Re: skimming the fat in chicken stock - why?

[Guest guest]

, , et al...

But aren't we talking about more than oxygen in regards to oxidation? From

the little I've been reading of dairy fat, for instance, it's not only air

but also acids, agitation, iron and copper salt, and even a difference

between summer and winter feed with summer having a higher (assuming grass

fed here) content of Vitamins A and C which retard oxidation by increasing

micro-organisms (like lactic-acid) which absorb the oxygen, reducing its

effect. So...I know all fats certainly aren't created equal, but I just

can't shake this sense that not all broth is good broth. And yes, it isn't

earth-shattering, but it would be nice to have more information. I spent

enough years with people telling me I was doing the Right Thing, only to

find out it wasn't, and I didn't know enough to question anything then, or

ask for someone to back up their claim.

And as far as free radicals (like iron), they're released from the

heme taking very little heat to encourage them....

And I agree - I continue to have the same question about the number

of hours recommended for stock making.....

Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

>

> But oxygen in the air is elemental oxygen, which is more reactive than

> oxygen covalently bound to hydrogen in water. Have you ever tried to start

> a fire underwater? On the other hand, iron does seem to be perfectly

> capable of oxidizing underwater.

>

> It seems to be generally acknowledged that as far as free radical

> production

> is concerned, slow cooking in water is preferable to high-temperature

> cooking in air. I'm not sure whether this still holds if the slow cooking

> is extended to a period of dozens of hours, though.

>

> --

> Berg

> bberg@...

[Guest guest]

,

> But oxygen in the air is elemental oxygen, which is more reactive than

> oxygen covalently bound to hydrogen in water.

Oxygen is covalently bound in air, as it is in water. The oxygens and

hydrogens of water are pretty available chemically. That's why

putting a non-hydroxide base in water will form quite a bit of

hydroxide, for example. But that's not really the main point, which

is that you don't need oxygen to oxidize something.

> Have you ever tried to start

> a fire underwater?

I think there are more mechanical reasons for that, too. If you

pumped a steady stream of oxygen gas into water, I suspect you'd still

have a hard time combusting anything.

The cell is aqueous, and there is plenty of oxidative damage in there.

> It seems to be generally acknowledged that as far as free radical production

> is concerned, slow cooking in water is preferable to high-temperature

> cooking in air. I'm not sure whether this still holds if the slow cooking

> is extended to a period of dozens of hours, though.

I agree with that, but that doesn't mean no oxidation takes place, or

that it can't take place in water.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Hi,

When you say " soaking the whole mess " are you talking entire carcass or just

the bones? Typically, I've been brining in ACV, sea salt, variety of

aromatics, slices of lemons/oranges and then slow-roasting the bird. Then I

use the bones to make the stock. Curious what your technique is. Thanks!

Sharon, NH

On 1/25/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

> Sharon-

>

> The vinegar pre-soak is essential. (I don't mean soaking the whole

> mess in pure vinegar, just to be clear, but in cold water with some

> vinegar added.) It makes a definite difference in gelling and flavor.

> -

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> The vinegar pre-soak is essential. (I don't mean soaking the whole

> mess in pure vinegar, just to be clear, but in cold water with some

> vinegar added.) It makes a definite difference in gelling and flavor.

I always do the vinegar soak for beef broth, but I find it too strong

a taste for chicken broth. I use white wine instead, and it works

just as well -- the bones are soft after cooking, and the broth gels

and tastes great!

Ann

[Guest guest]

Sharon Conti wrote:

> ,

>

>

>> The vinegar pre-soak is essential. (I don't mean soaking the whole

>> mess in pure vinegar, just to be clear, but in cold water with some

>> vinegar added.) It makes a definite difference in gelling and flavor.

>>

>

> Can you be more specific on what difference it makes in gelling? As for

> flavor, I actually don't care for it which makes me want to understand the

> dynamics better. What happens during the presoak? Is that presoak water

> essential or can it be tossed before turning on the heat?

>

> Thanks,

> Sharon

>

>

You could use lemon juice instead.

Steph

[Guest guest]

Sharon son wrote:

> , , et al...

> But aren't we talking about more than oxygen in regards to oxidation?

