Another newbie

[Guest guest]

Hi,

When I was finally diagnosed with PA, I was concerned about taking drugs at such

a young

age (early 30's - I will be 46 in July). I opted for the least amount of

whatever I could take.

This actually turned out to be the wrong course of action as taking a chance

with the

stronger drugs, even with the negative side affects would have prevented a lot

of the

damage I have encountered. I have never taken time off from work because of this

disease

but there have been times when my coworkers have commented on how bad or run

down I

looked. I am now on Enbrel. I can totally relate to the way you are dealing with

this

disease. I have many days when I could just lay there but I feel that this is

self defeating

behavior. Mentally, I feel better when I stay active because your mind tends not

to focus on

the pain if you can distract it with other activities. I also believe that

exersize is essential

to combating the disease. I do not adhere to no pain no gain but do beleive in

use it or

lose it with regard to your joints. I have the P pretty much under control with

light therapy

from my Dermatologist.

Good luck with whatever course of treatment you decide to use,

Tom in Anchorage with mixed rain and snow on Valentines day! Great driving

weather for

the ride to work in the morning!

>

> Hi All,

>

> I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for

> me though.

> I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle,

> neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time

> getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no

> strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone

> stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a

> week.

>

> I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of

> emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am

> amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high

> pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed

> Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my

> liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do

> take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past

> nights.

>

> I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything

> thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so.

>

> Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold

> anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than

> anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by

> harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I

> want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I

> have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings,

> I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal

> daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved.

> You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o)

>

> Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that

> has a physical job and is dealing with this?

>

>

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:29:04 -0000, tr1rt <tr1rt@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi,

> When I was finally diagnosed with PA, I was concerned about taking drugs at

such a young

> age (early 30's - I will be 46 in July). I opted for the least amount of

whatever I could take.

>

> [snip]

>

> Tom in Anchorage with mixed rain and snow on Valentines day! Great driving

weather for

> the ride to work in the morning!

>

>

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for

> > me though.

> > I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle,

> > neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time

> > getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no

> > strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone

> > stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a

> > week.

> >

> > Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that

> > has a physical job and is dealing with this?

> >

> > {snip}

> >

> > Pete

>

Thanks all for the info, quite informing. I guess to fill you in a

little more on my condition:

I also have Psoriasis on my elbows and shins, that is about all. Yes,

this gets quite painful at times. As far as a Dr, havent been to a

rhumo in about 20 years. We live 120 miles from a city, where there

are somewhat real doctors. We have no health insurance, which isnt a

bad thing, except maybe in this case.

Reading a little also, about not being sick and PA attacking the

auto-immune system. A few years back, it was just getting to be

calving time. I was getting quite busy with my job. I started not

feeling well. 101 fever, and getting out of bed and going to the

couch was all I could do for the whole day. After about 4 weeks of

this, I went to the local Dr. After a month of tests, it was decide

that I should see an Oncologist, for fear of Lymphoma....yippee! Bone

marrow aspiration was next (ANOTHER story) and that would be the

conclusive test.

To make a long story short...,.Mononucleosis is what it was. They had

misplaced my bloodtest (yet ANOTHER story). For the first time

thinking of it, I wonder if PA could have had something to do withme

getting Mono? After all, at 40 I think it was, you generally dont get

Mono.

Interesting read about the biologic drugs for sure. Ranch hand wages

would never allow me to go this route though. No complaint really, it

is the lifestyle we enjoy.

Thanks for all the info.

--

Pete

http://milneweb.com

http://nomorevirus.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete, I am 36 and was diagnosed when I was 33 with PA - although I have had

the arthritis for as long as I can remember (around 20 probably) My doctor will

give me any medicine but I only take it when I absolutely have too. I have two

young children and have to get up and go every day!! What works for me is

lifting moderate weights and moderate cardio every day and the tanning bed!!!

Believe it or not the tanning bed takes the edge off of the arthritis pain and

helps prevent the P. I wonder if I am doing myself harm by not taking the drugs,

though....Good Luck,

Pete <pmilne@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for

me though.

I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle,

neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time

getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no

strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone

stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a

week.

I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of

emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am

amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high

pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed

Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my

liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do

take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past

nights.

I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything

thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so.

Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold

anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than

anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by

harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I

want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I

have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings,

I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal

daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved.

You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o)

Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that

has a physical job and is dealing with this?

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

I was first diagnosed with arthritis (in my case it was rheumatoid)

when I was 16. I am now 55. I spent many years convincing myself

that I was too young to be on medication so I toyed with various

diets, I swam a great deal, etc. Unfortunately, by delaying getting

the medications that would actually help me, I ended up with a great

deal of permanent damage from the disease (finally diagnosed as PA a

few years ago). There are medications today that not only deal with

current painful symptoms but which also stem the spread of the

disease. They don't work for everyone but they work for many. How I

wish I could turn the clock back and take meds that actually work

instead of spending years toying with things that were too mild - and

too ineffective - to contain the spread of the disease and ease the

pain.

Wishing you wellness,

Kathy F.

>

> Hi All,

>

> I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place

for

> me though.

> I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle,

> neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time

> getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no

> strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let

alone

> stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a

> week.

>

> I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of

> emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am

> amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a

high

> pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed

> Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check

my

> liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I

do

> take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past

> nights.

>

> I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything

> thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so.

>

> Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold

> anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than

> anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by

> harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I

> want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I

> have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most)

mornings,

> I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop

normal

> daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is

involved.

> You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o)

>

> Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that

> has a physical job and is dealing with this?

>

>

>

> Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

This IS the place for you to be in most ways.

Although many folks here are treating their PA with a variety of

drugs (I'm one using MTX), you will find support, suggestions and at

least folks that will listen. I too hated the thought (still do) of

taking drugs, sometimes lots, for the rest of my life. But, I was

hardly able to walk, each day was filled with pain, so I gave in.

Today, MTX allows me to do most anything I want. I rarely have pain

and no swelling. I know there are lots of possible side effects and

possible concerns about long term use, but I figured I had to take

those chances because my life was only barely worth living with all

the pain I had. There are some non-drug ways of attempting to deal

with PA. I've read here of lo carb diets, avoiding nightshades

(tomatoes & such) as well as nutritional supplements like Vitamin C.

I assume that these alternatives will work well for some people and

not at all for others, but that is also the case with many of the

drugs like MTX, Enbrel, Humira.

