healthy bodyfat for men

[Guest guest]

Huge discussion of this at Crossfit (I only read the nutrition

section). Short answer, yes, it can be, but with care.

Seems there are numerous opinions. Some guys will show ripped abs at

higher bodyfat % than others - some will show only at 5% others at 9-

10. Contest people dehydrate and low-carb to show only muscle (not

fat or water) to a level of 4-5% bodyfat. Athletic performance will

suffer at that level.

I believe the " general health " bodyfat level for guys is 15% and most

will not show ripped at that level.

There are those who advocate health-first, therefore no dehydrating

etc, and still maintain low BF levels and high performance.

Connie

>

> Does anyone have an opinion on what the healthiest level of bodyfat

> for men is, and what the lower limit is?

>

> Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or eight-pack) abs?

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

To get a six pack, most people are going to have to

get below 10 percent body fat. Six pack abs are made

STRICTLY by losing body fat. You can do ab exercises

til the cows come home and you won't have a six-pack

unless you do a low-carb diet. In fact, the people

who have the strongest ab muscles are not body

builders but powerlifters who do lots of heavy

deadlifts and squats (which, believe it or not,

according to most top coaches are the best exercises

for building ab muscles) and who, at least in the

Superheavy weight division (unlimited) are quite fat.

The muscle is there in the abs, you just can't see it.

As you may know, most of the year the top bodybuilders

" bulk " (eat lots of food, including carbs) and the abs

are not visible. Within a few weeks of their contests

they go on a very low carb diet (shredding). Probably

not unhealthy to do this. The reason they bulk most

of the year is that it is widely held that you can't

gain muscle unless you are eating lots of food,

including a relatively high amount of carbs (though

they are usually eating much less carbs than your

average american). The last 24-48 hours where they

start restricting water and eating almost 0 carbs is

definitely not healthy, but, then again, it lasts a

short period and is probably not that bad.

I would venture to say that getting below 10 percent

body fat is not unhealthy. The place to go to inquire

is www.t-nation.com. Personally, I do mostly Olympic

lifting and Strength Sports but a lot of people over

there are very knowledgeable and serious bodybuilders.

-

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

wrote:

> Does anyone have an opinion on what the healthiest

> level of bodyfat

> for men is, and what the lower limit is?

>

> Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or

> eight-pack) abs?

>

> Chris

>

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

[Guest guest]

Given that body building is more of a beauty competition than it is a sport, I'm

not sure I would trust a 'serious bodybuilder' (which sounds like an oxymoron to

me) about what is healthy and what is not.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Seay <entheogens@...>

> To get a six pack, most people are going to have to

> get below 10 percent body fat. Six pack abs are made

> STRICTLY by losing body fat. You can do ab exercises

> til the cows come home and you won't have a six-pack

> unless you do a low-carb diet. In fact, the people

> who have the strongest ab muscles are not body

> builders but powerlifters who do lots of heavy

> deadlifts and squats (which, believe it or not,

> according to most top coaches are the best exercises

> for building ab muscles) and who, at least in the

> Superheavy weight division (unlimited) are quite fat.

> The muscle is there in the abs, you just can't see it.

>

> As you may know, most of the year the top bodybuilders

> " bulk " (eat lots of food, including carbs) and the abs

> are not visible. Within a few weeks of their contests

> they go on a very low carb diet (shredding). Probably

> not unhealthy to do this. The reason they bulk most

> of the year is that it is widely held that you can't

> gain muscle unless you are eating lots of food,

> including a relatively high amount of carbs (though

> they are usually eating much less carbs than your

> average american). The last 24-48 hours where they

> start restricting water and eating almost 0 carbs is

> definitely not healthy, but, then again, it lasts a

> short period and is probably not that bad.

>

> I would venture to say that getting below 10 percent

> body fat is not unhealthy. The place to go to inquire

> is www.t-nation.com. Personally, I do mostly Olympic

> lifting and Strength Sports but a lot of people over

> there are very knowledgeable and serious bodybuilders.

>

> -

>

>

> --- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...>

> wrote:

>

> > Does anyone have an opinion on what the healthiest

> > level of bodyfat

> > for men is, and what the lower limit is?

> >

> > Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or

> > eight-pack) abs?

> >

> > Chris

> >

>

>

> Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

> Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

> The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

> The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

> The best lack all conviction, while the worst

> Are full of passionate intensity.