> From

> the little I've been reading of dairy fat, for instance, it's not only air

> but also acids, agitation, iron and copper salt, and even a difference

> between summer and winter feed with summer having a higher (assuming grass

> fed here) content of Vitamins A and C which retard oxidation by increasing

> micro-organisms (like lactic-acid) which absorb the oxygen, reducing its

We raise our own chickens. I doubt if they could be better fed. They

are out on grass most of the year. Their housing has deep litter which

provides Vit B12 and K and immune enhancing substances, and some protein

in the case of a " mature " litter. They get greens raised specifically

for them in the greenhouse ( grain grasses-- wheat barley oats and rye

and crucifers) dandilion and yellow dock pulled from lawn and pasture;

as well as sprouted oats, barley, wheat) We buy organic whole grain and

grind it freshly. I say all this so you will understand the

difference between our chicken and one that is just on grass when there

is grass and otherwise gets standard chicken feed from the coop, and

lives in housing with a normal floor.

Recently I made stock from one of the latter chickens and it had a

considerable stale taste or WOF. And I do think all the things that

Sharon points to here made the difference.

So now I amgoing to experiment with my stock making. I recently started

making it in a large slow cooker. It has been wonderfully convenient

for me to do it this way for many reasons. Probably because it is so

convenient, it has also been the case that for one reason or another I

just let it cook for more than the 24 hours I used to do it on the

stove. And, thanks to this discussion, I realize that I have sometimes

come up with a slight bit of that stale taste. So now I do plan to be

very precise about observing the correlation between cooking time and

subtle flavors and also to experiment with 12 hour stocks. I will post

any observations.

Ellen

[Guest guest]

That's a great idea for me, thanks Ann.

> I always do the vinegar soak for beef broth, but I find it too strong

> a taste for chicken broth. I use white wine instead, and it works

> just as well -- the bones are soft after cooking, and the broth gels

> and tastes great!

[Guest guest]

On 1/24/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Sharon-

>

> >When you have time, could you give your " take " on this?

>

> That all makes sense to me, and frankly I was initially highly

> skeptical of the idea that the fat skimmed off of stock could be

> reserved and used for other purposes. I assumed it would be

> dangerous, but Sally insisted it wasn't and I think someone cited

> Enig saying it was safe, so I figured, well, OK, I guess...

<snip>

> -

Along these same lines: would rendered duck fat be similarly high in

PUFA? Where I live they sell a lot of it in little jars for use in

cooking/frying, and it sure does sound appealing considering how

fantastic duck is...

[Guest guest]

Furbish wrote:

>

> Along these same lines: would rendered duck fat be similarly high in

> PUFA? Where I live they sell a lot of it in little jars for use in

> cooking/frying, and it sure does sound appealing considering how

> fantastic duck is...

>

>

Duck and goose have less PUFA, and that will vary depending on how they

were raised. they are wonderful rendered fats. I made spectacular

matzoh balls with goose fat and it is often used in baking too.

Ellen

[Guest guest]

On 1/26/06, Ellen Ussery <ellenjill@...> wrote:

> We raise our own chickens. I doubt if they could be better fed. They

> are out on grass most of the year. Their housing has deep litter which

> provides Vit B12 and K and immune enhancing substances, and some protein

> in the case of a " mature " litter. They get greens raised specifically

> for them in the greenhouse ( grain grasses-- wheat barley oats and rye

> and crucifers) dandilion and yellow dock pulled from lawn and pasture;

> as well as sprouted oats, barley, wheat) We buy organic whole grain and

> grind it freshly. I say all this so you will understand the

> difference between our chicken and one that is just on grass when there

> is grass and otherwise gets standard chicken feed from the coop, and

> lives in housing with a normal floor.

Ellen -

Do your chickens have access to sunlight? If they aren't out in the

sun, it would be good to make sure you have UV lighting, and that

would be good for the winter anyway. They'll probably get vitamin D

from insects to some degree, but they certainly won't get it from

grass or whole grains. If they are indoors, it sounds like that might

the one thing that's missing.

I don't know if that affects the WOF; I'm just speaking to their

general nutritive value.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

After Thanksgiving I made stock from the turkey bones. After

simmering 12 hours I poured off the broth to cool & freeze, but

wondered what would happen if I boiled the bones again. I did and

the second batch of broth was almost as good as the first! I tried

it for a third time, but that one didn't have much flavor. I used

it for Mexican salsa soup - vinegar, salsa, cumin, & veggies. It

doesn't need much flavor for that!

> Recently I made stock from one of the latter chickens and it had

a

> considerable stale taste or WOF. And I do think all the things

that

> Sharon points to here made the difference.

