Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Hey . The clinic I attended presents a unique meeting format, where we started out in a large group to discuss an article, then split up into smaller groups to discuss our problem and our solutions. Finally, we broke up into 3 separate meetings for Rational Recovery, SMART, and MM. The guy who runs the clinic made an interesting comment. Someone asked about Women for Sobriety and why there was no WFS meeting at the clinic. He replied that there were other meetings available around town for WFS, and also that they were not particularly cooperative with his clinic. He said, " the AA alternatives hate each other almost as much as they hate AA. " Weird, huh? And unfortunate. But maybe just one person's perspective. Judith > Truly cool Judith, > Sounds like we are on a similar page. My abstinence/moderation is going very well and I am confident that it will continue to do so. I've logged onto a MM Egroup and am considering starting a meeting here in San Diego. That 12 step alternative meeting you are attending sounds fantastic. Do they have a standardized format that can be replicated do they just fly by the seat of their pants?> ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Hey . The clinic I attended presents a unique meeting format, where we started out in a large group to discuss an article, then split up into smaller groups to discuss our problem and our solutions. Finally, we broke up into 3 separate meetings for Rational Recovery, SMART, and MM. The guy who runs the clinic made an interesting comment. Someone asked about Women for Sobriety and why there was no WFS meeting at the clinic. He replied that there were other meetings available around town for WFS, and also that they were not particularly cooperative with his clinic. He said, " the AA alternatives hate each other almost as much as they hate AA. " Weird, huh? And unfortunate. But maybe just one person's perspective. Judith > Truly cool Judith, > Sounds like we are on a similar page. My abstinence/moderation is going very well and I am confident that it will continue to do so. I've logged onto a MM Egroup and am considering starting a meeting here in San Diego. That 12 step alternative meeting you are attending sounds fantastic. Do they have a standardized format that can be replicated do they just fly by the seat of their pants?> ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Judith, > Which format are you into now? > SMART. It's an offshoot of RR but doesn't use the Addictive Voice concept of RR. Instead, they use Rational Emotive or Cognitive Behavioral therapy. More or less learning first to recognize knee-jerk emotional reactions and second, to re-think them. I was in a Cognitive Behavioral therapy group for depression and I found it pretty helpful. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Truly cool Judith, Sounds like we are on a similar page. My abstinence/moderation is going very well and I am confident that it will continue to do so. I've logged onto a MM Egroup and am considering starting a meeting here in San Diego. That 12 step alternative meeting you are attending sounds fantastic. Do they have a standardized format that can be replicated do they just fly by the seat of their pants? Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Last night I went to my first 12 step alternative meeting. It was cool! I > was really nervous about it. My experience with AA 15 years ago was this > big emotional boil and I kind of lanced it by coming here to 12 step free > and expressing my feelings. It's amazing what an atmosphere of acceptance > can do for a person's mental health, and that's what I believe 12 step free > provides: an atmosphere of acceptance. > > It was uncomfortable but beneficial for me that Jim K was here, he kind of > put a face on the icky side of AA for me. (Now Jim, don't take that the > wrong way. I'm not expressing gratitude here, why should I be grateful to > someone who hangs around making snide comments. I'm just patting myself on > the back for utilizing you as a resource in my recovery from AA > > I was so afraid to go to ANY kind of meeting. I took many months before > committing to any plan for moderation/abstinence, because I wasn't having > any big problems. Abstinence/moderation is something I want to do for > myself. > > At the 12 step alternative clinic where I attended my first meeting last > night, no one asked for detailed information. It is confidential. It is > inexpensive, by donation only, but it is certainly worth at least a $20 > donation each week to me, to have access to and support this kind of > environment. > > At one point, we were talking about our emotions, and I just said " I don't > really want to go there right now. " And the guy who runs the clinic said > that was cool, we are respectful of people's boundaries here. Wow! > Boundaries! What a concept. > > Anyway, I feel really good about it, very optimistic. I haven't been > sharing much optimism here of late, and it's good to be feeling up again. > > Judith > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/630 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Truly cool Judith, Sounds like we are on a similar page. My abstinence/moderation is going very well and I am confident that it will continue to do so. I've logged onto a MM Egroup and am considering starting a meeting here in San Diego. That 12 step alternative meeting you are attending sounds fantastic. Do they have a standardized format that can be replicated do they just fly by the seat of their pants? Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Last night I went to my first 12 step alternative meeting. It was cool! I > was really nervous about it. My experience with AA 15 years ago was this > big emotional boil and I kind of lanced it by coming here to 12 step free > and expressing my feelings. It's amazing what an atmosphere of acceptance > can do for a person's mental health, and that's what I believe 12 step free > provides: an atmosphere of acceptance. > > It was uncomfortable but beneficial for me that Jim K was here, he kind of > put a face on the icky side of AA for me. (Now Jim, don't take that the > wrong way. I'm not expressing gratitude here, why should I be grateful to > someone who hangs around making snide comments. I'm just patting myself on > the back for utilizing you as a resource in my recovery from AA > > I was so afraid to go to ANY kind of meeting. I took many months before > committing to any plan for moderation/abstinence, because I wasn't having > any big problems. Abstinence/moderation is something I want to do for > myself. > > At the 12 step alternative clinic where I attended my first meeting last > night, no one asked for detailed information. It is confidential. It is > inexpensive, by donation only, but it is certainly worth at least a $20 > donation each week to me, to have access to and support this kind of > environment. > > At one point, we were talking about our emotions, and I just said " I don't > really want to go there right now. " And the guy who runs the clinic said > that was cool, we are respectful of people's boundaries here. Wow! > Boundaries! What a concept. > > Anyway, I feel really good about it, very optimistic. I haven't been > sharing much optimism here of late, and it's good to be feeling up again. > > Judith > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online. > Start with up to 150 Points for joining! > http://clickhere./click/630 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 That sounds wonderful How did you find it???? kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > That sounds wonderful How did you find it???? kathy On the SMART Recovery web site, they have a list of meetings across the US. There were 2 listed in Minnesota, the one I attended in Minneapolis, and one at Rochester State Prison. So I called and got the info. But it took me about 3 weeks to get the courage to go Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > That sounds wonderful How did you find it???? kathy On the SMART Recovery web site, they have a list of meetings across the US. There were 2 listed in Minnesota, the one I attended in Minneapolis, and one at Rochester State Prison. So I called and got the info. But it took me about 3 weeks to get the courage to go Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Which city is this in Judith?> Hi Apple, it's in Minneapolis. > I'm so impressed and thrilled to hear of this format. I think it's great that all 3 groups are offered at one location!!! That way people can try out different ones to see which fits. > The clinic owner, Bob Muscala, has seen your website! We discussed it when I first called him. He likes it as much as we all do >I would go to something similar if it was around, but truthfully, I don't feel that I have any symptoms that would lead to drinking right now. I'm having a grand time with my therapist, whom I trust so far, and with whom I'm going to tackle some major issues. I'm looking forward to the pain followed by the relief. I feel strong enough to do it.> That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been in therapy all summer and oh boy, do I know what you mean about major issues. But...there was something therapeutic about going to this meeting, too. I guess further validation that it wasn't me who was wrong 15 years ago. Just knowing it's there as a resource is comforting. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Which city is this in Judith?> Hi Apple, it's in Minneapolis. > I'm so impressed and thrilled to hear of this format. I think it's great that all 3 groups are offered at one location!!! That way people can try out different ones to see which fits. > The clinic owner, Bob Muscala, has seen your website! We discussed it when I first called him. He likes it as much as we all do >I would go to something similar if it was around, but truthfully, I don't feel that I have any symptoms that would lead to drinking right now. I'm having a grand time with my therapist, whom I trust so far, and with whom I'm going to tackle some major issues. I'm looking forward to the pain followed by the relief. I feel strong enough to do it.