Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

[Guest guest]

At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health model-

which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

" educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with life

situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that is

what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane to

me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

JB

[Guest guest]

At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health model-

which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

" educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with life

situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that is

what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane to

me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

JB

[Guest guest]

At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health model-

which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

" educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with life

situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that is

what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane to

me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

JB

[Guest guest]

Louree: No you're not going crazy. You were crazy before, now you're

going sane. I just told my mom I wasn't going to any more 12-Step

meetings and she was completely supportive. She got her degree in

anthropology and she knows a cult when she sees one. She says AA

qualifies because they have a " secondary prophet " -- Bill W. Mom knows

a lot about AA cause her brother and boyfriend both sobered up there

but left after a few years (and are still sober and doing OK). Her

opinion of 12-Steppers is even lower than mine.

[Guest guest]

Joe:

Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

> At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > I feel completely insane

> >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

> >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I

am

> >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

so

> >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what

I

> >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

deep

> >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

convinced

> >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

you

> >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

>

> Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

> you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

> age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

> sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

>

> One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

> up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

model-

> which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

> Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

> own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

> born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

life

> situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

> say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

is

> what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

to

> me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

>

> JB

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> http://clickhere./click/1701

>

>

>

> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joe:

Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

> At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > I feel completely insane

> >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

> >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I

am

> >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

so

> >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what

I

> >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

deep

> >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

convinced

> >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

you

> >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

>

> Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

> you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

> age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

> sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

>

> One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

> up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

model-

> which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

> Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

> own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

> born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

life

> situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

> say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

is

> what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

to

> me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

>

> JB

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> http://clickhere./click/1701

>

>

>

> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joe:

Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

> At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > I feel completely insane

> >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

> >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I

am

> >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

so

> >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what

I

> >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

deep

> >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

convinced

> >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

you

> >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

>

> Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't think

> you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a younger

> age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help you

> sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

>

> One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you soaked

> up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

model-

> which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known as

> Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust our

> own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we are

> born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

life

> situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model would

> say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

is

> what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

to

> me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

>

> JB

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> http://clickhere./click/1701

>

>

>

> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

no we are all nuts ha ha ha

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

>

>

> > At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > > I feel completely insane

> > >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such.

But

> > >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what

I

> am

> > >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

> so

> > >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats

what

> I

> > >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

> deep

> > >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

> convinced

> > >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

> you

> > >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> >

> > Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> > completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> > about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> > recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't

think

> > you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a

younger

> > age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help

you

> > sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

> >

> > One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> > functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you

soaked

> > up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

> model-

> > which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known

as

> > Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> > which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> > that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust

our

> > own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we

are

> > born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> > wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> > " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> > Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> > lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> > automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> > mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

> life

> > situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model

would

> > say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

> is

> > what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

> to

> > me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

> >

> > JB

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> > http://clickhere./click/1701

> >

> >

> >

> > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> > -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Easy as one, two, FREE! FREE shipping, Gift Wrap and

> ShimmerRing with any prurchase at iBeauty.com We have

> over 500 brands of frangrances, treatment, cosmetics.

> http://clickhere./click/1790

>

> eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

[Guest guest]

no we are all nuts ha ha ha

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

>

>

> > At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > > I feel completely insane

> > >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such.

But

> > >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what

I

> am

> > >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

> so

> > >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats

what

> I

> > >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

> deep

> > >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

> convinced

> > >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

> you

> > >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> >

> > Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> > completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> > about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> > recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't

think

> > you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a

younger

> > age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help

you

> > sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

> >

> > One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> > functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you

soaked

> > up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

> model-

> > which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known

as

> > Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> > which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> > that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust

our

> > own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we

are

> > born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> > wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> > " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> > Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> > lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> > automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> > mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

> life

> > situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model

would

> > say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

> is

> > what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

> to

> > me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

> >

> > JB

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> > http://clickhere./click/1701

> >

> >

> >

> > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> > -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Easy as one, two, FREE! FREE shipping, Gift Wrap and

> ShimmerRing with any prurchase at iBeauty.com We have

> over 500 brands of frangrances, treatment, cosmetics.

> http://clickhere./click/1790

>

> eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

[Guest guest]

no we are all nuts ha ha ha

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

>

>

> > At 10:46 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> > > I feel completely insane

> > >and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such.

But

> > >after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what

I

> am

> > >doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping

> so

> > >that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats

what

> I

> > >am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know

> deep

> > >down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they

> convinced

> > >me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If

> you

> > >cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> >

> > Hi- I just want to say you don't sound crazy to me at all; you sound

> > completely sane. More like someone who has been lied to for a long time

> > about important life issues and is just finding out. It can take time to

> > recover from believing in all that bs, but people do it, and I don't

think

> > you are fundamentally any different- you were just fed the bs at a

younger

> > age! But I would definitely consider finding a good therapist to help

you

> > sort it all out. They can help, if they are good.

> >

> > One other thought- what you have been fed is the disease model of human

> > functioning- this is the origin of the self-undermining beliefs you

soaked

> > up. What I found very useful to counteract this myself is the health

> model-

> > which is exactly what it sounds like. " Health realisation " (also known

as

> > Psychology of Mind) is a modern model of human psychological functioning

> > which is exactly the opposite of the disease model. Instead of believing

> > that we have something so badly wrong with us that we can never trust

our

> > own judgement or make our own decisions, the health model says that we

are

> > born with the innate capacity for mental health, healthy functioning,

> > wisdom, good feelings and self-guidance, but this capacity can be

> > " educated " into hiding away and most people are not aware of it.

> > Nevertheless it is there, in all of us, and functioning to a greater or

> > lesser extent. It is similar to the physical immune system, which

> > automatically helps us deal with invasive pathogens- except that it is a

> > mental immune system that we are born with which can help us deal with

> life

> > situations in a healthy way- whatever they may be. The health model

would

> > say that it is your innate healthy functioning that is emerging and that

> is

> > what is getting you through this. Like I said, you sound completely sane

> to

> > me. Just a bit traumatised, which is hardly surprising.

> >

> > JB

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

> > http://clickhere./click/1701

> >

> >

> >

> > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault

> > -- /docvault/12-step-free/?m=1

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Easy as one, two, FREE! FREE shipping, Gift Wrap and

> ShimmerRing with any prurchase at iBeauty.com We have

> over 500 brands of frangrances, treatment, cosmetics.

> http://clickhere./click/1790

>

> eGroups.com Home: /group/12-step-free/

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

[Guest guest]

The worst thing AA has done has been to teach victims that they are responsible

for what happened to them. My daughter-in-law had some checks stolen and forged

recently, and the bank and the cops treated her like s**t. She ended up feeling

guilty because someone stole her checks!

Please realize that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SICK BEHAVIOR!

Also, you are not responsible for the fact that you were dragged to meetings as

a child, when you were far less capable of reasoning things out than you would

have been as an adult.

If you have reached the state you describe, I guess I would recommend a

counsellor as soon as possible, but please make sure the counsellor is not a 12

step advocate. If you would say where you are located, possibly someone on the

list could steer you in a good direction.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor) But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

The worst thing AA has done has been to teach victims that they are responsible

for what happened to them. My daughter-in-law had some checks stolen and forged

recently, and the bank and the cops treated her like s**t. She ended up feeling

guilty because someone stole her checks!

Please realize that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SICK BEHAVIOR!

Also, you are not responsible for the fact that you were dragged to meetings as

a child, when you were far less capable of reasoning things out than you would

have been as an adult.

If you have reached the state you describe, I guess I would recommend a

counsellor as soon as possible, but please make sure the counsellor is not a 12

step advocate. If you would say where you are located, possibly someone on the

list could steer you in a good direction.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor) But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

The worst thing AA has done has been to teach victims that they are responsible

for what happened to them. My daughter-in-law had some checks stolen and forged

recently, and the bank and the cops treated her like s**t. She ended up feeling

guilty because someone stole her checks!

Please realize that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S SICK BEHAVIOR!

Also, you are not responsible for the fact that you were dragged to meetings as

a child, when you were far less capable of reasoning things out than you would

have been as an adult.

If you have reached the state you describe, I guess I would recommend a

counsellor as soon as possible, but please make sure the counsellor is not a 12

step advocate. If you would say where you are located, possibly someone on the

list could steer you in a good direction.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor) But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

At 18:09 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Joe:

>

>Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

>more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

>

>

Hi ,

www.pomhr.com

is the POM web site, but it (Psychology of Mind) can be a bit hard to grasp

at first. POM is a bit subtle, and they don't seem to give the simple and

clear (relatively speaking) explanations that they used to. I would

recommend the book " The Serenity Principle " by Joe (not me BTW)

which is available from the site- it is a slim volume with much more in it

than there is space for, if you see what I mean. And somewhere on that site

there is something they call a newsgroup that is actually a web-based

online discussion that is also available as a downloadable email list, and

that has discussion of POM on it and you can ask questions and so on- it is

quite informative sometimes. POM is the thing that saved my sanity when I

first started breaking away from the religious/incurable way of looking at

things. They have quite a lot of psychologists and other (real)

professionals on board, which is to my mind a good sign! And funnily enough

they say that the counsellor or therapist must model healthy psychological

functioning- themsleves- ie if they haven't got it they can't pass it on.