>

> -WB Yeats

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- implode7@... wrote:

>

> Given that body building is more of a beauty

> competition than it is a sport, I'm not sure I would

> trust a 'serious bodybuilder' (which sounds like an

> oxymoron to me) about what is healthy and what is

> not.

Well, I meant that if someone was wanting to find out

how they get down to low bodyfat they could see how

these people do it

, then, one could determine if it is healthy or not.

Believe it or not, a lot of bodybuilders are

interested in health. Not all of them are steroid

freaks. As far as " serious bodybuilder " being an

oxymoron, I don't follow you. A lot of them are very

devoted and study a lot about nutrition and the like.

-

[Guest guest]

> Does anyone have an opinion on what the healthiest level of bodyfat

> for men is, and what the lower limit is?

>

> Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or eight-pack) abs?

Personally, I think it depends on your genetics. Some folks can have

very visible abs at a higher fat level. I would think from a health

standpoint going below 10% bodyfat is not a good ideal. Covert ,

the Fit or Fat author, thought (IIRC) that going below 12%-15% wasn't

a good idea for men. I don't have his book in front of me so I don't

know his references.

Karl Malone, the recently retired Utah Jazz power forward and

perennial all-star, had one of the the best bodies in the NBA. I saw

him take his shirt off once on ESPN's the Best Damn Sports Show in

America and he looked very lean, at a bodyfat percentage of about 12%

(although at one time he claimed to have gotten as low as 7%). IMO, he

had a perfect " layman's " build with a great set of abs that I think

anyone outside of bodybuilding circles would have found very pleasing.

Practically speaking, intermittent fasting will give you nice abs

combined with a good workout. They may not be as visible as getting to

a really low bodyfat level, but is probably much healthier with all

the benefits of IF (and none of the negatives of CR).

If on Wednesdays and Fridays you follow the strictest interpretation

of the Orthodox Fasts that involve food, not eating anything until

after the ninth hour, and train deep into the fast, you stomach should

be pretty visible, regardless of the makeup of your diet the rest of

the week.

For example - you have dinner Tuesday night and don't eat again until

Wednesday night (if at all), your stomach should become quite visible.

Same thing after your Thursday night meal. It may be hard the first

few times but you will quickly adjust. Due to the release of growth

hormone and catecholamines, hunger won't be noticeable.

Also IF ranges from 16 - 36 hours depending on who you are reading,

from daily to once or twice a week, all with fairly good results. I

use the 24-36 hour approach because that is what I would be doing

anyway, whether or not I was working out and trying to keep a lean

stomach.

So I don't know if its healthy to be very ripped. It probably depends

on what you do to get that way.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Thanks for everyone's responses.

> not eating anything until

> after the ninth hour,

Forgive my ignorance but what time of day is that in o'clock terms? :-P

Chris

[Guest guest]

A general reply to the thread thus far:

It seems obvious to me and probably everyone else here that

deliberately dehydrating is stupid, or at least not very healthy.

I'm not sure the point of low-carbing, unless it is followed by a

carb-loading meal? I thought muscularity is increased by carbs

because they replete glycogen stores. So low-carbing to lose fat then

enough carbs to replete glycogen stores? Not that it matters to me,

since I'm not trying to get ripped abs for an event, but just

considering whether mine should be a bit more ripped in general.

I agree about the bodyfat variance. Potential inaccuracies aside,

when I used to work out at the gym a couple years ago, the Tibia scale

or whatever it was called would usually say I had around 12% bodyfat,

but I still had a clearly defined six-pack, whereas most articles I've

read say you need under 10% (sometimes they cap it even lower).

I disagree that it is ALL about losing bodyfat. Maybe that's true of

*whether* you see definition, but what you see once that definition is

there is dependent on your muscular make up.

I guess I have a six-pack already, but it isn't as ripped as the guys

on the cover of men's fitness magazines, nor the guys playing

volleyball on Top Gun (it was on last night). If I contract all my

muscles, I have a pretty well-defined 8-pack and have nice definition

in my obliques as well as that part where the abs meet the waste. If I

relax all my muscles, my six-pack definition is still visible, but it

is somewhat faint. If I'm breathing well, and letting my abdomen

expand, I look more pregnant than ripped but there is still a little

definition there.