> That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been in therapy all summer and oh boy, do I know what you mean about major issues. But...there was something therapeutic about going to this meeting, too. I guess further validation that it wasn't me who was wrong 15 years ago. Just knowing it's there as a resource is comforting. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Which city is this in Judith?> Hi Apple, it's in Minneapolis. > I'm so impressed and thrilled to hear of this format. I think it's great that all 3 groups are offered at one location!!! That way people can try out different ones to see which fits. > The clinic owner, Bob Muscala, has seen your website! We discussed it when I first called him. He likes it as much as we all do >I would go to something similar if it was around, but truthfully, I don't feel that I have any symptoms that would lead to drinking right now. I'm having a grand time with my therapist, whom I trust so far, and with whom I'm going to tackle some major issues. I'm looking forward to the pain followed by the relief. I feel strong enough to do it.> That makes a lot of sense to me. I've been in therapy all summer and oh boy, do I know what you mean about major issues. But...there was something therapeutic about going to this meeting, too. I guess further validation that it wasn't me who was wrong 15 years ago. Just knowing it's there as a resource is comforting. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Joe, I have heard a different side of that story, from one of the professionals involved in RR prior to the split. He is the owner of the clinic I attended, which has been around for 20 years. When I initially talked to him a few weeks ago I told him I was interested in SMART, told him what I knew about it. I have a pro-SMART bias and made no effort to hide that. He more or less defended Jack Trimpey and RR then, on the phone; and last night at the meeting he said he thought Jack Trimpey was probably the best addiction counselor in the US. Still, he provides SMART and MM as well and I think he would provide others if he had the staff to do so. I am pretty sure he's got a RR bias but what the hey. As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you Judith > I would say that describing SMART as " an offshoot of RR " doesn't really do > it justice. In reality, RR is an offshoot of the cognitive recovery > movement. Originally RR used cognitive methods and a scientific approach > but Jack Trimpey decided to ditch that and just use AVRT (a cognitive > method of dealing solely with the appetite for intoxication) on its own. > The various professionals who had been involved in RR up to that point did > not share JT's enthusiasm either for AVRT or for dropping the rest of the > cognitive approach and so went on to form SMART to continue doing what they > believed in. So it might actually make more sense to say that RR is an > offshoot of SMART! > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Joe, I have heard a different side of that story, from one of the professionals involved in RR prior to the split. He is the owner of the clinic I attended, which has been around for 20 years. When I initially talked to him a few weeks ago I told him I was interested in SMART, told him what I knew about it. I have a pro-SMART bias and made no effort to hide that. He more or less defended Jack Trimpey and RR then, on the phone; and last night at the meeting he said he thought Jack Trimpey was probably the best addiction counselor in the US. Still, he provides SMART and MM as well and I think he would provide others if he had the staff to do so. I am pretty sure he's got a RR bias but what the hey. As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you Judith > I would say that describing SMART as " an offshoot of RR " doesn't really do > it justice. In reality, RR is an offshoot of the cognitive recovery > movement. Originally RR used cognitive methods and a scientific approach > but Jack Trimpey decided to ditch that and just use AVRT (a cognitive > method of dealing solely with the appetite for intoxication) on its own. > The various professionals who had been involved in RR up to that point did > not share JT's enthusiasm either for AVRT or for dropping the rest of the > cognitive approach and so went on to form SMART to continue doing what they > believed in. So it might actually make more sense to say that RR is an > offshoot of SMART! > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Joe, I have heard a different side of that story, from one of the professionals involved in RR prior to the split. He is the owner of the clinic I attended, which has been around for 20 years. When I initially talked to him a few weeks ago I told him I was interested in SMART, told him what I knew about it. I have a pro-SMART bias and made no effort to hide that. He more or less defended Jack Trimpey and RR then, on the phone; and last night at the meeting he said he thought Jack Trimpey was probably the best addiction counselor in the US. Still, he provides SMART and MM as well and I think he would provide others if he had the staff to do so. I am pretty sure he's got a RR bias but what the hey. As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you