Kefir

[Guest guest]

> I was looking at various websites and found one that said that some states

> don't allow yeasts in their kefir. They said Ca. was one such state and

that

> is where I live.

> That doesn't sound right to me. Has anyone heard anything about that?

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fac & group=38001-39000 &

file=38871-38874

Yup, it loks like that's what the codes say all right (see above). "

......shall be free of molds, yeasts and other fungi, and other objectionable

bacterias that may impair the quality of the product. " I've always heard

kefir here was just the same as yogurt, but thinner, so I guess that is why.

I wonder if you could get a product at a health food store, intended to use

in making kefir at home (and therefore not being sold in a dairy product),

and culture your own. Though I am not at all sure if these yeasts are

particularly needed or desirable, like the acidopholous strains are. Anyone

know? Liz G

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

> http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fac & group=38001-39000 &

> file=38871-38874

> Yup, it loks like that's what the codes say all right (see above). "

> .....shall be free of molds, yeasts and other fungi, and other objectionable

> bacterias that may impair the quality of the product. "

This implies to me that it shall be free of only those yeasts which might

impair the qualityof the product, and not all yeasts.

I should point out, however, that this law is quite extraorinary (I've just

looked up that web site), in that it permits the selling of a product called

kefir, which simply isn't kefir. Kefir can only be made from kefir grains; a

fermentation of Lactobacillus bulgaricus, Lactobacillus acidophilus, and

Lactobacillus caucasicus will not produce real kefir!

> I've always heard

> kefir here was just the same as yogurt, but thinner, so I guess that is why.

Yes - this law suggests that your " kefir " is actually a kefir-like product,

made in the same way as yoghourt is made. As far as I remember, the first two

lactobacilli listed above are actually just yoghourt bactera.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

I make my kefir at home using some " grains " I had sent to me from a guy in

Australia named Dom. he's great. He has a kefir website. Just go to

www.google.com and type in kefir. You'll see his website.

I used kefir as a starting place for dairy because the fermentation process

eliminates most of the lactose, hydrolyses the casein, and provides an

abundance of probiotics. It's just great stuff. Unfortunately, I don't

think my son is having a great time on it!

the supermarket stuff is rubbish. Forget it. Go to Dom's site. Never

eat corn syrup.

marti

[Guest guest]

The guy I'm talking about runs a b oard at www.kefir-making

i sent him $10 or something for some kefir grains. No pot. You just put

the grains in some milk and wait 24 hours. I use old pasta sauce jars.

don't spent $50 on anything.

When i get a chance I'll have a look and get the URL for you.

At the kefir list people are always sending each other grains for free.

marti

[Guest guest]

I saw Kefir in my local supermarket, but when I read the ingredients it had

corn syrup, a big no-no for my daughter. I haven't looked at my local health

food store, but it it made with more natural ingedients?

Re: Anyone with a positive stool sample WAS Re: How do

you know you...

>

> In a message dated 30/1/03 6:27:08 pm, Mum231ASD@... writes:

>

>

> > Especially when after 4 months of heavy supp with

> > Probiogold we STILL had no good flora..........

> > HTH

> >

>

> Mandi, that is TERRIBLE. Have you tried kefir? I like kefir because it

> just floods the system with good flora. But of course, requires special

> handling. You actually have to grow it. Do a google on Kefir and then

> click on Dom's site. He's lovely and will help you. I would give you

some

> of my grains but just killed half mine by accident!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I believe that a small amount of corn syrup is added to many perishable foods in

order to enhance the spoilage effect (you WILL NOT miss the smell, with corn

syrup added)...

-Liz P

Re: Anyone with a positive stool sample WAS Re: How do

you know you...

>

> In a message dated 30/1/03 6:27:08 pm, Mum231ASD@... writes:

>

>

> > Especially when after 4 months of heavy supp with

> > Probiogold we STILL had no good flora..........

> > HTH

> >

>

> Mandi, that is TERRIBLE. Have you tried kefir? I like kefir because it

> just floods the system with good flora. But of course, requires special

> handling. You actually have to grow it. Do a google on Kefir and then

> click on Dom's site. He's lovely and will help you. I would give you

some

> of my grains but just killed half mine by accident!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I went to buy some kefir and saw the same thing. But in looking at

different brands, there are some that don't have this in them. Some

also had artificial ingredients. I am not sure what makes 'real

kefir' and what doesn't. Like yogurt. Some is 'real' yogurt and some

is very enhanced dairy products that are more like a dessert than a

true yogurt.

There is a local store called European Market that has lots of

things from eastern europe....it had varieties of kefir, yogurts,

goat and sheep products, a myriad of cheeses, and many other things.