I just joined a gym for the first time in the last couple years. I'd

only been working out my eyes with the computer monitor and my butt

with the chair for the most part so had lost most of the weight I

gained working out before (high 130s or low 140s), but over the course

of this year I got back into kettlebells and got myself up to 150-154

or so. I just joined a gym last week so I'm hoping to put on another

10 pounds of muscle and maybe lose some fat.

I'm mostly into training to be healthy, but looking good is kind of a

nice bonus so I might as well take advantage of it. I figure if I

have some ab definition without an intense workout regimen, I should

be able to get a decently ripped 8-pack with one. Right now I'm

reconstructing most of my former workout, centered around the

powerlifter big three, focusing on 1-5 rep ranges for emphasis on

strength, and various additional exercises, mostly free weights. In

between workout days I just started doing interval training on the

eliptical for 40 minutes, which burns over 700 calories and supposedly

boosts metabolism long-term, like the weightlifting does.

Water fasting regularly sounds infeasible to me but I could do fasting

on kefired coconut water maybe. However, I don't really want to turn

fasting into a vanity thing, and having a ripped abs is pretty much

sheer vanity. I am practicing exercising on an empty stomach though

(3 hours since eating I try to do) to enhance the fasting part of the

fasting-feeding cycle.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris

>> not eating anything until

>> after the ninth hour,

>

> Forgive my ignorance but what time of day is that in o'clock terms? :-P

Generally, the ninth hour of the day after dawn. So about 3:00 pm

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

,

> Just go all the way down, till your butt is just above the ground. It

> will be obvious even without a mirror because you won't be able to go

> any further. The main thing is to make sure your back is angled

> properly which shouldn't be a problem if you have good flexibility in

> bith your back and calves.

Yeah, I guess I forgot that I always did deep squats but now it's all

coming back to me. lol.

> People still do rows and curls? :-)

I don't find rows very fun, but my reasoning is that the 90 degree

bent over barbell row is the opposite of the bench press and the 45

degree one would be the opposite of the dumbell incline. I always

liked the logic of push-pull balancing.

As to barbell arm curls, they are awesome. Every other form of arm

curl is lame, especially EZ-curls, which are barbells that are curved

so as to make them lame (and EZer). Barbell arm curls work out your

entire arm and shoulders, make your forearms swell considerably, make

blood vessels appear you didn't know you had, and make you wonder if

you'll be able to steer on the way home. It's pretty sweet.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>> I'm not sure the point of low-carbing, unless it is followed by a

>> carb-loading meal? I thought muscularity is increased by carbs

>> because they replete glycogen stores. So low-carbing to lose fat then

>> enough carbs to replete glycogen stores? Not that it matters to me,

>> since I'm not trying to get ripped abs for an event, but just

>> considering whether mine should be a bit more ripped in general.

> That is the general theory. The old school bodybuilders were very much

> into low carbing, and then briefly adding carbs right before a

> contest. Their idea was to come into a contest at their heaviest,

> unlike today where people bulk up and then strip down. The OG's looked

> much healthier, and it is difficult to tell among modern professional

> bodybuilders what is real and what isn't because of the widespread use

> of steroids.

I'm pretty sure I read the low-carb, carb-before-contest in a modern

mag, although it's possible I read it in Arnold's book, which gyms

often have a copy of. (Which is pretty good -- he recommends, for

example, whole food smoothies made from yogurt and egg yolks and honey

as a post-workout snack instead of the crap everyone else uses.)

[snip]

>> I guess I have a six-pack already, but it isn't as ripped as the guys

>> on the cover of men's fitness magazines, nor the guys playing

>> volleyball on Top Gun (it was on last night).

> The thing is you have no idea how much training they did to look like

> that for the movie. On the other hand, I love beach volleyball, and

> there are lots of folks with regular jobs (i.e they can't devote a

> humongous time to training) who have some pretty nice looking abs.

Oh I'm sure, but my point was not that I *should* have abs like that

for my given workout, but simply that there is clearly a lower fat

physique that looks better, and I wouldn't mind having it if it were

healthy.

> Interval training is all the rage now, and people like to point to the

> physique of sprinters as an example of what interval training coupled

> with weights will do for you. I'm less than convinced. My guess is

> most folks saying that have never been track athletes or coaches,

> because they do LOTS of low intensity stuff in addition to the high

> intensity training. I'm not dissing interval training. I vastly prefer

> it over aerobics (which I think is highly overrated in many ways),

> which I can't stand unless I'm playing a sport (which combines both

> depending on the sport) but I think in some ways it is being over

> hyped.

