozband archives to

find it, but someone posted here recently that they got to goal

without exercise and your response was that they wouldn't

maintain it.

> your day to day activites and often the extra movement of not being

> fat does this but to truly not rely on the band you must included

> structured exercise. It's all part of being healthy, you can't just

> lose the weight you need to add exercise if you really want to

> benefit.

This is *your* opinion. And the opinion of a lot of other people I am

sure. But there *are* people, like it or not, who have lost and

maintained their weight *without* a structured exercise programme.

This list is supposed to be about giving advice, not dictating to

people that your way is the only way.

> > I agree, if it works for him, that's great. But it *isn't* going

> to work

> > for all of us, contradictory to what thinks.

>

> If you're too lazy to take an interest in your health then of course

> it isn't going to work for you. The band isn't some magical device

> that will make your weight disapear, it'll only help you if you help

> yourself. The more that you put into it the more that you'll lose and

> benefit.

I am *far* from lazy. I happen to have two very badly damaged

knees as the result of a car accident. Some days I have trouble

walking to the mailbox, let alone doing hours in a gym! But it has

nothing to do with laziness. It's obvious you have had little to do

with those in the community who have a disability. If I was to

come have come onto this list prior to banding and heard you

saying this, I would never have had it done - you say that I can't

lose the weight without exercise!

*EVERYONE* is different. What you do works for you. What

someone else does works for them. Give advice, sure. Tell people

of your success and how you did it. But don't presume that *your*

way is the *only* way.

> Twist my words around all you like though, the people who matter in

> here know what I really said and mean.

I don't twist your words. In fact I leave letters in tact when I reply

so that people can see that I *haven't* in fact twisted anything.

As for those who " matter " - just how is this determined? Your

friends and buddies? Oh please tell us how we can join that little

elite group. I don't know why you bothered to start a public group

when you don't care about what the members of the group think

and only really want either your own friends or those who agree

with you to be here.

Regards

Vicki Cleaver

vickicleaver@...