Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

[Guest guest]

--- KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...> wrote:

> Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

> necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies show

> certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

>

> Many midwives have the skill set necessary to deliver breeches safely.

I was breech-born in a small hospital, but that was in 1952. It might

possibly explain my left-handedness and aberrant behavior

[Guest guest]

>

> The c-section rate is far too high and totally not indicative of

> medical necessity - like pretty much everything else, it is more

> convenient than the natural path.

>

> -Lana

>

>

Yes, that is true. I agree.

I personally did everything I could to plan for a totally natural birth. I

did not want drugs of any kind. I even did hypnobirthing!

However, my baby was breech and over 8 pounds. No matter what we did, she

would not turn. My doctor felt it was safer to do a c-section. I trusted

him. I'm glad my baby was born healthy and I have no regrets.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Not everyone has access to a midwife. Due to my insurance, I didn't have the

choice. They do not allow midwives at the hospital I gave birth in.

On Jan 26, 2008 2:58 PM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...>

wrote:

>

> Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

> necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies show

> certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Jan 26, 2008 3:13 PM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...>

wrote:

>

> <http://www.naba-breastfeeding.org/images/Just%20one.pdf>There are some

> studies that tracked longer than 6 months. I'll track them

> down once I have more free time and don't have house guests.

>

> > If it were irreversible, then how is it possible that Dr.

> -McBride

> > is reversing autism, food allergies and other disorders by giving

> children

> > high doses of therapeutic-grade probiotics and changing their diets?

>

> Once bad bacteria is established, it's extremely difficult to drive them

> out. You can improve the ratio and suppress them and do a lot of other

> manipulating, but driving them out entirely isn't always possible,

> depending

> on the host, the particular bacteria, and the environment.

Hmmm -- what are you basing this assumption on?

I don't think it's so much about " driving out " the bad guys -- but rather

helping the good bacteria to colonize so they can do their job of destorying

the pathogens.

> You can see

> improvement and reversal of a whole host of conditions and problems, but

> that in no way means that you have banished all of the bad bacteria. It

> just means that you have them under better control, but they're still

> there.

> So reversing autism or any other condition in no way means that all of the

> bad bacteria are gone.

That's true -- we always have a balance of good and bad bacteria. But one of

the jobs of the good bacteria is to keep the pathogens in check. According

to Dr. McBride and Donna Gates and many others, it isn't until we have a

*colonization* of the friendly flora that we experience a real sea change in

our health.

I've personally fought bad gut bacteria my entire life- born 7 weeks

> premature via C-section, never nursed, given repeated rounds of

> antibiotics

> my entire life, including staying on them for an entire year at one point

> in

> my teens. I have been able to get some of my problems to disappear or

> just

> about disappear, but that in no way means they're all gone, just better

> under control. And, interestingly enough, I never had any digestive

> symptoms of any problems until I became seriously ill in one day. My

> health

> went from 'ok' to 'severely sick' in literally one meal.

That is interesting. I have read that symptoms are just the tip of the

iceberg. So you can be sick and not have any symptoms for a while. That

happened to me as well.

I had repeated rounds of antibiotics as kid, too. By the time I reached my

20s I had very bad candida. Of course I didn't know I had candida. The

overgrowth of yeast caused me to start developing food allergies,

respiratory allergies and other auto-immune disorders -- including

full-blown osteoarthritis at age 26.

From what I have learned, when the immune system becomes weakened, you

develop more and more allergies. I also never had any digestive problems per

se. Obviously a yeast overgrowth is a digestive problem but it was not

apparent to me in that I had no digestive symptoms (I was allergic to gluten

but I did not know it).

I am curious -- have you ever tried taking high doses of the therapeutic

grade probiotics for an extended period of time?

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Ann Marie,

Even at the 2% c-section rate good midwives average, that means 2

women in 100 will actually need a c-section. You just happened to be

in that small portion of people who had a medically necessary

c-section and I am in no way saying you made the wrong choice.

However, just because you were lucky enough to have a healthy baby

with as little bacterial problems associated with c-section as

possible does not mean that c-sections are good for the 98% of women

in which they aren't medically necessary - and it does not mean that

vaginal birth is unimportant or insignificant in terms of gut

bacteria. It is and always will be easier for good bacteria to

populate a sterile or mostly sterile environment as compared to

waiting for the good bacteria to destroy pathogens so they have room

to colonize.