It's basically filler for the days I don't do weightlifting on. It

would be overtraining to lift weights five or six days a week,

especially with the distribution of exercises I'm using right now, and

I'll burn more fat if I do some type of exercise on the in between

days, so it is interval or straight cardio, and interval seems better

to me. In many ways my kettlebell routine is an interval workout,

since I use ballistics almost exclusively and only rest a minute in

between, usually walking around in between.

>> Water fasting regularly sounds infeasible to me but I could do fasting

>> on kefired coconut water maybe.

> I never really noticed the difference between coconut water and water

> fasting, they both are/were difficult for me in the early stages of a

> longer fast :-)

Well here we are talking about 2/3 of the day or so, and I think

kefired coconut water would be easier.

[snip]

>> However, I don't really want to turn

>> fasting into a vanity thing, and having a ripped abs is pretty much

>> sheer vanity.

> I have advised folks who are sick or overweight going into Lent to

> look at as a way to more deeply enter the fast, focusing on what is

> most important while nonetheless getting the physical benefits of more

> intense (i.e liquid) fasting. Not really much different than working

> out to be healthy but realizing you will get some " looking good "

> benefits as well or just getting well in general if you are sick

> (plus, I see many benefits to IF that have nothing nothing to do with

> nice abs, even if only done one day a week) The time this year during

> Lent when I was eating (which ranged from vegan meals to vitamix

> juices during the early stages) versus the liquid and absolute

> portions of the fast (the first week and the last month) was like

> night and day, spiritually speaking, especially during Holy Week.

Well I think there are a lot of benefits to intermittent fasting and I

don't think there's anything wrong with acknolwedging them or pointing

out those benefits to other people, but I'm just saying I'm not sure

I'd want to design my fasting and activity centered around cutting

down my ab fat, that's all.

Chris

[Guest guest]

> I'm pretty sure I read the low-carb, carb-before-contest in a modern

> mag, although it's possible I read it in Arnold's book, which gyms

> often have a copy of.

In general, the moderns are into low-fat before contests (with a crab

up towards the end), the OG's as a general rule were not.

> (Which is pretty good -- he recommends, for

> example, whole food smoothies made from yogurt and egg yolks and honey

> as a post-workout snack instead of the crap everyone else uses.)

Its been awhile but I seem to recall his book being pretty good as far

as bodybuilders go.

>> I never really noticed the difference between coconut water and water

>> fasting, they both are/were difficult for me in the early stages of a

>> longer fast :-)

>

> Well here we are talking about 2/3 of the day or so, and I think

> kefired coconut water would be easier.

Yeah on the one day fasts I can go water or coconut water or even

fresh juice and it is all bout the same.

> Well I think there are a lot of benefits to intermittent fasting and I

> don't think there's anything wrong with acknolwedging them or pointing

> out those benefits to other people, but I'm just saying I'm not sure

> I'd want to design my fasting and activity centered around cutting

> down my ab fat, that's all.

Nope, and I wasn't suggesting that.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

>> People still do rows and curls? :-)

>

> I don't find rows very fun, but my reasoning is that the 90 degree

> bent over barbell row is the opposite of the bench press and the 45

> degree one would be the opposite of the dumbell incline. I always

> liked the logic of push-pull balancing.

I said that tongue in check :-) I know they are very popular

exercises, but if one is doing a lot of multi-joint exercises like

cleans, clean and jerks, snatches, etc. then rows are superfluous.

> As to barbell arm curls, they are awesome. Every other form of arm

> curl is lame, especially EZ-curls, which are barbells that are curved

> so as to make them lame (and EZer). Barbell arm curls work out your

> entire arm and shoulders, make your forearms swell considerably, make

> blood vessels appear you didn't know you had, and make you wonder if

> you'll be able to steer on the way home. It's pretty sweet.

I do barbell curls along with my chest for the shaping aspect (and I

don't really think I need the curls for that), but again with the

multi-joint exercises the arms and shoulders get a very thorough

workout.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

and ,

>

> This article has exercises and explanations for

> rotator cuff exercises and is damn good:

> http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459577

That same website also touts the shoulder horn for rotator cuff work:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=538204

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

writes:

>>Does anyone have an opinion on what the healthiest level of bodyfat

for men is, and what the lower limit is?

