Re: Anyone reading Survival of the Sickest?/methylation and genes

[Guest guest]

OK, this is highly recommended to Weston A. Pricers. He explains

pretty well in layman's terms the process of methylation in which

parts of DNA are covered by methyl to suppress their expression.

Turns out that during pregnancy the mother can " adapt " her child to

the conditions it is likely to find after being born by covering up

parts of the DNA so other parts are expressed instead, for example

holding on to calories in the face of a perceived famine - which

unfortunately happens when people eat nutritient poor foods so their

children wind up more likely to become obese. Also nutrients like

choline suppress methylation of the genes that stop brain development

so when they are suppressed the children wind up smarter.

Unfortunately the author doesn't seem familiar with the work of

Weston A. Price, et. al. but this fits in so very, very nicely!

According to the combination of these, going from degenerated to

regenerated could happen in just two generations, rather than the

much longer timeperiod I've seen other places.

So far scientists are warning not to play around with methylation

because we don't know the effects, but I think we do - that excellent

nutrition turns on all the right genes and turns off the ones that

lead to health problems.

I have a feeling that this could be a big factor in the recent

onslaught of food sensitivities - traits are being turned on and off

randomly in response to the pressure of nutrient-poor foods and high

calorie malnutrition.

[Guest guest]

I was reading somewhere on the autism circuit that about 85% of people with

methylation issues are under-methylators. Does that mean that a mother with

under-methylation is not capable of adapting her children?

Does he tie this in with the folate cycle and the

methylation/transsulferation cycles? It really is interesting how something

like this for the most part can come down to the following nutrients: B12,

B9, B6, B3, B2, Mg and Choline/Betaine/DMG. I agree with you about this

being a possible factor in food sensitivities - getting my folate and

methylation cycles working again definately helped me!

-Lana

On 8/19/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> OK, this is highly recommended to Weston A. Pricers. He explains

> pretty well in layman's terms the process of methylation in which

> parts of DNA are covered by methyl to suppress their expression.

> Turns out that during pregnancy the mother can " adapt " her child to

> the conditions it is likely to find after being born by covering up

> parts of the DNA so other parts are expressed instead, for example

> holding on to calories in the face of a perceived famine - which

> unfortunately happens when people eat nutritient poor foods so their

> children wind up more likely to become obese. Also nutrients like

> choline suppress methylation of the genes that stop brain development

> so when they are suppressed the children wind up smarter.

> <snip>

> I have a feeling that this could be a big factor in the recent

> onslaught of food sensitivities - traits are being turned on and off

> randomly in response to the pressure of nutrient-poor foods and high

> calorie malnutrition.

>

--

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

[Guest guest]

At first I thought you had a typo - the nutrients you listed,

especially the B12 and choline are also being looked at for

myelination for people with MS type problems.

I had never heard of methylation issues in autism, I'll have to look

that up.

In some cases methylation is good in others it isn't - it depends on

what the gene that is being switched off is supposed to do - for

example in smokers, several types of genes that detect and fight

cancer are being switched off, which is bad, but in the case of

intelligence, the methylation switches off the genes that stop brain

development, allowing it go continue developing, creating a smarter

individual than was genetically programmed for. It seems to me like

something you wouldn't want to mess with using harsh means (like

drugs or chemicals) until we understood much more about what you are

doing, but in the case of using excellent nutrition, that seems like

it would merely encourage the body to express the best the genes can

offer.

One thing it does seem to account for is the enzyme producing

capacity of the body - ie ability to produce different kinds of

enzymes like to digest food. If something is switching off the gene

that tells the body to make the enzymes necessary to digest grain,

you've just created gluten sensitivity. Then I guess the question

would be, how to get it turned back on again.

Then the scary thing is, with the genetically modified foods, the

scientists have added segments that are basically " on switches " that

make sure the added trait is not ignored, but exerts its influence

continuously, rather than just when the body needs it to like the

genes we were born with. Various viruses and even bacteria are now

being shown to be in a constant exchange of bits of DNA material with

each other and also any other DNA they come across, like in us,

through at least 3 different mechanisms. So it is not inconceivable

that they could take the " on switch " from corn, soy, cottonseed oil,

etc. and put it in our cells, turning on some bit of DNA that should

be turned off most of the time, messing up our body's balance.

> >

> > OK, this is highly recommended to Weston A. Pricers. He explains

> > pretty well in layman's terms the process of methylation in which

> > parts of DNA are covered by methyl to suppress their expression.

