Re: Nitrates - help please !!!

[Guest guest]

On 1/13/07, bellasol.organics <bellasol.organics@...> wrote:

> I have studied the curing process extensively. I have taken the

> UW-cured meats and sausage course and am a UW Extension Master Food

> Preserver.

Thanks for the information Jan. Quite interesting that sodium nitrate

might have a positive effect on blood pressure! It looks to me like

the nitrate scare has been misguided from the start and that the

lesson we should take from the hidden nitrates in " naturally cured "

foods is that we should be thankful we've been getting scammed by the

labeling because nitrates are unlikely to be anywhere near as harmful

as botulism toxin.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> How about an orange instead? An orange is much more nutritious than a

> glass of orange juice, has much less fructose, and will, unlike orange

> juice, contribute a little bit to the satiety value of your meal. If

> you're watching your weight, you'd be much better off with the orange.

I eat an orange or grapefruit several times a week. I agree they are

good for most people and certainly more healthful than drinking the

juice. However, my wife and daughter will only eat a few slices of

orange and neither likes grapefruit. They will both eat a little

cantaloupe and my daughter will eat water melon. That's why I

suggested " melons or citrus " on the side for adding vitamin C and

antioxidants when eating bacon and eggs. Of course, these foods may

be problematic for some, like my wife, who may be more sensitive to

salicylates than most of us. She likes bacon, but is allergic to

eggs, and she prefers pears over citrus (pears as you know are low in

salicylates).

[Guest guest]

,

> I eat an orange or grapefruit several times a week. I agree they are

> good for most people and certainly more healthful than drinking the

> juice. However, my wife and daughter will only eat a few slices of

> orange and neither likes grapefruit. They will both eat a little

> cantaloupe and my daughter will eat water melon. That's why I

> suggested " melons or citrus " on the side for adding vitamin C and

> antioxidants when eating bacon and eggs.

Pears are not a good source of vitamin C, but it looks like canteloupe

is a decent source if you'll eat quite a bit of it. A cup has about

58 mg, much more than a cup of watermelon, which only has 12 mg.

That said, isn't the issue primarily preventing the formation of

nitrosamines during cooking? I had thought before that it was the

conversion in the intestines, however it seemed that the information

presented in the thread so far seemed to indicate that it was really

preformed nitrosamines that are the problem after all. They add

ascorbic acid to the nitrate solution apparently to prevent it from

occuring during storage.

> Of course, these foods may

> be problematic for some, like my wife, who may be more sensitive to

> salicylates than most of us. She likes bacon, but is allergic to

> eggs, and she prefers pears over citrus (pears as you know are low in

> salicylates).

I seriously doubt that the best long-term solution to salicylate

intolerance is to avoid salicylates, though that might be a good

short-term measure. I guess my belief is largely based on the fact

that research seems to consistently show that people who consume more

fruits have protection against cancer and other diseases, that we have

an in-born taste for sweets, which would naturally be filled by

fruits, that other primates eat fruit-rich diets, and that fruits are

a significant part of traditional diets wherever they are available to

the extent that they are available. Even the Inuit made an effort to

gather and preserve whatever berries they could, and they were in the

environment most limited in available plant foods.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Emma,

> Probably because after wreaking havoc on the body some of the nitrate

> eventually gets turned into nitric oxide. A better way to get nitric

> oxide would be to eat enough arginine. Just because something " lowers

> blood pressure " doesn't make it good for you. If you have normal blood

> pressure, lowering it is as dangerous as raising it, hence its

> association with syncope (see pubmed for 51 citations on this subject).

Oh, I agree that doesn't necessarily make it good. Just, as I said,

interesting.

> Certainly I would prefer a dose of nitrates to a dose of botulinism,

> however it is merely the lesser of two evils. Nitrates are notorious

> for causing stomach aches and IBS. Just because something is found in

> intensively farmed food doesn't make it " natural " , and just because

> something is " natural " doesn't make it harmless to our health. If you

> don't want a dose of botulinism, don't eat old meat!

I agree, but I was making the comment in the context of the general

discussion in which people were looking for " nitrate-free " old meat

and finding out that even the " natural " old meat had nitrates -- and

frankly if you're going to eat old meat I think you should eat it with

nitrates, unless you have a good way of controlling the ferment to

ensure beneficial bacteria and against botulism. I was reading

recently that a number of deaths due to botulism in traditional

ferments of the Inuit have been recorded. And low-level exposure to

botulism toxin is probably no good as well.

I probably should not have sounded so excited about nitrates in my

post -- sorry for the confusion.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

, I agree with on the OJ, I was thinking of squeezing some

fresh (I use to have an orange, lemon and lime tree in my backyard),

but having said that, you do need to be careful with quantity. It

takes a lot of oranges to make a glass. Remember the old tiny 6 oz

glasses we used to get in a restaurant for juice? And of course the

rest of the orange is important too, pulp and all. I just thought it

was kind of interesting how the " traditional bacon, eggs, and OJ "

breakfast actually complimented each other (of course not everyday).

> The few times I've made bacon over the last several months, I cooked

> the bacon at low heat to maybe medium well done and then scrambled

> some eggs in the left-over bacon grease. I like the eggs that way,

> but all that extra fat in the eggs seems to give my 9 yo daughter a

> tummy ache. And now she won't eat the eggs that way. You can also

> pour off the bacon grease and save it for use with cooking other

> foods, like beans (Southern cooking style - but you probably know

this

> already).

I understand, Sally made a comment somewhere that if one feels an

upset stomach from the fat/oil it's the body's way of saying it's had

enough. I like the taste of some bacon fat with the eggs, but not

too much-just a teaspoon, I drain the rest off. My eggs are so rich,

dark orange-that they just don't need very much extra with them. I

also noted that we eat much less meat, eggs, etc. once we started

eating our own grassfed meats, milk, and eggs. My customers have

noticed that too. It seems when we are given food rich in nutrients

and good fats, we are satiated so much sooner. I think this is why

people who adopt some WAPF principals, but are still buying

commercial products may gain weight. The commercial stuff just isn't

filling and we ate more of it than we now eat of our own. That and

keeping the carbs low (like eating one orange instead of 5 in a med

glass of OJ) has helped me lose weight steadily over the past two

years.

> You can also

> pour off the bacon grease and save it for use with cooking other

> foods, like beans (Southern cooking style - but you probably know

this

> already).

Actually, I was raised and cook very, shall we say,-old world

Mediterranean, so I am still learning to incorporate lard and tallow

into my cooking instead of using olive oil for everything.

> > Now I'll really make an effort to keep it less crisp. At least

> > with pastured, organic bacon you're getting a nutrient dense food

> > that we've had for at least two thousand years!

> > How about that morning OJ for the vitamin C?

>

> I like OJ, but I don't drink it because of the high fructose dose.

> I'd still like to loose another 20 pounds (I've lost about 30 pounds

> over the last year and a half) - so I try to eat fairly low carb.

> However, a little bit of OJ - maybe half a cup - shouldn't be too

bad

> on the fructose dose and would provide about 62 mg of vitamin C

> according to the USDA (and about 10 g of sugars).

>

> Adding foods with vitamin C and other antioxidants to compliment

bacon

> and scrambled eggs should also help to minimize problems from eating

> oxidized fats from the cooked bacon fat and eggs. Diced peppers and

> onions in the eggs and melons and/or citrus on the side should be

good

> in this respect.

>

> > Also, I've been wondering about the Vitamin C content of the meat.

> > I know horses make their own vitamin C until they get older

(that's

> > the secret ingredient in " Senior " horse feed), but where do they

> > store it?, and do the other animals store it similarly?

> >

> > I'm still searching for these answers.

>

> The only meat that made the WHF vitamin C list was calf's liver,

which

> they rate as a " very good " source and show 35 mg from a 4 oz

serving:

> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient & dbid=109

>

> Ground lamb and beef show O mg of vitamin C per 100 g according to

the

> USDA - although these measurements are likely to be from

> grain-finished animals. You might have to go to France to check on

> the horse meat. (where's Furbish when we need him?

>

Yes, the USDA info is for grain fed animals, so it's really

unreliable for the true info on grass fed meats. I look at stats for

game animals, but again we have to be careful - so many animals like

bison, deer, and elk are being grain fed now, it's a shame. We are

getting some new stats from some researchers like Dr. Tilak Dhiman or

many others on Eatwild.com But at this point the research is still

focusing on the different fat contents. Soon we may have more

variety of research on the meat profiles. However, Vit.C in calf's

liver is just another reason to work it into our diet! I wonder: if

Vit C is an anti-oxidant, would it is stored in the liver to help

serve that purpose? Seems to make sense, anyone else know about Vit C

storage?

Jan

[Guest guest]

Yes, botulism is very nasty. I've been researching into the

potassium-nitrate vs. sodium-nitrate issue and have found some very

interesting things-I'll be able to post them soon, but one thing is

that going back to Roman times, or even before, the salt used

was 'impure' (like from the Red Sea) and so it contained nitrates

which protected against the botulism. They actually traced sickness

to bad sausage in the 1700's but didn't get the connection to

botulism and nitrates as the prevention until the early 1900's. I am

sure like many 'old ways' by trial and error (!!) they found

the 'best'(with nitrates) salt to use to preserve the meat-usually!.

I've had big demands from consumers who want 'natural bacon' from our

pork, (which is why I was taking the classes), but the more I looked

into it the more the differences faded. And to get it done right,

safely, you have to practically invent the recipe yourself, as they

are all 'proprietary'. Big Risk. I finally just quit offering any

cured-natural or commercial products at all. All the pork

is 'fresh'. Fresh Sausage, on the other hand, can be made just like

meatloaf, kept frozen and undergoes no 'processing'. It really

shouldn't be considered a processed food, unless it is has additives

like nitrates or is smoked.

~Jan

>

> > I have studied the curing process extensively. I have taken the

> > UW-cured meats and sausage course and am a UW Extension Master

Food

> > Preserver.

>

> Thanks for the information Jan. Quite interesting that sodium

nitrate

> might have a positive effect on blood pressure! It looks to me like

> the nitrate scare has been misguided from the start and that the

> lesson we should take from the hidden nitrates in " naturally cured "

> foods is that we should be thankful we've been getting scammed by

the

> labeling because nitrates are unlikely to be anywhere near as

harmful

> as botulism toxin.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

Emma, I noted in a post to that our CSA members and my

family have found that we eat much less meats, etc when they are our

grassfed (read: the kind everyone ate long ago) animals. Maybe

people could tolerate the nitrates in the preserved meat because

1. they weren't eating that much of it.

2. the remainder of their diet was rich in anti-oxidants which

protected them or countered any effects

3. The level of nitrates in vegetables was lower because nitrate in

fertilizer (don't get me wrong, potassium-nitrate has been used as a

fertilizer for a long time, at least in the 1800's- but I'm thinking

not in the same quantity as today) wasn't being added at the levels

they are now, and so less was being taken up by the plants they were

eating.

This might have given them a lower overall nitrate level in their

system, even when some came from the salts in the preserved meats??

Absolutely no actual research on this- just putting together some

ideas. Does this seem too far out, or plausible?

~Jan

>

> Emma,

>

> > Probably because after wreaking havoc on the body some of the

nitrate

> > eventually gets turned into nitric oxide. A better way to get

nitric

> > oxide would be to eat enough arginine. Just because

something " lowers

> > blood pressure " doesn't make it good for you. If you have normal

blood

> > pressure, lowering it is as dangerous as raising it, hence its

> > association with syncope (see pubmed for 51 citations on this

subject).

>

> Oh, I agree that doesn't necessarily make it good. Just, as I said,

> interesting.

>

> > Certainly I would prefer a dose of nitrates to a dose of

botulinism,

> > however it is merely the lesser of two evils. Nitrates are

notorious

> > for causing stomach aches and IBS. Just because something is

found in

> > intensively farmed food doesn't make it " natural " , and just

because

> > something is " natural " doesn't make it harmless to our health. If

you

> > don't want a dose of botulinism, don't eat old meat!

>

> I agree, but I was making the comment in the context of the general

> discussion in which people were looking for " nitrate-free " old meat

> and finding out that even the " natural " old meat had nitrates -- and

> frankly if you're going to eat old meat I think you should eat it

with

> nitrates, unless you have a good way of controlling the ferment to

> ensure beneficial bacteria and against botulism. I was reading

> recently that a number of deaths due to botulism in traditional

> ferments of the Inuit have been recorded. And low-level exposure to

> botulism toxin is probably no good as well.

>

> I probably should not have sounded so excited about nitrates in my

> post -- sorry for the confusion.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/17/07 4:27:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,

vitaminkgirl@... writes:

>

> There is also more than one way to skin a cat. Ketogenic diets have

> shown considerable promise in killing off cancer, since cancer cell

> mitochondria can only create energy via anerobic conversion of

> glucose. They cannot burn fat. The Inuit were free of cancer not

> because they sought out berries, but because on their low carbohydrate

> diet, cancer could not thrive in their bodies.>>

I think your saying eating some kind of berries may ward off cancer. What kind

[Guest guest]

Emma,

If you're suggesting eliminating salicylates from the diet, then what does

someone take for a bad headache? The kind you can't work with. For myself, a

couple of aspirin, usually decreases the pain pretty quickly. I have never

found anything else that works as well, other than stronger medications that I

wouldn't think of taking. I don't get them very often at all, but when I do, it

can last days, where when I take an aspirin, it's down to a few hrs. This seems

worth it to me.

jafa

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[Guest guest]

What about advil? What is that?

Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote: ---

In , jafa <jafasum@...> wrote:

> If you're suggesting eliminating salicylates from the diet, then

what does someone take for a bad headache? The kind you can't work with.

The irony is that the majority of headaches are caused by food

chemicals like salicylates, amines, acetaldehyde, caffeine. Since I

stopped eating food chemicals, I don't get headaches anymore.

For myself, a couple of aspirin, usually decreases the pain pretty

quickly.

Paracetamol/tylenol is actually a less harmful alternative, though it

is hardly innocent.

---------------------------------

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