Is it healthy to have ripped six-pack (or eight-pack) abs? <<

Well, I have been on a strict carbohydrate restriction diet, with a good amount

of daily red meat from grassfed animals, including frequent organ meats... and I

hav always been athletic even before this switch to more optimal nutrition for

my body and for general lowered oxidicity and immune stress... and I have to

report that I'm on the Hillary Clinton approach: no matter what, I keep loosing,

and my abs are already sixpacked.

If you really follow this approach without daily " sinning " , there's no way one

can not have sixpacks, in my experience in this lifetime... and therefore me

says: Yappa doodle. It's healthy alright. Healthier than eating them starches

or sugars that will cause fat tissue around the abdomens and elsewhere in the

first place. But we'll probably all die at some point anyway, from something...

unless they get that figured out too with computers and such.

Now, that's just me talking, a currently healing diabetic...

Best,

Boris the Chorus

who Refrains from more elaboration

[Guest guest]

,

> I said that tongue in check :-) I know they are very popular

> exercises, but if one is doing a lot of multi-joint exercises like

> cleans, clean and jerks, snatches, etc. then rows are superfluous.

Right, but I don't really do those in the gym. What I used to do was

work out in the gym with the exercises we've been discussing until I

hit a plateau, then work out with my kettlebell at home doing the

types of exercises above for a month or two, and go back to the gym.

I have done barbell clean and jerks before, but never got into them

too deeply. Also rows seem like a more precise match for bench press,

especially since they not ballistic whereas the above are. I wonder

if bench presses would be less likely to interfere with snatches if

one balances them with the appropriate pulling motions? I never

noticed any inhibitory effect of bench presses on my snatches.

>> As to barbell arm curls, they are awesome. Every other form of arm

>> curl is lame, especially EZ-curls, which are barbells that are curved

>> so as to make them lame (and EZer). Barbell arm curls work out your

>> entire arm and shoulders, make your forearms swell considerably, make

>> blood vessels appear you didn't know you had, and make you wonder if

>> you'll be able to steer on the way home. It's pretty sweet.

> I do barbell curls along with my chest for the shaping aspect (and I

> don't really think I need the curls for that), but again with the

> multi-joint exercises the arms and shoulders get a very thorough

> workout.

Yes I think kettlebell ballistics do my arms just fine but, then

again, they do not do the stuff in the above paragraph, which is kind

of fun.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

>> http://www.warriordiet.com/images/CFTAbs.jpg

>>

>> I clearly have more bodyfat than he does.

> Yes but Ori uses a form of intermittent fasting :-)

I used to do the Warrior Diet, with a few modifications (I would

usually use small amounts of raw egg yolks and coconut oil in addition

to fermented veggies in the undereating phase), and it did me well for

a while but I never looked like that. After a while, I started

getting kind of a gut, which I think may have been more from my

stomach getting bigger than abdominal fat, though maybe a bit of both.

I think part of this was that my feasting meals were so huge. I was

eating to get bigger. Ori has a nice amount of bulk on him, but he

doesn't look like he constantly eats to bulk up. If he did, with the

length of time he's been training he'd probably be much more massive.

I'd much rather look like he does than the massive look of long-time

hypertrophy-focused bodybuilders.

I'm not doing intermittent fasting right now except skipping breakfast

once a week but I suppose I could add in a liquid fast two days a week

up to a small evening meal. Ori says he recommends in addition to the

20/4 pattern full days of undereating and full days of overeating.

> Interestingly, among bloggers anyway, it seems to be the least popular

> way of doing it.

What are other ways people are using?

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:12 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

>

> So now I use an altered form where I can't

> handle very much weight but it sure fills my chest out nicely.

>

Hi . I'd be curious to know more about this technique.

--

Alan (alanmjones@...)