> > Turns out that during pregnancy the mother can " adapt " her child

to

> > the conditions it is likely to find after being born by covering

up

> > parts of the DNA so other parts are expressed instead, for example

> > holding on to calories in the face of a perceived famine - which

> > unfortunately happens when people eat nutritient poor foods so

their

> > children wind up more likely to become obese. Also nutrients like

> > choline suppress methylation of the genes that stop brain

development

> > so when they are suppressed the children wind up smarter.

> > <snip>

> > I have a feeling that this could be a big factor in the recent

> > onslaught of food sensitivities - traits are being turned on and

off

> > randomly in response to the pressure of nutrient-poor foods and

high

> > calorie malnutrition.

> >

>

> --

> " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

all i can say to this theory is, wow!

recently, on one of the mercury/autism lists i'm on, some researcher

made a long post about methylation and glutathione depletion. to

summarize a rather long post, he basically said that there is a

holistic doctor, here in maine of all places, that has had great

success with patients that suffer from CFS and fibromyalgia.

he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock the

methylation process in people and is supposed to be of tremendous

help.

i figured what the heck, why not try them? i ordered them and within

a couple of days felt like a new person. i've spent the better part

of the last four years chelating and recovering from a mercury

challenge test that wrecked my life, and while i have been getting

much better overall, i was still really limited by what i could do

physically and i often had to take 2-3 days of doing nothing to

recover from mild exercise.

within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went out

and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have gone on a

bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the whole methylation

thing and am going to have to now read that book!

thanks,

dave

[Guest guest]

>

>recently, on one of the mercury/autism lists i'm on, some

>researcher made a long post about methylation and glutathione

>depletion. to summarize a rather long post, he basically said

>that there is a holistic doctor, here in maine of all places,

>that has had great success with patients that suffer from CFS

>and fibromyalgia.

Dave,

Was he referring to Yasko? Remember the guy who was also messed up by the

good dr. W, whom you met at one of our potlucks? He now works for Dr. Yasko.

I wonder if he too is having success with her protocol, assuming it's Yasko

you're referring to.

>

>he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock

>the methylation process in people and is supposed to be of

>tremendous help.

What are they? And which autism list are you referring to? And who's the

poster? Andy Cutler?

>within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went

>out and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have

>gone on a bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the

>whole methylation thing and am going to have to now read that book!

This is super news! Guess a few hours at the Common Ground Fair won't knock

you out for a few days then? :-)

Suze

[Guest guest]

Going to pick up a copy of that book....sounds amazing. There was an Autism

One paper on Autism/methylation a couple of years ago.....here's an excerpt

- mentions glutathione, etc. Dana of has written about it in

the past - and I thought a key reason people chelate then supplement to

boost glutathione production;

http://www.autismcoach.com/Autism%20One%20Conference.htm -Sharon

One of the molecules produced during methylation is glutathione, a primary

detoxifier of the body. Dr. Jill St. has found that children with

autism have considerably lower levels of glutathione in their blood than

neuro-typical children. She has found that a combination of supplements

that includes methylated forms of B12, B6, folinic acid, TMG and DMG (tri-

and di-methyl glycine) provide the methyl groups (one carbon atom linked to

three hydrogen atoms) that are badly needed to complete the methlyation

process. These are needed, part to produce the glutathione which in turn is

used to create the metalothionein, both of which bind to heavy metals and

help to remove them from the body. This combination of supplements was

successfully used by her to raise the levels of glutathione in the blood.

In addition, a new form of glutathione, called lipoceutical glutathione is

now commercially available. Prior formulations of glutathione were not as

well absorbed in the body. Providing sulfur through Epsom salt baths helps

to support the methylation pathway as well, as does supplementation with

zinc and selenium.

On 8/20/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> I had never heard of methylation issues in autism, I'll have to look

> that up.

>

> In some cases methylation is good in others it isn't - it depends on

> what the gene that is being switched off is supposed to do - for

> example in smokers, several types of genes that detect and fight

> cancer are being switched off, which is bad, but in the case of

> intelligence, the methylation switches off the genes that stop brain

> development, allowing it go continue developing, creating a smarter

> individual than was genetically programmed for. It seems to me like

> something you wouldn't want to mess with using harsh means (like

> drugs or chemicals) until we understood much more about what you are

> doing, but in the case of using excellent nutrition, that seems like

> it would merely encourage the body to express the best the genes can

> offer.

