Re: PA Farmer arrested for selling raw milk

[Guest guest]

>

> IMO, best not to trust

> any direct provider, but rather reputable third party certifiers (or

> take their chances if so inclined)

>

So you do believe in some sort of process a farm would have to go through to

sell raw milk? Just as long as it is not government operated, am I

understanding you correctly?

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> > IMO, best not to trust

> > any direct provider, but rather reputable third party certifiers (or

> > take their chances if so inclined)

> >

>

> So you do believe in some sort of process a farm would have to go through to

> sell raw milk? Just as long as it is not government operated, am I

> understanding you correctly?

I don't believe a farm should *have* to go through anything. In a

market unhampered by the gov't permitting process (which is subject to

and made up of all kind of things that have nothing to do with safety)

it will probably be in the best economic interest of the farm to have

independent certification, but that doesn't mean they must have

independent certification.

The only way they would *have* to go through anything to sell raw milk

is if there is some entity that forces them to do such. The only

entity that has the legal right to do so is gov't. A legal monopoly on

force is what makes gov't what it is - without it it is just one more

voluntary group seeking to persuade people of the rightness of its

ways. With it, no matter the name, it is in effect civil gov't.

What people should and will demand is a reputable verifiable source as

to the purity of their milk in a market which is not obfuscated by the

gov't permitting process. Now a farm can choose *not* to do so, but

since it can't make people buy the stuff over the long haul that

probably doesn't make much economic sense if they plan on staying in

business. And someone can choose to buy from a farm that does not

certify its product, but they do so at their own risk. Even in that

case, the liability issue would still be huge for the farm, and

certification would most likely be used as a way to compete for

customers - we got it, they don't, buy from us - that kind of thing.

Here is another way to think about it. Imagine what would happen in a

gov't free milk industry if a farm even got **accused** of making

someone sick. They would be scrambling big time because people in

general would shy away from their product. We already know this to be

true in the raw milk/food industry. Lets extend this general suspicion

across the board.

I publicly made this argument about planes a few years back. While I

describe a different flight in the article, I had in the back of my

mind an Alaska Airlines plane that went down in Mexico with (at the

time) I thought my significant other on board and everyone died.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/miles1.html

I was beside myself as I had taken her to the airport and we were

fighting when she got on the plane. Now that accident did nothing to

affect Alaska's business. Why? Because the plane had met, barely,

government specifications. Well I did my own research and decided,

gov't specs or no, I was ***never*** getting on an Alaska flight

again. Of course all the airlines ramped up the specs on that

particular part after the accident and publicity but the part in

question should have never been an issue in the first place, and the

work in general, while meeting gov't standards, was far below private

market standards.

Now in a privately certified market, a plane falling from the sky and

killing everyone on board would probably do in an airline, and

rightfully so. And as a result we would see much safer planes and far

less shoddy practices because the airlines are in business to make

money, not kill people. And the only way they can do so is by

protecting both their property and the people who use their property.

That is one reason why private airlines have FAR better track record

than the quasi-governmental commercial airlines we have today

(although the gov't in the name of the war on terrorism is now heavily

encroaching on this market even though its track record is far better

than the commercial airlines).

And by the way, the massive gov't regulation of the airlines we see

today originally had nothing to do with safety, but was a way for some

of the smaller players to allow themselves to compete with the big

boys through the strong arm of gov't regulation.

Anyway, some food for thought.

--

" And true manhood is shown not in the choice of a celibate life. On

the contrary, the prize in the contest of men is won by him who has

trained himself by the discharge of the duties of husband and father

and by the supervision of a household, regardless of pleasure and

pain. It is won by him, I say, who in the midst of his solicitude for

his family, shows himself inseparable from the love of God. "

- Clement of andria

[Guest guest]

well put michael. i encourage everyone to do as bill chirdon, director of

pda's bureau of food safety and laboratory services, did and steal -- er buy

-- a copy of joel salatin's book " everything i want to do is illegal " . here

is link to article which spawned book: http://tinyurl.com/3coc3o

let's get governement out of the food business and force the issue back

where it belongs: in the hands of the consumers. the dodgy part is that the

consumers will actually have to do some thinking and use some common sense

but in the end it is *way* less expensive than the current mess and

consequent medical costs we have. at minimum, why can't one adult purchase

*any* food from another adult? why have tons 'o regulations when a simple

test of the finished product will tell you if it is acceptable for you or

not? great read and thought fodder.

i hope chirdon reads the damn book before he gives it back. might help.

oliver...

*Anyone who trades liberty for security, deserves neither liberty nor

security. - Ben lin

*

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 2:22 PM, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> ...

> I don't believe a farm should *have* to go through anything.

>

> ...

>

[Guest guest]

> well put michael. i encourage everyone to do as bill chirdon, director of

> pda's bureau of food safety and laboratory services, did and steal -- er

> buy

> -- a copy of joel salatin's book " everything i want to do is illegal " . here

> is link to article which spawned book: http://tinyurl.com/3coc3o

Oh man, this article is sooooooo good. Maddening, but really well

written and profoundly relevant. Thanks for the link! Reading this

article seriously makes me want to just give up on America and find a

better country to live in, a position I've seriously avoided all my

life so far. The bit about house design regulations is just

soul-crushing. It's like finding out the (real) American dream has

been outlawed in America!