[Guest guest]

,

>

> > Just go all the way down, till your butt is just above the ground. It

> > will be obvious even without a mirror because you won't be able to go

> > any further. The main thing is to make sure your back is angled

> > properly which shouldn't be a problem if you have good flexibility in

I disagree with this. It's ideal but it depends on your body and if

your adductors are too tight and abductors are too weak your knees

will track wrong and this is very common. Most people for whatever

reasons break form in some way trying to go all the way down, you have

to be very strict and use a lot lighter weight for awhile. A lot of

people who want to stay heavy for whatever reasons compromise and just

go as far as they can keeping form which can be somewhere b/w below

parallel and their butt just being above the ground or some people

b/c of their body structure need a plank under their heels to acheive

this. Part of having the right form includes maintaining the TA

contraction and you really need to just have someone who knows what

they are doing watch your form. Even if it means finding a personal

trainer to train you one time to look at your form. Once you have get

into an incorrect pattern, it's very difficult to break

> I don't find rows very fun, but my reasoning is that the 90 degree

> bent over barbell row is the opposite of the bench press and the 45

> degree one would be the opposite of the dumbell incline. I always

> liked the logic of push-pull balancing.

I don't know if you read my earlier post but the Get Buffed book I

mentioned really emphasizes this. Ian Kins is one of the most

successful strength coaches. He has another book How to design

programs. If there's a scientific systematic approach to changing your

body, I say use that and make educated decisions about all the

variables: Like what tempo you are using and how many days a week you

train, method of periodization, rest periods, exercise selection,

frequency etc. Every variable can lend itself more readily to the

different strength training qualities such as hypertrphy, maximal

stregnth, explosive power, quickness, and strength endurance. I say

why leave it to chance

[Guest guest]

Crayfish,

>> > Just go all the way down, till your butt is just above the ground. It

>> > will be obvious even without a mirror because you won't be able to go

>> > any further. The main thing is to make sure your back is angled

>> > properly which shouldn't be a problem if you have good flexibility in

>

> I disagree with this. It's ideal but it depends on your body and if

> your adductors are too tight and abductors are too weak your knees

> will track wrong and this is very common.

I was assuming that already knew how to do a proper Olympic

Squat. Thanks for clarifying that.

http://tomgorman.moonfruit.com/#/squattingtips/4511655199

The above author doesn't think full squats are necessary but still a

good description (and check out the pic to the right!)

> Most people for whatever

> reasons break form in some way trying to go all the way down, you have

> to be very strict and use a lot lighter weight for awhile.

Yes this is certainly true of the Olympic squat where the barbell/body

is held in a slightly different position than the power squat.

However, outside of Olympic lifters, some powerlifters, and an

occasional bodybuilder, I ***rarely*** see people doing a full squat.

Most think it is unhealthy and/or can't do it properly for some

mechanical reason or don't need to do it if their goal is to maximize

the amount of weight they are lifting (like most US powerlifters).

Power Squats vs Olympic Squats

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tya4.htm

Here is another guy who thinks the power squat vs Olympic squat

dichotomy is good as far as it goes, but is inadequate for fully

explaining things.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/151/

> A lot of

> people who want to stay heavy for whatever reasons compromise and just

> go as far as they can keeping form which can be somewhere b/w below

> parallel and their butt just being above the ground or some people

> b/c of their body structure need a plank under their heels to acheive

> this.

Olympic lifting shoes have a wood bottom with a slight angle that

everyone should use, IMO, when doing a full Olympic squat unless they

have great flexibility.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Weightlifting/WeightliftingShoes.html

As for the rest, it is a matter of developing flexibility while

maintaining proper form. It is not a permanent impediment from doing

the full squat. I eventually got there and my original trainer said I

was the most inflexible adult he had ever trained.

> Part of having the right form includes maintaining the TA

> contraction and you really need to just have someone who knows what

> they are doing watch your form. Even if it means finding a personal

> trainer to train you one time to look at your form. Once you have get

> into an incorrect pattern, it's very difficult to break

Good point. I started with a personal trainer who not only corrected

my squat form but my deadlift form as well while teaching me how to do

the classic lifts.

>> I don't find rows very fun, but my reasoning is that the 90 degree

>> bent over barbell row is the opposite of the bench press and the 45

>> degree one would be the opposite of the dumbell incline. I always

>> liked the logic of push-pull balancing.