I wish you well. I know this disease is tough to answer to.

But, you have to do what feels right for you. I hope you find

something that helps.

Stay Well,

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:14:02 -0000, david <david@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Pete,

> This IS the place for you to be in most ways.

> Although many folks here are treating their PA with a variety of

> drugs (I'm one using MTX), you will find support, suggestions and at

> least folks that will listen. I too hated the thought (still do) of

> taking drugs, sometimes lots, for the rest of my life. But, I was

> hardly able to walk, each day was filled with pain, so I gave in.

> Today, MTX allows me to do most anything I want. I rarely have pain

> and no swelling. I know there are lots of possible side effects and

> possible concerns about long term use, but I figured I had to take

> those chances because my life was only barely worth living with all

> the pain I had. There are some non-drug ways of attempting to deal

> with PA. I've read here of lo carb diets, avoiding nightshades

> (tomatoes & such) as well as nutritional supplements like Vitamin C.

> I assume that these alternatives will work well for some people and

> not at all for others, but that is also the case with many of the

> drugs like MTX, Enbrel, Humira.

>

> I wish you well. I know this disease is tough to answer to.

> But, you have to do what feels right for you. I hope you find

> something that helps.

>

> Stay Well,

>

Thanks ,

There is a bit of swelling and of course the pain. I think I would

rather deal with all the side effects then to deal with the drug

issues. I would love to find some no-drug things to do, that might

help....like the ones you stated.

I am certainly reading and listening though. Thanks to all that have

communicated with me regarding this.

I probably should find a Dr to check in with, seeing it has been so long.

--

Pete

http://milneweb.com

http://nomorevirus.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

Welcome to the group. I'm a bit late with it but, anyway........

I guess all you can do is weigh up all info you can get on this disease, see

what the different avenues and scenarios are and make what you feel is the

best decision for you. I hope whatever you decide to do works for you.

Good luck,

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded to

any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I grew

up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I have

to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness. I

started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided

to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with

accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals

that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body

this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with

all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If

you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with

someone that is not on all the medications.

Kristi

Pete <pmilne@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I just signed up for this thing today. Not too sure its the place for

me though.

I was diagnosed with PS when I was 15, I am now 43. Elbows, ankle,

neck, wrists and knees are affected...this week. Terrible time

getting up out of a chair and starting to walk. Absolutely no

strength in my wrists or elbows. I cant squat for the pain, let alone

stand up from a squat. I get a good nights sleep about 3 nights a

week.

I thought this might be a good place for info. Reading the bunch of

emails I have received so far has got me terribly nervous. I am

amazed so far at the amout of drugs people use. Albeit, I have a high

pain tolerance buy my oh my! When first diagnosed, I was prescribed

Sulfasalazine. When I was asked to come in every so often to check my

liver, because of the damage this drug does, I immediately quit. I do

take 2 Ibuprofen before bedtime, if I havent slept well for the past

nights.

I am VERY active, I work on a ranch and deal with everything

thinkable, aside from heavy lifting over 80# or so.

Please dont take this post wrong, I am not writing this to scold

anyone, nor give the impression that I am handling this better than

anyone. I would love to do away with all this pain, but not by

harming other facets of my body. I am not a drug taker, nor would I

want to be. There has got to be another route. As you can tell, I

have been dealing with this for quite sometime. Some (most) mornings,

I dont even want to get out of bed....but I do. This cant stop normal

daily life, no matter how much pain or lack of mobility is involved.

You ought to see me after about 7 hrs being horseback. *;o)

Is there anyone here that isnt bound by drugs? Is there anyone that

has a physical job and is dealing with this?

Pete

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:59:38 -0800 (PST), Kristi

<kpookie76@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Pete,

>

> I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded

to any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I

grew up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I

have to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness.

I started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided

to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with

accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals

that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body

this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with

all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If

you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with

someone that is not on all the medications.

> Kristi

Hey Kristi,

No meds here but for a couple ibuprofen now and again. I havent tried

any alternatives either. This past few weeks have been extremely

physical for me, that time of the year ya know. The pain level is

prety intense but so long as I am going, I am fine. When I stop, I

setup and fall apart. Same routine everyday but you know what.....God

is good! I can accept this for what it is. I refuse to let it bother

me or stop me. As you read, I also refuse the drugs.

I had half a thought to find a Rhuemy to go and get a checkup. The

criteria I have for picking one is this: I want to speak with the Dr

before I visit and see what his knowledge is and/or game plan. So,

you guessed it, I havent gone yet because I cant get a Dr to talk to

me. Seems some Drs priorities must be a little different than I think

a Drs should be. I would be curious to see how the past 15 or so

years since my last visit, have treated me.

--

Pete

http://milneweb.com

http://nomorevirus.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reponse...it would be interesting to see what the Dr. says after

15 years..You are so correct to say God is good!!!! That is something I need to

remember on my real bad days!!!! Thanks again!

Pete <pmilne@...> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:59:38 -0800 (PST), Kristi

<kpookie76@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi Pete,

>

> I am new at this site also..actually this is the first time I have responded

to any emails.. I am 28 years old and was first diagnosed about 4 years ago..I

grew up on a farm and have always lived a very active life, now it seems like I

have to decide if the activity is worth the next few days with extra soreness.

I started taking MTX injections and continued for the first 3 years, and decided

to stop because I was having terrible side effects. I am treating my PA with

accupunture right now and trying to change my diet to decrease the chemicals

that I put in my body. I have no idea if I am risking the future of my body

this way, but I am not convinced that the Dr's know what their doing to us with

all the stuff they prescribe. Have you tried any alternative treatments?? If

you have I would love some advice..It would be great to be in contact with

someone that is not on all the medications.

> Kristi

Hey Kristi,

No meds here but for a couple ibuprofen now and again. I havent tried

any alternatives either. This past few weeks have been extremely

physical for me, that time of the year ya know. The pain level is

prety intense but so long as I am going, I am fine. When I stop, I

setup and fall apart. Same routine everyday but you know what.....God

is good! I can accept this for what it is. I refuse to let it bother

me or stop me. As you read, I also refuse the drugs.