Judith > I would say that describing SMART as " an offshoot of RR " doesn't really do > it justice. In reality, RR is an offshoot of the cognitive recovery > movement. Originally RR used cognitive methods and a scientific approach > but Jack Trimpey decided to ditch that and just use AVRT (a cognitive > method of dealing solely with the appetite for intoxication) on its own. > The various professionals who had been involved in RR up to that point did > not share JT's enthusiasm either for AVRT or for dropping the rest of the > cognitive approach and so went on to form SMART to continue doing what they > believed in. So it might actually make more sense to say that RR is an > offshoot of SMART! > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Judith, Which format are you into now? Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Hey . The clinic I attended presents a unique meeting format, where we > started out in a large group to discuss an article, then split up into > smaller groups to discuss our problem and our solutions. Finally, we broke > up into 3 separate meetings for Rational Recovery, SMART, and MM. > > The guy who runs the clinic made an interesting comment. Someone asked > about Women for Sobriety and why there was no WFS meeting at the clinic. He > replied that there were other meetings available around town for WFS, and > also that they were not particularly cooperative with his clinic. He said, > " the AA alternatives hate each other almost as much as they hate AA. " > Weird, huh? And unfortunate. But maybe just one person's perspective. > > Judith > > > > > Truly cool Judith, > > Sounds like we are on a similar page. My abstinence/moderation is going > very well and I am confident that it will continue to do so. I've logged > onto a MM Egroup and am considering starting a meeting here in San Diego. > That 12 step alternative meeting you are attending sounds fantastic. Do they > have a standardized format that can be replicated do they just fly by the > seat of their pants?> > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today! > http://clickhere./click/606 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Judith Stillwater wrote: > > At one point, we were talking about our emotions, and I just said " I don't > really want to go there right now. " And the guy who runs the clinic said > that was cool, we are respectful of people's boundaries here. Wow! > Boundaries! What a concept. > Wow, Judith, what a difference from " standard " (12-step-based) treatment. One of the most revolting and damaging aspects of the kind of " treatment " that I experienced was IMO the implicit assumption that ANY boundaries are " wrong " , that the purpose of tx is to mold people into a mindset that any kind of privacy and personal space is pathological ( " isolating " -- will lead to " stinking thinking " followed by " relapse " !!!). I guess removing any sense of selfhood is the best way to prepare folks to accept cult devotion. I'm glad you've found an atmosphere in which you're comfortable and treated with respect. ~Rita --------------------------------------- > Last night I went to my first 12 step alternative meeting. It was cool! I > was really nervous about it. My experience with AA 15 years ago was this > big emotional boil and I kind of lanced it by coming here to 12 step free > and expressing my feelings. It's amazing what an atmosphere of acceptance > can do for a person's mental health, and that's what I believe 12 step free > provides: an atmosphere of acceptance. > > It was uncomfortable but beneficial for me that Jim K was here, he kind of > put a face on the icky side of AA for me. (Now Jim, don't take that the > wrong way. I'm not expressing gratitude here, why should I be grateful to > someone who hangs around making snide comments. I'm just patting myself on > the back for utilizing you as a resource in my recovery from AA > > I was so afraid to go to ANY kind of meeting. I took many months before > committing to any plan for moderation/abstinence, because I wasn't having > any big problems. Abstinence/moderation is something I want to do for > myself. > > At the 12 step alternative clinic where I attended my first meeting last > night, no one asked for detailed information. It is confidential. It is > inexpensive, by donation only, but it is certainly worth at least a $20 > donation each week to me, to have access to and support this kind of > environment. > > At one point, we were talking about our emotions, and I just said " I don't > really want to go there right now. " And the guy who runs the clinic said > that was cool, we are respectful of people's boundaries here. Wow! > Boundaries! What a concept. > > Anyway, I feel really good about it, very optimistic. I haven't been > sharing much optimism here of late, and it's good to be feeling up again. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Wow, Judith, what a difference from " standard " (12-step-based) treatment. One of the most revolting and damaging aspects of the kind of " treatment " that I experienced was IMO the implicit assumption that ANY boundaries are " wrong " , that the purpose of tx is to mold people into a mindset that any kind of privacy and personal space is pathological ( " isolating " -- will lead to " stinking thinking " followed by " relapse " !!!). I guess removing any sense of selfhood is the best way to prepare folks to accept cult devotion.