Re: Anyone reading Survival of the Sickest?/methylation and genes

[Guest guest]

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> Suze, here's a list of foods high in folate (g/100g):

>

> 691 Turkey, liver, all classes, cooked, simmered

> 578 Chicken, liver, all classes, cooked, simmered

> 307 Spices, rosemary, dried

> 281 Wheat germ, crude

> 274 Spices, oregano, dried

> 253 Beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, cooked, braised

> 240 Peanuts, all types, raw

> 237 Seeds, sunflower seed kernels, dry roasted

> 194 Spinach, raw

> 181 Lentils, mature seeds, cooked, boiled

> 172 Beans, pinto, mature seeds, cooked, boiled

> 146 Egg, yolk, raw, fresh

> 140 Beans, navy, mature seeds, cooked, boiled, with salt

> 135 Asparagus, frozen, cooked, boiled, drained, without salt

> 121 Spinach, frozen, chopped or leaf, cooked, boiled, drained

> 115 Seeds, sesame seed kernels, dried (decorticated)

> 108 Broccoli, cooked, boiled, drained

> 106 Beans, navy, mature seeds, sprouted, cooked, boiled, drained

> 106 Spices, pepper, red or cayenne

> 98 Nuts, walnuts, english unroasted

> 92 Peanut butter, chunk style, without salt

> 81 Avocados, raw, all commercial varieties

> 81 Beans, white, mature seeds, cooked, boiled

> 80 Beets, cooked, boiled, drained

> 71 Broccoli, flower clusters, raw

> 69 Nuts, cashew nuts, dry roasted

> 66 Cabbage, chinese (pak-choi), raw

> 65 Beans, white, mature seeds, canned

> 65 Bread, wheat

> 62 Beans, navy, mature seeds, canned

> 60 Beans, pinto, mature seeds, canned

> 60 Brussels sprouts, cooked, boiled, drained

> 59 Peas, green, frozen, cooked, boiled, drained

> 57 Cauliflower, raw

> 56 Broccoli, frozen, chopped, cooked, boiled, drained

> 50 Bread, whole-wheat, commercially prepared

Ooops, I just realized that's mcg folate per 100 g!

After talking about tryptophan and glutamic acid I had g/100g stuck in

my brain

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Now MTHFR looks like the abbreviation for a curse to me

> But what do I know? And I thought MAO-A was that despicable ruler of

> communist China a while back who was responsible for the deaths of

> millions?

LOL! Thanks .

But seriously, I have noticed that tryptophan is in most foods, but in

> relatively small quantities compared to glutamic acid. Here are some

> foods high in tryptophan in g per 100 g:

Do you have one of these nifty charts for B3/Niacin?

Thanks!

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Hi Emma,

I'm curious where your blog is -- you've mentioned it a few times, but I

haven't found the link yet. Can you send it? Thanks! -Jent

--- Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

> Sorry Lana, I wasn't even taking those supplements. I don't take

> artificial supplements. I know why I came close to seizing and I

> already have a full explanation in my blog archives.

" The greater part of what my neighbors call good, I believe in my soul to be

bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What

demon possessed me that I behaved so well? " -Henry Thoreau

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[Guest guest]

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> It's interesting that beef liver is at the top of the list.

I have an allergy to beef (and dairy) -- get itchy and snuffley and brain

fogged (don't have my lab sheet here to remember if its IgE or what). I've not

normally eating organ meats (I'm working in chicken liver and hearts), but

does anyone know if the same allergy response occurs from organ meats as it

does from muscle meats? I'm assuming yes, but maybe not?

Jent

" The greater part of what my neighbors call good, I believe in my soul to be

bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What

demon possessed me that I behaved so well? " -Henry Thoreau

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Autos new Car Finder

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[Guest guest]

--- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Do you have one of these nifty charts for B3/Niacin?

