Re: How come our stomcah acid doesn't kill the good bacteria

May 13, 2008

On 5/13/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

> We want our stomachs to have enough HCL to kill harmful stuff but how

> come it doesn't kill the good flora that yogurt and kefir give us?

The milk matrix is protective. With supplements, you get a much

larger dose -- I think that's most of it.

Chris

May 13, 2008

I don't know if this is true but I was looking at an enzyme supplement

(bio-core optimum) and they mentioned the stomach with food in it was

only like ph 2.5 to 4 and that doesn't seem way to acidic to me.

http://www.nationalenzyme.com/pdf-downloads/biocore-bg/optimum-bg.pdf

I think its when your stomach is empty that the ph can be very low.

-

> > We want our stomachs to have enough HCL to kill harmful stuff but how

> > come it doesn't kill the good flora that yogurt and kefir give us?

>

> The milk matrix is protective. With supplements, you get a much

> larger dose -- I think that's most of it.

>

> Chris

>

May 13, 2008

Ideally when you are done digesting the food you've eaten, the stomach is

back to it's low PH before it empties.

Most foods spend at least 15 minutes in the stomach - except water that

passes right through. When I take probiotics I mix them with water to ensure

they do not stay in my stomach for long.

-Lana

On 5/13/08, gdawson6 <gdawson6@...> wrote:

>

> I don't know if this is true but I was looking at an enzyme supplement

> (bio-core optimum) and they mentioned the stomach with food in it was

> only like ph 2.5 to 4 and that doesn't seem way to acidic to me.

>

> http://www.nationalenzyme.com/pdf-downloads/biocore-bg/optimum-bg.pdf

>

> I think its when your stomach is empty that the ph can be very low.

>

> -

>

May 13, 2008

Starch that has been heated and cooled, such as that found in sourdough

bread, also protects the microbes on their passage through the stomach.

-Lana

On 5/13/08, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> On 5/13/08, crayfishfeed <crayfishfeed@...> wrote:

> > We want our stomachs to have enough HCL to kill harmful stuff but how

> > come it doesn't kill the good flora that yogurt and kefir give us?

>

> The milk matrix is protective. With supplements, you get a much

> larger dose -- I think that's most of it.

>

> Chris

May 13, 2008

--- <gdawson6@...> wrote:

> I don't know if this is true but I was looking at an enzyme

> supplement (bio-core optimum) and they mentioned the stomach with

> food in it was only like ph 2.5 to 4 and that doesn't seem way to

> acidic to me.

, digestive stomach pH of 2.5 to 4 is what I remember reading

also. I've also read that kombucha typically has a pH of about 2.5

and kefir about 4, so these probiotics may already be able to survive

stomach acid.

May 14, 2008

--- In , " gdawson6 " <gdawson6@...>

wrote:

<<they mentioned the stomach with food in it was only like ph 2.5 to 4

and that doesn't seem way to acidic to me. >>

No it isn't. We don't digest food like catnivores that have very strong

stomach acid and do a lot of the work there. Their stomach acid will

dissolve bone quite easily. I feed my miniscule yorkie raw meat and

bones, and its amazing to see a chicken thigh go into the front end and

a little owl pellet emerge at the back lol!

Primates start the process by " pre-degesting " in the mouth as we chew,

then into the stomach for a further breakdown, then into all those yards

and yards of intestine that finish off the job. Its more of a classical

assembly line (or dis-assembly line I suppose!).

Each area is very specific in how food is broken down at that stage - if

you are diabetic, you know more about all this stuff than you ever

thought that you would - but its fascinating and quite wonderful.

regards from edella, who tries to be careful to chew thoroughly and east

slowly (which will help mend a lot of food problems on its own).

May 14, 2008

>

> <<they mentioned the stomach with food in it was only like ph 2.5 to 4

> and that doesn't seem way to acidic to me. >>

>

> No it isn't. We don't digest food like catnivores that have very strong

> stomach acid and do a lot of the work there. Their stomach acid will

> dissolve bone quite easily.

This is not actually true. From the studies I've seen the pH of the stomach

during digestion is approximately the same for both humans and dogs -

roughly 2.0. It's often higher when no food is present. IF dogs indeed

digest bone better than humans (which I haven't seen evidence of) it may be

because food stays in their stomach longer. According to Steve Brown in " See

Spot Live Longer " food can stay in a dog's stomach up to 8 hours. That's a

very long time for it to be in an acid bath even if the pH is the same as in

a human's stomach.