-Lana

> However, my baby was breech and over 8 pounds. No matter what we did, she

> would not turn. My doctor felt it was safer to do a c-section. I trusted

> him. I'm glad my baby was born healthy and I have no regrets.

>

>

> Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

> Kerry Ann, what have you done to recover your health?

When I became ill I had been on a TF diet for almost 4 years. Before anyone

asks, yes, I only consumed soaked grains and raw dairy in the three years

leading up to getting sick. We discovered I had celiac and a severe dairy

allergy. I went off of my allergens, went on massive doses of probiotics,

took L-glutamine, fermented foods and drinks, digestive enzymes, clays, HCl,

liver, and a whole host of supplements to help boost my deficiencies until

my digestion recovered to the point I could absorb the nutrients on my own

again.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

On Jan 26, 2008 6:42 PM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

>

> bacteria. It is and always will be easier for good bacteria to

> populate a sterile or mostly sterile environment as compared to

> waiting for the good bacteria to destroy pathogens so they have room

> to colonize.

>

Agreed!

I really disagree with planned c-sections and think all women should deliver

vaginally if they can.

A sterile environment is idea, yes. However, as I mentioned before, this is

not something Dr. -McBride, a doctor in neurology and nutrition, one

of the world's leading experts on this topic, bothered to even mention in

her book.

An oversight? No, I don't think so. She does not spend the whole of the book

writing about what can damage the balance of flora in the gut. Most of the

book discusses how to right the situation and balance the flora. How to help

the body heal itself.

So whether c-sections are bad or good or necessary or not is not really the

issue at hand here. The issue is that the balance of intestinal flora CAN be

corrected via diet and supplementation. Which is really exciting, I think!

And much more encouraging to all those moms out there who perhaps have not

been able to do everything right -- and just want to do everything they can

to help their babies (and themselves) be as healthy as possible.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn,

I'm responding below...

On Jan 26, 2008 12:45 PM, Pendraig Siberians <blaidd2@...> wrote:

> Anne Marie,

>

> My son is almost 5 months old. I had huge problems breastfeeding. I had

> to

> have a C-section because my baby was too big and I wouldn't dilate. The

> doctor said it's because my body knew I wouldn't be able to get him out.

> He

> was 10lbs 1 ounce at birth and has a large head. I have a too-narrow face

> and I was reading on here that it may mean a too narrow pelvis too. =(

> Any

> ideas on how to eat better to make a smaller baby next time will be

> helpful

> too! I wanted to do a natural birth. He's very healthy though.

>

>

You know, you bring up a good point here. More and more women do have

smaller hips these days due to skeleton changes from our modern diet. So,

maybe cesareans are becoming more common partly for that reason.

That is something I hadn't thought of before.

> antibiotics. My incision ruptured and I had to have a wound vacuum and it

> was pretty painful, disgusting and I didn't argue with the doctor about

> the

> antibiotics =(. I stopped giving my son the pumped breast milk when iw as

It is so hard when you are in the hospital, dependent on the care of a

doctor. We all do the best we can in that situation and you should not

blame yourself.

> I was taking Primal Defense but I never seem to get past the tummy upset

> when taking it like I used to. I used to take small doses and work up to

> what I knew worked for me and then I'd be fine but I can't seem to get

> past

> the hurdle.

Can you describe what you mean by tummy upset? Perhaps (I'm guessing?) this

was part of the " die off " they talk about when balancing the flora?

Dr. -McBride says that when " die off " symptoms occur, you should

just slow down and take a smaller dose. Your body will work up to it. Die

off symptoms mean it is working!

> Anyway I am going to try those products you recommend but I'm more worried

> than ever about my baby. He has been doing well on the NT formula however

> we are BOTH getting colds all the time (once a month since the baby was

> born) which I wasn't before I got pregnant. Gut flora again??

Sure sounds like it.

> I am also

> living with my parents while we wait for our new house to close so I'm

> sure

> he's getting exposed to too many germs from people that eat the worst

> American diet ever.