.

[Guest guest]

kefir is a biofilm. the populations are dynamic. echoli getting the

upper hand in the film is a known problem with kefir in milk. because

the yeast bacteria and viruses all exchange geentic material you can

get very rapid and substanial changes in population and

genes...................... as far as i can see biofilms in the gut

can learn to circumvent the guts innate immune resposne by perhaps

doing things like misdirecting the immune system into chasing

something else............one of the wonders of mmr must be making

some pretty good genetic code avaliable to the biofilm for

misdirecting the immune system which may be why the vitamin a therapy

is not quite as succesful as it should be.

the grains are just film of polysaccaride constructed by a yeast

bacteria and probably virus community and what exactly those

communities are can vary just like in the gut.

kefir does promote yeast growth in the gut as well as having toxic

metabolite issues and degraded food value compared to say good

quality raw goats milk. since i am doing so well on whey with its

high lactose i am getting sceptical of some of the reasoning for

these things.

i am doing a sort of pasturise with the raw goats milk now just

heating up to about 60C/140F being careful to stir and drinking when

it cools doen to 52C/125F. there was no problem with the raw milk,

its just after drinking it raw for a while i felt it was having to

dominant an effect on the stomach flora. but i know the goat farmers

and they drink thier own goats milk raw, not all goat farms will be

as good.

> In a message dated 3/15/2004 1:09:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> writes:

> Is this the kefir made out of milk or young coconut

> water? does it make a difference ?

> *******

>

> I make kefir with both milk and with water, lemons and honey but I

don't

> think it matters what the kefir grains are cultured in. They would

still be

> producing the same yeast and bacteria. (, correct me if I'm

wrong)

>

> Sharon K.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

raving disaster, took me a month to recover

i was using pasturised milk however, raw milk may be better.

the problem is kefir is a yeast + bacteria fermentation whereas

yogurt is a bacteria only fermentation, also the types in the grains

is not that well controlled

> Has anyone used Kefir for good bacteria?

>

> If so, did you have good results or bad?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jen

[Guest guest]

live grains from dom that flopped thier way through the postal system

from adelaide

probably the next step is to try grains from someone else with good

raw goats milk

i am still not that keen on them because of the yeast processing and

keeping ecoli out of the grains.

> In a message dated 6/27/2004 12:16:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> writes:

> raving disaster, took me a month to recover

> **********

>

> ,

>

> Did you make the kefir from grains or did you buy a premade

packet? We've

> been making our kefir from the actual grains with very good results

but have

> heard similar stories as yours from the packets such as the ones

sold at Body

> Ecology...

>

> Sharon K.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My DAN! wants me to try my son on another type of Kefir?

Anyways, I am waiting to hear back from him with the recipe and then

I will post it. It would be made with ground pumpkin seeds.

Have you ever heard of this?

The reason these seeds, is because my son has no problem with them.

They are simply organic dry roasted pumpkin seeds with sea salt.

We use them in ABA for reinforcers and they really are delicious.

If anyone wants to check them out they are made in B. C. Canada and

the website is www.skeetike.com - not sure if they deliver.

My son is SCD but since he gets no dairy how do we feed the

acidophilus? Not alot of nuts agree with him.

Jen

> > Has anyone used Kefir for good bacteria?

> >

> > If so, did you have good results or bad?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Jen

[Guest guest]

>>>> the problem is kefir is a yeast + bacteria fermentation whereas

> yogurt is a bacteria only fermentation,

Where does the yeast come into this? The bacteria (probiotics) are

the cultures for yogurt fermentation (and the probiotics produce

enzymes) but what about the yeast? Is this added to make kefir?

.

[Guest guest]

,

My Russian grandmother taught me to make kefir when I was a little

girl. She new all about pathogenic yeast and she told me that since

kefir has beneficial yeasts and bacteria that it does not feed yeast.

Kefir " grains " are gelatinous white or yellow clumps that look like

cauliflower. These clumps contain the yeast/bacteria complexed with

casein and polysaccharides. Once the grains ferment the milk by

incorporating their friendly probiotics you remove them with a strainer

to get the final product. Then you just use the grains in another

batch of milk.

On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, at 10:52 AM, jornmatt wrote:

> >>>> the problem is kefir is a yeast + bacteria fermentation whereas

> > yogurt is a bacteria only fermentation,

>

> Where does the yeast come into this? The bacteria (probiotics) are

> the cultures for yogurt fermentation (and the probiotics produce

> enzymes) but what about the yeast? Is this added to make kefir?

>

> .