>

> So now I amgoing to experiment with my stock making. I recently

started

> making it in a large slow cooker. It has been wonderfully

convenient

> for me to do it this way for many reasons. Probably because it

is so

> convenient, it has also been the case that for one reason or

another I

> just let it cook for more than the 24 hours I used to do it on the

> stove. And, thanks to this discussion, I realize that I have

sometimes

> come up with a slight bit of that stale taste. So now I do plan to

be

> very precise about observing the correlation between cooking time

and

> subtle flavors and also to experiment with 12 hour stocks. I will

post

> any observations.

>

> Ellen

>

[Guest guest]

On 1/26/06, Ellen Ussery <ellenjill@...> wrote:

> Most of the year they are outside all day. the chicken house has

> skylights and three big doors which have wire screen inner doors, so

> the place has a fair amount sunlight for a good part of the day. We

> only close the solid doors in the bitterest, windiest, wettest weather.

> Recently we also sectioned off part of our greenhouse with two separate

> areas for chickens. These two groups alternate days going out to a

> large area where we a developing a new garden space. They have already

> " tilled " in the sod, now in winter it is covered with a thick layer of

> mulch hay that will absorb their poops, keep the ground from freezing so

> that underneath it the chickens will find worms, slugs and seeds.

Outside works well, depending on latitude, but don't count on the

windows doing any good. Only specialized glass allows UV in from my

understanding. During the vitamin D winter, it's probably best to

provide UV-B emitting light for them in doors, because unless you live

very far south there is probably a substantial part of the year where

producing vitamin D is impossible. On the other hand, if their diet

is very rich in insects that might provide a continual source. I have

no idea how insects make their vitamin D.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

The tape Sally made for the conference in DC for 2004 said to skim off

the stuff that floated to the top - that it was really nasty. But I

never can see anything to skim so I never have and have probably

poisoned myself. However, if you have done the skimming during cooking,

it seems to me that the fat that is in the broth that floats and

hardens after cooled is probably good.

On Jan 26, 2006, at 8:03 AM, Furbish wrote:

>> That all makes sense to me, and frankly I was initially highly

>> skeptical of the idea that the fat skimmed off of stock could be

>> reserved and used for other purposes. I assumed it would be

>> dangerous, but Sally insisted it wasn't and I think someone cited

>> Enig saying it was safe, so I figured, well, OK, I guess...

> <snip>

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

Ellen!

I LOVED reading about your poultry! In fact, it didn't occur to me, until

reading about their diet, that I should be as chicken, so to speak, about

the possibility of raising poultry. Your diet sounds like the same one I've

been feeding my Macaws for nearly 10 years, specifically, the sprouts. I'm

encouraged that without a huge fuss, I could just make double the batch! I

really look foward to hearing about your research project with the stock. A

friend of ours lost her entire flock of chickens this week to weasels. I'm

sure I don't have to describe the scene to you - brutal. We have tons of

predators here so that is the one major drawback in having chickens. I

couldn't bear what my friend had to go through this week. Anyway, looking

foward to hearing your results, and if you have any predator-proof coop

ideas, would love those, too!

Sharon, NH

On 1/26/06, Ellen Ussery <ellenjill@...> wrote:

>

> So now I do plan to be

> very precise about observing the correlation between cooking time and

> subtle flavors and also to experiment with 12 hour stocks. I will post

> any observations.

>

> Ellen

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

Ohhhh weasels! The first batch of chix that we got through the mail and

carefully brooded were decimated by one little weasel. I found them.

What an intro to farm life. We weasel proofed that chicken house and

never had another problem. dh, aka Chicken Man of Hume caught him, and

after killing him used his head to measure cracks in the walls that

needed to be sealed up. You can check out our website www.

themodernhomestead.us. for lots of chicken info. He is about to write

an article for it on predator control, but if you want some info now you

can ask him specific questions Harvey Ussery ; huboxwood@...

I have a lot of chicken stock on hand right now. So it will be a little

while before i start my experiments. usually the problem is I don't have

enough!

Ellen

Sharon son wrote:

> Ellen!

> I LOVED reading about your poultry! In fact, it didn't occur to me, until

> reading about their diet, that I should be as chicken, so to speak, about

> the possibility of raising poultry. Your diet sounds like the same

> one I've

> been feeding my Macaws for nearly 10 years, specifically, the

> sprouts. I'm

> encouraged that without a huge fuss, I could just make double the

> batch! I

> really look foward to hearing about your research project with the

> stock. A

> friend of ours lost her entire flock of chickens this week to

> weasels. I'm

> sure I don't have to describe the scene to you - brutal. We have tons of

> predators here so that is the one major drawback in having chickens. I

> couldn't bear what my friend had to go through this week. Anyway, looking

> foward to hearing your results, and if you have any predator-proof coop

> ideas, would love those, too!