:-)

> Is it too late for me to try and get my milk back? He got colostrums the

> first 3 days because he would suckle but by the end of the 3rd day he

> started to refuse and fuss instead because he was too hungry and I had

> hardly any milk. I had to give him formula at the hospital (yucky stuff

> too

> with soybean oil) because he lost a pound and they weren't going to let us

> leave. Next baby I'll have Doug go home and make formula after we're

> settled in from labor.

I don't know the answer to that question. I did my best to breastfeed but I

also had to start supplementing with formula when my baby was about 3 months

old -- I was using the commercial formula too. I didn't know any better! By

5 or 6 months, I switched her over to the raw milk formula (this is when I

found out about it).

<dawn@...>

> It is so exciting to think it could be fixed with gut flora. I am so

> depressed and sad that I can't breastfeed him. I feel so strongly about

> it

> and I feel like a failure.

>

I understand. I felt the same way! But please do not be hard on yourself

about this.

Honestly I think the raw milk formula is better than breastfeeding with a

lack of good nutrition (and good gut flora). A lot of people don't agree

with me on that. But it is only logical. We all agree that cows raised on

pasture produce healthier milk. So why wouldn't we agree that women eating

well (and with adequate gut flora) would not produce healthier breast

milk???

Is your baby on the raw milk formula now? If not, start there of course. And

then order the BioKult. You can take the BioKult yourself and also give half

the dose that you take to your baby.

Here's where to order it: http://guthealth.info/

One thing you could try is something Sally Fallon has recommended. It is

called Lact-Aid.

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/breastfeed.html

http://www.lact-aid.com/

It's a way to feed the formula and promote lactation at the same time. I

kind of wish I had tried that.

Ah, well. The good news is, the raw milk formula is the closest thing you

can get to breastfeeding and is full of probiotics -- so lots of babies who

for whatever reason cannot be breastfed can do fine with the raw milk

formula and supplemental probiotics.

Also please read Sally's story about her struggle with breastfeeding -- it

helped and encouraged me. Maybe it will help you, too:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/saga.html

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

--- KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...> wrote:

> I went off of my allergens, went on massive doses of probiotics,

> took L-glutamine, fermented foods and drinks, digestive enzymes, clays,

> HCl, liver, and a whole host of supplements to help boost my

> deficiencies until my digestion recovered to the point I could absorb

> the nutrients on my own again.

Kerry Ann,

I'm guessing you must be feeling much better, to handle taking care of

kids, company, and finding time to post. What probiotic did you take

and how much? And, have you minimized sugars in your diet?

The reason I'm asking is that it looks like you have been following a

diet fairly close to what Dr -McBride recommends:

http://cheeseslave.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/how-to-heal-a-leaky-gut/

(thanks to Ann Marie - the cheese slave:)

[Guest guest]

> I'm guessing you must be feeling much better, to handle taking care of

> kids, company, and finding time to post. What probiotic did you take

> and how much? And, have you minimized sugars in your diet?

Yes, I have minimized sugars and empty carbs. I don't currently keep track

of my daily carb intake. My weight is stable and I'm thin so I don't keep a

close eye on it. My taste buds can't handle a lot of sugar, though, so that

limits me.

I did a combination of water kefir, sauerkraut, kvass, ginger ale, LF

carrots, etc.... At the height of my probiotic consumption, I took several

milliliters of Dr. Ron's liquid probiotics, 2 S. Boulardii and 3 Renew Life

Ultimate Flora a day.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

La Leche League and kellymom.com both have fabulous resources about

breastfeeding.

In short, YES you may be able to relactate even now. If it were me, I

would (a) hang out with baby in bed, topless, for a few days (if it is

that important to you, it might require calling in sick to work); (

eat lots of oatmeal during that time; © drink strong teas brewed

with fenugreek, fennel and other lactation-friendly herbs (again, see

kellymom.com). Feed nothing to baby except breastmilk. Drink lots of

water for mama. There's also a lactation drug (domperidone?) that can

help stimulate milk production.

>>

>> Is it too late for me to try and get my milk back? He got

>> colostrums the

>> first 3 days because he would suckle but by the end of the 3rd day he

>> started to refuse and fuss instead because he was too hungry and I

>> had

>> hardly any milk. I had to give him formula at the hospital (yucky

>> stuff

>> too

>> with soybean oil) because he lost a pound and they weren't going to

>> let us

>> leave. Next baby I'll have Doug go home and make formula after we're

>> settled in from labor.

>

Once you heal your gut (and often a faulty gut is a direct cause of

milk supply issues), in combination with lactation-supporting herbs

and foods, you should trust that your body can feed your (next) child

and abstain from using formula for as long as possible.

-jennifer

[Guest guest]

Hi Kerry is your story more detailed on your blog? I do not recall

seeing it there over the yrs.

Do you know what kind of pro b's i can give to my 4 mo old? That

question seemed to get lost in all the other subjects. I am

wondering if i should feed her some or not. My DH and i both suspect

we and our kids would very much be considered GAP kids/adults. I

would like to give baby a good start. I do exclusively bf always

have. I think more help is necessary considering we have only been

eating NT for a 3 yrs and have never reached 100%, have had a few set

backs like moving and living in empty houses with minimal supplies

etc... to cook NT and ferment things for the past yr and am trying to

get us back to where we left at 75 - 80%. So we have 2 yrs we were

on and very strict but it was also the transition time so we did not

incorporate the ferments yet.

So we never got us into kvass, kombucha, ferm. veggs etc.... doing

all the other NT stuff was task enough for me as my DH was deployed

almost the whole time (we lived together as a family a total of 1 yr

out of 5), i moved several times to new posts while he deployed or

left for half yr trainings then deployed again, and we had 2 more

babes during that time, and we homeschool too. Keeping up with

life and the new NT life was so hard. I did what i could NT wise

and it was great (we need to get back there again). I think even

though all that effort/change in the right direction was made it did

not do much because we still have more bad than good flora. We did a

kefir but for the first 1.5 yrs it was the store kind (plain), as i

could not get grains while we were stationed in Germany. I finally

got someone from this group to mail me some and used them for a bout

8 months before we moved. So we had just started getting used to it

in cups with OJ etc... Never got to the point where we could consume

it plain yet before it was time to move again.

Which brings us to this past yr, moved back to the US traveled as we

had been apart so long, visited family for weeks finally to home. A

lot of bouncing this past yr w/o eating NT, but still as healthy as

we could considering options and choices we had. We are finally

getting settled in our own home and waiting for our household goods

for over 6 months - hence the empty house w/o all the necessary stuff

to really do NT thoroughly.

Anyhow, all that to say it is hard, i got good at what were doing,

but there was not a lot of change overall we still fought with the

same health issues, did feel some healthier though. I suspect that

is like the book say's - still too much bad flora keeping everything

out of reach. So i would like to get my baby squared away and

started off right asap.

>

> > Kerry Ann, what have you done to recover your health?

>

> When I became ill I had been on a TF diet for almost 4 years.

Before anyone

> asks, yes, I only consumed soaked grains and raw dairy in the three

[Guest guest]

I was in labor for 8 hours before they opted for the c-section. The time

wasn't the problem but I stayed at 4 cm for 5 hours of that time with about

10 seconds between contractions. The baby's head was pushing against my

cervix and the doctor feared damage to his head if it went on much longer.

Also my water broke and it was mucky so they were worried about him inhaling

some of it.

If I was healthier maybe I could have prevented this and I wish I could have

had a midwife.

I wanted very badly to do it naturally and wouldn't let them give me any

drugs or anything until they said we had to do the C-section.

I do think it's probably overdone but I'm not sure in my case there was

another choice.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of inasnit@...

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:03 PM

Subject: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

>

> The c-section rate is far too high and totally not indicative of

> medical necessity - like pretty much everything else, it is more

> convenient than the natural path.

>

> -Lana

>

>

Yes, that is true. I agree.

I personally did everything I could to plan for a totally natural birth. I

did not want drugs of any kind. I even did hypnobirthing!

However, my baby was breech and over 8 pounds. No matter what we did, she

would not turn. My doctor felt it was safer to do a c-section. I trusted

him. I'm glad my baby was born healthy and I have no regrets.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

Thanks! I'll give all of these a try but not feeding him while I wait for

the milk isn't an option. He has a huge appetite and I just wouldn't be

able to deprive him like that. But I did see a device that has a tube

running from a bottle that I put with my nipple so as he suckles it

stimulates my milk production, feeds him and gets him used to food coming

from me insead of a bottle?? I can't remember what it is called but we plan

to go buy it.

He is also begging for solid foods and we have let him try a very limited

amount of organic babyfood peas which he loves.

My mom is hounding me to feed him cereal, again. I cannot wait to finally

be moved! =) We should find out when our house closes on Monday. We had a

house all lined up but it was sold out from under us while we were waiting

on the closing date.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Steinbachs

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:20 PM

Subject: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

La Leche League and kellymom.com both have fabulous resources about

breastfeeding.

In short, YES you may be able to relactate even now. If it were me, I

would (a) hang out with baby in bed, topless, for a few days (if it is

that important to you, it might require calling in sick to work); (

eat lots of oatmeal during that time; © drink strong teas brewed

with fenugreek, fennel and other lactation-friendly herbs (again, see

kellymom.com). Feed nothing to baby except breastmilk. Drink lots of

water for mama. There's also a lactation drug (domperidone?) that can

help stimulate milk production.

>>

>> Is it too late for me to try and get my milk back? He got

>> colostrums the

>> first 3 days because he would suckle but by the end of the 3rd day he

>> started to refuse and fuss instead because he was too hungry and I

>> had

>> hardly any milk. I had to give him formula at the hospital (yucky

>> stuff

>> too

>> with soybean oil) because he lost a pound and they weren't going to

>> let us

>> leave. Next baby I'll have Doug go home and make formula after we're

>> settled in from labor.

>

Once you heal your gut (and often a faulty gut is a direct cause of

milk supply issues), in combination with lactation-supporting herbs

and foods, you should trust that your body can feed your (next) child

and abstain from using formula for as long as possible.

-jennifer

[Guest guest]

What kind of clay? I was looking into that.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of KerryAnn at

CookingTF.com

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:18 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

> Kerry Ann, what have you done to recover your health?

When I became ill I had been on a TF diet for almost 4 years. Before anyone

asks, yes, I only consumed soaked grains and raw dairy in the three years

leading up to getting sick. We discovered I had celiac and a severe dairy

allergy. I went off of my allergens, went on massive doses of probiotics,

took L-glutamine, fermented foods and drinks, digestive enzymes, clays, HCl,

liver, and a whole host of supplements to help boost my deficiencies until

my digestion recovered to the point I could absorb the nutrients on my own

again.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

I had a similar problem and not enough cash to pay her out of pocket =(

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of inasnit@...

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 8:06 PM

Subject: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

Not everyone has access to a midwife. Due to my insurance, I didn't have the

choice. They do not allow midwives at the hospital I gave birth in.

On Jan 26, 2008 2:58 PM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...

<mailto:kerryann%40cookingtf.com> >

wrote:

>

> Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

> necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies show

> certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure, I agree gut flora can be *improved* via diet but I don't go as

far as agreeing that it can be completely corrected because quite

frankly there is no way GAPS fully corrects bad flora if it requires

its followers to supplement probiotics indefinitely.

I don't agree doctors are flawless people that I should worship every

word of. Your argument would make a lot more sense if she was a

doctor of microbiology in addition to nutrition, showing she would

have at least some trained expertise on microbes but that still

wouldn't make me believe just because she didn't address something

meant that she excluded it on purpose.

Nutrition, while an important first step, is by far not the only

effective measure in improving gut flora. To completely correct bad

flora, environment absolutely must come into play... which is

something I don't expect a doctor of nutrition to have any concept of.

I don't even expect a doctor of microbiology to totally understand,

although they would have a better chance of it. Maybe a doctor of

microbiology and biochemistry... Science is very limited in that the

fields do not communicate with each other, and thus, they totally miss

the big picture.

So IMHO, her protocol could use some work. Although, from the

summaries posted, I would agree that she seems to have the closest

idea out of everyone I've seen who has called themselves an expert on

the topic.

-Lana

> A sterile environment is idea, yes. However, as I mentioned before, this is

> not something Dr. -McBride, a doctor in neurology and nutrition, one

> of the world's leading experts on this topic, bothered to even mention in

> her book.

>

> An oversight? No, I don't think so.

> So whether c-sections are bad or good or necessary or not is not really the

> issue at hand here. The issue is that the balance of intestinal flora CAN be

> corrected via diet and supplementation.