I had half a thought to find a Rhuemy to go and get a checkup. The

criteria I have for picking one is this: I want to speak with the Dr

before I visit and see what his knowledge is and/or game plan. So,

you guessed it, I havent gone yet because I cant get a Dr to talk to

me. Seems some Drs priorities must be a little different than I think

a Drs should be. I would be curious to see how the past 15 or so

years since my last visit, have treated me.

--

Pete

http://milneweb.com

http://nomorevirus.com

Please visit our Psoriatic Arthritis Group's informational web page at:

http://www.wpunj.edu/pa/ -- created and edited by list member

aka(raharris@...).

Also,in August 2001,list member Jack aka Cornishpro@... began to

conduct extensive research which he publishes as the " Psoriatic Arthritis

Research Newsletter " , monthly in our email and digest format. Many thanks to

Jack. Back issues of the newsletter are stored on our PA webpage as well as the

archives of the list.

Don't forget that the list archives comprise a tremendous amount of information

(Over three years of messages and answers).Feel free to browse them at your

convenience.

LET'S HEAR FROM SOME OF YOU LURKERS out there! If you have a comment or

question, chances are there is a person who has been around a while who can help

you out with AT LEAST an educated guess for an answer! If not,we can steer you

in the right direction with a good website to go to,

Blessings and Peace,

Atwood-Stack, Founder

Alan , Web & List Editor

Jack , Newsletter Editor

Pat Bias, List Editor

Ron Dotson, List Editor

Orin, List Editor

Kathy F., List Editor

and any others who help in any way (thank you!)

[Guest guest]

> I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had

> expected or hoped for.

>

What changes had you hoped for that have not come to pass?

> I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes

> that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice

> woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on

> this topic.

>

> What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s.

> Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of

> Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range.

>

As you know by now, some men's skin is not permeable enough to make

transdermal preparations practical. Since Androgel is boosting your

levels effectively, that doesn't seem to be a dispositive factor for

you. Injections and AG each have their strengths & weaknesses. I

made a choice based upon personal preference. What would you hope to

achieve by changing to injections?

Welcome,

Brad

[Guest guest]

Hey - welcome to the group.

One of the first things I learned from this group is - its not about the number

but how you feel. We are all so different and respond differently that you just

have to experiment and find what works best for you. If for example you want to

" beef up " more, then 500-600 on T will not do the trick. If you only want to

feel well and respond sexually, then the number is very individualized. Gels

will give you a more consistent dose but other options may be required to get

higher. I'm sure smearing on 3 packets of androgel a day is challenging. I tried

the gel but didn't absorb well so currently do shots.

Arkansas

taliesin1958 <john530@...> wrote:

Hello all,

I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted

since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly

supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in

similar circumstances.

To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My

physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect

that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual

characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill...

I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss,

but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few

years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that

my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the

risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming

increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test

trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins

University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level

was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that

the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been

on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years.

I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had

expected or hoped for.

I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes

that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice

woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on

this topic.

What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s.

Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of

Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range.

Best,

[Guest guest]

Hello and welcome aboard!

Lets start with the Androgel issue. You say you are spreading on two

and a half packets a day, that is the equivilent of 12.5mg applied to

your skin, the issue is whether all of the 12.5mg of T is getting

into your body. Injections will definately get in all into your

body, keep that in mind when you weigh injections vs skin spreadons.

You T level of the Androgel is now within range, but how are you

doing? Are you any hairier, is your lidibo better/higher, how do you

feel otherwise as in general strength, energy level? Do you have

health insurance to pay for the Androgel and you pay only a copay?

Androgel is by far the most expensive form of TRT as it comes from a

big drug company that has to build in advertising and a lot of

profit. Consider that only 1% of what you spread on is actually

Testosterone, a lot of slathering and drying and wasted time to get

only 1% out of it. Good compounding pharmacies make up a jar of a

gel that is 10% testosterone, and you only need a little over a

quarter teaspoon to spread on each day to get the same amount of T,

and a jar costs about $75 for a couple months worth, compare that to

how much Androgel costs, wow! Injections are by far the cheapest and

often the most effective way to get T into you.

I have been self injecting depotestosterone for over 34 years with no

ill effects, no bone density loss, no prostate problems. If you can

take a shot at answering some of my above questions, maybe we can

help you out with some more information.

best

norton

[Guest guest]

Hello... and welcome aboard.

Assuming those are Total T levels that you have produced there, what

" normal range " of values does your regular lab use?

Also would be helpful to know what your Free T levels are (and your

lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol) levels (and - yep -

your lab's normal ranges).

Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T levels for

purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T.... but it ends up

being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to know " how much is

your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures seems to dominate.

Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the figures that you are

showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 - 1000) should be

sufficient for TRT purposes in general.

However....

You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes symptoms just like

low T).

You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still higher dosing to

feel the " expected " results (you never specified, but are you

experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it simply that this

hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you imagined?). But

dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams per day level...

thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see more below)?

As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be improperly worded. AG

appears to have been giving transdermal gels a black-eye in that they

don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the skin barrier and

into the dermal layers and then leached into the blood as they claim

(e-mail me if you want a more detailed explanantion)... AND they (AG)

have had some quality control issues with many users - including yours

truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2 full, only 1/3

full... or even empty.

Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks from users of the

Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one study that confirms

the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to AG....

See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

QUOTE:

Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single dose (50 mg

testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart. C(max) estimates

for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free testosterone were

greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the application of

Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24) estimates for total

testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free testosterone were greater

(30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the application of Testim

compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for C(max) and AUC(0-24)

were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence limits for

testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and AndroGel are not

bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum levels and greater

bioavailability than AndroGel.

END QUOTE

So you might want to give Testim a try (not only more effective for

same dosings - in fact you might want to start out with 10 grams and

see where you're at with that if you try Testim).

That said, you'll find a number of individuals who use IM shots and

are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either or type of approach.

With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat, thick skin, etc.)

transdermal gels just might not work for you. Personally I am not a

fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in the IM shots isn't

quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to the degree as

found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in other words, the T is

not in an synthetic salted ester form such as propionate, enanthate or

undecanoate)... but then that's my personal opinion. I am in a

situation where I have a number of other precription medications that

I have to take for other related conditions and if I can reduce a

pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well, I'll take it!

Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better ideas if we have

those other levels made available.

And if you have not obtained tests of those levels (quite a good

chance with who you have had to deal with so far), then you have a

good idea of some additional tests that you need to ask for.... but

if that's the case, then there's probably several more tests that it

would be a good idea to ask for.....