Lana, wikipedia has a chart showing how tryptophan is converted into

niacin. Is that what you are refering to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin

[Guest guest]

Yes... This is what I've dug up from my notes:

More detailed diagram of this conversion here:

http://www.biochemj.org/bj/326/0351/bj3260351f01.gif

-----

Tryptophan Pyrrolase/Tryptophan dioxygenase are the same enzyme, it is

represented by " b " on the diagram above.

" reduced cortisol levels will lessen the activity of liver pyrrolase, the

enzyme that degrades tryptophan. " (

http://www.smart-drugs.net/ias-tryptophan-article.htm) and high cortisol

stimulates the enzyme - so people who are hypoadrenal will under-convert

tryptophan to niacin and hyperadrenal will over-convert.

" In the present work it was observed that the concentration of tryptophan in

the liver increased twofold at 15min after the injection of a dose of

salicylate, that subsequently induced the liver tryptophan pyrrolase (Fig.

1). " (http://www.biochemj.org/bj/123/0171/1230171.pdf) - dose was 400mg/kg

body weight.

----

Kynurenine mono-oxygenase aka Kynurenine hydroxylase is represented in the

above figure as " e " .

Tryptophan->niacin conversion can get stuck in the kynurenine stage and can

result in tics - a common symptom in autism. (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenine)

" The synthesis<http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/glossary.html#synthesis>of

the niacin-containing coenzymes, NAD and NADP, from the amino

acid <http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/glossary.html#amino%20acids>,

tryptophan, requires the FAD-dependent enzyme, *kynurenine mono-oxygenase*.

Severe riboflavin deficiency can decrease the conversion of tryptophan to

NAD and NADP, increasing the risk of niacin deficiency " (1-3)

Which brings us back to the cascade riboflavin deficiency I described in a

previous post, which can be caused by liver toxins, including azo dyes which

are practically pure salicylate (and as a result have far, far higher levels

of salicylate than any natural food could possibly contain in any reasonably

edible amount):

" However, riboflavin deficiency increased the tumourogenesis due to certain

chemical carcinogens like azo dyes. This may be in part due to diminished

activity of FAD dependent microsomal enzymes that inactivate azo dyes. *Azo

dyes* in turn have been reported to reduce the hepatic levels of FAD in host

animals56. "

-Lana

P.S. I just want to make sure my stance regarding salicylates here is

clear: I don't believe natural food salicylates are bad. On the other hand,

I avoid aspirin, NSAIDs, dyes, etc like the plague. They are just in too

high concentration for the liver to handle at one time, especially during B2

deficiency/conversion issues. I honestly believe one of the main reasons I

developed salicylate issues in the first place was the NSAIDS my doctor had

me taking for monthly cramping for several years and after they stopped

working a friend suggested Doan's (Magnesium salicylate) which I tried for a

few cycles but discovered it severely messed up my timing (went from 28 days

to barely 7 days - that was a nightmare!). Anyway, the cramps turned out to

be a B1 and Mg deficiency from my mercury poisoning, and have since been

completely repaired.

On 9/10/07, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

> --- Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> > Do you have one of these nifty charts for B3/Niacin?

>

> Lana, wikipedia has a chart showing how tryptophan is converted into

> niacin. Is that what you are refering to?

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niacin

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it was in megadoses, thanks for catching that (I apologize, my brain

is full of mercury, sometimes I don't get everything out onto 'paper'). The

links I have arn't actual studies, they are mostly side-effect lists -

here's one: " In lab testing, large doses produced kidney damage. "

(http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/vitamins/bfolacin.htm

) I'd love to find the actual studies and the actual amounts but I've got

enough on my plate right now so if anyone comes across them - would you be

kind enough to forward them to me?

My main concern is the assimilation limit. If someone is taking the upper

limit of folic acid (1 mg/day), and they can only absorb at best 400

mcg/day, that leaves 600 mcg in the blood. If they dose 1 mg the next day,

we're looking at a total of 1200 mcg in blood - and so on. Now if that

wasn't bad enough - the body actually *downregulates* the DHFR enzyme during

folate deficiency making this conversion *even less* effective than the

average 200-400 mcg/day. (link below) This makes the folic acid levels in

blood build up even more, increasing the risk of toxicity. My take on it is

'why bother' if you can get your folate from food?

