healthy bodyfat for men

[Guest guest]

> Has anyone tried " superslow " or Slow Burn?

> Dr.Cowan suggested it to me, but I can't find anyone offering it in

my area.

> Take care,

> Alice - HSing mom to Alice (w/DS) born Thanksgiving Day 1995 :-)

> Hopewell Junction, NY http://www.frontiernet.net/~castella/

I tried it and enjoyed my time with it. As others have mentioned, the

idea is you are putting the muscle under so much tension for so long

that all the fibers get exhausted (slow medium and fast). The

original research was on middle aged women that showed that protocol

really increased their strength in a short amount of time.

(my opinions)

What it is good for:

- introducing complete newcomers to muscle isolation training

- coming back after layoff or injury

- strength building cycle

- reassuring for those who want a feeling of safety from no

ballistics

- not very strong people

- good results for minimal gym time

What it is not so good for

- training for speed

- training for coordination

- training for anatomy trains / whole body firing sequences

- really strong people don't show much improvement

- some people want to do more in the gym but Superslow is a short but

full wipeout

- like any one protocol, returns diminish if you don't change it up

[Guest guest]

--- Alan <alanmjones@...> wrote:

> > So now I use an altered form where I can't

> > handle very much weight but it sure fills my chest

> out nicely.

> >

>

> Hi . I'd be curious to know more about this

> technique.

>

Alan, I am not (obviously) but one exercise

that fits this bill is the Gironda Press. Check out

this article. It has a lot of other stuff in it and

it is towards the end that the Gironda Press is

described:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1100725

-

[Guest guest]

On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Masterjohn

<chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> ,

>

>> I said that tongue in check :-) I know they are very popular

>> exercises, but if one is doing a lot of multi-joint exercises like

>> cleans, clean and jerks, snatches, etc. then rows are superfluous.

>

> Right, but I don't really do those in the gym.

No, but even within the parameters of the exercises you have mentioned

there are weighted dips, squats (front, back, overhead, stop),

deadlifts, chinups, kettlebells (and all the various exercises that

can be done with them) and maybe cleans (power cleans, hang cleans,

etc.). As a group they would qualify in providing a full body workout.

> What I used to do was

> work out in the gym with the exercises we've been discussing until I

> hit a plateau, then work out with my kettlebell at home doing the

> types of exercises above for a month or two, and go back to the gym.

> I have done barbell clean and jerks before, but never got into them

> too deeply.

With rubber bumpers on a platform? IMO, too hard to learn any other

way. And once you get beyond the light weights, you need to be able to

drop them if you value your shoulders. Also, I don't think you can

really acquire the proper technique without a trainer.

> Also rows seem like a more precise match for bench press,

> especially since they not ballistic whereas the above are. I wonder

> if bench presses would be less likely to interfere with snatches if

> one balances them with the appropriate pulling motions? I never

> noticed any inhibitory effect of bench presses on my snatches.

So why would I add an exercise I don't like to offset an exercise that

I think is functionally useless (although it can create some nice

aesthetically pleasing lines for both men and women)? :-)

Seriously, I only do bench presses for the hypertrophy since my chest

tends to be underdeveloped. This is probably a vanity thing since I

have been told by many ordinary folks that my chest is just fine. At

any rate, I would never develop it enough to interfere with the

snatch. I enjoy the snatch. It has many benefits functionally and

athletically speaking that the bench does not :-)

>>> As to barbell arm curls, they are awesome. Every other form of arm

>>> curl is lame, especially EZ-curls, which are barbells that are curved

>>> so as to make them lame (and EZer). Barbell arm curls work out your

>>> entire arm and shoulders, make your forearms swell considerably, make

>>> blood vessels appear you didn't know you had, and make you wonder if

>>> you'll be able to steer on the way home. It's pretty sweet.

>

>> I do barbell curls along with my chest for the shaping aspect (and I

>> don't really think I need the curls for that), but again with the

>> multi-joint exercises the arms and shoulders get a very thorough

>> workout.