>

> One thing it does seem to account for is the enzyme producing

> capacity of the body - ie ability to produce different kinds of

> enzymes like to digest food. If something is switching off the gene

> that tells the body to make the enzymes necessary to digest grain,

> you've just created gluten sensitivity. Then I guess the question

> would be, how to get it turned back on again.

>

> Then the scary thing is, with the genetically modified foods, the

> scientists have added segments that are basically " on switches " that

> make sure the added trait is not ignored, but exerts its influence

> continuously, rather than just when the body needs it to like the

> genes we were born with. Various viruses and even bacteria are now

> being shown to be in a constant exchange of bits of DNA material with

> each other and also any other DNA they come across, like in us,

> through at least 3 different mechanisms. So it is not inconceivable

> that they could take the " on switch " from corn, soy, cottonseed oil,

> etc. and put it in our cells, turning on some bit of DNA that should

> be turned off most of the time, messing up our body's balance.

>

>

> > >

> > > OK, this is highly recommended to Weston A. Pricers. He explains

> > > pretty well in layman's terms the process of methylation in which

> > > parts of DNA are covered by methyl to suppress their expression.

> > > Turns out that during pregnancy the mother can " adapt " her child

> to

> > > the conditions it is likely to find after being born by covering

> up

> > > parts of the DNA so other parts are expressed instead, for example

> > > holding on to calories in the face of a perceived famine - which

> > > unfortunately happens when people eat nutritient poor foods so

> their

> > > children wind up more likely to become obese. Also nutrients like

> > > choline suppress methylation of the genes that stop brain

> development

> > > so when they are suppressed the children wind up smarter.

> > > <snip>

> > > I have a feeling that this could be a big factor in the recent

> > > onslaught of food sensitivities - traits are being turned on and

> off

> > > randomly in response to the pressure of nutrient-poor foods and

> high

> > > calorie malnutrition.

> > >

> >

> > --

> > " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wow, thanks for that one - it spurred a flurry of reading for me and

I found this one, very interesting, that says that autism may be the

result of glutathione depletion in early life while CFS may be the

result of glutathione depletion later in life. Gave me chills,

because you know a friend of mine is the founder of the lyme and

autism group who believes that parents who have lyme have a higher

than normal chance of having children with autism - well lyme can

cause CFS too and perhaps the mechanism is the glutathione

depletion. (her theory, and she's talked to lots of parents and

doctors, is that if autism is caused by lyme, treating the lyme cures

the autism, and it has for many)

Here it is:

http://phoenix-cfs.org/GSH%20Autism.htm

I'm also reading that proteins, a few specific amino acids which I've

currently forgotten, have a role in the glutathione/methylation

process which cannot happen without them which may explain why

Darman's kid is becoming a super-kid on his amino acid supplements -

he's getting better methylation than most. Just a thought.

> > > >

> > > > OK, this is highly recommended to Weston A. Pricers. He

explains

> > > > pretty well in layman's terms the process of methylation in

which

> > > > parts of DNA are covered by methyl to suppress their

expression.

> > > > Turns out that during pregnancy the mother can " adapt " her

child

> > to

> > > > the conditions it is likely to find after being born by

covering

> > up

> > > > parts of the DNA so other parts are expressed instead, for

example

> > > > holding on to calories in the face of a perceived famine -

which

> > > > unfortunately happens when people eat nutritient poor foods so

> > their

> > > > children wind up more likely to become obese. Also nutrients

like

> > > > choline suppress methylation of the genes that stop brain

> > development

> > > > so when they are suppressed the children wind up smarter.

> > > > <snip>

> > > > I have a feeling that this could be a big factor in the recent

> > > > onslaught of food sensitivities - traits are being turned on

and

> > off

> > > > randomly in response to the pressure of nutrient-poor foods

and

> > high

> > > > calorie malnutrition.

> > > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > " There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin

proverb

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Is that the methylation block hypothesis for CFS? If so, it is a pretty

well written program biochemically! I ended up figuring out how to get my

folate cycle going on my own, and then came across his work which is

remarkably similar to what I had done. I too have gotten back a LOT of

energy and have found myself biking and walking again. I think I have a

copy of that post somewhere, if anyone wants it.

-Lana

On 8/20/07, <fonzer > wrote:

>

> all i can say to this theory is, wow!

>

> recently, on one of the mercury/autism lists i'm on, some researcher

> made a long post about methylation and glutathione depletion. to

> summarize a rather long post, he basically said that there is a

> holistic doctor, here in maine of all places, that has had great

> success with patients that suffer from CFS and fibromyalgia.

>

> he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock the

> methylation process in people and is supposed to be of tremendous

> help.

> <snip>

>

> within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went out

> and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have gone on a

> bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the whole methylation

> thing and am going to have to now read that book!

>

> thanks,

> dave

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the summary!

I'm finding the nutrients I listed are implicated in a lot of diseases - the

methylation cycle really is central to energy production/storage, amino acid

production (carnitine, serine, cysteine and taurine), folate recycling,

glutathione production, etc. Best I can tell, each disease seems to center

on a different part of the cycle breaking: folate for Autism, B12 for MS and

Mg for Lyme. Then we have SAMe, which is necessary for the conversion of

serotonin to melatonin, so there are implications for bowel disease,

depression and sleep disorders as well.

I sure have a lot more respect for the methylation and folate cycles than I

used to.

-Lana

On 8/20/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> At first I thought you had a typo - the nutrients you listed,

> especially the B12 and choline are also being looked at for

> myelination for people with MS type problems.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Suze, long time no see.

Yes, he is referring to Yasko! I know next to nothing about her, but

I am contemplating a visit to her. What can you tell me about her?

And yeah, I remember the other victim of Dr. W (hot dog). What's his

job entail for her?

The list I got the info from is the sulfurstories list. It's run by

this great woman named Owens, who also runs an interesting list

about oxalates. The name of the researcher who posted the

information is Rich Van Konynenburg.

The five supplements:

1. one-quarter tablet (200 micrograms) Folapro (Metagenics)

2. one-quarter tablet Intrinsi/B12/folate (Metagenics)

3. (up to) 2 tablets (It's best to start with ¼ tablet and work up as

tolerated) Complete vitamin and antioxidant neurological health

formula (Holistic Health Consultants)

4. one softgel capsule Phosphatidyl Serine Complex

5. one sublingual lozenge Perque B12

If you like, I can forward the post to you or post it here. It's a

pretty long and detailed post and explains why each one of those five

is important.

And yeah! I wouldn't have volunteered to hand out copies of

Aajonus's books at the common ground fair if it weren't for this!

I'd be laid up for a minimum of three days afterwards!

..

>

> Dave,

>

> Was he referring to Yasko? Remember the guy who was also messed up

by the

> good dr. W, whom you met at one of our potlucks? He now works for

Dr. Yasko.

> I wonder if he too is having success with her protocol, assuming

it's Yasko

> you're referring to.

>

> >

> >he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock

> >the methylation process in people and is supposed to be of

> >tremendous help.

>

> What are they? And which autism list are you referring to? And

who's the

> poster? Andy Cutler?

>

>

>

> >within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went

> >out and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have

> >gone on a bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the

> >whole methylation thing and am going to have to now read that book!

>

> This is super news! Guess a few hours at the Common Ground Fair

won't knock

> you out for a few days then? :-)

>

> Suze

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana! I believe that is what I was referring to. Did you see it

on the sulfurstories list?

If you wouldn't mind, could I email you off list and discuss what and

how you figured out the folate cycle for yourself?

Thanks!

Dave

> >

> > all i can say to this theory is, wow!

> >

> > recently, on one of the mercury/autism lists i'm on, some

researcher

> > made a long post about methylation and glutathione depletion. to

> > summarize a rather long post, he basically said that there is a

> > holistic doctor, here in maine of all places, that has had great

> > success with patients that suffer from CFS and fibromyalgia.

> >

> > he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock the

> > methylation process in people and is supposed to be of tremendous

> > help.

> > <snip>

> >

> > within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went out

> > and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have gone

on a

> > bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the whole

methylation

> > thing and am going to have to now read that book!

> >

> > thanks,

> > dave

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, it was sulfurstories. Feel free to email me offlist.

-Lana

On 8/21/07, <fonzer> wrote:

>

> Hi Lana! I believe that is what I was referring to. Did you see it

> on the sulfurstories list?

>

> If you wouldn't mind, could I email you off list and discuss what and

> how you figured out the folate cycle for yourself?

>

>

> Thanks!

> Dave

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Dave,

>

> Is that the methylation block hypothesis for CFS? If so, it is a pretty

> well written program biochemically! I ended up figuring out how to

get my

> folate cycle going on my own, and then came across his work which is

> remarkably similar to what I had done. I too have gotten back a LOT of

> energy and have found myself biking and walking again. I think I have a

> copy of that post somewhere, if anyone wants it.

>

I'd like to see it, if you still have it.

[Guest guest]

I'm interested, too.

ee Meade

Burke, VA

---- tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> --- In , " Lana Gibbons "

> > Is that the methylation block hypothesis for CFS? If so, it is a pretty

> > well written program biochemically! I ended up figuring out how to

> get my

> > folate cycle going on my own, and then came across his work which is

> > remarkably similar to what I had done. I too have gotten back a LOT of

> > energy and have found myself biking and walking again. I think I have a

> > copy of that post somewhere, if anyone wants it.

> >

>

> I'd like to see it, if you still have it.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I too would be interested.

Thanks,

Gail Z. at email gailz059@...

> > --- In , " Lana Gibbons "

> > > Is that the methylation block hypothesis for CFS? If so, it is

a pretty

> > > well written program biochemically! I ended up figuring out how to

> > get my

> > > folate cycle going on my own, and then came across his work which is

> > > remarkably similar to what I had done. I too have gotten back a

LOT of

> > > energy and have found myself biking and walking again. I think

I have a

> > > copy of that post somewhere, if anyone wants it.

> > >

> >

> > I'd like to see it, if you still have it.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I did! Did you receive my email?

>

> Yeah, it was sulfurstories. Feel free to email me offlist.

>

> -Lana

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Lana,

Could you share how you went about getting your folate cycle going as

well as whatever else you did (especially regarding methylation) to

improve your health? I bet a lot of other list members besides myself

would like to know.

Thanks,

Gail Z.

> >

> > all i can say to this theory is, wow!

> >

> > recently, on one of the mercury/autism lists i'm on, some researcher

> > made a long post about methylation and glutathione depletion. to

> > summarize a rather long post, he basically said that there is a

> > holistic doctor, here in maine of all places, that has had great

> > success with patients that suffer from CFS and fibromyalgia.

> >

> > he recommended 5 products, that when taken together, unblock the

> > methylation process in people and is supposed to be of tremendous

> > help.

> > <snip>

> >

> > within a week on this stuff, i felt so much better that i went out

> > and bought a mountain bike, went to a local dance and have gone on a

> > bunch of hikes. i'm definitely a believer in the whole methylation

> > thing and am going to have to now read that book!

> >

> > thanks,

> > dave

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So sorry my reply is so tardy!

>Hi Suze, long time no see.

Yes, we've missed you at the potlucks lately!

>

>Yes, he is referring to Yasko! I know next to nothing about

>her, but I am contemplating a visit to her. What can you tell

>me about her?

Next to nothing. <g> It was a year or so ago when he showed me the genetic

chart she did for him. I don't recall much else of the conversation. Here's

here website if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.holistichealth.com/Welcome.html

I do know that my friend was very impressed with her.

>And yeah, I remember the other victim of Dr. W (hot dog).

>What's his job entail for her?

I don't recall - I think he worked in the supplement department, which is

what he did at Wild Oats and may still be there parttime.

>

>The list I got the info from is the sulfurstories list. It's

>run by this great woman named Owens, who also runs an

>interesting list about oxalates. The name of the researcher

>who posted the information is Rich Van Konynenburg.

Ack! Two more lists I'd love to join but don't have time for!

>

>The five supplements:

>1. one-quarter tablet (200 micrograms) Folapro (Metagenics)

>

>2. one-quarter tablet Intrinsi/B12/folate (Metagenics)

>

>3. (up to) 2 tablets (It's best to start with ¼ tablet and work up as

>tolerated) Complete vitamin and antioxidant neurological

>health formula (Holistic Health Consultants)

>

>4. one softgel capsule Phosphatidyl Serine Complex

>

>5. one sublingual lozenge Perque B12

Looks very interesting. I'm so glad it's helping you :-)

>

>And yeah! I wouldn't have volunteered to hand out copies of

>Aajonus's books at the common ground fair if it weren't for this!

>I'd be laid up for a minimum of three days afterwards!

Maybe next year you can apply to MOFGA for a Primal Diet booth ;-)

Suze

[Guest guest]

>

>People with food chemical sensitivities, fibromyalgia and

>autism are predisposed to these syndromes due to a 'cocktail'

>of very common genetic polymorphisms in their methylation cycle.

>

>These genetic polymorphisms are good old fashioned

>non-methylated, inheritable genes that have been around for

>thousands if not millions of years, in not only humans but animals.

Emma,

So some *dogs* may also have a genetic makeup that predisposes them to

requiring extra support for their methylation cylce? Could human breeding of

dogs have interfered with this, in your opinion, since breeding interferes

with natural selection?

Suze

[Guest guest]

Gail,

I eat folate rich foods such as liver, legumes and whole grains. (I get

about 600-800 mcg/day from diet, which is up to 200% DV.)

I avoid the synthetic folate: folic acid due to previous bad reactions and

the fact that it takes twice the enzymatic effort to assimilate as the

natural folates do. Of the natural folates, 5-MTHF is better than Folinic

acid (because it bypasses MTHFR mutations), but I couldn't get a hold of it

so I used DMG+Folinic when I was still supplementing. IMHO, DMG is better

than TMG. TMG has 3 methyl groups - 2 are used to recycle folate and one is

used to recycle homocysteine (which should be the job of the recycled

folate, but TMG usurps that), whereas DMG has 2 methyl groups which are both

used to recycle folate.

I get my B12 from mostly liver and milk - my intake can be as high as 10 mcg

some days (430% DV). I didn't do well with the standard forms of B12 in

supplements: Cyanocobalamin contains cyanide and I was getting cyanide

toxicity symptoms from it (likely because my body was so busy eliminating

mercury), methylcobalamin didn't sit well either (for the same reason I

dislike TMG - its methyl group is given to homocysteine instead of folate)

and I couldn't get hydroxycobalamin locally.

B6, B3, B2 and Mg are all very important cofactors for the various

conversions of one kind of folate to another. On a good day, my diet

contains 3.6 mg of B2, which at 275% DV isn't always enough (so I

occasionally supplement). I currently meet the guidelines for the others,

but I feel I need more Mg and B6. So I occasionally take epsom salt baths

(might be switching to MgCl baths though) and I take P5P once in a while.

As for the whatever-else-I-did, which is a lot, it is getting written up in

a word document. I'm up to page 18 and I still haven't gotten everything

down. I hope to have a draft ready soon, I've been working on this for what

seems to be forever!

-Lana

On 8/26/07, gailz059 <gailz059@... > wrote:

>

> Hi Lana,

>

> Could you share how you went about getting your folate cycle going as

> well as whatever else you did (especially regarding methylation) to

> improve your health? I bet a lot of other list members besides myself

> would like to know.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Gail Z.

>

[Guest guest]

On 8/19/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> So far scientists are warning not to play around with methylation

> because we don't know the effects, but I think we do - that excellent

> nutrition turns on all the right genes and turns off the ones that

> lead to health problems.

I went to a conference at Tufts this year and one of the PhD students

had a poster presentation of her study showing that folate upregulated

the methylation of a pro-cancer gene and downregulated the methylation

of an anti-cancer gene. Really interesting, since we only really

understand folate's relation to methylation, as far as I know, as a

methyl donor, but obviously something else is going on if it

methylates just the things that need to be methylated and stops the

methylation of the things that need to not be methylated.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On 9/4/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> IMHO, DMG is better

> than TMG. TMG has 3 methyl groups - 2 are used to recycle folate and one is

> used to recycle homocysteine (which should be the job of the recycled

> folate, but TMG usurps that), whereas DMG has 2 methyl groups which are both

> used to recycle folate.

So TMG does two things and DMG does one -- sounds like TMG is better

to me. More nutrition. Like getting extra folate, no? Besides that,

TMG plays a variety of other important roles itself and protects the

liver ducts and kidneys from osmotic stress.

I don't really get your reasoning about " usurping. " It doesn't usurp

anything because it is used for that function by a totally different

enzyme. It also appears to only perform this function in the liver

and kidneys, where it is needed for other things. Finally, why do you

say " usurp " instead of " spare. " If you say it " spares " folate, so

you need less of it, it sounds much better. Why would I want to

increase my need for folate?

Chris

> I get my B12 from mostly liver and milk - my intake can be as high as 10 mcg

> some days (430% DV). I didn't do well with the standard forms of B12 in

> supplements: Cyanocobalamin contains cyanide and I was getting cyanide

> toxicity symptoms from it (likely because my body was so busy eliminating

> mercury), methylcobalamin didn't sit well either (for the same reason I

> dislike TMG - its methyl group is given to homocysteine instead of folate)

> and I couldn't get hydroxycobalamin locally.