The bacteria in your gut should produce a small amount of folic acid daily

for you, which supports other bacteria in the gut (who need B vitamins to do

their jobs and will recycle that folic acid into usable folate for you). I

think this is part of the reason why humans can only absorb 200-400 mcg

folic acid per day - it was never meant to be used as the main source of

folate. Another concern of mine is that larger doses of folic acid may be

able to kill off certain bacteria in your intestines (the folic acid

producers) and support others (which would normally be in balance with the

folic acid produers). Folate producers (that I have identified to date)

include: S. thermophilus (yogurt), S. cervisae (bread - you don't want this

one growing in your intestines), B. lactis (formerly B. infantis) and Lc.

lactis (veggie ferments - BED sells a starter that includes this) - there

are one or two more, but these are the ones that produce the highest

amounts. So there's no need to waste money on commercial bacteria

synthesized folic acid when you can get it from ferments/probiotics.

-Lana

---

Folic acid absorbtion limits:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7433/211 (Great article, worth

reading the whole thing.)

More tidbits:

" In folate-deficient chickens the activity of dihydrofolate reductase was

decreased "

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus & db=pubmed & cmd=\

Retrieve & dopt=abstractplus & list_uids=7067401)

- I have this data several other spots, but the chicken study is by far the

most comprehensive.

Lana,

>

> Can you direct me to primary research on folic acid damaging the kidneys?

> Was it mega doses? Also, there is commericially available folic acid made

> by

> bacterial synthesis, FWIW.

>

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Emma,

Kwashikor is a general protein deficiency. We're talking about specific

amino acids here. You can get enough protein without getting enough of a

specific amino acid or two.

If tryptophan deficiencies don't occur in first world countries, how is it

so many people are depressed/on SSRIs and other medications that preserve

what little serotonin they have?

-Lana

Since I am not starving to death of kwashiorkor in an third world

> country, I can be pretty certain that amino acid deficiencies are not

> my problem. A plausible theory is not the same as a likely theory.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> This extremely narrow focus on vitamins is causing you to

> misunderstand food chemical effects and metabolism and create a false

> system in your head for what you think is happening in the body.

Well then, I must be imagining my near-complete recovery which was based on

this " extremely narrow focus " .

I must be imagining the lack of reactions to salicylates and amines. I must

also be imagining the idea that I'm not angry, upset or otherwise outwardly

offended that you seem to think everyone with food intolerance is

genetically defective. (I tend to think mutations occur to benefit a

species, not destroy it.) I'm also not flipping out at your attitude about

how I must be the only person on the face of this planet who has an amino

acid or vitamin deficiency, despite the terrible diets most people eat. Or

your references to things like kwashikor and third world countries as if

that's the only way someone could be short on an amino acid or two.

All of those things I would have done 6 months ago (and maybe had a meltdown

to boot). The fact is, I've gotten a lot better. Whereas you say you are

in the same tender balance you were in before - perhaps worse since you

stopped the ketogenic diet. So maybe you do understand more about what is

happening - but perhaps your insistance that these things are rarely

nutritional has actually blinded you in some ways.

Not all salicylates are equal - you yourself have pointed out that the

amounts are drastically different. I honestly think the isolation and

potentiation of these compounds without concern for their negative effects

is what is causing the issue - not the compounds themselves. After all,

even water can kill you if you get too much of it. Does this mean I should

never drink water? Certainly not!!

As for cyanide - it is supposed to be detoxed by B12. So yeah, if you're

B12 deficient (genetically or just nutritionally), you would get cyanide

toxicity sooner than someone who had adequate B12. A lot of our differences

relate to diet just as well as they relate to genetics. I honestly think

we're both right in many ways, as for specifically which - I don't think

we'll know anytime soon.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

But if aspirin prevents absorbtion of vitamin K, then it is a drug that

causes a vitamin deficiency, isn't it?

the ever confused,

d

[Guest guest]

On 9/5/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> So TMG does two things and DMG does one -- sounds like TMG is better

> > to me. More nutrition. Like getting extra folate, no?