>

> Yes I think kettlebell ballistics do my arms just fine but, then

> again, they do not do the stuff in the above paragraph, which is kind

> of fun.

Hey, well " sport " is a good thing :-)

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Alan,

>> So now I use an altered form where I can't

>> handle very much weight but it sure fills my chest out nicely.

>>

>

> Hi . I'd be curious to know more about this technique.

I got it from Larry , the first Mr. Olympia. He was a student of

Vince Gironda, who apparently invented the approach. It looks like

has posted a link. Low weights and lots of pain...hehe...but it

works.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

,

> So now I use an altered

>> form where I can't

>> handle very much weight but it sure fills my chest

>> out nicely.

>

> You must be doing those Vince Gironda type bench

> presses.

Apparently so, since Larry was a student of Vince Gironda. It is

not just the type of bench but the altered flies and incline as a

group that does the trick. Painful but effective.

Vince wrote a book called _Unleashing the Wild Physique_ for someone

who simply wanted to look good in a relatively short period of time,

but IMO he blew it on the squats. He wanted people to get the benefits

of squats without getting a bigger butt, but from the photos I have

seen of him that is exactly what he needed :-)

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Here is Vince Gironda, trainer to the stars, in his prime:

http://www.girondatalks.com/

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

I do superslow at home. I came up with a routine from the books on it.

>

> Has anyone tried " superslow " or Slow Burn?

> Dr.Cowan suggested it to me, but I can't find anyone offering it in my area.

> Take care,

> Alice - HSing mom to Alice (w/DS) born Thanksgiving Day 1995 :-)

> Hopewell Junction, NY http://www.frontiernet.net/~castella/

>

[Guest guest]

>> What exactly are you training for?<<

Nothing, just to get someone who is not fit and not exercising doing an

activity that doesn't take a lot of time or frequency and, according to the

theory, will increase their metabolism and fitness a little.

Carolyn, would you be willing to share your routine with me so I can get

some ideas?

Take care,

Alice - HSing mom to Alice (w/DS) born Thanksgiving Day 1995 :-)

Hopewell Junction, NY http://www.frontiernet.net/~castella/

[Guest guest]

,

> Vince wrote a book called _Unleashing the Wild Physique_ for someone

> who simply wanted to look good in a relatively short period of time,

> but IMO he blew it on the squats. He wanted people to get the benefits

> of squats without getting a bigger butt, but from the photos I have

> seen of him that is exactly what he needed :-)

I read a survey of what muscles women liked well developed in a man,

and they were very different from what men put the emphasis on. If I

remember right, the butt was either the #1 or very close to it. Back

was up there also. Biceps were toward the bottom, even though some

guys will train them at the expense of everything else.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 5/17/08, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Here is Vince Gironda, trainer to the stars, in his prime:

>

> http://www.girondatalks.com/

Is it just me or did he overtrain his lats? Seems like his pecs are

too big and his lats are way too big, and his upper abdominals are way

out of proportion to his lower abdominals. He definitely has nice

legs, though you can't really see in the picture what his butt is

like.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Shouldn't this be labeled 'Religion' or something?

> On 5/17/08, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> > Here is Vince Gironda, trainer to the stars, in his prime:

> >

> > http://www.girondatalks.com/

>

> Is it just me or did he overtrain his lats? Seems like his pecs are

> too big and his lats are way too big, and his upper abdominals are way

> out of proportion to his lower abdominals. He definitely has nice

> legs, though you can't really see in the picture what his butt is

> like.

>

> Chris

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Yes but Ori uses a form of intermittent fasting :-)

>

> I used to do the Warrior Diet, with a few modifications... and it did me well

for

> a while but I never looked like that.

Judging by his picture it looks like he could use a few bench presses :-)

> After a while, I started

> getting kind of a gut, which I think may have been more from my

> stomach getting bigger than abdominal fat, though maybe a bit of both.

> I think part of this was that my feasting meals were so huge.

Yes IIRC Suze posted some " oink oinks " a few times when we described our meals.

> I was

> eating to get bigger. Ori has a nice amount of bulk on him, but he

> doesn't look like he constantly eats to bulk up.