>

> B6, B3, B2 and Mg are all very important cofactors for the various

> conversions of one kind of folate to another. On a good day, my diet

> contains 3.6 mg of B2, which at 275% DV isn't always enough (so I

> occasionally supplement). I currently meet the guidelines for the others,

> but I feel I need more Mg and B6. So I occasionally take epsom salt baths

> (might be switching to MgCl baths though) and I take P5P once in a while.

>

> As for the whatever-else-I-did, which is a lot, it is getting written up in

> a word document. I'm up to page 18 and I still haven't gotten everything

> down. I hope to have a draft ready soon, I've been working on this for what

> seems to be forever!

>

> -Lana

>

> On 8/26/07, gailz059 <gailz059@... > wrote:

> >

> > Hi Lana,

> >

> > Could you share how you went about getting your folate cycle going as

> > well as whatever else you did (especially regarding methylation) to

> > improve your health? I bet a lot of other list members besides myself

> > would like to know.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Gail Z.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> On 8/19/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> > So far scientists are warning not to play around with methylation

> > because we don't know the effects, but I think we do - that excellent

> > nutrition turns on all the right genes and turns off the ones that

> > lead to health problems.

You are so right! If everyone sits around waiting for today's version of

" science " to give its

blessing to how our bodies function nutritionally, we deserve the poor health

we've settled for!

Jent

" The greater part of what my neighbors call good, I believe in my soul to be

bad, and if I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What

demon possessed me that I behaved so well? " -Henry Thoreau

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Sick sense of humor? Visit TV's

Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

http://tv./collections/222

[Guest guest]

So TMG does two things and DMG does one -- sounds like TMG is better

> to me. More nutrition. Like getting extra folate, no?

No, it doesn't result in any extra folate - just unused methylated folate

which isn't necessarily good.

Besides that,

> TMG plays a variety of other important roles itself and protects the

> liver ducts and kidneys from osmotic stress.

I stated preference for DMG specifically in terms of which to use to help

restart the folate cycle. Protection from osmotic stress, while useful,

doesn't really have anything to do with restarting the folate cycle AFAIK.

I don't really get your reasoning about " usurping. " It doesn't usurp

> anything because it is used for that function by a totally different

> enzyme. It also appears to only perform this function in the liver

> and kidneys, where it is needed for other things. Finally, why do you

> say " usurp " instead of " spare. " If you say it " spares " folate, so

> you need less of it, it sounds much better. Why would I want to

> increase my need for folate?

I don't see where you're getting " increase the need for folate " - I'm

talking about upregulating the folate cycle but that should not increase the

need for folate unless you have a MTHFR disorder (which reduces recycling

capabilities) or you have a true folate deficiency (which should be fixed

anyway).

Most of what folate does in the body requires it to continue cycling through

the various forms of folate. I use usurp because there is a limited amount

of homocysteine waiting to be methylated and in order for you to use the

folate you have (to keep it circulating through the different types of

folate), homocysteine should be methylated by folate whenever folate is

available. Think of it like gears - the folate cycle can only move as fast

as the homocysteine/methionine (methylation) cycle allows it to.

-Lana

P.S. If there is no more folate but there is still homocysteine, TMG is

excellent for stepping in and preventing the accumulation of homocysteine

until folate levels can be increased. TMG is also useful in the event of a

B12 deficiency, since methylated folate can not be used to methylate

homocysteine if there is no B12 available. However, TMG will not correct

the underlying issue of the B12 and folate deficiencies, it will only

compensate for them.

[Guest guest]

>I went to a conference at Tufts this year and one of the PhD

>students had a poster presentation of her study showing that

>folate upregulated the methylation of a pro-cancer gene and

>downregulated the methylation of an anti-cancer gene.

I don't know if this ties in at all, but this morning I was reading about

folate in that nutrition textbook I was telling you about the other day and

the author wrote some stuff about folate and oncogenes, most of which I

didn't understand, but the gist I got was that the genes might be turned on

by a folate binding protein, and the more folate in the body, the LESS

folate binding protein is produced, according to the author. In this way,

the presence of folate has an inverse relationship with the turning on of

the gene, IIRC.

Suze