[Guest guest]

> Sure, I agree gut flora can be *improved* via diet but I don't go as

> far as agreeing that it can be completely corrected because quite

> frankly there is no way GAPS fully corrects bad flora if it requires

> its followers to supplement probiotics indefinitely.

Bingo! If something is corrected, continued supplementation isn't needed.

Also, there are hundreds of strains of beneficial bacteria in the gut, and I

worry about continuous supplementation's effects on the strains of

beneficial flora that aren't included in the supplement.

However, I would say that supplementation is preferable to suffering. I

take regular breaks from all pills and currently only consume probiotic

foods and no pill-form supplementation.

I believe it is better for the bad bacteria to never be given the chance to

take root rather than have to spend a lifetime of expensive supplements to

fight it. I think if you add it all up, the initial cost of avoiding the

problem is less than the life-long cost of trying to correct it.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

On Jan 26, 2008 11:36 PM, Pendraig Siberians <blaidd2@...> wrote:

> Thanks! I'll give all of these a try but not feeding him while I wait for

> the milk isn't an option. He has a huge appetite and I just wouldn't be

> able to deprive him like that. But I did see a device that has a tube

> running from a bottle that I put with my nipple so as he suckles it

> stimulates my milk production, feeds him and gets him used to food coming

> from me insead of a bottle?? I can't remember what it is called but we

> plan

> to go buy it.

>

>

Yes that is the LactAid -- get that! And just keep giving him the raw milk

formula. You can add the BioKult to the formula (just don't heat it too

much).

>

>

> He is also begging for solid foods and we have let him try a very limited

> amount of organic babyfood peas which he loves.

>

>

>

I would not feed him any solids yet -- not until 6 months.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Bingo! If something is corrected, continued supplementation isn't needed.

> Also, there are hundreds of strains of beneficial bacteria in the gut, and

> I

> worry about continuous supplementation's effects on the strains of

> beneficial flora that aren't included in the supplement.

Dr. C-M recommends that people with GAPS stay on the supplement indefinitely

-- in addition to eating a variety of fermented foods in addition to a

maintenance dose.

This is not for the average person who has had a few rounds of antibiotics.

These are people who have severely damaged gut flora. People like you,

KerryAnn. If I were the mom of a child who went through what you went

through, I would keep my child on the supplement indefinitely.

We keep our children on cod liver oil indefinitely so how is this any

different?

>

> However, I would say that supplementation is preferable to suffering. I

> take regular breaks from all pills and currently only consume probiotic

> foods and no pill-form supplementation.

I " d be curious to see what would happen if you tried the BioKult KerryAnn.

Seems like you haven't tried it? Another one I tried that I was very

successful with was ThreeLac.

I had been taking another HFS brand of probiotics with no change to my

symptoms for over a month. I had sores in my nose that would not heal.

Within THREE days of taking ThreeLac, just ONE packet a day, the sores

healed up.

This was after over a MONTH of using the other storebought brand.

What that tells me is that there is a huge difference between brands. And oh

by the way, I was drinking kombucha every day, drinking beet kvass, drinking

kefir, eating yogurt, sauerkraut, pickles, etc. Nothing changed for me until

I took the ThreeLac.

Until you have a colonization, you can't recover.

If you still have food allergies and intolerances, you are not recovered.

>

> I believe it is better for the bad bacteria to never be given the chance

> to

> take root rather than have to spend a lifetime of expensive supplements to

> fight it. I think if you add it all up, the initial cost of avoiding the

> problem is less than the life-long cost of trying to correct it.

>

Yes, I agree, that is ideal.

Vaginal births with midwives are ideal.

Breastfeeding is ideal.

Homemade baby food with the best possible foods with no pesticides and no

GMO ingredients is ideal.

There are so many things we want to do to give our babies the best possible

start but this is the real world and it doesn't always go the way we plan.

No one is arguing that c-sections are better or even preferable.

It is counter-productive and insensitive to tell women who have already had

a c-section that they have permanently damaged their child via c-section.

Please be sensitive to who may be reading your posts.