To be honest with you, Ori looks weird to me. While nicely muscled, I

don't think I have ever seen a clear straight shot of him, and his

skin looks like it might be bad.

> If he did, with the

> length of time he's been training he'd probably be much more massive.

> I'd much rather look like he does than the massive look of long-time

> hypertrophy-focused bodybuilders.

There is some controversy as to whether you can gain bulk following

the Warrior Diet. I think mentioned at one time that a lot of

the Dragon Door guys gave it up because they couldn't maintain the

amount of bulk they wanted, although the Leangains guy I mention below

seems to have solved that problem.

I never bought into some of the foods he suggested, or the order, as

for me the WD was all about timing. And I simply didn't eat during the

day rather than under eat, but I eventually gave it up officially (by

which I mean sometimes I fall back into it but not by design) for

several reasons.

1. While I LOVE the freedom that fasting brings in terms of increased

productivity and focus mentally (those cetacholamines again) and by

not having to worry about food for long stretches of the day, the WD

strikes me as something that is best done in a social context. I love

cooking but not for myself. I love big meals but not by myself. In

fact, I really hate eating alone. So I could see a big meal if I was

married and/or with family. The WD tradition really is a communal meal

among warriors, but by myself, at least for me, it sucks, to put it

mildly.

2. It meant meal times were basically the end of my night. Big huge

meal, ready to do nothing but vegetate, watch a movie, surf the net,

etc. Not good unless I started eating at 9:00 pm or beyond (which I

did a lot).

3. It was way too much food in terms of the perception of others, and

that does play a role in my life. Kind of like a priest rolling around

in Jaguar that he bought with his side Internet business. Nothing

inherently wrong with it but he is creating battles and perceptions he

is not going to win.

4. I gradually began to eat less and less anyway.

5. It is a disaster if you don't consistently exercise.

Finally I was more interested in the every other day fasting he

alludes to in the book because I wanted to mimic how Orthodox Monks

fast, which is MonWedFr (although Monks are on the 16 hour plan as

mentioned below).

> I'm not doing intermittent fasting right now except skipping breakfast

> once a week but I suppose I could add in a liquid fast two days a week

> up to a small evening meal. Ori says he recommends in addition to the

> 20/4 pattern full days of undereating and full days of overeating.

Yeah I got that idea from Ori since I had already been contemplating

alternate day fasting on MonWedFri and just eating as much as I wanted

the rest of the days. While I fast intermittently, and don't do it for

physical reasons, I gave up the whole idea of overeating. I just eat

normally on the days I don't fast, eat pretty much what I want, and

don't worry about it. That seems to be the consensus of the

blogosphere on IF, to eat normally on the days you aren't fasting. It

also keeps you pretty lean.

>> Interestingly, among bloggers anyway, it seems to be the least popular

>> way of doing it.

>

> What are other ways people are using?

The main difference between Ori and the others is that they all

advocate needing some kind of caloric deficit to lose fat, but that

you don't need to count calories or get all tied up in making your

food choices or worry about being hungry (after the initial

adjustment) or being psychologically starved because of omitting

certain foods (like being low-carb) like you would on a " normal "

weight loss program. The deficit comes naturally by not going crazy on

the days you are eating.

Leangains: advocates a daily 16 hour fast. That gives you an 8 hour

window to eat with ideally the bulk of your calories coming after your

workout. The author doesn't think it is necessary to restrict the

eating window to 4 hours to get the many and varied benefits of IF.

http://avidityfitness.net/2008/01/12/interview-martin-berkhan/

excerpt:

" My take on IF shortens the fasting period down to 16 hours - in my

opinion, an ideal compromise between getting the best out of the

fasting, without the negatives that may follow with a longer fast.

This leaves eight hours as your eating window, in which myself and

most of my clients, eat three meals, leaving room for proper pre - and

post workout nutrition. I should note that I cycle calorie intake

depending on where the current priority lies (fat loss, recomposition

or lean mass gain). However, regardless of goals, the absolute

majority of the day's calorie intake is to be ingested in the post

workout window. In my experience, this may have a nutrient

partitioning effect which makes it possible to gain, or maintain,

muscle even on a weekly calorie deficit, or when dieting to very low

bodyfat levels.