> I agree...(shudder...) > I'm glad you've found an atmosphere in which you're comfortable and treated with respect.> Thanks Rita. I wish it had been around 15 years ago but better late than never. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Wow, Judith, what a difference from " standard " (12-step-based) treatment. One of the most revolting and damaging aspects of the kind of " treatment " that I experienced was IMO the implicit assumption that ANY boundaries are " wrong " , that the purpose of tx is to mold people into a mindset that any kind of privacy and personal space is pathological ( " isolating " -- will lead to " stinking thinking " followed by " relapse " !!!). I guess removing any sense of selfhood is the best way to prepare folks to accept cult devotion.> I agree...(shudder...) > I'm glad you've found an atmosphere in which you're comfortable and treated with respect.> Thanks Rita. I wish it had been around 15 years ago but better late than never. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 > Wow, Judith, what a difference from " standard " (12-step-based) treatment. One of the most revolting and damaging aspects of the kind of " treatment " that I experienced was IMO the implicit assumption that ANY boundaries are " wrong " , that the purpose of tx is to mold people into a mindset that any kind of privacy and personal space is pathological ( " isolating " -- will lead to " stinking thinking " followed by " relapse " !!!). I guess removing any sense of selfhood is the best way to prepare folks to accept cult devotion.> I agree...(shudder...) > I'm glad you've found an atmosphere in which you're comfortable and treated with respect.> Thanks Rita. I wish it had been around 15 years ago but better late than never. Judith ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 At 03:46 PM 8/6/99 PDT, you wrote: > > >> Judith, >> Which format are you into now? >> > >SMART. It's an offshoot of RR but doesn't use the Addictive Voice concept >of RR. Instead, they use Rational Emotive or Cognitive Behavioral therapy. >More or less learning first to recognize knee-jerk emotional reactions and >second, to re-think them. I was in a Cognitive Behavioral therapy group for >depression and I found it pretty helpful. > >Judith I would say that describing SMART as " an offshoot of RR " doesn't really do it justice. In reality, RR is an offshoot of the cognitive recovery movement. Originally RR used cognitive methods and a scientific approach but Jack Trimpey decided to ditch that and just use AVRT (a cognitive method of dealing solely with the appetite for intoxication) on its own. The various professionals who had been involved in RR up to that point did not share JT's enthusiasm either for AVRT or for dropping the rest of the cognitive approach and so went on to form SMART to continue doing what they believed in. So it might actually make more sense to say that RR is an offshoot of SMART! Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 Which city is this in Judith? I'm so impressed and thrilled to hear of this format. I think it's great that all 3 groups are offered at one location!!! That way people can try out different ones to see which fits. I would go to something similar if it was around, but truthfully, I don't feel that I have any symptoms that would lead to drinking right now. I'm having a grand time with my therapist, whom I trust so far, and with whom I'm going to tackle some major issues. I'm looking forward to the pain followed by the relief. I feel strong enough to do it. Apple > Hey . The clinic I attended presents a unique meeting format, where we > started out in a large group to discuss an article, then split up into > smaller groups to discuss our problem and our solutions. Finally, we broke > up into 3 separate meetings for Rational Recovery, SMART, and MM. > > The guy who runs the clinic made an interesting comment. Someone asked > about Women for Sobriety and why there was no WFS meeting at the clinic. He > replied that there were other meetings available around town for WFS, and > also that they were not particularly cooperative with his clinic. He said, > " the AA alternatives hate each other almost as much as they hate AA. " > Weird, huh? And unfortunate. But maybe just one person's perspective. > > Judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 1999 Report Share Posted August 7, 1999 At 08:48 PM 8/6/99 PDT, you wrote: >As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART >broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. > >uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last >word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude >or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you > >Judith Hi Judith, no you don't sound rude or offensive at all. But the which-came-first thing is interesting, well to me anyway. The NAME of RR came first, but what it actually