> Sharon, NH

[Guest guest]

We have a completely enclosed cage they go into at night. It even

has a 1/2 " X 1/4 " wire floor. During the day they run loose. We've

lost one to hawks - a " tophat " one - should have known she couldn't

see a hawk coming. During the daylight they seem to be able to take

care of themselves, as long as there's cover. Having a rooster

would help as he'd watch for predators and raise the alarm, but

alas, we're in the 'burbs. After a week of herding them in for the

night, they all go in on their own at dusk. We just go shut the

door.

- Renate, PA

> >

> > So now I do plan to be

> > very precise about observing the correlation between cooking

time and

> > subtle flavors and also to experiment with 12 hour stocks. I

will post

> > any observations.

> >

> > Ellen

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Renate

My friends were missing the wire floor. They had a nice enclosed area with

perches with a door that could be closed at night. The weasels dug under

the enclosure, up through the floor of the coop and massacred them all. In

the past 8 years, they'd lost an occasional hen to a fox, coyote or hawk,

but nothing on this scale. The goal is to install a wire floor this

summer. The thing is - all 20 were " pets " , not even a single egg going

toward the good of the family. I've tried to gently suggest to my friend

that should they invest in upgrading the coop and getting new chickens, if

they shouldn't consider using them for more than " pets " . It was hard for me

to see the eggs going to waste. They hadn't been picked up in a timely

fashion, so it wasn't even possible for me to ask for eggs, not knowing

which were safe to eat.

Sharon, NH

On 1/28/06, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

>

> We have a completely enclosed cage they go into at night. It even

> has a 1/2 " X 1/4 " wire floor. During the day they run loose. We've

> lost one to hawks - a " tophat " one - should have known she couldn't

> see a hawk coming. During the daylight they seem to be able to take

> care of themselves, as long as there's cover. Having a rooster

> would help as he'd watch for predators and raise the alarm, but

> alas, we're in the 'burbs. After a week of herding them in for the

> night, they all go in on their own at dusk. We just go shut the

> door.

>

> - Renate, PA

>

>

> > >

> > > So now I do plan to be

> > > very precise about observing the correlation between cooking

> time and

> > > subtle flavors and also to experiment with 12 hour stocks. I

> will post

> > > any observations.

> > >

> > > Ellen

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Typos....blasted typos....

They SHOULD consider using them for mroe than " pets " ....

Sharon,NH

On 1/28/06, Sharon son <skericson@...> wrote:

>

> I've tried to gently suggest to my friend that should they invest in

> upgrading the coop and getting new chickens, if they shouldn't consider

> using them for more than " pets " . It was hard for me to see the eggs going

> to waste. They hadn't been picked up in a timely fashion, so it wasn't even

> possible for me to ask for eggs, not knowing which were safe to eat.

> Sharon, NH

>

>

[Guest guest]

But when I am going to use the stock I throw out the fat. I

>really feel that it isn't good to eat because during that long slow

>cooking the fat has oxidized.

Ellen,

The CLO most of us consume has been heated to 170 *C* or higher. Stocks only

get heated to 100 C (the boiling point). And the peroxide level of Blue Ice

is less than 1% after the processing, when it goes into the drums. I don't

recall if it's heated to this level before or after the vits are removed,

and of course the vits help protect it. But I've even seen an assay for fish

oil, or very low vitamin CLO that was heated to 180-190 C and the peroxide

level was 1. Not that *any* peroxide level is good, but fish oil and low

vitamin CLO have a much higher peroxide index than chicken fat, which is

mostly linoleic acid, having only 2 double bonds, rather than 5 and 6

respctively for EPA and DHA in fish oil and CLO.

Although posted something about an anomoly in the peroxide index I

think in regards to EPA and DHA now that I think of it, so I could be wrong.

I used to skim the fat myself until I tasted some chicken stock that my

brother made in which he didn't skim the fat and it tasted better than any

stock I'd previously made. Just like in all other animal foods, it seems

that the fat makes the flavor!

However, the culinary tradition is to remove it, which is why I think Sally

suggests doing so in NT.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>>One of my biggest grumbles about Fallon is the lack of backing things up.