" All of this is based on trial and error with regards to my own, and

my clients, personal experiences. I feel that extreme measures, like

confining the eating window to four hours or less, aren't needed to in

order to reap the benefits of intermittent fasting for those wishing

to improve their body composition. "

Fast Five: which advocates no eating during the day and a 5 hour

window to eat. So you fast for 19 hours a day including your sleep

times. Fast Five however does not recommend the amount of food Ori

does.

http://www.fast-5.com/ - The book is a free download

Eat Stop Eat: which advocates 24 hours fasts once or twice or week and

eating normally the rest of the week.

Blog: http://nutritionhelp.blogspot.com/

Book Page: http://www.eatstopeat.com/

Then there is every other day fasting but I'm not aware of a book or

blog devoted to such an approach.

I " chose " the Eat Stop Eat plan. I put " chose " in parentheses because

I was already doing that anyway for the weekly Orthodox fasts. With

the Eat Stop Eat plan I just modified it so that after dinner the

night before Wednesday and Friday I don't have any snacks, and don't

eat again (if at all) until dinner the following night, so that at

least 24 hours is on liquid. That way, if I'm in a situation where I

should eat for social reasons, I can just have a small Orthodox

fast-friendly meal and I'm no worse for the wear.

So two days a week water or lemon water for at least 24 hours, and the

rest of the week eat and drink to my hearts content. It is very

freeing. I haven't had to change a thing. Now I am just aware there

are body composition benefits (among others) as well.

Of course all of the above programs assume you are exercising. No

getting around that.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

> Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or eight-pack) abs?

Here is a 54 year old guy with a nice set of abs whose diet is about

58% fat and for a period was doing no cardio.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/high-fat-diet-no-cardio-washboard-abs/

He also suggests in another post that the best combo is interval

training a couple of times a week, with low intensity aerobics a few

times a week, along with weight training.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chronic-cardio/

My implementation: basketball (when I can fit it in), weightraining,

and sprints/stairs/ or some other kind of interval training a couple

of times a week. I just started this again and I feel great. Indoor

stationery cardio just doesn't do it for me.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

> I read a survey of what muscles women liked well developed in a man,

> and they were very different from what men put the emphasis on. If I

> remember right, the butt was either the #1 or very close to it. Back

> was up there also. Biceps were toward the bottom, even though some

> guys will train them at the expense of everything else.

Butt and back huh? All hail the snatch <g>

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

>> http://www.girondatalks.com/

>

> Is it just me or did he overtrain his lats? Seems like his pecs are

> too big and his lats are way too big, and his upper abdominals are way

> out of proportion to his lower abdominals. He definitely has nice

> legs, though you can't really see in the picture what his butt is

> like.

Well, being a bodybuilding guru and all, he thought his physique style

was pretty hot and wild.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Judging by his picture it looks like he could use a few bench presses :-)

I can't tell because he's lifting his arms up. I think I have a

half-decent chest, and had a decent one a couple years ago, but it

pretty much disappears if I stretch my arms up.

> To be honest with you, Ori looks weird to me. While nicely muscled, I

> don't think I have ever seen a clear straight shot of him, and his

> skin looks like it might be bad.

Yeah, a lot of his pics are dark. He seems to slouch forward too,

which makes it even more difficult to get a good look at him. But

he's clearly very cut, and I was just commenting about his abs.

> There is some controversy as to whether you can gain bulk following

> the Warrior Diet. I think mentioned at one time that a lot of

> the Dragon Door guys gave it up because they couldn't maintain the

> amount of bulk they wanted, although the Leangains guy I mention below

> seems to have solved that problem.

Interesting. I think I bulked up on the WD but I just gained more fat

and a bigger gut than I'd want. More importantly, it didn't fix my

sleeping problems, though Mastering Leptin did.

I guess the question is, why can't you bulk up on WD but can bulk up

on every-other-day fasting you describe below? Does that pose a

danger to mass gains?