Larry

> Hello all,

>

> I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted

> since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly

> supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in

> similar circumstances.

>

> To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My

> physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect

> that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual

> characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill...

>

> I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss,

> but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few

> years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that

> my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the

> risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming

> increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test

> trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins

> University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level

> was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that

> the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been

> on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years.

>

> I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had

> expected or hoped for.

>

> I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes

> that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice

> woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on

> this topic.

>

> What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s.

> Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of

> Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range.

>

> Best,

>

[Guest guest]

Some VG points made here!

And also one area that I have been meaning to address for a while.

I often see where compounded T cream (and also IM shots often) are

offerred as a " cost effective option' " . While that is clearly true in

those cases where one does not have insurance (or has very bad

insurance?), cost factors do not have as much - if any - impact on

those with good insurance.

In fact, in my case, compounded T cream will cost me considerably more

than one of the commercial transdermal gels. With my co-pay, a year's

supply of AG(no matter what the daily dosage) will cost me $120.00. A

year's supply of Testim (which has a lower co-pay due to lower overall

cost!) will cost me $80.00... And against that is the compounded T

cream that's going to cost me $450 (at Norton's listed rate).

Now I have to admit that IM shots are even lower than that, with

annual cost (co-pay) totalling only $60 a year... plus cost of

syringes which I have no idea about, so that might bring it up to

same-same cost as with Testim???

So I wonder if a lot of members are also in that same situation where

their insurance is simply " so good " (choke, choke, choke... since

you're paying for it up front anyway) that using a commercial brand

gel is simply more cost effective than using a compounded cream T

(which could be solved if most insurance companies would pay for

compound T cream products, but that's not very likely)....

Also, I had an actual opportunity last week to speak with a rep from

AG and laid out a lot of " consumer complaints " that exist with their

product. Aside from their own quality control problems and that they

apparently are not deliverying as much T across skin barrier and into

bloodstream as they claim, I also spoke at length about the general

problems with the " slathering " gobs of gel, drying times, slowness of

completely crossing skin barrier (so having problems with the compound

rubbing off on clothes, transference concerns, etc), etc.

I pointed out that one of the problems simply exists with the

" weakness " of the product. Only 1% strength. He felt that they were

limited to that by law - until I pointed out that compounded T creams

are made up in all kinds of strength levels, 2%, 5%, 10%, etc. and

(you could tell) it hit him like a bomb going off. He thought for a

moment and said " You're right. So why do we make such a weak product? "

I pointed out that if they simpy made it in a 2% strength solution -

and did nothing else - that they would cut in half how much gel one

has to slather over their body (which would also reduce area covered

and reduce drying times). A 50 mg dose of T would now be contained in

a 2.5 gram packet , etc.

Larry

> Hello and welcome aboard!

> Lets start with the Androgel issue. You say you are spreading on two

> and a half packets a day, that is the equivilent of 12.5mg applied to

> your skin, the issue is whether all of the 12.5mg of T is getting

> into your body. Injections will definately get in all into your

> body, keep that in mind when you weigh injections vs skin spreadons.

> You T level of the Androgel is now within range, but how are you

> doing? Are you any hairier, is your lidibo better/higher, how do you

> feel otherwise as in general strength, energy level? Do you have

> health insurance to pay for the Androgel and you pay only a copay?

> Androgel is by far the most expensive form of TRT as it comes from a

> big drug company that has to build in advertising and a lot of

> profit. Consider that only 1% of what you spread on is actually

> Testosterone, a lot of slathering and drying and wasted time to get

> only 1% out of it. Good compounding pharmacies make up a jar of a

> gel that is 10% testosterone, and you only need a little over a

> quarter teaspoon to spread on each day to get the same amount of T,

> and a jar costs about $75 for a couple months worth, compare that to

> how much Androgel costs, wow! Injections are by far the cheapest and

> often the most effective way to get T into you.

> I have been self injecting depotestosterone for over 34 years with no

> ill effects, no bone density loss, no prostate problems. If you can

> take a shot at answering some of my above questions, maybe we can

> help you out with some more information.

> best

> norton

[Guest guest]

I'll answer Dan, Norton, Larry and Brad at once, so as to save space,

and reduce duplication.

First, thanks for the insight and quick responses.

My recent bone density scan came up fine, libido is good, but then,it

was not really bad before, just heightened now.

My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of

secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come

from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several

generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body

hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest.

Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns

and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound.

The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist

wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than

willing.

I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me

a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or

fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to

probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another

patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors.

I gather from each of your responses that you're telling me not to

expect too much in the way of physical change, even if the method I

eventually settle on is the optimum one for my metabolism, skin, and

the rest.

I recognize that it sounds insignificant, and I'm not expressing

myself well, but I'd love to look something like the man that I feel

like.

Best,

[Guest guest]

>

> My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of

> secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come

> from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several

> generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body

> hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest.

> Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns

> and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound.

>

> The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist

> wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than

> willing.

>

Given your objectives, I'd stick with one of the transdermal

preparations. They give a good boost to DHT levels which may help

with the body hair issue. You can consider changing the dose or the

formulation of course. Over several years, my body hair has increased

slowly but steadily.

> I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me

> a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or

> fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to

> probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another

> patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors.

Just request a copy of your medical records and read the answer for

yourself. They can't withhold the records from you although they may

charge a fee for the copying.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Hey IRS,

Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have been

on it for over 18 months and still have an T level of

just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having orgasm

and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been

reading here it could be the absorption factor doesn't

seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a

higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing

my doctor next month and want to either try Testim or

goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this?

Guiman

--- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

> Hello... and welcome aboard.

>

> Assuming those are Total T levels that you have

> produced there, what

> " normal range " of values does your regular lab use?

>

> Also would be helpful to know what your Free T

> levels are (and your

> lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol)

> levels (and - yep -

> your lab's normal ranges).

>

> Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T

> levels for

> purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T....

> but it ends up

> being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to

> know " how much is

> your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures

> seems to dominate.

>

> Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the

> figures that you are

> showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 -

> 1000) should be

> sufficient for TRT purposes in general.

>

> However....

>

> You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes

> symptoms just like

> low T).

>

> You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still

> higher dosing to

> feel the " expected " results (you never specified,

> but are you

> experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it

> simply that this

> hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you

> imagined?). But

> dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams

> per day level...

> thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see

> more below)?

>

> As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be

> improperly worded. AG

> appears to have been giving transdermal gels a

> black-eye in that they

> don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the

> skin barrier and

> into the dermal layers and then leached into the

> blood as they claim

> (e-mail me if you want a more detailed

> explanantion)... AND they (AG)

> have had some quality control issues with many users

> - including yours

> truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2

> full, only 1/3

> full... or even empty.

>

> Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks

> from users of the

> Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one

> study that confirms

> the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to

> AG....

>

> See:

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> QUOTE:

> Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single

> dose (50 mg

> testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart.

> C(max) estimates

> for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free

> testosterone were

> greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the

> application of

> Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24)

> estimates for total

> testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free

> testosterone were greater

> (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the

> application of Testim

> compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for

> C(max) and AUC(0-24)

> were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence

> limits for

> testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and

> AndroGel are not

> bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum

> levels and greater

> bioavailability than AndroGel.

> END QUOTE

>

> So you might want to give Testim a try (not only

> more effective for

> same dosings - in fact you might want to start out

> with 10 grams and

> see where you're at with that if you try Testim).

>

> That said, you'll find a number of individuals who

> use IM shots and

> are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either

> or type of approach.

> With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat,

> thick skin, etc.)

> transdermal gels just might not work for you.

> Personally I am not a

> fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in

> the IM shots isn't

> quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to

> the degree as

> found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in

> other words, the T is

> not in an synthetic salted ester form such as

> propionate, enanthate or

> undecanoate)... but then that's my personal

> opinion. I am in a

> situation where I have a number of other precription

> medications that

> I have to take for other related conditions and if I

> can reduce a

> pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well,

> I'll take it!

>

> Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better

> ideas if we have

> those other levels made available.

>

> And if you have not obtained tests of those levels

> (quite a good

> chance with who you have had to deal with so far),

> then you have a

> good idea of some additional tests that you need to

> ask for.... but

> if that's the case, then there's probably several

> more tests that it

> would be a good idea to ask for.....

>

> Larry

>

>

>

>

>

> > Hello all,

> >

> > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the

> messages posted

> > since the beginning of this Group. Quite

> interesting and also oddly

> > supporting; knowing that there are so many other

> men out there in

> > similar circumstances.

> >

> > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic

> male. My

> > physician has, so far, been unable to determine

> the cause. I suspect

> > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary

> sexual

> > characteristics, slight body development, you all

> know the drill...

> >

> > I had suspected as far back as high school that

> something was amiss,

> > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll

> kick in in a few

> > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an

> endocrinologist who said that

> > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed

> HRT because of the

> > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was

> becoming

> > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I

> heard about a test

> > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted

> at s Hopkins

> > University, went in for a check up, and discovered

> that my T level

> > was " 124 " . The people running the study were

> frankly shocked that

> > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on

> HRT, and I've been

> > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2

> years.

> >

> > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as

> pronounced as I had

> > expected or hoped for.

> >

> > I've made an appointment with an excellent

> endocrinologist, in hopes

> > that he might have more informed answers; frankly,

> my GP is a nice

> > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out

> of her depth on

>

=== message truncated ===

test'; " >

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

your numbers are to low for that much Androgel. You said you are doing

a total of 12.5 grams of Androgel. Your over the Max dose and I have to say

that when I tried that my E2 Estradiol when nuts. Have you had this tested.

If your Estradiol is high it takes up the space in you cells and the

Testosterone has not where to go.

I tried the gels both Andorgel and Testim and my levels were not high enough

plus the gels did nothing for my joints and muscles I started getting a lot of

pain using them. I posted this and norton got back to me telling me he had the

same problems and sent back on shots and his pain stopped. So I did the same.

You need your levels up in the upper 1/3 of the labs range for both Total and

Free T. for a young man.

When I started back on shots I did 100 mgs. every week my levels came back at

650 still to low so my Dr. upped the shots to 150 mgs. and in 4 weeks my levels

were still to low. So I talked my Dr. into adding Hcg. like Dr. does. I

started on 500 IU's 3 times a week MWF and after my 15th. shot my blood test

came back up good 1135 total T. So now after 21 yrs. of being on TRT and I am

primary my Testis are making T from the Hcg. I am feeling the best I have every

felt in 21 yrs.

Get a copy of your blood test and post them with the range. If you have not had

your E2 tested get it done you just may get your levels up 200 to 300 more

points doing this. I use Indolplex/DIM to keep my E2 down.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

Also read message # 14939 It is what Dr. does for his men. It is called

" My Dr.'s Current Best Thoughts On TRT "

This I feel is why I am doing go good.

Phil

taliesin1958 <john530@...> wrote:Hello all,

I've spent the last day catching up on most of the messages posted

since the beginning of this Group. Quite interesting and also oddly

supporting; knowing that there are so many other men out there in

similar circumstances.

To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic male. My

physician has, so far, been unable to determine the cause. I suspect

that it developed as a child--negligible secondary sexual

characteristics, slight body development, you all know the drill...

I had suspected as far back as high school that something was amiss,

but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll kick in in a few

years... " When I hit 34 I went to an endocrinologist who said that

my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed HRT because of the

risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was becoming

increasingly more depressed over the situation. I heard about a test

trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted at s Hopkins

University, went in for a check up, and discovered that my T level

was " 124 " . The people running the study were frankly shocked that

the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on HRT, and I've been

on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2 years.

I have noticed improvement, but nothing as pronounced as I had

expected or hoped for.

I've made an appointment with an excellent endocrinologist, in hopes

that he might have more informed answers; frankly, my GP is a nice

woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out of her depth on

this topic.

What does anyone think of the relative merits of injections v.s.

Androgel. I'm currently using two 5 gram and one 2.5 gram packets of

Androgel per day. My numbers hover in the 570-600 range.

Best,

[Guest guest]

Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this can cause your levels to not

go up and give you orgasm problems.

Phil

Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote:

Hey IRS,

Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have been

on it for over 18 months and still have an T level of

just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having orgasm

and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been

reading here it could be the absorption factor doesn't

seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a

higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing

my doctor next month and want to either try Testim or

goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this?

Guiman

--- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

> Hello... and welcome aboard.

>

> Assuming those are Total T levels that you have

> produced there, what

> " normal range " of values does your regular lab use?

>

> Also would be helpful to know what your Free T

> levels are (and your

> lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol)

> levels (and - yep -

> your lab's normal ranges).

>

> Free T is generally a better indicator of positive T

> levels for

> purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total T....

> but it ends up

> being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to

> know " how much is

> your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures

> seems to dominate.

>

> Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the

> figures that you are

> showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 -

> 1000) should be

> sufficient for TRT purposes in general.

>

> However....

>

> You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes

> symptoms just like

> low T).

>

> You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a still

> higher dosing to

> feel the " expected " results (you never specified,

> but are you

> experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it

> simply that this

> hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you

> imagined?). But

> dosings being applied are already at the 12.5 grams

> per day level...

> thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product (see

> more below)?

>

> As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be

> improperly worded. AG

> appears to have been giving transdermal gels a

> black-eye in that they

> don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the

> skin barrier and

> into the dermal layers and then leached into the

> blood as they claim

> (e-mail me if you want a more detailed

> explanantion)... AND they (AG)

> have had some quality control issues with many users

> - including yours

> truly - reporting that opened packets were only 1/2

> full, only 1/3

> full... or even empty.

>

> Conversely Testim has not only received higher marks

> from users of the

> Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one

> study that confirms

> the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to

> AG....

>

> See:

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> QUOTE:

> Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single

> dose (50 mg

> testosterone) of each formulation seven days apart.

> C(max) estimates

> for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and free

> testosterone were

> greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following the

> application of

> Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24)

> estimates for total

> testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free

> testosterone were greater

> (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the

> application of Testim

> compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for

> C(max) and AUC(0-24)

> were not wholly contained within the bioequivalence

> limits for

> testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and

> AndroGel are not

> bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum

> levels and greater

> bioavailability than AndroGel.

> END QUOTE

>

> So you might want to give Testim a try (not only

> more effective for

> same dosings - in fact you might want to start out

> with 10 grams and

> see where you're at with that if you try Testim).

>

> That said, you'll find a number of individuals who

> use IM shots and

> are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an either

> or type of approach.

> With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat,

> thick skin, etc.)

> transdermal gels just might not work for you.

> Personally I am not a

> fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone in

> the IM shots isn't

> quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone to

> the degree as

> found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in

> other words, the T is

> not in an synthetic salted ester form such as

> propionate, enanthate or

> undecanoate)... but then that's my personal

> opinion. I am in a

> situation where I have a number of other precription

> medications that

> I have to take for other related conditions and if I

> can reduce a

> pharmaceutical version by just even one item, well,

> I'll take it!

>

> Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better

> ideas if we have

> those other levels made available.

>

> And if you have not obtained tests of those levels

> (quite a good

> chance with who you have had to deal with so far),

> then you have a

> good idea of some additional tests that you need to

> ask for.... but

> if that's the case, then there's probably several

> more tests that it

> would be a good idea to ask for.....

>

> Larry

>

>

>

>

>

> > Hello all,

> >

> > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the

> messages posted

> > since the beginning of this Group. Quite

> interesting and also oddly

> > supporting; knowing that there are so many other

> men out there in

> > similar circumstances.

> >

> > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic

> male. My

> > physician has, so far, been unable to determine

> the cause. I suspect

> > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary

> sexual

> > characteristics, slight body development, you all

> know the drill...

> >

> > I had suspected as far back as high school that

> something was amiss,

> > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll

> kick in in a few

> > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an

> endocrinologist who said that

> > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed

> HRT because of the

> > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was

> becoming

> > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I

> heard about a test

> > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted

> at s Hopkins

> > University, went in for a check up, and discovered

> that my T level

> > was " 124 " . The people running the study were

> frankly shocked that

> > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on

> HRT, and I've been

> > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2

> years.

> >

> > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as

> pronounced as I had

> > expected or hoped for.

> >

> > I've made an appointment with an excellent

> endocrinologist, in hopes

> > that he might have more informed answers; frankly,

> my GP is a nice

> > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out

> of her depth on

>

=== message truncated ===

test'; " >

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hey Phil,

I did have my E2 tested and Prolactin levels and they

camE back with 26(e2) and 36(Prolactin). My doctor

said both levels are within normal ranges for Quest

labs. I will be getting another blood test for my

next visit, besides retesting E2, anything else I

should be asking ?

Thanks, guy

--- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

> Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this

> can cause your levels to not go up and give you

> orgasm problems.

> Phil

>

> Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote:

> Hey IRS,

>

> Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have

> been

> on it for over 18 months and still have an T level

> of

> just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having

> orgasm

> and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been

> reading here it could be the absorption factor

> doesn't

> seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a

> higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing

> my doctor next month and want to either try Testim

> or

> goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this?

>

> Guiman

>

> --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

>

> > Hello... and welcome aboard.

> >

> > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have

> > produced there, what

> > " normal range " of values does your regular lab

> use?

> >

> > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T

> > levels are (and your

> > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol)

> > levels (and - yep -

> > your lab's normal ranges).

> >

> > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive

> T

> > levels for

> > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total

> T....

> > but it ends up

> > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to

> > know " how much is

> > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures

> > seems to dominate.

> >

> > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the

> > figures that you are

> > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 -

> > 1000) should be

> > sufficient for TRT purposes in general.

> >

> > However....

> >

> > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes

> > symptoms just like

> > low T).

> >

> > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a

> still

> > higher dosing to

> > feel the " expected " results (you never specified,

> > but are you

> > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it

> > simply that this

> > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you

> > imagined?). But

> > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5

> grams

> > per day level...

> > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product

> (see

> > more below)?

> >

> > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be

> > improperly worded. AG

> > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a

> > black-eye in that they

> > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the

> > skin barrier and

> > into the dermal layers and then leached into the

> > blood as they claim

> > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed

> > explanantion)... AND they (AG)

> > have had some quality control issues with many

> users

> > - including yours

> > truly - reporting that opened packets were only

> 1/2

> > full, only 1/3

> > full... or even empty.

> >

> > Conversely Testim has not only received higher

> marks

> > from users of the

> > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one

> > study that confirms

> > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to

> > AG....

> >

> > See:

> >

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> > QUOTE:

> > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single

> > dose (50 mg

> > testosterone) of each formulation seven days

> apart.

> > C(max) estimates

> > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and

> free

> > testosterone were

> > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following

> the

> > application of

> > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24)

> > estimates for total

> > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free

> > testosterone were greater

> > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the

> > application of Testim

> > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for

> > C(max) and AUC(0-24)

> > were not wholly contained within the

> bioequivalence

> > limits for

> > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and

> > AndroGel are not

> > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum

> > levels and greater

> > bioavailability than AndroGel.

> > END QUOTE

> >

> > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only

> > more effective for

> > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out

> > with 10 grams and

> > see where you're at with that if you try Testim).

> >

> > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who

> > use IM shots and

> > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an

> either

> > or type of approach.

> > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat,

> > thick skin, etc.)

> > transdermal gels just might not work for you.

> > Personally I am not a

> > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone

> in

> > the IM shots isn't

> > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone

> to

> > the degree as

> > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in

> > other words, the T is

> > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as

> > propionate, enanthate or

> > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal

> > opinion. I am in a

> > situation where I have a number of other

> precription

> > medications that

> > I have to take for other related conditions and if

> I

> > can reduce a

> > pharmaceutical version by just even one item,

> well,

> > I'll take it!

> >

> > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better

> > ideas if we have

> > those other levels made available.

> >

> > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels

> > (quite a good

> > chance with who you have had to deal with so far),

> > then you have a

> > good idea of some additional tests that you need

> to

> > ask for.... but

> > if that's the case, then there's probably several

> > more tests that it

> > would be a good idea to ask for.....

> >

> > Larry

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Hello all,

> > >

> > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of

> the

>

=== message truncated ===

test'; " >

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Yes as a test ask her to give you a shot of Depo testosterone say 100 mgs and

then do the test in 7 days to see if you levels go up. You may need to switch

to shots the gels don't seam to be working for you. If you can get your levels

up on the upper 1/3 of the range for a young man you will see a big difference

in how you feel and look in time. If the shot makes you feel dam good this is a

sine you need to switch.

Phil

Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote:

Hey Phil,

I did have my E2 tested and Prolactin levels and they

camE back with 26(e2) and 36(Prolactin). My doctor

said both levels are within normal ranges for Quest

labs. I will be getting another blood test for my

next visit, besides retesting E2, anything else I

should be asking ?

Thanks, guy

--- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

> Get your E2 Estradiol tested if your to high this

> can cause your levels to not go up and give you

> orgasm problems.

> Phil

>

> Guy DelRegno <gdelregno@...> wrote:

> Hey IRS,

>

> Can you tell me how long you were on AG ? I have

> been

> on it for over 18 months and still have an T level

> of

> just over 500 on 2-5gram packets. Still having

> orgasm

> and ejaculation problems. So, what I have been

> reading here it could be the absorption factor

> doesn't

> seem to be happening with AG and/or I may need a

> higher level of T to resolve my issues. I am seeing

> my doctor next month and want to either try Testim

> or

> goto weekly shots. Any thoughts on this?

>

> Guiman

>

> --- lrs1951 <stat1951@...> wrote:

>

> > Hello... and welcome aboard.

> >

> > Assuming those are Total T levels that you have

> > produced there, what

> > " normal range " of values does your regular lab

> use?

> >

> > Also would be helpful to know what your Free T

> > levels are (and your

> > lab's normal ranges) and also your E2 (Estradiol)

> > levels (and - yep -

> > your lab's normal ranges).

> >

> > Free T is generally a better indicator of positive

> T

> > levels for

> > purposes of divining TRT than is that of Total

> T....

> > but it ends up

> > being like kids in a gym where everyone wants to

> > know " how much is

> > your bench " , so throwing around Total T figures

> > seems to dominate.

> >

> > Anyway, based on just " general averages " , the

> > figures that you are

> > showing (570 - 600 with a range of let's say 220 -

> > 1000) should be

> > sufficient for TRT purposes in general.

> >

> > However....

> >

> > You may have highly elevated E2 levels (E2 causes

> > symptoms just like

> > low T).

> >

> > You may simply have a T sensitivity and need a

> still

> > higher dosing to

> > feel the " expected " results (you never specified,

> > but are you

> > experiencing any particular symptoms... or was it

> > simply that this

> > hasn't been the explosion of fireworks that you

> > imagined?). But

> > dosings being applied are already at the 12.5

> grams

> > per day level...

> > thick skin levels? Poor absorption? Bad product

> (see

> > more below)?

> >

> > As to AG versus IM shots, well, that might be

> > improperly worded. AG

> > appears to have been giving transdermal gels a

> > black-eye in that they

> > don't seem to be deliverying as much T across the

> > skin barrier and

> > into the dermal layers and then leached into the

> > blood as they claim

> > (e-mail me if you want a more detailed

> > explanantion)... AND they (AG)

> > have had some quality control issues with many

> users

> > - including yours

> > truly - reporting that opened packets were only

> 1/2

> > full, only 1/3

> > full... or even empty.

> >

> > Conversely Testim has not only received higher

> marks

> > from users of the

> > Board (and other Boards), but there's at least one

> > study that confirms

> > the higher effectiveness of Testim as compared to

> > AG....

> >

> > See:

> >

>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstra\

ct & list_uids=12673669 & query_hl=5

> > QUOTE:

> > Twenty-nine hypogonadal subjects received a single

> > dose (50 mg

> > testosterone) of each formulation seven days

> apart.

> > C(max) estimates

> > for total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and

> free

> > testosterone were

> > greater (30, 19 and 38%, respectively) following

> the

> > application of

> > Testim compared to AndroGel. Similarly, AUC(0-24)

> > estimates for total

> > testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free

> > testosterone were greater

> > (30, 11 and 47%, respectively) following the

> > application of Testim

> > compared to AndroGel. Confidence intervals for

> > C(max) and AUC(0-24)

> > were not wholly contained within the

> bioequivalence

> > limits for

> > testosterone, therefore Testim trade mark and

> > AndroGel are not

> > bioequivalent with Testim providing higher serum

> > levels and greater

> > bioavailability than AndroGel.

> > END QUOTE

> >

> > So you might want to give Testim a try (not only

> > more effective for

> > same dosings - in fact you might want to start out

> > with 10 grams and

> > see where you're at with that if you try Testim).

> >

> > That said, you'll find a number of individuals who

> > use IM shots and

> > are quite satisfied with them, so it's not an

> either

> > or type of approach.