Mike

[Guest guest]

No, not *all* raw milk is safe, but we do know *all* pasteurized milk is

unsafe. If you allow the cows live in and eat green pastures instead of

cramming them in small stalls and feeding them genetically modified soy and

corn, then the raw milk will be healthy.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...>

wrote:

> It is funny how the same crowd that accepts that breast milk from an

> unhealthy mom can be inferior can insist that *all* raw milk is perfectly

> safe. Raw milk produced in the right conditions is perfectly safe, but it

> doesn't mean all raw milk is safe. That's why there are permits - to

> assure

> that it is all produced under safe conditions. As unfortunate as it is,

> some milk really should be pasteurized. Is it really in our best interest

> to have inferior raw milk out there making people sick and giving raw milk

> a

> bad name?

>

> -Lana

>

> > The misconception that raw milk is inherently a great health risk

> > because of potentially harmful microbes is heavily ingrained in the

> > public mind.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Not all pastuerized milk is unsafe either. I stayed on a farm for two

weeks with a weston price oriented farmer who is a perfectionist when

it comes to his milk but he told me that he thinks Natural by Nature

is a good product and it is pasturized. It's not an unsafe product,

unless you have milk allergies, of course.

>

> > It is funny how the same crowd that accepts that breast milk from an

> > unhealthy mom can be inferior can insist that *all* raw milk is

perfectly

> > safe. Raw milk produced in the right conditions is perfectly safe,

but it

> > doesn't mean all raw milk is safe. That's why there are permits - to

> > assure

> > that it is all produced under safe conditions. As unfortunate as

it is,

> > some milk really should be pasteurized. Is it really in our best

interest

> > to have inferior raw milk out there making people sick and giving

raw milk

> > a

> > bad name?

> >

> > -Lana

> >

> > > The misconception that raw milk is inherently a great health risk

> > > because of potentially harmful microbes is heavily ingrained in the

> > > public mind.

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Anton

<michaelantonparker@...> wrote:

> Oh man, this article is sooooooo good. Maddening, but really well

> written and profoundly relevant. Thanks for the link! Reading this

> article seriously makes me want to just give up on America and find a

> better country to live in, a position I've seriously avoided all my

> life so far.

Well you might want to think that through more seriously. Personally,

I think its time to go.

_______

It is time -- arguably, it is past time -- for you to get your family

and your wealth safely outside the borders of the United States.

America has become a police state:

Don't Call the Cops. Ever

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/spielberg6.html

that is moving quickly toward total surveillance:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/173/story/37181.html

and, in typical American fashion, the resulting society will almost

certainly be the " the best and the biggest " tyranny in the world.

Make plans _right now_ while opportunities still exist to secure your

wealth outside of the authorities' rapacious reach because that door

of opportunity may be slammed in your face in the near future. It is

not merely that government at all levels is starving for the cash

that's dried up from property taxes and, so, will steal and confiscate

like a drunken highwayman. Many factors point to rise of the Total

State, which will grind up your freedom, your future and the lives of

those who resist.

I read about 12 news sources a day, from far-left to the Religious

Right; month by month, there is a dramatic increase in reports of

police brutality, government surveillance, crack-downs, the control of

daily life down to the minutia of which oils you may cook french

fries... And there seems to be precious little opposition to the

arrival of totalitarianism. Perhaps the flood of oppression is too

overwhelming and has caused a general paralysis; at times, that is my

reaction. But, mostly, I think people are either focused on financial

survival:

http://www.nolanchart.com/article4414.html

or they actually applaud the Total State. Even those who believe they

believe in freedom are among the applauders because they buy the

justifications being offered for the annihilation of civil liberties.

For example, consider just one of the incredible and successful

assaults on the due process and liberties of us all; in the name of

defending women and children, the campaign against sex offenders has

created a class of " untouchables " in class-free America -- people whom

the government tells where to live, how to make a living, which sites

they can e-visit, etc., etc. In the name of noble goals, the

government has erased the idea of serving out a time in jail (which

used to be called " paying your debt to society " ) and, instead,

established the idea of indefinite sentences and 'forever'

punishments.But the establishment of this caste system is just one

aspect of the wild plunge into tyranny.

What should worry you the most is that everything has occurred before

the economic collapse of the United States, which I believe will

happen in the near future. (The timing depends somewhat on when " too

many " foreign-held dollars are dumped back into America.) I expect a

severe depression to unfold over the next few years. And nothing,

nothing, nothing encourages the growth of State as much as people who

are frightened and hungry/homeless. An entire population can turn to a

leader much as children turn toward a parent...and for the same

reason: to feel safe.

If an economic depression is added to the convergence of the police

state with a total surveillance society, then I honestly don't know

what will happen. But I do know that you don't want to be there to

find out. Don't be fooled by those who say " but America has too strong

a tradition of freedom for this to happen. " Pre-Nazi Germans thought

their culture was too sophisticated and fine to allow the triumph of

barbarism. Leave.

McElroy - Monday 04 August 2008 - 09:59:56

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1794

The followup post can be found here:

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1802