[snip]

> The WD tradition really is a communal meal

> among warriors, but by myself, at least for me, it sucks, to put it

> mildly.

Hmm. I think it would be harder to do in a social context because

you'd have to convince everyone else to do it. I'd much rather cook

with someone I'm in love with, but not being in love with anyone I'll

settle for cooking by myself, which I kind of like. And it's good

practice :-)

> 2. It meant meal times were basically the end of my night. Big huge

> meal, ready to do nothing but vegetate, watch a movie, surf the net,

> etc. Not good unless I started eating at 9:00 pm or beyond (which I

> did a lot).

Wow, you go to bed late. My problem was it wasn't convenient enough

to start eating early enough. I'd rather go to bed 10-11:00, and I'd

rather go 2.5-3 hours between my meal and bed time, especially a large

meal like that.

> 3. It was way too much food in terms of the perception of others, and

> that does play a role in my life. Kind of like a priest rolling around

> in Jaguar that he bought with his side Internet business. Nothing

> inherently wrong with it but he is creating battles and perceptions he

> is not going to win.

I got invited to dinner to a friend's house when I was on the WD and I

think I ate most of his meat whereas he was expecting lots of

leftovers. He made references to it for a while, me eating all his

meat on that crazy WD. lol.

> 4. I gradually began to eat less and less anyway.

>

> 5. It is a disaster if you don't consistently exercise.

What sort of disaster?

> Finally I was more interested in the every other day fasting he

> alludes to in the book because I wanted to mimic how Orthodox Monks

> fast, which is MonWedFr (although Monks are on the 16 hour plan as

> mentioned below).

Liquid fasting 16 hours on non-fast days? Are you sure? Does it vary

from monastery to monastery?

>> I'm not doing intermittent fasting right now except skipping breakfast

>> once a week but I suppose I could add in a liquid fast two days a week

>> up to a small evening meal. Ori says he recommends in addition to the

>> 20/4 pattern full days of undereating and full days of overeating.

> Yeah I got that idea from Ori since I had already been contemplating

> alternate day fasting on MonWedFri and just eating as much as I wanted

> the rest of the days. While I fast intermittently, and don't do it for

> physical reasons, I gave up the whole idea of overeating. I just eat

> normally on the days I don't fast, eat pretty much what I want, and

> don't worry about it. That seems to be the consensus of the

> blogosphere on IF, to eat normally on the days you aren't fasting. It

> also keeps you pretty lean.

Well the every-other-day plan is similar to the rodent studies that

have been done, but in those, they ate almost twice as much on the

eating days.

Now can people bulk up on this diet, eating half as much food? Sounds

unlikely to me.

[snip]

> " My take on IF shortens the fasting period down to 16 hours - in my

> opinion, an ideal compromise between getting the best out of the

> fasting, without the negatives that may follow with a longer fast.

> This leaves eight hours as your eating window, in which myself and

> most of my clients, eat three meals, leaving room for proper pre - and

> post workout nutrition. I should note that I cycle calorie intake

> depending on where the current priority lies (fat loss, recomposition

> or lean mass gain). However, regardless of goals, the absolute

> majority of the day's calorie intake is to be ingested in the post

> workout window. In my experience, this may have a nutrient

> partitioning effect which makes it possible to gain, or maintain,

> muscle even on a weekly calorie deficit, or when dieting to very low

> bodyfat levels.

Interesting. But aren't there benefits to exercising on an empty

stomach, that you referred to? I see the benefit to bulking up by

having some protein before the workout -- maybe some type of

pre-digested pure protein supplement, or some fat-free fermented dairy

or something to supply the aminos? On the other hand, I usually do

three hours after eating for my " empty stomach " workout, and glycogen

might not be replete at 16 hours, even though it is supposedly mostly

liver glycogen that gets used up during fasting whereas muscle

glycogen is used up during physical activity.

[snip]

> So two days a week water or lemon water for at least 24 hours, and the

> rest of the week eat and drink to my hearts content. It is very

> freeing. I haven't had to change a thing. Now I am just aware there

> are body composition benefits (among others) as well.