> > With certain physical problems (excess bodyfat,

> > thick skin, etc.)

> > transdermal gels just might not work for you.

> > Personally I am not a

> > fan of the IM shots as the supplied testosterone

> in

> > the IM shots isn't

> > quite the " natural " , " bioidentical " testosterone

> to

> > the degree as

> > found in the gels (or in compounded creams - in

> > other words, the T is

> > not in an synthetic salted ester form such as

> > propionate, enanthate or

> > undecanoate)... but then that's my personal

> > opinion. I am in a

> > situation where I have a number of other

> precription

> > medications that

> > I have to take for other related conditions and if

> I

> > can reduce a

> > pharmaceutical version by just even one item,

> well,

> > I'll take it!

> >

> > Anyway, we can probably come up woith some better

> > ideas if we have

> > those other levels made available.

> >

> > And if you have not obtained tests of those levels

> > (quite a good

> > chance with who you have had to deal with so far),

> > then you have a

> > good idea of some additional tests that you need

> to

> > ask for.... but

> > if that's the case, then there's probably several

> > more tests that it

> > would be a good idea to ask for.....

> >

> > Larry

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Hello all,

> > >

> > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of

> the

>

=== message truncated ===

test'; " >

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ditto to what Brad just said. And specifically with staying with the

transdermals. (note that in the test info that I provided Testim also

modestly increased DHT levels compared to AG)

And ask for specific tests (I believe you mentioned something about

seeing a new doc for TRT, possibly an Endo?). At a minimum (seeing as

how your health is apparently sound otherwise), ask for Total T

(testosterone), Free T, Total E (estrogens) and E2 (estradiol)... and

in your case since you're looking at DHT levels also, I'd throw in DHT

levels.

And then specifically request a copy of the test results (which should

show not only the value (i.e. 570), but also the value's normal range

(i.e., 220 - 1000). It helps if you mention to the doctor that you

maintain copies of all your medical records (or are starting to) in

case you have to see another doctor or have some kind of an emergency

that you have records immediately available.

Larry

>

> >

> > My initial reasons for seeking answers as a teen were lack of

> > secondary sexual characteristics, (beard, chest hair, etc..) I come

> > from a profoundly hirsute family, both sides, foor several

> > generations back. Both of my brothers have full facial, chest, body

> > hair coverage, my younger brother sprouts a virtual facial forest.

> > Conceded and stipulated, that these are primarily aesthetic concerns

> > and if must be accepted if my underlying physical health is sound.

> >

> > The bother of the gels is a minor issue. If my new endocrinologist

> > wants to try injections--or some other cream version--I'm more than

> > willing.

> >

>

> Given your objectives, I'd stick with one of the transdermal

> preparations. They give a good boost to DHT levels which may help

> with the body hair issue. You can consider changing the dose or the

> formulation of course. Over several years, my body hair has increased

> slowly but steadily.

>

>

> > I don't have my Free-T numbers available, my current GP just calls me

> > a few days after each blood test to tell me whether I'm " high, low or

> > fine. " She gives very little in the way of details. I've tried to

> > probe, and she invariably says not to worry and says she has another

> > patient waiting. This is one of the other reasons I changing doctors.

>

> Just request a copy of your medical records and read the answer for

> yourself. They can't withhold the records from you although they may

> charge a fee for the copying.

>

> Brad

[Guest guest]

Larry-

I understand your apprehension about putting 'synthetic' drugs in

your body, which I share. I was curious too because we are putting

these substances in the body for the rest of a lifetime so it is wise

to understand the toxicity of these substances.

From what I have read, the esthers of testosterone are simple fatty

acids that are very easily broken down to water and CO2 - very quickly

once they are in the bloodstream. The human body is pretty good at

this metabolic pathway especially since these chemicals are already in

many of the foods we eat- and in much larger quantities than found in

weekly TRT shots. This is a whole lot easier to accept than some of

the SSRI's and MAOI's that I once allowed into my cerebrum. Hope that

helps.

Dano

[Guest guest]

5 grams AG from July thru Sept of 2004.

7.5 grams from end of September until mid June of 2005.

10 grams for last month (awaiting curret Total T and Free T test

results... and also to hear back from doc about switching over to Testim).

Should find out what our Free T level is. That's actually the more

important level just in that you could have " okay " total T and lousy

free T (which is the bioavailable version that isn't bound up).

E levels, especially E2 levels maybe too high (that will kill libido).

While " upping " the Total T levels might end up being " the " answer, you

have other test results needed to determine whether that's your base

problem or not.

Continuing to up Total T levels when you actually have elevated E2

will only make the problem worse.

Larry

> > > Hello all,

> > >

> > > I've spent the last day catching up on most of the

> > messages posted

> > > since the beginning of this Group. Quite

> > interesting and also oddly

> > > supporting; knowing that there are so many other

> > men out there in

> > > similar circumstances.

> > >

> > > To introduce myself, I'm a 47 year old hypogonadic

> > male. My

> > > physician has, so far, been unable to determine

> > the cause. I suspect

> > > that it developed as a child--negligible secondary

> > sexual

> > > characteristics, slight body development, you all

> > know the drill...

> > >

> > > I had suspected as far back as high school that

> > something was amiss,

> > > but met the familiar refrain of " just wait, it'll

> > kick in in a few

> > > years... " When I hit 34 I went to an

> > endocrinologist who said that

> > > my levels were low, but that he seldom prescribed

> > HRT because of the

> > > risks. Almost a decade passed and I found I was

> > becoming

> > > increasingly more depressed over the situation. I

> > heard about a test

> > > trial of an Androgel-like product being conducted

> > at s Hopkins

> > > University, went in for a check up, and discovered

> > that my T level

> > > was " 124 " . The people running the study were

> > frankly shocked that

> > > the earlier endocrinologist had not placed me on

> > HRT, and I've been

> > > on Androgel-prescribed by my GP for nearly 4 1/2

> > years.

> > >

> > > I have noticed improvement, but nothing as

> > pronounced as I had

> > > expected or hoped for.

> > >

> > > I've made an appointment with an excellent

> > endocrinologist, in hopes

> > > that he might have more informed answers; frankly,

> > my GP is a nice

> > > woman, but I'm beginning to suspect that she's out

> > of her depth on

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

> test'; " >

>

> __________________________________________________

>