was, was a cognitive and science-based approach to recovery that was supported by many professionals, psychologists and so on. When JT dumped science, those professionals abandoned ship and carried on what they were doing with SMART. My point is that the cognitive approach preceded RR's current approach and thus RR (as it is now) is an offshoot of the cognitive approach. I think it is important simply in that SMART represents a scientific and knowledge-based approach to helping people to recover and it has some real continuity into the past, and representing it as an offshoot of RR makes it sound like an afterthought, which it isn't, or a development of RR philosophy, which it isn't either. It is science's and cognitive psychology's answer to recovery from addiction. It was going (under the RR name) before RR as it is now existed. The important compnent here (in my opinion) is not the name, which JT changed the meaning of, but the philosophy. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 1999 Report Share Posted August 7, 1999 At 08:48 PM 8/6/99 PDT, you wrote: >As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART >broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. > >uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last >word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude >or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you > >Judith Hi Judith, no you don't sound rude or offensive at all. But the which-came-first thing is interesting, well to me anyway. The NAME of RR came first, but what it actually was, was a cognitive and science-based approach to recovery that was supported by many professionals, psychologists and so on. When JT dumped science, those professionals abandoned ship and carried on what they were doing with SMART. My point is that the cognitive approach preceded RR's current approach and thus RR (as it is now) is an offshoot of the cognitive approach. I think it is important simply in that SMART represents a scientific and knowledge-based approach to helping people to recover and it has some real continuity into the past, and representing it as an offshoot of RR makes it sound like an afterthought, which it isn't, or a development of RR philosophy, which it isn't either. It is science's and cognitive psychology's answer to recovery from addiction. It was going (under the RR name) before RR as it is now existed. The important compnent here (in my opinion) is not the name, which JT changed the meaning of, but the philosophy. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 1999 Report Share Posted August 7, 1999 At 08:48 PM 8/6/99 PDT, you wrote: >As far as which group is an offshoot of which, RR existed first and SMART >broke away from it, so I believe I described the situation accurately. > >uhhhh....I hope I don't sound defensive here, I'd have let you have the last >word except I don't want to be rude either, by not responding at all! Rude >or defensive, ack, I don't want to be either to you > >Judith Hi Judith, no you don't sound rude or offensive at all. But the which-came-first thing is interesting, well to me anyway. The NAME of RR came first, but what it actually was, was a cognitive and science-based approach to recovery that was supported by many professionals, psychologists and so on. When JT dumped science, those professionals abandoned ship and carried on what they were doing with SMART. My point is that the cognitive approach preceded RR's current approach and thus RR (as it is now) is an offshoot of the cognitive approach. I think it is important simply in that SMART represents a scientific and knowledge-based approach to helping people to recover and it has some real continuity into the past, and representing it as an offshoot of RR makes it sound like an afterthought, which it isn't, or a development of RR philosophy, which it isn't either. It is science's and cognitive psychology's answer to recovery from addiction. It was going (under the RR name) before RR as it is now existed. The important compnent here (in my opinion) is not the name, which JT changed the meaning of, but the philosophy. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 Hey --Joe put it well. I can't think of a thing to add. j > At 09:49 AM 8/9/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi Judith, > >Does Smart deal with moderation as well? > > > > It is an abstinence-oriented program, but abstinence can mean two things- it can mean total abstinence, or it can mean abstinence from addictive behaviour. If the addictive behaviour was drinking to a damaging extent every day (for example) and that person can manage moderate drinking without harmful consequences, then that moderation would be regarded as abstinence from the addictive behaviour. In other words it isn't quite as cut-and-dried as the black and whiters of this world would like. I think most people involved in SMART practise total abstinence but some moderate. The point is to use the techniques to establish whatever works for the person, not just adopt a set of mindless rules. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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