Suze

May 14, 2008

On 5/14/08, Suze Fisher <suzefisher@...> wrote:

> This is not actually true. From the studies I've seen the pH of the stomach

> during digestion is approximately the same for both humans and dogs -

> roughly 2.0. It's often higher when no food is present. IF dogs indeed

> digest bone better than humans (which I haven't seen evidence of) it may be

> because food stays in their stomach longer. According to Steve Brown in " See

> Spot Live Longer " food can stay in a dog's stomach up to 8 hours. That's a

> very long time for it to be in an acid bath even if the pH is the same as in

> a human's stomach.

This is more in agreement with what I have read, although the stomach

actually has different regions with different pH's. But trypsin's

ideal pH is 2.0 I believe -- don't think it would work very well at

4.5. I seem to recall, though, that the stomach can also go below

this in pH.

Chris

May 14, 2008

Lana,

> Most foods spend at least 15 minutes in the stomach - except water that

> passes right through.

I'm not sure this is true. I recently went to a lecture by a guy who

was an expert on sodium and water balance, and he said that there is a

finite gastric emptying speed for water and that for this reason

heavily sweating athletes cannot keep up with sweat loss no matter how

much they drink. If you drink beyond the emptying capacity you just

get bloated I guess.

Chris

May 14, 2008

>According to Steve Brown in " See Spot Live Longer "

> food can stay in a dog's stomach up to 8 hours

Isn't that for grain-based kibbles? Is it the same figure for BARF (bones and

raw food)?

Kathy

---- Suze Fisher <suzefisher@...> wrote:

=============

>

> <<they mentioned the stomach with food in it was only like ph 2.5 to 4

> and that doesn't seem way to acidic to me. >>

>

> No it isn't. We don't digest food like catnivores that have very strong

> stomach acid and do a lot of the work there. Their stomach acid will

> dissolve bone quite easily.

This is not actually true. From the studies I've seen the pH of the stomach

during digestion is approximately the same for both humans and dogs -

roughly 2.0. It's often higher when no food is present. IF dogs indeed

digest bone better than humans (which I haven't seen evidence of) it may be

because food stays in their stomach longer. According to Steve Brown in " See

Spot Live Longer " food can stay in a dog's stomach up to 8 hours. That's a

very long time for it to be in an acid bath even if the pH is the same as in

a human's stomach.

Suze

May 14, 2008

I don't think is true either. I've heard multiple things that disagree with

this, like don't drink water with your meal because it dilutes your digestive

acids, and to sloe weight, drink a glass of water 30 minutes before your meal so

you won't feel as full. But, by 30 minutes the digestive acids will start to

build up again.

Kathy

---- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

=============

Lana,

> Most foods spend at least 15 minutes in the stomach - except water that

> passes right through.

I'm not sure this is true. I recently went to a lecture by a guy who

was an expert on sodium and water balance, and he said that there is a

finite gastric emptying speed for water and that for this reason

heavily sweating athletes cannot keep up with sweat loss no matter how

much they drink. If you drink beyond the emptying capacity you just

get bloated I guess.

Chris

------------------------------------

May 14, 2008

Interesting! I wonder how much fluid and what period of time he's talking

about? I also wonder how well this pertains to someone who hasn't been

heavily exercising. During exercise, blood moves to other parts of your

body and the stomach gets put on hold so it would make sense that it takes

longer to empty the stomach after exercise.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> I'm not sure this is true. I recently went to a lecture by a guy who

> was an expert on sodium and water balance, and he said that there is a

> finite gastric emptying speed for water and that for this reason

> heavily sweating athletes cannot keep up with sweat loss no matter how

> much they drink. If you drink beyond the emptying capacity you just

> get bloated I guess.

>

> Chris

>

May 14, 2008

> >According to Steve Brown in " See Spot Live Longer "

> > food can stay in a dog's stomach up to 8 hours

>

> Isn't that for grain-based kibbles? Is it the same figure for BARF (bones

and raw

> food)?

He didn't specify. He just wrote that food stays in their stomach from 4 to

8 hours compared to about 30+ mins in the human stomach. Both his citations

seem to be related to human transit time for this statement.

Suze

May 14, 2008

Lana,

> Interesting! I wonder how much fluid and what period of time he's talking

> about? I also wonder how well this pertains to someone who hasn't been

> heavily exercising. During exercise, blood moves to other parts of your

> body and the stomach gets put on hold so it would make sense that it takes

> longer to empty the stomach after exercise.