So what are the composition benefits? Are you lower in bodyfat? Is

it as easy to gain mass if you are interested in that?

Chris

[Guest guest]

and anyone else good at analyzing photos,

>> Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or eight-pack) abs?

>

> Here is a 54 year old guy with a nice set of abs whose diet is about

> 58% fat and for a period was doing no cardio.

>

> http://www.marksdailyapple.com/high-fat-diet-no-cardio-washboard-abs/

Now this guy is flexing his abs and sucking in his gut, right? If so,

his abs are about 30% better than mine. I'd like to see a picture of

someone with this with really nice abs who is completely relaxed and

letting their gut hang loose, and breathing healthily through their

lower abdomen. Does anyone have a flat stomach when they are not

contracting their abs or sucking them in? If I stand up very straight

with my shoulders back, mine is almost flat if I'm not inhaling, or

not doing so correctly, but my lower abs still come out at an angle a

little bit.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> Well, being a bodybuilding guru and all, he thought his physique style

> was pretty hot and wild.

Yeah, but he looks like a bodybuilder instead of a person. Do you

train to look like that? If I were to look equivalently muscular, I

would want my lats half the size and my lower abs equally developed as

my upper abs, so that they come out to the same point, depth-wise.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 5/18/08, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>

>

>> I read a survey of what muscles women liked well developed in a man,

>> and they were very different from what men put the emphasis on. If I

>> remember right, the butt was either the #1 or very close to it. Back

>> was up there also. Biceps were toward the bottom, even though some

>> guys will train them at the expense of everything else.

>

> Butt and back huh? All hail the snatch <g>

Yeah, pretty much.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>> Right, but I don't really do those in the gym.

> No, but even within the parameters of the exercises you have mentioned

> there are weighted dips, squats (front, back, overhead, stop),

> deadlifts, chinups, kettlebells (and all the various exercises that

> can be done with them) and maybe cleans (power cleans, hang cleans,

> etc.). As a group they would qualify in providing a full body workout.

I don't do kettlebells when I'm doing a gym workout. I alternate

rather than overlap. So I'll be doing gym till I plateau probably,

then kettlebell for a few weeks, and so on. Chinups and dips seem

like opposites to me, whereas rows seem like the opposite of the

benchpress.

>> What I used to do was

>> work out in the gym with the exercises we've been discussing until I

>> hit a plateau, then work out with my kettlebell at home doing the

>> types of exercises above for a month or two, and go back to the gym.

>> I have done barbell clean and jerks before, but never got into them

>> too deeply.

> With rubber bumpers on a platform? IMO, too hard to learn any other

> way. And once you get beyond the light weights, you need to be able to

> drop them if you value your shoulders. Also, I don't think you can

> really acquire the proper technique without a trainer.

Not sure what rubber bumpers are. I felt like I had it down pretty

well though. I don't remember whether I asked for a trainer's help or

not. Seemed like an extension of clean and jerks with the kettlebell.

>> Also rows seem like a more precise match for bench press,

>> especially since they not ballistic whereas the above are. I wonder

>> if bench presses would be less likely to interfere with snatches if

>> one balances them with the appropriate pulling motions? I never

>> noticed any inhibitory effect of bench presses on my snatches.

> So why would I add an exercise I don't like to offset an exercise that

> I think is functionally useless (although it can create some nice

> aesthetically pleasing lines for both men and women)? :-)

Because it can create some nice aesthetically pleasing lines for both

men and women. :-)

> Seriously, I only do bench presses for the hypertrophy since my chest

> tends to be underdeveloped. This is probably a vanity thing since I

> have been told by many ordinary folks that my chest is just fine. At

> any rate, I would never develop it enough to interfere with the

> snatch. I enjoy the snatch. It has many benefits functionally and

> athletically speaking that the bench does not :-)

I had ordinary folks ask me if I was on steroids back in the day and I

doubt I looked anything like I was on steroids. lol.

