Green Pastures coconut oil

[Guest guest]

On 4/25/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> For real? you couldn't just set it aside--in a sealed/sterile or

> otherwise very clean container--and see if it " turned " , ie, became

> rancid, fermented, whatever? I mean just look for gross changes?

> B.

How would that tell you whether there are any enzymes left? His claim

was that the enzymes are destroyed, not that the it is stinky.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

On 4/25/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> Nor do I understand how the oil can be " enzyme-active " and remain

> shelf-stable.

I don't understand what you don't understand. Honey is loaded with

enzymes, and is incredibly shelf-stable.

Usually when people refer to an oil's shelf-stability, what is at

issue is rancidity, which is caused by the oxidation of fats, and has

nothing to do with enzymes. In fact one of the primary factors that

can *cause* rancidity -- heat -- also causes the destruction of

enzymes.

> I think any statements implying " raw is best " vis-a-vis

> enzymes in VCO are misleading.

I have no idea whether a) it has a significant quanity of enzymes

whether those enzymes are of any value or c) whether Aajunas has any

idea what he's talking about when he says they are destroyed at 96

degrees. It's possible that all three are correct, but I don't know

one way or another.

> ANH (absolutely no heat)vco is the latest craze, but AFAIK they are

> still not saying it has active enzymes--perhaps other heat-sensitive

> compounds, as you said, but enzymes--really?

I really have no idea. I think sometimes " enzymes " is just a buzz

word people use to mean anything or nothing, kind of like the way some

people use " energy. "

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

>

> > For real? you couldn't just set it aside--in a sealed/sterile or

> > otherwise very clean container--and see if it " turned " , ie, became

> > rancid, fermented, whatever? I mean just look for gross changes?

> > B.

>

> How would that tell you whether there are any enzymes left? His claim

> was that the enzymes are destroyed, not that the it is stinky.

I don't have the appropriate vocabulary to back up my premise, but

what I'm thinking is food in which the enzymes are de-activated will

" stagnate " while enzyme-active food will continue to process and

transform itself. I'm thinking raw milk vs. ultra-pasteurized sitting

in a sealed container on the counter. I'm thinking of fresh,

unadulterated produce vs. irradiated produce--can you help me with an

explanation?

Re: honey, I think it's not the enzymes so much as the moisture

content. If water is added/gets in, the honey will ferment, which is

undesirable for the producer/seller. It is actually the moisture

content that causes the vco to ferment/go bad. The moisture needs to

be maximally removed for optimal shelf-stability.

I suppose it's somehow interacting with the free-fatty acids?

I'm in over my head but would like to understand.

B.

[Guest guest]

> I don't understand what you don't understand. Honey is loaded with

> enzymes, and is incredibly shelf-stable.

That's not something unique about honey--another factor? What other

foods are enzyme-active and shelf-stable? Isn't that why they

pasteurize/heat-process canned foods commercially--to de-activate the

enzymes for shelf-stability? I feel lame in this exchange, because my

need to " get it " seems precarious.

> Usually when people refer to an oil's shelf-stability, what is at

> issue is rancidity, which is caused by the oxidation of fats, and has

> nothing to do with enzymes. In fact one of the primary factors that

> can *cause* rancidity -- heat -- also causes the destruction of

> enzymes.

Isn't that two different mechanisms? The heat causing a breakdown of

the oil in the one and the enzymes being a metabolic action in the other?

> I have no idea whether a) it has a significant quanity of enzymes

> whether those enzymes are of any value or c) whether Aajunas has any

> idea what he's talking about when he says they are destroyed at 96

> degrees. It's possible that all three are correct, but I don't know

> one way or another.

stumped.

> I really have no idea. I think sometimes " enzymes " is just a buzz

> word people use to mean anything or nothing, kind of like the way some

> people use " energy. "

Most definitely.

B.

[Guest guest]

Don't know if this is helpful or not, but I just read in Charcuterie

that solid fat preserves meat because it keeps out the air. You can

preserve a duck cooked in its own fat for 6 months if the fat stays

solid and all the meat is submerged. Coconut oil is solid at room

temp...

>

> I don't have the appropriate vocabulary to back up my premise, but

> what I'm thinking is food in which the enzymes are de-activated

will

> " stagnate " while enzyme-active food will continue to process and

> transform itself. I'm thinking raw milk vs. ultra-pasteurized

sitting

> in a sealed container on the counter. I'm thinking of fresh,

> unadulterated produce vs. irradiated produce--can you help me with

an

> explanation?

>

> Re: honey, I think it's not the enzymes so much as the moisture

> content. If water is added/gets in, the honey will ferment, which

is

> undesirable for the producer/seller. It is actually the moisture

> content that causes the vco to ferment/go bad. The moisture

needs to

> be maximally removed for optimal shelf-stability.

>

> I suppose it's somehow interacting with the free-fatty acids?

> I'm in over my head but would like to understand.

> B.

>

[Guest guest]

On 4/26/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> I don't have the appropriate vocabulary to back up my premise, but

> what I'm thinking is food in which the enzymes are de-activated will

> " stagnate " while enzyme-active food will continue to process and

> transform itself.

I disagree with your premise. Also, you're not differentiating

between " deactivating " and " destroying. " Enzymes do not stay

permanently active. In the normal course of life, enzymes are

constantly activating and deactivating. So there could be enzymes in

a given food that have no activity whatsoever and then become active

when they are eaten.

> I'm thinking raw milk vs. ultra-pasteurized sitting

> in a sealed container on the counter.

It doesn't last longer because it has less enzymes. It lasts longer

because it has less bacteria.

> I'm thinking of fresh,

> unadulterated produce vs. irradiated produce--can you help me with an

> explanation?

The purpose of the irradiation is not, to my knowledge, to destroy

enzymes, but to destroy microorganisms.

The plants enzymes are going to be in compartments somewhere where

they are locked away to carry out specific functions. Perhaps when

the plant dies some are released to engage in self-destruction; I'm

not sure. But definitely there are living mircororganisms that are

eating the plant when it spoils, and I think that's probably what's

primarily going on.

There is some enzyme activity in plants that goes on though. For

example a ripened fruit has less sucrose and more glucose and fructose

because of some active sucrase usually.

> Re: honey, I think it's not the enzymes so much as the moisture

> content. If water is added/gets in, the honey will ferment, which is

> undesirable for the producer/seller. It is actually the moisture

> content that causes the vco to ferment/go bad. The moisture needs to

> be maximally removed for optimal shelf-stability.

This contradicts the idea that the enzymes are reponsible for the

instability. If honey can have all those enzymes and be shelf-stable,

why can't coconut oil?

> I suppose it's somehow interacting with the free-fatty acids?

> I'm in over my head but would like to understand.

Usually moisture breeds bacteria and mold. I'm not sure what the

issue is with the free fatty acids but I assume that they oxidize more

easily than triglycerides.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

,

> > I don't understand what you don't understand. Honey is loaded with

> > enzymes, and is incredibly shelf-stable.

>

> That's not something unique about honey--another factor? What other

> foods are enzyme-active and shelf-stable?

There aren't many foods with the shelf stability of honey. Coconut

oil may or may not be an example. I don't know. Honey is honored for

its enzyme content by enzyme enthusiasts, which is why I know it is

enzyme rich. I don't know if other foods like fats and oils or other

things that are shelf-stable without damaging processing also contain

enzymes, but perhaps much less of them.

> Isn't that why they

> pasteurize/heat-process canned foods commercially--to de-activate the

> enzymes for shelf-stability? I feel lame in this exchange, because my

> need to " get it " seems precarious.

No, the purpose of pasteurization is to kill bacteria.

> > Usually when people refer to an oil's shelf-stability, what is at

> > issue is rancidity, which is caused by the oxidation of fats, and has

> > nothing to do with enzymes. In fact one of the primary factors that

> > can *cause* rancidity -- heat -- also causes the destruction of

> > enzymes.

>

> Isn't that two different mechanisms? The heat causing a breakdown of

> the oil in the one and the enzymes being a metabolic action in the other?

Yes. That's my point: the shelf stability of an oil has nothing to do

with its enzyme content.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

T...

maybe it's been awhile since you've ordered, but boy, I didn't find

the QFI price to be excellent. They're charging $69.95 per gallon.

Was there some special secret password from a decoder ring that I

should have known about when I phoned them? Sharon

On 4/22/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> >

> ,

> I've been buying centrifuged vco in five-gallon buckets from QFI for

> years and have always loved their oil. WFN used to carry it but

> switched to another, so I can't compare it to what they currently

> sell. QFI is a wholesaler, so the price is excellent--$6/lb for 40#.

>

> Do you buy the traditional fermented or the centrifuged from WFN?

> VCO, right--not expeller-pressed?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> T...

> maybe it's been awhile since you've ordered, but boy, I didn't find

> the QFI price to be excellent. They're charging $69.95 per gallon.

> Was there some special secret password from a decoder ring that I

> should have known about when I phoned them?

Sharon,

Maybe the excellent price only comes with five-gallon buckets? Too

bad. $234 is what I pay for 5-gallons/40# and that price includes

shipping. Is there anyone you can split it with?

Yes, I just called QFI and they confirmed those prices. It's good for

years, if you can come up with the $$.

Dave Wetzel has a comparable price on vco so maybe call him? I'm not

sure why his coconut oil is so cheap, since the other oils they sell

are dear, but it is a very nice oil. His website is down today so

maybe call and ask...oh, they are hard to reach right now the message

says, so leave a message, argh. 402-338-5551

tb

[Guest guest]

T....

I'm getting grumpy with them all. (Not with you.) No, the " excellent "

price still is $40 higher for 5 gallons when compared to my usual

5-gallon purchase from WFN. It isn't money that is stalling my

decision. It's that I'm tired of hearing people compare taste, smell,

and looks of these oils, but nobody talks about what's in 'em. I've

decided to truly be anal and put together an extensive nutritional

analysis sheet on their %'s only because I haven't found any

information. So far, I only have Mountain Rose and Wilderness Family.

QFI is going to email me something, " they think - if they can find

it " , and TT (no phone, no information on site) and GP (answering

machine because they're out " a lot until July) it doesn't look like

I'll get anything concrete. Grrrrrrrrr............. Here's what I

have so far. Oh, and for other interesting comparisons, I'm also

asking them if their CO is cold-pressed from the copra (Mountain

Rose), or from fermented milk (as is WFN):

Lauric - 42.5% MRH 57.1 WFN

Capric Acid 6-11% MRH 6% WFN

Caprylic- 5-9% MRH 7.6 WFN

Lauric- 42-52% MRH 57.1% WFN

Linoleic- 14% MRH 0 WFN

Myristic- 13-20% MRH 16.5 WFN

Oleic- 3-12% MRH 3.7 WFN

Palmitic- 8-14% MRH 6.4 WFN

Stearic fatty acid 1-3% MRH 0% WFN

IF ANYONE has any figures and suppliers to add to these, I'd truly be

grateful.

Sharon, Anal and Neurotic in NH

[Guest guest]

Glorybee foods sell coconut oil. I haven't ordered from them. I was planning to,

but maybe I'll wait for your list to be complete. Also, Louana sells CO in

Walmart now. It's the processed stuff. People are gonna buy it by the truckloads

and not realize it probably isn't any better than regular canola oil. Or is it?

Sharon son <skericson@...> wrote: T....

I'm getting grumpy with them all. (Not with you.) No, the " excellent "

price still is $40 higher for 5 gallons when compared to my usual

5-gallon purchase from WFN. It isn't money that is stalling my

decision. It's that I'm tired of hearing people compare taste, smell,

and looks of these oils, but nobody talks about what's in 'em. I've

decided to truly be anal and put together an extensive nutritional

analysis sheet on their %'s only because I haven't found any

information. So far, I only have Mountain Rose and Wilderness Family.

QFI is going to email me something, " they think - if they can find

it " , and TT (no phone, no information on site) and GP (answering

machine because they're out " a lot until July) it doesn't look like

I'll get anything concrete. Grrrrrrrrr............. Here's what I

have so far. Oh, and for other interesting comparisons, I'm also

asking them if their CO is cold-pressed from the copra (Mountain

Rose), or from fermented milk (as is WFN):

Lauric - 42.5% MRH 57.1 WFN

Capric Acid 6-11% MRH 6% WFN

Caprylic- 5-9% MRH 7.6 WFN

Lauric- 42-52% MRH 57.1% WFN

Linoleic- 14% MRH 0 WFN

Myristic- 13-20% MRH 16.5 WFN

Oleic- 3-12% MRH 3.7 WFN

Palmitic- 8-14% MRH 6.4 WFN

Stearic fatty acid 1-3% MRH 0% WFN

IF ANYONE has any figures and suppliers to add to these, I'd truly be

grateful.

Sharon, Anal and Neurotic in NH

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/5/2006 4:05:31 PM Central Daylight Time,

skericson@... writes:

> Sharon, Anal and Neurotic in NH

>

Aaah,......now I know why I love this group so much! Sharon, you go girl! C

R

[Guest guest]

On 6/5/06, DAVID A BOONE wrote:

>

> Also, Louana sells CO in Walmart now. It's the processed stuff. People

> are gonna buy it by the truckloads and not realize it probably isn't any

> better than regular canola oil. Or is it?

>

>

It should still be much better than canola oil. According to at

Tropical Traditions, all tests that have ever been run on coconut oil and

how good it is for you (the breakdown of fats, etc) were run using the

cheapest, junkiest stuff out there. So when we buy the good stuff it's just

that much better! :-)

Steph

--

http://www.PraiseMoves.com

The Christian Alternative to Yoga

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> IF ANYONE has any figures and suppliers to add to these, I'd truly be

> grateful.

>

This is the one Bruce Fife pushes these days (I know nothing about it):

http://www.simplycoconut.com/coconut_oil.htm

And the new Mexicorganic: http://www.coconutoilorganics.com/

Sharon, Anal and Neurotic in NH

>

You're in good company around here! LOL.

Steph

--

http://www.PraiseMoves.com

The Christian Alternative to Yoga

[Guest guest]

>

> T....

> I'm getting grumpy with them all. (Not with you.) No, the " excellent "

> price still is $40 higher for 5 gallons when compared to my usual

> 5-gallon purchase from WFN. It isn't money that is stalling my

> decision. It's that I'm tired of hearing people compare taste, smell,

> and looks of these oils, but nobody talks about what's in 'em. I've

> decided to truly be anal and put together an extensive nutritional

> analysis sheet on their %'s only because I haven't found any

> information. So far, I only have Mountain Rose and Wilderness Family.

> QFI is going to email me something, " they think - if they can find

> it " , and TT (no phone, no information on site) and GP (answering

> machine because they're out " a lot until July) it doesn't look like

> I'll get anything concrete. Grrrrrrrrr............. Here's what I

> have so far. Oh, and for other interesting comparisons, I'm also

> asking them if their CO is cold-pressed from the copra (Mountain

> Rose), or from fermented milk (as is WFN):

>

> Lauric - 42.5% MRH 57.1 WFN

>

> Capric Acid 6-11% MRH 6% WFN

>

> Caprylic- 5-9% MRH 7.6 WFN

>

> Lauric- 42-52% MRH 57.1% WFN

>

> Linoleic- 14% MRH 0 WFN

>

> Myristic- 13-20% MRH 16.5 WFN

>

> Oleic- 3-12% MRH 3.7 WFN

>

> Palmitic- 8-14% MRH 6.4 WFN

>

> Stearic fatty acid 1-3% MRH 0% WFN

>

> IF ANYONE has any figures and suppliers to add to these, I'd truly be

> grateful.

>

> Sharon,

Have you gone on the coconut oil open forum?

Coconut Oil/

there are a number of coco oil vendors on there and they'll surely

share info with you. It's an infuriating list, because no one trims

their posts, but people are amiable and Dr. Magat is a wonderful man.

Bruce Fife is on there, too, and he's helpful without trying to drum

up business, which is somewhat rare ime.

Are you getting a special discount price from WFN for 5-gallons? When

I looked up the prices just now on their website I saw $225 for

centrifuged and $205 for fermented Philippine oil. Those prices do

not include shipping, so what's your dealio?

Good to know that MRH is made from copra since people have been

wondering why it's so cheap. Thank you for doing this!

I'll contact Mexicorganico, too.

tb

[Guest guest]

> This is the one Bruce Fife pushes these days (I know nothing about it):

> http://www.simplycoconut.com/coconut_oil.htm

>

> Steph

>

>

BTW, I didn't mean " pushes " in an ugly way. It's just the word that popped

into my head.

Steph :-P

[Guest guest]

T....

No, I haven't been to the coconut oil forum yet - only to this group and a

small private group. I didn't want to warn resellers about my project and

have 'em run for the hills.

So far, the people I've talked to have the " inside track " at the companies

that sell CO. I've been intrigued that they aren't as " up " on some of the

details as I'd like them to be. Then again, maybe I'm not seeing priorities

like they do. As one of them told me, " there are only 3 manufacturers in

the Philippines. You go, you check 'em out, they seem traditional, you go

with them. " When I asked about nutritional content of his oil, he said my

best bet was to look up nutritional content at the USDA site because a

coconut is a coconut is a coconut. Hmmmm. I asked how his oil was

filtered to remove free fatty acids. He didn't think free fatty acids

needed to be removed. Hmmmmm. He did tell me it sounded like I knew my

stuff. Hmmmmmm.....

We discussed labs - how nutritional reports may vary according to labs that

are used. This is a valid point from my own experience in making my own pet

food. Then again, there's still much to be said about the idea THEY would

go to the effort of paying, or not paying out the Big Bucks for nutritional

analysis of fatty acids. So there's a mentality I've run into of, " it

tastes good, smells good, presents itself well " vs " it tastes good, smells

good, presents itself well and wow, let's look at what it offers

nutritionally " that, imo, is very telling. I want commitment. I want

someone who knows their product inside and out. For the prices we all pay,

I don't think that's too much to ask when we're helping to build their

businesses and giving them this opportunity. People buying this level of

product aren't your Shaw's, Albertson's, Happy-With-Spectrum-Oil-Garbage

person.....okay, I digress.....

Mexicorganics fatty acid analysis would be REALLY intriguing. When I think

of paying $0.78 an ounce for their product vs $0.35 ounce for WFN (12 - 16

oz jars for $150 vs. 5 gallons for $225), I'm thinking they'd better have

gold dust in there. Yowzers.

My " delio " from WFN is that if you sign up for their wholesaler or " Buyer's

Club " program, you get a better price. Granted, they require a minimum

order - I think it's $150 for wholersaler, and $300 for Buyer's Club. They

also have a free shipment program. I keep going back to WFN because they

just seem to get it - all of it - right. I adore their CO and RPO - eat it

by the spoonful. When you talk with them, they can talk FA's, they can talk

filtering FFA's, they can talk fermented CO, or centrifuge, and they try

really hard to adjust their pricing by offering the buyer club programs,

free shipping, etc. I'm not affiliated with them. I'm getting to that

stage in life where I'm understanding what it means to be around the block a

time or two. I'm sick of spending money to R & D other people's business

ventures, only to find out they didn't do their homework, or they have

fallen into something just because of timing and are just slicker

marketers....thanks for listening.

Sharon, NH

" Have you gone on the coconut oil open forum?

>

> Coconut Oil/

>

> there are a number of coco oil vendors on there and they'll surely

> share info with you. It's an infuriating list, because no one trims

> their posts, but people are amiable and Dr. Magat is a wonderful man.

> Bruce Fife is on there, too, and he's helpful without trying to drum

> up business, which is somewhat rare ime.

>

> Are you getting a special discount price from WFN for 5-gallons? When

> I looked up the prices just now on their website I saw $225 for

> centrifuged and $205 for fermented Philippine oil. Those prices do

> not include shipping, so what's your dealio?

>

> Good to know that MRH is made from copra since people have been

> wondering why it's so cheap. Thank you for doing this!

> I'll contact Mexicorganico, too. "

> tb

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> T....

> No, I haven't been to the coconut oil forum yet - only to this group

and a

> small private group. I didn't want to warn resellers about my

project and

> have 'em run for the hills.

>

> So far, the people I've talked to have the " inside track " at the

companies

> that sell CO. I've been intrigued that they aren't as " up " on some

of the

> details as I'd like them to be. Then again, maybe I'm not seeing

priorities

> like they do. As one of them told me, " there are only 3

manufacturers in

> the Philippines. You go, you check 'em out, they seem traditional,

you go

> with them. " When I asked about nutritional content of his oil, he

said my

> best bet was to look up nutritional content at the USDA site because a

> coconut is a coconut is a coconut. Hmmmm. I asked how his oil was

> filtered to remove free fatty acids. He didn't think free fatty acids

> needed to be removed. Hmmmmm. He did tell me it sounded like I

knew my

> stuff. Hmmmmmm.....

>

> We discussed labs - how nutritional reports may vary according to

labs that

> are used. This is a valid point from my own experience in making my

own pet

> food. Then again, there's still much to be said about the idea

THEY would

> go to the effort of paying, or not paying out the Big Bucks for

nutritional

> analysis of fatty acids. So there's a mentality I've run into of, " it

> tastes good, smells good, presents itself well " vs " it tastes good,

smells

> good, presents itself well and wow, let's look at what it offers

> nutritionally " that, imo, is very telling. I want commitment. I want

> someone who knows their product inside and out. For the prices we

all pay,

> I don't think that's too much to ask when we're helping to build their

> businesses and giving them this opportunity. People buying this

level of

> product aren't your Shaw's, Albertson's, Happy-With-Spectrum-Oil-Garbage

> person.....okay, I digress.....

>

> Mexicorganics fatty acid analysis would be REALLY intriguing. When

I think

> of paying $0.78 an ounce for their product vs $0.35 ounce for WFN

(12 - 16

> oz jars for $150 vs. 5 gallons for $225), I'm thinking they'd better

have

> gold dust in there. Yowzers.

>

> My " delio " from WFN is that if you sign up for their wholesaler or

" Buyer's

> Club " program, you get a better price. Granted, they require a minimum

> order - I think it's $150 for wholersaler, and $300 for Buyer's

Club. They

> also have a free shipment program. I keep going back to WFN because they

> just seem to get it - all of it - right. I adore their CO and RPO -

eat it

> by the spoonful. When you talk with them, they can talk FA's, they

can talk

> filtering FFA's, they can talk fermented CO, or centrifuge, and they try

> really hard to adjust their pricing by offering the buyer club programs,

> free shipping, etc. I'm not affiliated with them. I'm getting to that

> stage in life where I'm understanding what it means to be around the

block a

> time or two. I'm sick of spending money to R & D other people's

business

> ventures, only to find out they didn't do their homework, or they have

> fallen into something just because of timing and are just slicker

> marketers....thanks for listening.

>

> Sharon,

I said " vendors " but I meant manufacturers from all over are on that

list. Philippines, Sri Lanka and India, too. Also, Dr. Magat knows

his stuff. Not sure what his title is but he's an official and a

scientist in the world of coconut. Maybe you might write him offlist?

He's very approachable.

Umm, Mexicorganico is expensive because it's such a small operation

and Jim is out there milking coconuts by hand--to order--and trying to

pay the bills. I'm guessing it's just like any tiny business,my own

included, one can't well compete price-wise. I doubt the oil will

have any significant properties other than a certain, unquantifiable

" aloha " .

I like Annette at WFN, too. I've only ever gotten straight info from

her, though, everyone else at WFN was as confused as ever, but thank

goodness she is easy to reach. I've never heard of these discount

programs WFN has. QFI will give a further 10% off if you're a WAPF

chapter leader, but what kind of money you have to spend to qualify

for these clubs at WFN? $150/300 can't be for a one-time purchase,

no? People must spend that in five minutes on their website.

[Guest guest]

< a bunch of stuff>

Shar,

Did you speak to Vinia at QFI? Like Annette, she's the one who knows

what's what. I suppose you did, and it was underwhelming, but just

checking. I sent an email to Mexico.

tb