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

[Guest guest]

if you ever see the opportunity to see a kefir grain you should. got

quite attached to mine growing them.

they are a true biofilm, held together by polysaccaride films

stitched together by some unimaginable yeast/bacteria/virus colony

the yeast and bacteria can evolve(with viral help) or switch into

ultra symbiotic modes where they all act as parts in a sohpsiticated

biochemcial factory to deliver nutrients and a matrix to support

thier different populations

> >>>> the problem is kefir is a yeast + bacteria fermentation

whereas

> > yogurt is a bacteria only fermentation,

>

> Where does the yeast come into this? The bacteria (probiotics) are

> the cultures for yogurt fermentation (and the probiotics produce

> enzymes) but what about the yeast? Is this added to make kefir?

>

> .

[Guest guest]

, Probiotics are yeast. Lactic acid bacteria that are used to

ferment yogurts are yeast bacteria. However, good yeast keeps bad

yeast like candida in check. There are also friendly strains of

candida that fight back harmful strains of candidia, some of those

are found in kefir grains. Kefir are grains that contain live

probiotic bacteria, a large variety of different kinds of good

bacteria. Kefir grains ferment what they are mixed with. You

can add kefir grains to coconut milk, I think juices, maybe

vegetables, never heard of nuts, but it probably possible.

When kefir is used to ferment milk it feeds off the lactose.

I agree with on this point, that drinking kefir milk

too often might upset your system. The villages that drink

the kefired milk, might only do so once or twice a week,

most of their daily diet is from the raw milk.

If autistic children are indeed dealing with yeast issues,

it is more likely in the upper GI, the mouth, throat,

and stomach. Just cutting the acid with some lemon juice

or sodium bicarbonate 'after meals', should change the pH

and once that has changed the yeast should die back.

That is probably what could have done to get a

better response from the kefir milk.

Now what is in the colon, might very well be an entirely

different matter, if Finegold's study of autistic children's

stool analysis is correct, I doubt there is room there

for any yeast, not with that much clostridia, most clostridia

survive in a more alkaline environment.

One way you can tell is to test the saliva and the stool

for pH levels, best to do this with the saliva before

a meal or first thing in the morning. Best, Carlton

jornmatt wrote:

>>>>>the problem is kefir is a yeast + bacteria fermentation whereas

>>

>>yogurt is a bacteria only fermentation,

>

>

> Where does the yeast come into this? The bacteria (probiotics) are

> the cultures for yogurt fermentation (and the probiotics produce

> enzymes) but what about the yeast? Is this added to make kefir?

>

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kefir has done amazing things for me and my husband.

My son needs it the most and refuses to drink it, but

you are right, fermented foods are way more powerful

than the pills, but I am forced to give my son the

chewable acidopholus because he refuses the cultured

veggies and kefir, soooo frustrating.... Juli

--- nikitasmom33 <nikitasmom33@...> wrote:

> I tried not Primal Defence but Natures Biotics. It

> is soil based

> probiotic very similar to PD but definitely does not

> contain Clorella.

> I can say that it was much-much stronger than any

> other traditional

> probiotics I had tried. I don't know which probiotic

> is stronger - PD

> or Natures Biotics, I chose the last one because I

> was warned about

> issues with chlorella.

> So if I have to choose probiotic in pills I would go

> for soil based

> one. But lately I found much better and way cheaper

> option. It is

> kefir - milk (dairy or non-dairy) fermented with

> special kefir

> grains. While probiotics in pills and daily

> antifungals could just

> keep my son'a Candida at bay, kefir eliminated it in

> 3 days. Since

> starting kefir I don't give him any probiotics

> either anti-fungals.

>

> > " The efficacy of a

> >probiotic should be based upon the ability of the

> product to " on

> >ferment " foods. If you want to test the viability

> of a probiotic

> >product, simply drop a few caplets in 2-4 ounces of

> milk and leave at

> >room temperature for 24-48 hours. If the probiotic

> is viable, the

> >milk will change to a thick yogurt-like

> consistency. This measures

> >the ability of a probiotic to produce enzymes and

> break down or pre-

> >digest food. If a probiotic cannot pass this simple

> test, do you

> >think it will be capable of doing it's job in your

> body? "

>

> How true! When making jogurt you have to sterilise

> all utensils

> because if it is contaminated with any bacteria they

> will overgrow

> friendly bacteria from starter. When making kefir

> you don't need

> sterilise anything - kefir would overcome any

> contamination. Guess it

> can really colonise intestinal tract and eliminate

> all unfriendly

> bacteria and yeasts!

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

Discover

Use to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out!

http://discover./

[Guest guest]

> My son needs it the most and refuses to drink it, but

> you are right, fermented foods are way more powerful

> than the pills, but I am forced to give my son the

> chewable acidopholus because he refuses the cultured

> veggies and kefir, soooo frustrating....

I give all supplements to my son in an egg cup (diluted with a little

of water). So when I give him kefir in the same egg cup he just drinks

it like other medicines - whithout arguing about the taste. Egg cup

contains about 15-20 ml. 3 times a day was quite enough to my son. So

you don't need to get into him full glass of kefir.

There are other ways. You could make fruit cocktail or smoothie with

kefir. Or you may add it to some sauces just before serving (without

boiling).

Hth

Galina

[Guest guest]

Sharon, could you also share with the list how kefir is made with

plain water? The same way yogurt is made? Can you use the milk-based

kefir as a starter for that?

I've also read that kefir is superior to yogurt in the sense that

the kefir bacteria colonize in the gut, whereas the good bacteria in

yogurt are transient. Any truth to that?

Beti

>

> > Message: 3

> > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:58:17 -0500

> > From: " Sharon son " <sharon@e...>

> > Subject: RE: Bad gut bacteria

> >

> > " So is there anything that anybody would know about, such as

herbals,

> > that

> > would only target the bad bacteria? "

> >

> >

> > Dear Mark,

> >

> > Oh, I do love this topic so I may give you far more than you

ever

> > wanted to

> > know but here goes...I'm incapable of answering this easily

(other

> > than just

> > typing one word " KEFIR) so I do beg your patience with me, as

there is

> > no

> > easy answer, imo, other than to say:. The best weapon against

bad

> > bacteria

> > is GOOD bacteria.

> >

> >

> >

> > Restore the good bacteria in the stomach and gut and the bad

bacteria

> > won't

> > have a chance. I could probably put it another way - we need

the

> > good AND

> > bad bacteria but we need them to be in a proper balance to one

another.

> >

> >

> >

> > The best tool I've found is kefir - real kefir that you make

yourself

> > and

> > not the Whole Foods variety. The absolutely best kefir site is:

> > http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html It isn't

a " pretty "

> > site

> > but Dom, the owner, has put in countless hours providing all

you'll

> > ever to

> > need to know about the amazing little kefir grain. He's also

active

> > on many

> > " food " groups, always willing to help. We " kefir " real

> > (unpasteurized,

> > unperverted) goat milk. Others use cow. You can also kefir

coconut

> > milk

> > and water if you have an objection to milk. Some kefir

pasteurized

> > milk

> > but I found that to be a less tasty substance.

> >

> > Kefir, when properly made, results in a thick, often effervescent

> > " yogurt " -style substance. It's closer to Greek-style yogurt

than

> > American

> > junk.

> >

> >

> >

> > My husband attributes it as saving his " life " - a little

dramatic but

> > after

> > he spent nearly a year in the bathroom with Irritable Bowel,

seemingly

> > unable to be helped by traditional doctors and meds, after a few

weeks

> > of

> > drinking several glasses of kefir, he was out of there, a free

man,

> > reacquainting himself with his family (us!). ( " Children - this

is

> > your

> > long-lost father... " )

> >

> > Kefir has made a huge difference in my son's bowel movements,

their

> > color,

> > shape, ad nauseum on the poo..In fact, we all drink it and have

noticed

> > wonderfully positive changes on everyone in the family.

> >

> >

> >

> > Kefir " grains " are available from a wide variety of sources

including

> > those

> > of us who have grains. Kefir grains reproduce fairly rapidly so

> > people are

> > always freely sharing, usually asking for shipping to be

reimbursed.

> > For

> > the most part, people shy away from making any profit from kefir

> > grains with

> > the exception of www.gemcultures.com

<http://www.gemcultures.com/>

> > who put

> > a great deal of effort into testing their kefir cultures and

are able

> > to

> > give a pretty good breakdown of what beneficial bacteria and

yeasts are

> > available.

> >

> > Scroll down this page and take a look at the possible beneficial

> > microflora

> > in kefir grains - just the " good " bacteria list alone is amazing

to

> > consider: Lb. acidophilus, Lb. brevis, Lb. casei, Lb. casei

subsp.

> > Rhamnosus, Lb. casei subsp. Pseudoplantarum, Lb., paracasei

subsp.

> > Paracasei, Lb. cellobiosus, Lb. delbrueckii subsp. Bulgaricus,

Lb.

> > delbrueckii subsp. Lactis, Lb. fructivorans, Lb. helveticus

subsp.

> > Lactis,

> > Lb. hilgardii, Lb. kefiri, Lb. kefiranofaciens, Lb. kefirgranum

sp.

> > nov*,

> > Lb. parakefir sp. nov*, Lb. lactis, Lb. plantarum

> > <http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#composition-of-

KG>

> > http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#composition-of-KG

> >

> > You'll never get this in yogurt. Kefir is by far, imo, the

absolute

> > best

> > pro-biotic you can have.

> >

> >

> >

> > Back to bacteria - a " must read " is a book by Appleton

called

> > " Lifting

> > the Curse of Louis Pasteur " which does a great job of showing

why

> > Pasteur's

> > germ theory IS a curse. has it priced at $3.50 right

now,

> > clearing

> > out inventory that has the " old " cover on it:

> > http://www.nancyappleton.com/pages/pasteur.html

> >

> >

> >

> > Pasteur stole, then perverted the work of a French scientist,

Bechamp.

> > Had

> > Bechamp's correct view of germs/bacteria, etc., survived

Pasteur's

> > political

> > manipulations, we would not be suffering as a society with good

> > bacteria

> > being destroyed in our food (pasteurization of milk, etc.) nor

would

> > our

> > society be controlled by pharmaceuticals or mainstream doctors

who have

> > little knowledge of how the human body is meant to function.

I'm

> > sound on

> > the fringe now, aren't I. I'm arriving at all this after 18

months of

> > nearly non-stop research and seeing good results in my own

family.

> >

> >

> >

> > Bechamp is a better fit for those of us willing to look

at " natural "

> > methods. Here's a good read which refutes Pasteur's idea

that " germs "

> > cause

> > the disease, thereby refuting our entire system of antibiotics

which

> > only

> > serve to destroy.

> >

> >

http://members.iinet.net.au/~dminoz/bechamp/pearson/dream_text.htm

> >

> >

> >

> > To better understand bacteria & germs - something which I'm of

the

> > view MUST

> > be understood in order to pick an approach that is going to

work: " The

> > Dream and Lie of Louis Pasteur " :

> > http://members.iinet.net.au/~dminoz/bechamp/books/dream.htm

> >

> > Yet another good article: " The Myth of Pasteurization "

> >

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/history/biographies/louis_pasteur.htm

> >

> > " The Lost History of Medicine " :

> >

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/terrain/lost_history_of_medicine.htm

> >

> >

> >

> > Targeting " bad " bacteria (by also killing off the good bacteria)

is

> > Pasteur

> > which is, imo, not the way we want to go. Targeting " good "

bacteria,

> > and

> > building up the body to increase good bacteria, without

destroying, is

> > Bechamp, is " natural " , more in line with what I think most

people are

> > trying

> > to do through supplements, etc..

> >

> >

> >

> > I truly HTH.

> >

> >

> >

> > -Sharon, NH

> > Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and

you

> > will

> > have plenty to eat.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Beti!

I turn to Dom in all things of knowledge regarding goat milk Kefir. All I

know is how well it works for our entire family (including the poodle who

looks absolutely forlorn without a nightly bowl of it) but the very

technical, I turn to Dom's site, the one I mentioned in my original post.

Here's his information on water kefir.

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir as well as

a comparison between milk and water kefir:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html#probioticeffects

My husband, who has an adventurous palette really didn't like the water

kefir - just a warning. He put it on the same taste-scale as kombucha -

rather vinegary, alcoholic-aftertaste, etc., so that's my caveat on water

kefir - not everyone will enjoy it like I adore goat milk kefir.

There's a handy picture on

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir which gives

pictures of the milk vs water kefir.

As far as your yogurt vs kefir questions, they're two completely different

beasts. I mentioned yogurt to try to demonstrate what kefir will look

like, but after that, all similarities are off. Dom has a lot of valuable

information at his site for novices which discusses the differences:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#kefirnovice Yogurt may

have one or two bacteria. Kefir? 10? 15? 20? And yes, the theory is that

kefir bacteria and yeast do colonize the gut. My DX-free daughter (anybody

have a better term than normally-developing? LOL) has had flatulence

problems (won't she love me typing that) since birth and within a few days

of drinking kefir, the " problem " is 99% gone in addition to everyone having

" normal " bathroom visits. What used to occur once a day now occurs twice -

a much healthier sign. Hope that wasn't too cryptic.

While I'm at it, his FAQ's are not to be missed:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html

You can cook/bake with kefir. I made Dom's " kefir-straightjacket pizza " -

quite good: http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir_cheese.html; we also

strain our kefir and turn it into cheese- very simple to do and it tastes

like the best of the best of the best goat cheese.

For those into chemical and nutrition contents:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-composition.htm (Like I said, Dom

has his site packed with good research, but the links I'm pasting are well

hidden and really tough to find.)

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

[ ] Re: Kefir

Sharon, could you also share with the list how kefir is made with

plain water? The same way yogurt is made? Can you use the milk-based

kefir as a starter for that?

I've also read that kefir is superior to yogurt in the sense that

the kefir bacteria colonize in the gut, whereas the good bacteria in

yogurt are transient. Any truth to that?

Beti

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all this wonderful information. We as a family eat plain

yogurt with everything and now I am little by little challenging my

son's diet with regular yogurt. But why not go with goat-milk kefir,

that sounds like a better deal to me.

BTW, Whole Foods market sells kefir in bottles if you have oine in

your area (try it as salad dressing, mmmm), but of course making

your own would be cheaper and healthier.

I really appreciate all the info below.

Beti

>

> Hi, Beti!

>

> I turn to Dom in all things of knowledge regarding goat milk

Kefir. All I

> know is how well it works for our entire family (including the

poodle who

> looks absolutely forlorn without a nightly bowl of it) but the very

> technical, I turn to Dom's site, the one I mentioned in my

original post.

> Here's his information on water kefir.

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir

as well as

> a comparison between milk and water kefir:

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html#probioticeffects

>

>

>

> My husband, who has an adventurous palette really didn't like the

water

> kefir - just a warning. He put it on the same taste-scale as

kombucha -

> rather vinegary, alcoholic-aftertaste, etc., so that's my caveat

on water

> kefir - not everyone will enjoy it like I adore goat milk kefir.

>

>

>

> There's a handy picture on

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir

which gives

> pictures of the milk vs water kefir.

>

>

>

> As far as your yogurt vs kefir questions, they're two completely

different

> beasts. I mentioned yogurt to try to demonstrate what kefir

will look

> like, but after that, all similarities are off. Dom has a lot of

valuable

> information at his site for novices which discusses the

differences:

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#kefirnovice

Yogurt may

> have one or two bacteria. Kefir? 10? 15? 20? And yes, the

theory is that

> kefir bacteria and yeast do colonize the gut. My DX-free daughter

(anybody

> have a better term than normally-developing? LOL) has had

flatulence

> problems (won't she love me typing that) since birth and within a

few days

> of drinking kefir, the " problem " is 99% gone in addition to

everyone having

> " normal " bathroom visits. What used to occur once a day now

occurs twice -

> a much healthier sign. Hope that wasn't too cryptic.

>

>

>

> While I'm at it, his FAQ's are not to be missed:

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html

>

>

>

> You can cook/bake with kefir. I made Dom's " kefir-straightjacket

pizza " -

> quite good: http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir_cheese.html;

we also

> strain our kefir and turn it into cheese- very simple to do and it

tastes

> like the best of the best of the best goat cheese.

>

>

>

> For those into chemical and nutrition contents:

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-composition.htm (Like I

said, Dom

> has his site packed with good research, but the links I'm pasting

are well

> hidden and really tough to find.)

>

>

>

> -Sharon, NH

> Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and

you will

> have plenty to eat.

>

>

>

> [ ] Re: Kefir

>

>

>

> Sharon, could you also share with the list how kefir is made with

> plain water? The same way yogurt is made? Can you use the milk-

based

> kefir as a starter for that?

> I've also read that kefir is superior to yogurt in the sense that

> the kefir bacteria colonize in the gut, whereas the good bacteria

in

> yogurt are transient. Any truth to that?

>

> Beti

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Beti,

Rushing out the door to take daughter to choir but AVOID ALL STORE KEFIR,

please. I don't have research handy, but Dom addesses the incidents of

shingles and a number of other illnesess from store-bought ready-made

kefir. Again, I don't have his site or other research handy to say why,

but I do know from studying this that homemade kefir does NOT have the same

issues. I'm so glad you brought this up!!!! And you're so very welcome.

Anything to help our children! Also, avoid all yogurt that is not plain,

whole-milk. All other yogurt (flavored stuff) or low-fat is HOMOGENIZED.

This is especially unhealthy for anyone with gut issues. Homogenization

breaks the fats down into bits 500 times smaller, allowing it to get through

intestinal walls, into bloodstream causing an " opiate " effect..my son had

this and it was nasty, nasty, wicked.

All the best to you!

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

[ ] Re: Kefir

Thanks for all this wonderful information. We as a family eat plain

yogurt with everything and now I am little by little challenging my

son's diet with regular yogurt. But why not go with goat-milk kefir,

that sounds like a better deal to me.

BTW, Whole Foods market sells kefir in bottles if you have oine in

your area (try it as salad dressing, mmmm), but of course making

your own would be cheaper and healthier.

I really appreciate all the info below.

Beti

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

Would goat yogurt be okay, since goat milk is not homogenized (it

naturally comes that way)?

>

> Beti,

>

> Rushing out the door to take daughter to choir but AVOID ALL STORE

KEFIR,

> please. I don't have research handy, but Dom addesses the

incidents of

> shingles and a number of other illnesess from store-bought ready-

made

> kefir. Again, I don't have his site or other research handy to

say why,

> but I do know from studying this that homemade kefir does NOT have

the same

> issues. I'm so glad you brought this up!!!! And you're so very

welcome.

> Anything to help our children! Also, avoid all yogurt that is not

plain,

> whole-milk. All other yogurt (flavored stuff) or low-fat is

HOMOGENIZED.

> This is especially unhealthy for anyone with gut issues.

Homogenization

> breaks the fats down into bits 500 times smaller, allowing it to

get through

> intestinal walls, into bloodstream causing an " opiate " effect..my

son had

> this and it was nasty, nasty, wicked.

>

>

>

> All the best to you!

>

>

>

> -Sharon, NH

> Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you

will

> have plenty to eat.

>

> [ ] Re: Kefir

>

>

>

> Thanks for all this wonderful information. We as a family eat plain

> yogurt with everything and now I am little by little challenging my

> son's diet with regular yogurt. But why not go with goat-milk

kefir,

> that sounds like a better deal to me.

> BTW, Whole Foods market sells kefir in bottles if you have oine in

> your area (try it as salad dressing, mmmm), but of course making

> your own would be cheaper and healthier.

> I really appreciate all the info below.

> Beti

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I think kefir and yogurt are great my son also drinks whole raw milk with good

results. Unfortunately he won't drink kefir, but he does eat Stoneyfield Farms

Yo Baby yogurt. It is flavored, organic, whole milk, that is not homogenized. I

agree with you homomgenized and low-fat=BAD. But I think that product is great!

Let me know if you have differing info.

-Krissy

[ ] Re: Kefir

Thanks for all this wonderful information. We as a family eat plain

yogurt with everything and now I am little by little challenging my

son's diet with regular yogurt. But why not go with goat-milk kefir,

that sounds like a better deal to me.

BTW, Whole Foods market sells kefir in bottles if you have oine in

your area (try it as salad dressing, mmmm), but of course making

your own would be cheaper and healthier.

I really appreciate all the info below.

Beti

[Guest guest]

Goat yogurt would be fine, but I'd have to assume it is made from

pasteurized goat milk which makes it " not fine " in my book. I want all the

good bacteria that it puts in my system. Pasteurization kills all that.

Also, goat yogurt and goat kefir are two totally different animals. So to

speak. :-) Some of the links I put in earlier posts give great information

on this. HTH

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

[ ] Re: Kefir

Sharon,

Would goat yogurt be okay, since goat milk is not homogenized (it

naturally comes that way)?

[Guest guest]

>I think kefir and yogurt are great my son also drinks whole raw milk with

good results.

>Unfortunately he won't drink kefir, but he does eat Stoneyfield Farms Yo

Baby yogurt.

>It is flavored, organic, whole milk, that is not homogenized. I agree with

you

>homomgenized and low-fat=BAD. But I think that product is great! Let me

know if

>you have differing info. "

Krissy..

I do have differing ideas. As one Mom to another, I'm going to give you a

very long answer, because I know how hard we all work at wanting the very

best for our children. I've found it frustrating to think I was doing the

best, only to find a good amount of time later, there may have been other

options. I'll lay out my thinking process in the hopes you'll glean from it

whatever you feel is important for your situation, arriving at what works

best for you.

When you open the Yo Baby yogurt (it's been awhile since I have used it) do

you see the whey (clear liquid) floating on the top? I don't remember

having to shake the Yo Baby in order to incorporate the ingredients back

together. That's the real test as to whether or not the product is

homogenized. It's my understanding that ALL FLAVORED YOGURT is homogenized

in order to maintain the smoothy, creamy consistent texture. Another way

to check is to visit the Stonyfield site to see what they say about their

products:

From the Stonyfield Farm FAQs:

" Question: Is all milk used to make Stonyfield Farm yogurt homogenized?

Answer: Yes, with the exception of our whole milk yogurts with cream on

top. When

milk is not homogenized, the cream rises to the top, just as it used to in

old-fashioned milk bottles. http://www.stonyfield.com/Wellness/Faqs.cfm "

So yes, because Stonyfield believes that people are grossed out by cream and

whey floating to the top, and that people don't like to mix it back into the

yogurt, they've taken the step of homogenizing all yogurt including your Yo

Baby just to make sure you little one gets a nice early start on arterial

sclerosis and heart disease.

Yogurt does NOT have to be labeled " homogenized " BY LAW, which I find to be

deceitful.

When I was researching this last March, I wrote a Yogurt Rant to a food

list. Here's an excerpt:

" Here's an interesting excerpt speaking as to why they homogenized dairy -

to spread the casein evenly:

http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/2000/0300de.html excerpt:

" Pasteurizing yogurt prior to fermentation destroys bacteria, and increases

resistance to " wheying-off. " Homogenization spreads casein evenly around fat

globules, ensuring that fat is evenly distributed in the final gel

structure. In sundae-style products, the gel formed when the casein

coagulates is not disturbed, so the product is firmer than Swiss-style,

where the gel must be broken to package the product. Either 0.5% gelatin or

modified food starch may be added to re-set the structure. "

So next time someone asks why they homogenized dairy products, you can tell

them it is for the convenience of the food processor - it helps the end

product to look like what we think it should look. Because most people are

so far removed from REAL FOOD, they'd freak if they saw real yogurt, milk,

etc., separating. "

As far as " organic " , that term is hotly debated. The standards by which

something is termed " organic " and what " organic " actually means is difficult

to clarify, much more so than even 5 years ago. I find the Stonyfield

" organic " section to be interesting. http://www.stonyfield.com/Organic/

They have lovely pictures of cows in a field, as well as close-ups of what

appear to be grass/hay in the field. Visually, it would lead one to think

romantic thoughts of cows in a pasture, munching down sweet field hay and

grass, eating what cows are meant to eat: grass. But you read farther

down their page and they make this statement in answer to a hypothetical

question, no doubt created by their marketing department:

" I understand the idea of organic fruit and vegetables, but organic milk and

yogurt? Isn't milk already pure and natural? "

Yes. Milk is an all natural product. Organic milk means that the cows' feed,

such as corn, soy, and hay, were grown organically. In addition, organic

regulations prohibit the use of antibiotics and synthetic growth hormones.

Organic regulations also mandate specific humane animal standards including

access to fresh air and pasture. All of the milk (organic and non-organic)

used to make Stonyfield Farm products is from cows that have not been

treated with rBGH (recombinant bovine growth hormone). "

Oops. Back up. What did they say??? Corn. Soy. You see, the very best

milk is produced by 100% grass-fed cows that are eating the right kind of

grasses on the right kind of soil by a farmer who understands that nutrients

from those all-important grasses are key to good health. Grass fed cows,

have 500% MORE conjugated linoleic acid in their milk vs hay or corn/soy fed

cows. The same goes for grass-fed meat, hence, my Bible verse attached to

my signature because I've become a " true believer " if you will that we can

receive all nutrition necessary for life in naturally-raised foods. Here's

a great article: http://www.realmilk.com/healthbenefits.html

Corn & soy in a cow's diet dramatically affect the cow's health AND that of

its milk. The Essential Fatty Acids are terribly perverted into an

unhealthy ratio. We require, depending on what you read, anywhere from 2:1

to 4:1 of Omega6:Omega3. When corn and soy get involved? Their ratios

are anywhere, depending on the crop and soil, from 40:1 to 60:1. The brain

needs EFA in the right ratio. In fact, the entire BODY needs EFA's in the

right ratio. You won't get that in grain-fed milk cows, grain-fed goat's,

grain-fed sheep or grain-fed cattle.

I could write a book. But for the most part, it has already been done. I

am not part of the organization, nor do I benefit in any way from the sales

of this book, but after doing my own research for nearly a year, and then

finding out that it was written down for me, I constantly recommend it as

one of the best reference books (the recipes are nothing to brag about but

they DO give you an idea of how to modify your own favorite recipes) you'll

ever find.

Then, as if the other isn't enough, there's the Inulin issue. Stonyfield is

big on Inulin. Bottom line? They used Inulin as a thickening agent LONG

BEFORE they hyped it as " healthy " . Why the marketing hype? Because it is

really as wonderful as their marketing says? No! They didn't want to lose

it as a thickening agent, but the government, recognizing that there were

side effects from Inulin, changed labeling laws so that Stonyfield HAD to

disclose this ingredients. I wrote another long rant about this which you

can access at www.onibasu.com <http://www.onibasu.com/> It's message

#5065. It's well worth wading through. I no longer eat any PROCESSED

foods with Inulin or FOS additives. Inulin occurs naturally in quite a few

foods. Here's a fairly technical article about naturally-occurring Inulin

in the American diet and how much we consume:

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/7/1407S

Here's one of many articles anti-Inulin speaking to the allergies it can

trigger: http://allergies.about.com/cs/inulin/a/aa051500a.htm

..HTH.

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.