>>>> As to barbell arm curls, they are awesome. Every other form of arm

>>>> curl is lame, especially EZ-curls, which are barbells that are curved

>>>> so as to make them lame (and EZer). Barbell arm curls work out your

>>>> entire arm and shoulders, make your forearms swell considerably, make

>>>> blood vessels appear you didn't know you had, and make you wonder if

>>>> you'll be able to steer on the way home. It's pretty sweet.

>>

>>> I do barbell curls along with my chest for the shaping aspect (and I

>>> don't really think I need the curls for that), but again with the

>>> multi-joint exercises the arms and shoulders get a very thorough

>>> workout.

>>

>> Yes I think kettlebell ballistics do my arms just fine but, then

>> again, they do not do the stuff in the above paragraph, which is kind

>> of fun.

> Hey, well " sport " is a good thing :-)

Told you so. :-)

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> Here is a youtube demonstration of them. You may

> think they are easy, but try them. I guarantee you

> will be panting out a lung after you do a few of them

>

Ooohhhh noo, I know better than that :-) They look pretty challenging to me.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

> Wow, I'm watching now. That's scary as hell and wouldn't do anything

> like it withotu a trainer!

LOL! Of course you would start with very light weights.

> I don't see how some of them aren't

> killing their wrists when they have them bent all the way backwards,

They are in the same position they would be in if you were doing a

front squat. It took me awhile to get my elbows up but I never had any

problems with my wrists.

> and I really wouldn't be weary about the whole throwing a bent leg

> backwards thing some of them are doing.

That is the jerk portion of the clean and jerk. You can also do a

squat jerk instead of the splitting the legs.

Clean and Squat Jerk - 28 second video

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

> ,

> how would you describe PUFA-skin? what do you mean? what does it look like?

It is something I notice on people who have skin that doesn't " glow "

or look hydrated, seems to be prematurely aging with wrinkles and/or

age spots, and seems to belie their otherwise healthy and active

lifestyles. Almost invariably when I inquire they are on a diet which

is low in saturated fats and high in PUFA's. Occasionally it might

lack protein as well. I really notice it with bodybuilders. I can

always tell the old school dieters (lots of fat and protein from whole

foods) from the new school dieters (high PUFA's, lots of fractionated

foods) because of the way their skin looks.

Obviously this is a term unique to me and highly unscientific as it is

just my own observations. But in my own experience I see this a lot,

ranging from primal dieters to WAPers and everything in between.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 5:38 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Carolyn,

>

>> ,

>> how would you describe PUFA-skin? what do you mean? what does it look like?

>

> It is something I notice on people who have skin that doesn't " glow "

> or look hydrated, seems to be prematurely aging with wrinkles and/or

> age spots, and seems to belie their otherwise healthy and active

> lifestyles. Almost invariably when I inquire they are on a diet which

> is low in saturated fats and high in PUFA's. Occasionally it might

> lack protein as well. I really notice it with bodybuilders. I can

> always tell the old school dieters (lots of fat and protein from whole

> foods) from the new school dieters (high PUFA's, lots of fractionated

> foods) because of the way their skin looks.

>

> Obviously this is a term unique to me and highly unscientific as it is

> just my own observations. But in my own experience I see this a lot,

> ranging from primal dieters to WAPers and everything in between.

I forgot to include my favorite quote on this issue of PUFA's

prematurely aging skin:

" In the l960s, Hartroft and Porta gave an elegant argument for

decreasing the ratio of unsaturated oil to saturated oil in the diet

(and thus in the tissues). They showed that the " age pigment " is

produced in proportion to the ratio of oxidants to antioxidants,

multiplied by the ratio of unsaturated oils to saturated oils. More

recently, a variety of studies have demonstrated that ultraviolet

light induces peroxidation in unsaturated fats, but not saturated

fats, and that this occurs in the skin as well as in vitro. Rabbit

experiments, and studies of humans, showed that the amount of

unsaturated oil in the diet strongly affects the rate at which aged,

wrinkled skin develops. The unsaturated fat in the skin is a major

target for the aging and carcinogenic effects of ultraviolet light,

though not necessarily the only one. "

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-oil.shtml

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous