EVOLUTION: was Re: Salt

[Guest guest]

On 9/12/06, <bible770@...> wrote:

> > He was tried and proven to be a fraud...yet people still bought it, and it

is still

> > >being taught in the science books today.

> > That's an outright lie.

> what part of this is an outright lie?

The part that it is still being taught in science books.

Chris

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> let's see how the out come is......but let's also investigate what he has been

>teaching. I'm sure that if you try, you will definitely be able to

dig up some

>more " dirt " on him. That is of no interest to me. What is of

interest is the truths

>that he has been teaching about evolution. As stated,,,,,,he

is having a

>hard time getting any evolutionist to debate him.

Hovind usually finds himself debating other creationists, like Hugh

Ross. They'll debate whether the earth is only 6,000 years old or

whether it is billions of years old but life is only 6,000.

Most people will not fulfill every request made from them, and in the

case of scientists, they spend most of the time trying to do research,

advance knowledge, and publish their work. To the extent that a small

proportion of scientists would engage in a formal " debate " with anyone

at all, nearly all of them would do so with another scientist whose

work they take seriously. Hovind is neither a scientist nor taken

seriously by scientists. Thus, scientists would not waste their time.

But really, most scientists don't, I don't think, spend their time

" debating " people anyway. They publish their work in the forum of

scientific journals, and focus on supporting or refuting their own

hypotheses.

Chris

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The Truth About Cholesterol

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[Guest guest]

-

All discussions of religion require the RELIGION tag in the subject

line of the message.

>I'm sorry if that offends you, however, it is fact. " For it is

>written, (as I live) saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and

>every tongue shall confess to God so then everyone of us shall give

>an account of himself to God. " Romans 14:11-12

-

[Guest guest]

-

>I think by the emails,,,it is evident who the " evil " one is here.

Ad-hominem rhetoric is NOT ALLOWED ON THIS LIST.

-

[Guest guest]

Was simply defending myself ......and I apologize for that.

Re: EVOLUTION: was Re: Salt

-

>I think by the emails,,,it is evident who the " evil " one is here.

Ad-hominem rhetoric is NOT ALLOWED ON THIS LIST.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Was simply defending myself ......and I apologize for that.

I'm sorry I've been away for a little while and didn't nip this in

the bud earlier, but it's not allowed from anyone, regardless of the

provocation, whether imagined or real, and I'm going to be very firm

about enforcing that from now on.

-

[Guest guest]

It's ok and thank you. I couldn't understand why it got so vicious so quickly,

but no harm done.

Re: EVOLUTION: was Re: Salt

-

>Was simply defending myself ......and I apologize for that.

I'm sorry I've been away for a little while and didn't nip this in

the bud earlier, but it's not allowed from anyone, regardless of the

provocation, whether imagined or real, and I'm going to be very firm

about enforcing that from now on.

-

[Guest guest]

>It shows a picture of one of Haeckel's forged drawings. If Hovind is

>saying this is found in modern textbooks, he is a shameless liar.

unless you have seen every modern textbook, you can't say for sure

that this is a lie. His forged drawings were in my high school biology book

in the late 70's as well as college textbooks after that. I have seen them

in textbooks dating to the mid 90's anyway. I don't know about recent ones

but I can say for sure that these drawings have been used at least in the

last 10 or 12 years.

[Guest guest]

,

> unless you have seen every modern textbook, you can't say for sure

> that this is a lie. His forged drawings were in my high school biology book

> in the late 70's as well as college textbooks after that. I have seen them

> in textbooks dating to the mid 90's anyway. I don't know about recent ones

> but I can say for sure that these drawings have been used at least in the

> last 10 or 12 years.

That's a good point. I've never seen them, but I have only seen a

handful of textbooks. Nevertheless, I'm suspicious that Hovind is

conflating the use of more realistic illustrations of embryology used

to show that all vertebrate embryos, for example, exhibit a stage

wherein they look like all the others. That point is very true, and

the distinction between it and Haeckel's misuse of embryological

illustrations is subtle enough that such a conflation would be very

unsurprising.

You may be right that some textbooks have used it, but I would like to

actually see an example before I believe it. I've read a bit on

evolution, pro and con, since I was a teenager, and I've never seen

anyone use Haeckel's theory or his pictures in support of evolution,

and evolutionists I've read have been quite willing to openly

criticize Haeckel.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 9/12/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> You may be right that some textbooks have used it, but I would like to

> actually see an example before I believe it. I've read a bit on

> evolution, pro and con, since I was a teenager, and I've never seen

> anyone use Haeckel's theory or his pictures in support of evolution,

> and evolutionists I've read have been quite willing to openly

> criticize Haeckel.

Just popping in to admit that I was completely wrong, and Hovind was

not lying. Here is a textbook company admitting their own error which

they did not fix until the late 1990s:

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/embryos/Haeckel.html

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

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[Guest guest]

On 9/13/06, Furbish <efurbish@...> wrote:

> On 9/13/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> > However it occurs, reproductive isolation is necessary for speciation.

>

> I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

Not knowing what a mastiff is, I don't follow. Is this an example of

two breeds of dogs that cannot interbreed?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 9/13/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On 9/13/06, Furbish <efurbish@...> wrote:

> > On 9/13/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> > > However it occurs, reproductive isolation is necessary for speciation.

> >

> > I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

>

> Not knowing what a mastiff is, I don't follow. Is this an example of

> two breeds of dogs that cannot interbreed?

>

> Chris

Just a little jokelet. A mastiff is a huge dog. Size as a

reproductive barrier. Unless you've got a good squatter and a good

jumper, etc.

[Guest guest]

>

>On 9/13/06, Furbish <efurbish@...> wrote:

>> On 9/13/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>> > However it occurs, reproductive isolation is necessary for speciation.

>>

>> I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

>

>Not knowing what a mastiff is, I don't follow. Is this an example of

>two breeds of dogs that cannot interbreed?

This is very coincidental because I also thought of the example of a

Chihuahua mating with a mastiff before posted it. As you know, I have a

Chihuahua, and yesterday, I petted a mastiff, and so mastiffs were on my

mind. Mastiffs are very large dogs. I think they run 100 lbs. or more. They

are a little smaller than great danes judging by the one I saw yesterday,

although I think that might've been a small one. Chihuahua's are typically

between 6-10 lbs. or thereabouts. So the problem with them mating is one of

size. *Maybe* a Chihuahua male could impregnate a Mastiff bitch with help,

but there's no way a Mastiff stud could get his weener into a Chi.

OTOH, I've seen dogs that were the offspring of parents of very disparate

sizes, and assuming they didn't have help, I can't figure out how they did

it!

Suze

[Guest guest]

On 9/13/06, Furbish <efurbish@...> wrote:

> Just a little jokelet. A mastiff is a huge dog. Size as a

> reproductive barrier. Unless you've got a good squatter and a good

> jumper, etc.

Ah, I see. That's less a joke and more a perfect example of how

selective pressure is leading to speciation in dogs.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

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[Guest guest]

At 10:30 AM 9/13/2006, you wrote:

>On 9/13/06, Masterjohn

><<mailto:chrismasterjohn%40gmail.com>chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> > However it occurs, reproductive isolation is necessary for speciation.

>

>I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

I always thought chihuahuas were rodents so they couldn't mate with a mastiff.

[Guest guest]

> > I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

>

>Not knowing what a mastiff is, I don't follow. Is this an example of

>two breeds of dogs that cannot interbreed?

A mastiff is a very large dog, bigger than a St. Bernard if I remember

correctly. The physical act would no doubt be impossible.

[Guest guest]

I don't know; if the Chihuahua was ambitious and got a running start and ...

:-))

then there is always artificial insemination.

Re: Re: EVOLUTION: was Re: Salt

> > I'm thinking: chihuahua and mastiff.

>

>Not knowing what a mastiff is, I don't follow. Is this an example of

>two breeds of dogs that cannot interbreed?

A mastiff is a very large dog, bigger than a St. Bernard if I remember

correctly. The physical act would no doubt be impossible.

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> OTOH, I've seen dogs that were the offspring of parents of very

>disparate sizes, and assuming they didn't have help, I can't figure

out >how they did it!

Well, I have neighbors who had a bitch German Shorthair Pointer and a,

um, a bigger dog that looks Labarodorish. Well, he got fixed, but

they didn't keep her away from him long enough and she got bred. She

died shortly after birth due to complications (she got ripped up, even

with a c-section, I think). I am not vet, and I am sure, Suze, that

you know way more about dogs than I do. But in this case, size was a

factor for disaster, and the size difference was not that great (55

lbs. vs. 85 lbs. about). And it may not have been weight but

dimensions, I dunno. What do you think?

Deanna