I'm not sure if I have it in my notes or if I still have the notes

(I'll look later) but I think he cited the limit as somewhere around

1.5 L/hour. Some things might get put on hold in the stomach, like

digestive secretions, but that doesn't necessarily mean the sphincter

rate changes. I think what you may have been referring to might have

been that food must take time to be ground into semi-liquid before it

can exit the sphincter, whereas water is ready immediately. However,

the sphincter still opens and closes and only lets something like 3 mL

through per opening, so the actual exit time is limited by that when

it isn't extended by the need for liquifying. That's my guess.

Chris

May 14, 2008

1.5L/hr is a LOT!! I have read the kidneys are only capable of processing

approximately 1 cup of water an hour, but that is in the instance of normal

fluid loss so that probably changes with heavy sweating. No wonder athletes

can give themselves hyponatremia when attemping to offset fluid loss!

Yes, it does have to do with the liquification - different foods take longer

to be broken down enough to be washed out of the stomach by the stomach

acid. Clear fluids are the quickest at exiting the stomach, followed by

opaque fluids (like milk) and then (in order) fruits, veggies, low fat fish,

grains, legumes, chicken, beef. Liquification for most foods is a byproduct

of acid secretion, unless another form of fluids are supplied with the

meal. It is also changed by particle size, which is dictated by chewing.

I honestly hadn't expected anyone to be consuming liters of water in that

short of a period. I usually use about 2 ounces of water to deliver

probiotics to an empty stomach.

-Lana

I'm not sure if I have it in my notes or if I still have the notes

> (I'll look later) but I think he cited the limit as somewhere around

> 1.5 L/hour. Some things might get put on hold in the stomach, like

> digestive secretions, but that doesn't necessarily mean the sphincter

> rate changes. I think what you may have been referring to might have

> been that food must take time to be ground into semi-liquid before it

> can exit the sphincter, whereas water is ready immediately. However,

> the sphincter still opens and closes and only lets something like 3 mL

> through per opening, so the actual exit time is limited by that when

> it isn't extended by the need for liquifying. That's my guess.

>

> Chris

>

May 14, 2008

During a meal in which one eats to their capacity: Most people imagine that

the stomach is a tub of both acid and food that mixes up and sits until

digested. But in reality, it is more like a block of food that acid

secreted from the top of the stomach is slowly mashed into the food and then

washes away/squirts out whatever has liquified. When water or other low

acidity fluids are consumed, it interferes with the washing effect of acid

because it travels around the food along the same path as the acid does and

counteracts some of the acid's progress.

Fullness is triggered by the exit of acid into the duodenum which triggers

CCK release. When people have low stomach acid, they don't register

fullness. By consuming water before a meal, you wash the acid out of your

stomach which results in the PH starting higher at the beginning of the

meal, and therefore it takes longer to reach the level of acid necessary to

trigger CCK release. In the instance of low stomach acid, consuming water

before a meal may actually prevent you from feeling full for quite some

time. While this may seem good at first, CCK is also responsible for

triggering enzyme and bile secretion so slowing CCK from being released is

likely to result in inadequate digestion.

This of course is a bit different than snacking on small amounts of food,

where the acid normally present in the stomach is typically enough to

dissolve the food as long as the food particles are small. The most

complete digestion is attained by consuming small meals, or consuming large

meals over a long period of time. Which all goes in line with the problem

that our society eats too fast and chews too little.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Kathy Dickson <kathy.dickson@...> wrote:

>

> I don't think is true either. I've heard multiple things that disagree with

> this, like don't drink water with your meal because it dilutes your

> digestive acids, and to sloe weight, drink a glass of water 30 minutes

> before your meal so you won't feel as full. But, by 30 minutes the digestive

> acids will start to build up again.

>

> Kathy

May 14, 2008

In this passage I'm talking about sips of water - not chugging glasses

worth. (I forget some people tend to drink large amounts of fluid with

meals) Consuming large amounts of water in a short time would fall into the

sphincter limitation that pointed out, making a cushion of water

underneath the food and effectively pausing digestion until the sphincter

could empty the stomach of the excess fluids. The water is still emptied

first since it is the most liquid substance in the stomach. So in this

instance you could say that the water is diluting the stomach acid, because

it is preventing the wash through effect.

-Lana

On 5/14/08, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

>

> When water or other low acidity fluids are consumed, it interferes with the

> washing effect of acid because it travels around the food along the same

> path as the acid does and counteracts some of the acid's progress.

>

May 14, 2008

Lana,

Your comment is very much in line with natural hygiene, & native nutrition.

Thanks for sharing.

Best Always, Jim

Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

During a meal in which one eats to their capacity: Most people imagine

that