> No, it doesn't result in any extra folate - just unused methylated folate

> which isn't necessarily good.

No I didn't mean that it actually resulted in an increased quantity of

folate -- I meant it was equivalent to getting more folate. It seems

like it is the norm to not have enough folate rather than to have too

much, and getting more boosts homocysteine converstion to methionine;

getting more betaine does that too, so getting more betaine is like

getting more folate.

I don't know if getting more folate results in more unused methylated

folate and whether that results in any harm, but I think the assertion

needs to be justified by experimental evidence or at least some more

detailed anaylsis of what regulates the methylation of folate or

something, rather than just assuming from the charts that anything

that doesn't get used at a maximal rate will just start getting backed

up.

> I stated preference for DMG specifically in terms of which to use to help

> restart the folate cycle. Protection from osmotic stress, while useful,

> doesn't really have anything to do with restarting the folate cycle AFAIK.

The preference is to give osmotic protection the priority, so I guess

the relation would be that if you fulfill the betaine requirement for

that purpose, more is left over for the methylation cycle.

> I don't really get your reasoning about " usurping. " It doesn't usurp

> > anything because it is used for that function by a totally different

> > enzyme. It also appears to only perform this function in the liver

> > and kidneys, where it is needed for other things. Finally, why do you

> > say " usurp " instead of " spare. " If you say it " spares " folate, so

> > you need less of it, it sounds much better. Why would I want to

> > increase my need for folate?

> I don't see where you're getting " increase the need for folate " - I'm

> talking about upregulating the folate cycle but that should not increase the

> need for folate unless you have a MTHFR disorder (which reduces recycling

> capabilities) or you have a true folate deficiency (which should be fixed

> anyway).

The way I was thinking about it was that if you get less betaine, you

need more folate.

> Most of what folate does in the body requires it to continue cycling through

> the various forms of folate. I use usurp because there is a limited amount

> of homocysteine waiting to be methylated and in order for you to use the

> folate you have (to keep it circulating through the different types of

> folate), homocysteine should be methylated by folate whenever folate is

> available. Think of it like gears - the folate cycle can only move as fast

> as the homocysteine/methionine (methylation) cycle allows it to.

I agree in terms of the basic theory, but what proportion of people

actually suffer from homocysteine deficiency? Usually folate trapping

is attributed to cobalamin deficiency. I guess it is possible for

betaine to result in folate trapping. However, I would think that if

this is true, there should be animal experiments showing that high

doses of betaine result in megaloblastic anemia.

According to the abstract of the review linked to below, 6 grams of

betaine/day in healthy volunteers with normal homocysteine

concentrations only lowers homocysteine by 20%. After methionine

loading, it lowers homocysteine by 50%. That seems to indicate that

there is some homeostasis, that homocysteine is primarily lowered by

betaine when it is most important.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=ShowDetailView & TermToSear\

ch=15720203 & ordinalpos=11 & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel\

..Pubmed_RVDocSum

Anyway, I'm sure there are high dose betaine feeding experiments out

there in animals. Do they show megaloblastic anemia or any other

indication of folate trapping?

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Theories are not facts, they may be based on facts but they are not thorough

> enough to be facts themselves. The way you present your opinion that food

> intolerance is genetic, would make one think you had more than theories to

> stand on (such as genetic test results). Since you have no proof that

> failsafers tend to have these mutations: why is it you completely dismiss

> the possibility that for at least some people, these are truly nutritional

> issues?

Theories never turn into facts no matter how much evidence (such as

genetic test results) they may accumulate. Theories, both scientific

and non-scientific, are necessary to make sense of facts and use them,

and we quite commonly use them on a day to day basis without

explicitly noting the degree of confidence with which we esteem the

theory every time we use it. Finally, proof only belongs to the a

priori sciences such as mathematics and logic. It is not a concept

proper to the empirical sciences.

That said, I think you are right that it is good to give some

indication of certainty and uncertainty when dealing with hypotheses

that do have a substantial degree of uncertainty about them.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/07, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> Could problems like hip displasia and cataracts have dietary

> influences as well? Is it possible to prevent them, or at least

> minimize them, with proper diet, or are some dogs genetically doomed?

> My suspicion is that poor diet makes these problems much worse and

> brings them out sooner.

Cataracts have a relationship to B12 deficiency.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Emma,

> If you do not have a MTHFR or DMG polymorphism Lana, you should be

> able to use artificial folic acid without any problems whatsoever,

> just like most of the population can.

I don't think there is any evidence that most of the population uses

synthetic folic acid just fine. I talked to one PhD student who was

under the impression that she was one of the only people

differentiating blood levels of folic acid from total folate, which

she had a very difficult time with, and she was finding that the rate

of people with the presence of unmetabolized folic acid in their blood

shot up through the roof after they started fortifying foods with it

in the US, and the conclusion was that it is quite common (and

probably genetically influenced but she didn't have any findings on

that yet) for people to be unable to fully utilize synthetic folic

acid in the amounts that are added to foods.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> Price wrote about many families that had healthy parents but unhealthy

> children in NAPD. It was malnutrition that caused these similarites, not

> genetics.

Price cited a bit of evidence showing that poor diet in the male prior

to conception had lasting effects on the offspring. Basically the

only way this could be mediated is genetically. Malnutrition and

genetics are not separate.

Everything within biology is genetic, in that it relates to genes in

some way or another. I think this term is constantly abused to mean

" irreversibly inheritable " or something like that.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thank you

You made some excellent points in this email. I was thinking in terms of

ideal folate consumption (NT definately supports that), but I think how you

are looking at the average consumption is probably a better idea at least

when looking at the majority of people out there.

I agree in terms of the basic theory, but what proportion of people

> actually suffer from homocysteine deficiency?

I don't know what proportion, but anyone who has an increased need for detox

has an upregulated transsulferation cycle so they would have lower

homocysteine than most since they're creating so much cysteine out of it.

This was one of the issues I encountered, and I did need a higher

cysteine:methionine ratio for a while to balance it.

Anyway, I'm sure there are high dose betaine feeding experiments out

> there in animals. Do they show megaloblastic anemia or any other

> indication of folate trapping?

>

Very good point and I will look into it.

-Lana

[Guest guest]

Likewise in this thread, Lana and Emma, please cool off the discussion

and take the personal stuff out of it. Also, please do NOT reference

any material from another list on this one, if it has not been

discussed here.

Thankyou,

(Moderator)

[Guest guest]

I just want to clarify that I was on the standard meat, grain, legume and

veggie failsafe (with added GFCF) with little to no improvement in

symptoms. Actually, after going failsafe, I developed a whole range of

symptoms, including full blown leukotriene reactions to tiny amounts of

salicylates - reactions that I had never experienced before going failsafe

and have not experienced since leaving failsafe. Just about the only thing

failsafe truly helped me with was my rediculously rapid breathing rate,

which is still completely under control since fixing my vitamin deficiencies

so I'm not sure I could even attribute that to failsafe.

I got my fillings removed with only 2 of the IOAMT reccomended percautions,

I should have insisted on the O2, but my teeth really hurt at the time (and

that is an understatement). I suggest anyone with mercury fillings who is

thinking of getting them removed should make sure *all* IOAMT precautions

are followed. The result of the improper removal was that the mercury

totally trashed my gut.