>

> I don't know if you read my earlier post but the Get Buffed book I

> mentioned really emphasizes this. Ian Kins is one of the most

> successful strength coaches. He has another book How to design

> programs. If there's a scientific systematic approach to changing your

> body, I say use that and make educated decisions about all the

> variables: Like what tempo you are using and how many days a week you

> train, method of periodization, rest periods, exercise selection,

> frequency etc. Every variable can lend itself more readily to the

> different strength training qualities such as hypertrphy, maximal

> stregnth, explosive power, quickness, and strength endurance. I say

> why leave it to chance

While you are addressing the _Get Buffed_ book represents a

different philosophy than training with the classic lifts, although

I'm sure it can be very useful for its intended audience and Chris

might really enjoy it.

--

I will say that unless one is in some kind of daily, personal dynamic,

be it marriage or monasticism, one will never truly see themselves.

Like it or not in either of these situations there is inescapable

feedback on one's character and choices...There is a built in reality

gauge in living in an intimate vowed relationship that cannot be

simulated otherwise.

-Anonymous

[Guest guest]

Has anyone tried " superslow " or Slow Burn?

Dr.Cowan suggested it to me, but I can't find anyone offering it in my area.

Take care,

Alice - HSing mom to Alice (w/DS) born Thanksgiving Day 1995 :-)

Hopewell Junction, NY http://www.frontiernet.net/~castella/

[Guest guest]

--- <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

So now I use an altered

> form where I can't

> handle very much weight but it sure fills my chest

> out nicely.

You must be doing those Vince Gironda type bench

presses.

[Guest guest]

Speaking of proper form, aside from a really good

coach (I am not talking about one of those personal

trainers that you see in the gym that specialize in

chatting) a great book is Mark Rippetoe's " Starting

Strength " . Get the second edition. It has about 50

pages devoted to the squat, 50 to the deadlift and

another 50 to the bench press. Also convers some of

the other exercises. Well, worth the money. You can

get it at Amazon.

-

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

[Guest guest]

>

> Has anyone tried " superslow " or Slow Burn?

> Dr.Cowan suggested it to me, but I can't find anyone offering it in

my area.

There was a super slows gym literally across the street from the

personal training studio I worked at and we would always get so many

of their clients and all of them, of the sampling of people, ended up

hating it or getting injured. I have never experienced it myself but

the first problem I can see with it is that it fails to address all

the strength training qualities such as explosive power or even

general strength. You are just doing these machines that are the same

movements with the same tempo probably in the same order on the same

days with the same rests, etc. A successful training program includes

many variables that get left out with super slow. Of course the

relative simplicity of it is appealing.

[Guest guest]

--- castella@... wrote:

> Has anyone tried " superslow " or Slow Burn?

> Dr.Cowan suggested it to me, but I can't find anyone

> offering it in my area.

Yes, when I saw Dr. Cowan and spoke of my Olympic

lifting, he mentioned that he did Super Slow Training.

No one offers a class in it. You just get a barbell

or dumbells and use a slow tempo for lifting. If you

google it, you will find more instructions.

I have a lot of doubts about it (Super Slow Training).

The idea seems to be to increase the time the muscle

is under pressure. The classic refutation of this is

to compare a sprinter to a marathon runner. Now

sprinters usually have great physiques and marathon

runners look like shit (they also have high incidence

of myocardial inflammation and the consequent heart

problems). Anyway, the marathoner does more work over

a long period of time but the sprinter does a smaller

amount of work but at a more intense level over a

briefer span of time.

You can try it. Depending on your goals, it may be

good for a while. I However, one problem for an

athlete is that you don't want your muscles to learn

to work slowly.

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

-WB Yeats

[Guest guest]

I have never tried superslow or looked at any research but I'd be

willing to be that 1) if I tried it I'd hate it and 2) if there were

research, and I looked at it, I wouldn't be impressed. It just

doesn't make any sense. What exactly are you training for? The

ability to have something heavy fall on you and live for 2 minutes

instead of 15 seconds? Seems to me that pushing or pulling movements

that are functionally useful tend to be at a moderate or fast pace.

You might not use explosive powers every day, but you'd use them more

often than you'd use a superslow movement. And some public doors are

so heavy that it can be helpful to be rather explosive about opening

them. I can see some value in isometrics. I mean, practicing

isometric pushups could be functionally useful in sex in some cases,

to hold yourself up, but a superslow pushup wouldn't.

And then I just second what I think it was who said about

marathon runners. Seems like superslow is like distance running

instead of sprinting. Distance running seems to function mostly by

tearing the body apart. Hopefully superslow doesn't stop a woman from

menstruating though, in which case it might have something over

intense distance running.

Chris