That probably sounds familiar I know but this time, its for real...

JB

[Guest guest]

At 18:09 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Joe:

>

>Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

>more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

>

>

Hi ,

www.pomhr.com

is the POM web site, but it (Psychology of Mind) can be a bit hard to grasp

at first. POM is a bit subtle, and they don't seem to give the simple and

clear (relatively speaking) explanations that they used to. I would

recommend the book " The Serenity Principle " by Joe (not me BTW)

which is available from the site- it is a slim volume with much more in it

than there is space for, if you see what I mean. And somewhere on that site

there is something they call a newsgroup that is actually a web-based

online discussion that is also available as a downloadable email list, and

that has discussion of POM on it and you can ask questions and so on- it is

quite informative sometimes. POM is the thing that saved my sanity when I

first started breaking away from the religious/incurable way of looking at

things. They have quite a lot of psychologists and other (real)

professionals on board, which is to my mind a good sign! And funnily enough

they say that the counsellor or therapist must model healthy psychological

functioning- themsleves- ie if they haven't got it they can't pass it on.

That probably sounds familiar I know but this time, its for real...

JB

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone that replied to this. Its just too overwhelming for me to

answer everyone of them. You guys are great.

As far as a counselor is concerned Im waiting to get a new counselor as we

speak Im supposedly going to have one within the month. I dont know if I can

go into a counselors office though and say gee did you know AA is a cult? It

is so accepted by the psychiatric community that I dont think that I could

get a counselor to believe me. If anyone knows someone in the Phoenix,

Arizona area that does please let me know. I would be happy to look into

seeing them. I definately think I need some help with this.

Anyways take care.

Louree

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone that replied to this. Its just too overwhelming for me to

answer everyone of them. You guys are great.

As far as a counselor is concerned Im waiting to get a new counselor as we

speak Im supposedly going to have one within the month. I dont know if I can

go into a counselors office though and say gee did you know AA is a cult? It

is so accepted by the psychiatric community that I dont think that I could

get a counselor to believe me. If anyone knows someone in the Phoenix,

Arizona area that does please let me know. I would be happy to look into

seeing them. I definately think I need some help with this.

Anyways take care.

Louree

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone that replied to this. Its just too overwhelming for me to

answer everyone of them. You guys are great.

As far as a counselor is concerned Im waiting to get a new counselor as we

speak Im supposedly going to have one within the month. I dont know if I can

go into a counselors office though and say gee did you know AA is a cult? It

is so accepted by the psychiatric community that I dont think that I could

get a counselor to believe me. If anyone knows someone in the Phoenix,

Arizona area that does please let me know. I would be happy to look into

seeing them. I definately think I need some help with this.

Anyways take care.

Louree

[Guest guest]

At 10:46 AM 11/25/99 -0700, Snazy wrote:

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

I think I've felt like that off and on. After two years of buying into

AA I started to question, and got the same old dismissals. The only real

answers were outsite the program (this was just the opposite of what they

said). I became a 'heretic' in AA, adopting that label (some people didn't

even know what the word heretic meant). I eventually found Bufe's

" AA Cult or Cure " , but by that time (another two years of being a heretic in

AA) I had came to the many of the same comclusions Bufe had, but it was so

affirming to actually read it in print.

I still spent several more years backing my way out of AA.

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

There were times when I felt like I was going crazy, and I spent years

learning what you've been learning in days. But the sense of betrayal can

be great.

For me AA was a continuation of the emotional abuse I got from my mother

growing up and continuing into adulthood, and even as a heretic there were

times when I thought an AA sponsor could help me. I had told him " I can't

stand up for myself " , and all he would say is " Ben, you CAN stand up for

yourself. " Or, " I don't have friends " and he responded " you Do have friends. "

I was trying to get help with serious emotional and social problems, and he

wouldn't even acknowledge what I was saying. He wouldn't take what I said

seriously, and I still want to beat the shit out of him for it.

This is the same sponsor that I wrote about a couple of years ago here:

<http://www.unhooked.com/email/keepers/kprbenb1.htm>

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I would second this, in finding someone who is not a 12 step advocate.

My therapist is a wonderful woman who knew it was no big deal when I

had a drink at a dance. Nothing bad happened to me, and she didn't

make me run to a meeting or scrub a floor with a toothbrush to repent.

She said " how do you feel about it? " I said " fine " . She said " fine " .

My therapist also read a book that I gave her which I told her would be

of significance, she was willing to do a little extra curricular work

to help me. Maybe you could get a book on cults -- The Hassan book or

one by Langone may be good. The phases for deprogramming from

cults are the same as the phases that I experienced leaving my 12 step

group. Maybe your therapist would be willing to self-educate about

cults & mind control a bit. Both books I'm thinking of " Combatting

Cult Mind Control " and " Recovery from Cults & Spiritual Abuse " have

advice for therapists.

Good luck!

Apple

> If you have reached the state you describe, I guess I would recommend

a counsellor as soon as possible, but please make sure the counsellor

is not a 12 step advocate. If you would say where you are located,

possibly someone on the list could steer you in a good direction.

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Joe

Re: Am I the only one going insane here?

> At 18:09 25/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

> >Joe:

> >

> >Your description of the " health model " facinates me! How can I find out

> >more? Homeostasis of the mind, kewl!

> >

> >

>

>

> Hi ,

>

> www.pomhr.com

>

> is the POM web site, but it (Psychology of Mind) can be a bit hard to

grasp

> at first. POM is a bit subtle, and they don't seem to give the simple and

> clear (relatively speaking) explanations that they used to. I would

> recommend the book " The Serenity Principle " by Joe (not me BTW)

> which is available from the site- it is a slim volume with much more in it

> than there is space for, if you see what I mean. And somewhere on that

site

> there is something they call a newsgroup that is actually a web-based

> online discussion that is also available as a downloadable email list, and

> that has discussion of POM on it and you can ask questions and so on- it

is

> quite informative sometimes. POM is the thing that saved my sanity when I

> first started breaking away from the religious/incurable way of looking at

> things. They have quite a lot of psychologists and other (real)

> professionals on board, which is to my mind a good sign! And funnily

enough

> they say that the counsellor or therapist must model healthy psychological

> functioning- themsleves- ie if they haven't got it they can't pass it on.

> That probably sounds familiar I know but this time, its for real...

>

>

> JB

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

> more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

> reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Louree, I truly hope you take care of yourself. Try not to concentrate

too much on AA's cult like aspect and focus on yourself. There are other

avenues outside of AA. The most common is therapy and group sessions. If

you feel like you are going crazy, antidepressants can be very helpful. The

main thing is for you to be healthy, physically and mentally. Meaning,

being able to sleep, eat and get the necessary stuff done (laundry, chores,

work).

And don't hate the AA members for being part of a sick organization.

They don't know any better. They all think their doing what's right.

What's screwed up is AA and other 12 step group's principles and religious

innuendos. We can't blame the messengers. We can only feel sorry for them

and hope they find out the truth about these programs.

Again Louree, if you are feeling miserable, you owe it to yourself to

seek out help. Not the kind of help that says, " pray about it " or " turn it

over " but professional help based in scientific fact.

Take care. Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Am I the only one going insane here?

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:46:45 -0700

>

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore

>its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was

>to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor)

>But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely

>insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my

>eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to

>that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did

>to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase

>I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up

>and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Louree, I truly hope you take care of yourself. Try not to concentrate

too much on AA's cult like aspect and focus on yourself. There are other

avenues outside of AA. The most common is therapy and group sessions. If

you feel like you are going crazy, antidepressants can be very helpful. The

main thing is for you to be healthy, physically and mentally. Meaning,

being able to sleep, eat and get the necessary stuff done (laundry, chores,

work).

And don't hate the AA members for being part of a sick organization.

They don't know any better. They all think their doing what's right.

What's screwed up is AA and other 12 step group's principles and religious

innuendos. We can't blame the messengers. We can only feel sorry for them

and hope they find out the truth about these programs.

Again Louree, if you are feeling miserable, you owe it to yourself to

seek out help. Not the kind of help that says, " pray about it " or " turn it

over " but professional help based in scientific fact.

Take care. Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Am I the only one going insane here?

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:46:45 -0700

>

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore

>its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was

>to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor)

>But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely

>insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my

>eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to

>that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did

>to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase

>I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up

>and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Louree, I truly hope you take care of yourself. Try not to concentrate

too much on AA's cult like aspect and focus on yourself. There are other

avenues outside of AA. The most common is therapy and group sessions. If

you feel like you are going crazy, antidepressants can be very helpful. The

main thing is for you to be healthy, physically and mentally. Meaning,

being able to sleep, eat and get the necessary stuff done (laundry, chores,

work).

And don't hate the AA members for being part of a sick organization.

They don't know any better. They all think their doing what's right.

What's screwed up is AA and other 12 step group's principles and religious

innuendos. We can't blame the messengers. We can only feel sorry for them

and hope they find out the truth about these programs.

Again Louree, if you are feeling miserable, you owe it to yourself to

seek out help. Not the kind of help that says, " pray about it " or " turn it

over " but professional help based in scientific fact.

Take care. Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Am I the only one going insane here?

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:46:45 -0700

>

>Today is day 3 since my discovery about AA. There is still no doubt in my

>mind that these people are sick psychos that prey on innocent and desperate

>minds, including children. I feel like I am going absolutely crazy though.

>Ive been obsessing about this and I cant stop thinking about everything I

>learned there and how it has affected my life even to this day. The more I

>think about it the more it becomes a snowball kind of effect. It goes kind

>of like this.....

> " The courage to change the things I can, oh yeah Im powerless over people

>places and things, wait thats sick thinking, I should control my own life,

>but my life is screwed up because of things that have been done to me, oh

>yeah but what role did I play in all of this, yes I did X Y Z, therefore

>its

>really my fault, wait but if I wouldnt have been taught to be passive and

>powerless, this wouldnt have happened, but if I wouldnt have allowed myself

>to learn that I was powerless, then this wouldnt have happened so I guess

>its my fault, besides the welfare of the group is more important than

>me.... " It goes on and on and on...............

>I havent slept well for days and Ive been having nightmares. I had a

>nightmare about some military man controlling the body of an infant to make

>her lay in an awkward position and he was chuckling about how easy it was

>to

>make this baby do something uncomfortable. (im sure its just a metaphor)

>But

>anyways in this dream, I ran to the kitchen and tried to grab a butcher

>knife so I could slit my own throat at watching that and was pinned down by

>an unknown adult to prevent me because i was " crazy. " After they let me go,

>I jumped up and pinned down the military man and held him by the throat ...

>If it werent for me being woken up I would have killed the bastard. ( gee

>hope i dont get busted for cussing here... no better word though .) But, it

>just goes to show me how I feel like i was so militantly controlled, how I

>took responsibility for it being my fault (I should die first not him) and

>how much rage I feel towards them.

> Ive taken to doing some obsessive and repeative things in the last few

>days that I havent done in years. All of them are self consoling behaviors

>like rocking, eating, certain kinds of repetative noises, even an infantile

>urge to suck on anything I can get my hands on etc. I feel completely

>insane

>and Im even worried that you guys are all going to label me as such. But

>after reading some of the stuff I have read lately, it seems like what I am

>doing are self-hypnotic ritualistic behaviors aimed at thought stopping so

>that I dont have to think about the truth. When I think about thats what I

>am doing I just feel even more crazy. No wonder I became crazy. I know deep

>down theres really nothing consitutionally wrong with me but they convinced

>me for years I am crazy, therefore I am? Isnt that the way it works? If you

>cant work the program, then you must be crazy?

> I called the local mental health crisis line last night bawling my

>eyes

>out because I couldnt sleep and was very nauseous and was feeling desperate

>and was afraid I was going to hurt myself. I told the woman I talked to

>that

>I realized the group my family was involved in was a cult and used mind

>control etc. and that it was very upsetting to me. She was very

>compassionate about it to some extent, although she really didnt understand

>what it did to my mind. She kept telling me to just stop thinking about it.

>Well, I tried unsuccessfully to explain to her that part of what they did

>to

>me was teach me how to obsess about this stuff. She didnt understand how I

>couldnt just stop thinking about it. She tried to get me to tell her the

>name of the group my family was involved in but I wouldnt tell her becuase

>I

>just knew if I said AA she would turn from compassionate to " oh your just

>crazy. "

>Needless to say, I didnt get much sleep last night. Now I have to get up

>and

>do Thanksgiving. ARRRGGGGHHH!

> Anyways, am I the only one going through this? Please tell me Im not

>going crazy!

>Louree

>

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In the market for computer hardware or software? Compare prices on

>more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

>reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

>

>

>

>

>

>-- Check out your group's private Chat room

>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________