After the improper removal, I needed foods with a high cysteine:methionine

ratio to aid detox as well as foods rich in fiber and galactose, necessary

for sopping up chemicals and repairing the gut damage I had. Oat bran was

not the only thing I was eating at the time, but it was one of my bigger

sources of calories (and I did switch to whole oats after about a week of

oat bran - very appropriate considering my descent from the

irish/gaelic/celtic gene pool). My diet was also full of a variety of

high-galactose failsafe veggies as well as some milk and small amounts of

meat (due to it having a low cysteine:methionine ratio). Once I figured out

that it was indeed the cysteine that my body was insisting on with its

cravings for oats, I was able to intelligently choose some other foods to

meet that requirement, including lentils. I still needed vast amounts of

vitamin A that were unattainable on failsafe and thus I gave it up.

The fact remains that I was better off on NT, before I started failsafe.

The removal of liver and ferments hurt me more than it helped me and I spent

the entire time on failsafe trying to correct for what I lost by moving away

from NT. Trying to remain on failsafe after my body clearly wanted more

nutrient dense foods was one of the bigger mistakes I made. Failsafe is not

NT, and IMHO calling it such is misleading. I really don't think WAPF will

ever believe that liver and whole milk are evil and ferments shouldn't be

consumed - it seems completely contradictory to their cause to me.

The supplements I was on were helping me remove mercury from my body (being

glycine, taurine and a few b vitamins). Every time I removed them

(completely against my better instincts, but I was told it was the only way

I would get better) the mercury stopped flowing out of my body. Of course

that would make me more sick! It is called " redistribution " - it occurs

when toxins that were moving out of the body suddenly halt and have to find

somewhere else to reside - kind of like " musical chairs " . The supplements

weren't making me sick, it was my chronic poisoning (11 years worth of

mercury) that depleted me of the amino acids I needed to clean up my system

that was making me sick. Getting the toxins out has been integral to

rebalancing my amino acid status. The deficiency of these amino acids had

nothing to do with a poor diet and everything to do with my excessive toxin

load.

I don't eat just liver. I get a variety of all organ meats (with the

exception of a few that I am still trying to source/get recipes for) and I

tend to go for whole foods which means smaller animals in order to get the

variety of organ meats I need in realistic proportion with muscle meats.

For the most part, my cow-based food is milk. I do add in beef liver and

beef muscle meat occasionally when I need nutrients that ruminents can

accumulate in levels that other animals cannot. I am a reproductive age

female, so it is totally appropriate for me to be consuming liver regularly.

All of my information on methylation is well supported, although, if a

moderator on this list requests I stop discussing the topic, I will be happy

to.

-Lana

Okay Lana, since you're getting personal and make random unjustifiable

> claims about *my* health/diet in your post: forgive me for my

> cynicism, but six months ago you demostrated yourself incapable of

> performing a controlled scientific experiment, claimed the only thing

> you could eat was oat bran (everyone knows there are far less reactive

> foods than oats and you were told so at the time), took supplements

> you didn't know you were reacting to and when you stopped taking them

> you became totally paranoid and angry, blew up and left FailsafeNT,

> all the while claiming the failsafe diet - i.e. *your* strange version

> of the failsafe diet, was making you ill. Nothing to do with the all

> the supplements you were stopping and starting, the peculiar food

> choices, or the detox reactions you were going through.

>

[Guest guest]

On 9/15/07, Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

> Aspirin i.e. salicylate doesn't act by preventing absorption of

> vitamin k, it antagonises some of the specific actions of vitamin K in

> the body. You still have the vitamin K in your body, you just can't

> use it for certain things because of the salicylate's interference.

>

> Therefore the issue is not a vitamin deficiency, it's a drug toxicity.

It doesn't antagonize specific actions, but rather regeneration of the

active form. Because of this and because taking a higher dose of the

vitamin counteracts the effects, it is for all intents and purposes a

vitamin deficiency.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Emma -- I will check it out!

Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Emma,

>

> I'm curious where your blog is -- you've mentioned it a few times, but I

> haven't found the link yet. Can you send it? Thanks! -Jent

Hi Jent,

http://wisewitch.blogspot.com

Considering your symptoms you may find it useful to look through some

food chemical information.