>>Granted, they do offer a lot of resources in NT and on WAP, but

>still, (and

>>this is probably just me), it's never enough, especially in the " no no "

>>areas.

>

>I do agree, because when staking out a position in dramatic

>opposition to the mainstream view, it's essential to offer impeccable

>support for every aspect of it, but given the magnitude of the WAPF

>project and the paucity of their resources, I do think we can

>probably cut them some slack from time to time. Not on egregious

>matters like the dying calves, but this doesn't strike me as being of

>nearly the same magnitude.

Ahem, after I badgered Sally (with help from I think?) about the

inaccuracy of the " calves fed pasteurized milk die before maturity "

statement in the WAPF literature, Sally agreed to change it. This was on the

chapterleaders list, btw. She said she'd give a copy of NT to anyone who

came up with more accurate wording to reflect the results of the study

cited, but I think we were all too busy, so she changed it herself in the

brochures. I'm not sure if it appears anywhere else, but hopefully she

remembered to change it wherever it appears.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 1/30/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Ahem, after I badgered Sally (with help from I think?) about the

> inaccuracy of the " calves fed pasteurized milk die before maturity "

> statement in the WAPF literature, Sally agreed to change it.

I don't think I was a primary agitator in this, but I think everyone

is totally exaggerating WAPF's fault in this. The point is that when

calf's are fed ONLY pasteurize milk, they die. The profound value of

this observation is not contradicted by the fact that pasteurized milk

produces calves quite fine if their diets are supplemented. Or do I

still have the facts wrong?

If my understanding is correct, it was really a technicality of the

wording that was causing the problem. And I agree that the statement

should have been reformulated.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

Suze,

> Not that *any* peroxide level is good,

I'm not sure exactly what to make of this, but for what it's worth,

the original vitamin D test, which Price used for activator X

afterwards, was a test for peroxides. The test generally indicated

that if it didn't have peroxides, it didn't have vitamin D, and if it

had vitamin D, the amount of vitamin D corresponded to the peroxides.

This was a specific test for the evolution of peroxide fumes from the

liquid. I'm not sure precisely what type of peroxide this tested for.

> but fish oil and low

> vitamin CLO have a much higher peroxide index than chicken fat, which is

> mostly linoleic acid, having only 2 double bonds, rather than 5 and 6

> respctively for EPA and DHA in fish oil and CLO.

>

> Although posted something about an anomoly in the peroxide index I

> think in regards to EPA and DHA now that I think of it, so I could be wrong.

Yes, but that's in vivo. You can't, at all, compare peroxidation in

the bottle to peroxidation in the cell.

In the cell, the curve is concave down rather than linear, meaning

each additional double-bond increases the peroxidizability, but not as

much as the last double-bond did.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

What is the bottom line about chicken fat from slow cooking for broth

and what about the skin from regular cooking that Sally says to eat

since it contains a lot of the vitamins?

On Jan 30, 2006, at 3:42 PM, Suze Fisher wrote:

> The CLO most of us consume has been heated to 170 *C* or higher.

> Stocks only

> get heated to 100 C (the boiling point). And the peroxide level of

> Blue Ice

> is less than 1% after the processing, when it goes into the drums. I

> don't

> recall if it's heated to this level before or after the vits are

> removed,

> and of course the vits help protect it. But I've even seen an assay

> for fish

> oil, or very low vitamin CLO that was heated to 180-190 C and the

> peroxide

> level was 1. Not that *any* peroxide level is good, but fish oil and

> low

> vitamin CLO have a much higher peroxide index than chicken fat, which

> is

> mostly linoleic acid, having only 2 double bonds, rather than 5 and 6

> respctively for EPA and DHA in fish oil and CLO.

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Ahem, after I badgered Sally (with help from I think?) about the

>inaccuracy of the " calves fed pasteurized milk die before maturity "

>statement in the WAPF literature, Sally agreed to change it.

Oh, good news! The last time I remember it being discussed here,

which admittedly was quite awhile ago, her response was that she saw

no reason to change it.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>The point is that when

>calf's are fed ONLY pasteurize milk, they die. The profound value of

>this observation is not contradicted by the fact that pasteurized milk

>produces calves quite fine if their diets are supplemented. Or do I

>still have the facts wrong?

I believe your recollection is exactly correct, but the detail of

phrasing is massively important, because the original phrasing

implied that pasteurized milk is some kind of potent poison, and its

obvious and easily verifiable incorrectness undermined the

credibility of the entire raw milk campaign.

-