It's not easy having babies and raising kids in this day and age. We do the

best we can.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

On Jan 27, 2008 6:08 AM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Sure, I agree gut flora can be *improved* via diet but I don't go as

> far as agreeing that it can be completely corrected because quite

> frankly there is no way GAPS fully corrects bad flora if it requires

> its followers to supplement probiotics indefinitely.

>

These are kids who had autism -- who could not speak and had no language.

Who sat and watched spinning objects all day and did not interact with

anyone. They can speak now and function normally. They are in regular

schools.

These are kids who had severe allergies to wheat, dairy, etc. Kids who can

now eat those foods with no reactions.

If that's not good enough recovery for you, I don't know what is.

>

> I don't agree doctors are flawless people that I should worship every

> word of. Your argument would make a lot more sense if she was a

> doctor of microbiology in addition to nutrition, showing she would

>

Nutrition, while an important first step, is by far not the only

> effective measure in improving gut flora. To completely correct bad

> flora, environment absolutely must come into play... which is

> something I don't expect a doctor of nutrition to have any concept of.

> I don't even expect a doctor of microbiology to totally understand,

> although they would have a better chance of it. Maybe a doctor of

> microbiology and biochemistry... Science is very limited in that the

OK, so based on that logic, unless you have a degree in something, you don't

know what you are talking about. So I guess we shouldn't listen to Albert

Einstein because he didn't finish high school.

Ann Marie

[Guest guest]

> We keep our children on cod liver oil indefinitely so how is this any

> different?

CLO is a food. Therapeutic grade doses of probiotics are not.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

> It is counter-productive and insensitive to tell women who have already

> had

> a c-section that they have permanently damaged their child via c-section.

> Please be sensitive to who may be reading your posts.

This is why I have been careful about responding to this thread and to you

in particular. Ann Marie, you honestly seem quite defensive about your own

decisions on the lists I'm on with you, and are always quick to admonish

people whom you think don't believe you had no choice. I never said that a

C-section 'permanently damages' a child in the ways you are inferring, and I

honestly think you're putting words I my mouth and having an overblown

reaction due to your defensiveness.

There needs to be a line where you personally have to understand that

regardless of what happened to you and the decisions you have made, others

need to be warned about the possible consequences of their choices. I

wouldn't shame a woman for having a C-section, I'm hoping to warn those who

are pregnant or are thinking about getting pregnant how to avoid them and

the other pitfalls common to pregnant women in our society at large.

Because you are overly sensitive to the topic, you take things as a personal

attack when they are not.

KerryAnn

www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

[Guest guest]

> When I became ill I had been on a TF diet for almost 4 years.

Before anyone

> asks, yes, I only consumed soaked grains and raw dairy in the three

years

> leading up to getting sick. We discovered I had celiac and a severe

dairy

> allergy. I went off of my allergens, went on massive doses of

probiotics,

> took L-glutamine, fermented foods and drinks, digestive enzymes,

clays, HCl,

> liver, and a whole host of supplements to help boost my deficiencies

until

> my digestion recovered to the point I could absorb the nutrients on

my own

> again.

thanks for pointing this out. i would just like to echo that although

I (and i presume most of us here) DO believe that raw milk from

grass-fed humanely raised and loved cows and goats is good for many

people, there are those of us who do NOT thrive on it. same with

soaked grains, same with meat, same with anything. i guess im just

trying to say that we should always remember that we are all

individuals. i know that all our physiology is pretty much the same

(as we are all human beings), but we all have minds, hearts, emotions,

etc that have a LOT to do with the way we feel (both in the heart AND

physically). for example, i personally feel i thrive on pretty much NO

carbohydrates. i DO know however that many on this board love soaked

grains. great! do i believe that most humans are better off without

any grains? yes, i do. however i do realize that if eating some soaked

grains will make you happy and content then it is perfect for you! not

for me, but good for you.

i guess im trying to remind everyone that when we each find something

that happens to work for us, to make us feel great, we are quick to

prescribe it to everyone. i do this, too. thats all. i still love

everything on this forum. take care!

[Guest guest]

On Jan 27, 2008 7:58 AM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com <kerryann@...>

wrote:

>

> I never said that a C-section 'permanently damages' a child in the ways

> you are inferring, and I

>

So you think a c-section does not permanently damage a baby's gut flora? I

thought that is the point you were making.

Were you making some other point I missed?

Ann Marie