Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 My version of that is going back to the EAP office where everyone knew so well what was wrong with me, and was so happy to have an opportunity to tell me how arrogant and egotistical and full of self-pity I was, and just say, " you were wrong 15 years ago. " Mine is just a fantasy because a) it wouldn't change anyone's mind, might even sway people in the direction of AA, and it would make me feel vulnerable, which I already feel in spades. I have that fantasy a lot less now than I did a short while ago, because here I am able to talk back to AA people who enjoy telling others that they are arrogant and egotistical and full of self-pity, simply because they disagree with AA. I especially loved hearing the phrase " I pray for you " used as an alternative to " fuck you. " I think the only person unaware that the meaning of both phrases was identical, was the " speaker. " ( M wrote that at the end of her hate mail.) For what it's worth, Apple, I think you reach a lot of people in AA more effectively with your website than you would by going directly to a meeting. I think your website is credible and eloquent, whereas you could be perceived as a " terrorist " if you " sabotaged " a meeting. As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need you! and as long as I'm on my soapbox, I'll use this opportunity to say that every AA group should have a mandated reporter, who is obligated to go to the police (at the VERY least a mental health professional) if they deem someone a risk to themselves or others. maybe a social worker would volunteer for such a role. It makes me angry to think that some scuzbucket has a greater right to privacy than I do just because they attend AA meetings. judith > Am I alone here? I frequently have fantasies about going back to meetings. One recurring daydream is going back to the dreaded meeting where it all clicked for me, raising my hand and announcing that I finally did step 7.... humbly asked Him to remove my shortcomings... and bygolly, It worked!!! > > I also dream about exposing the 13th stepper who the predator piece is about. > ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 What I meant was that, if Apple tried to expose a predator in a group where he is not seen as a predator, but rather as an upstanding man, her efforts might backfire on her. Rather than making him look bad in the eyes of the group, they may think she's just making up stories or acting like a victim. It seems like what you said supports that. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself well enough to get my point across, sometimes I get a little wordy. judith > In a message dated 8/15/99 6:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > j_stillwater@... writes: > > << As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I > never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the > group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting > yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and > the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd > believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they > don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on > the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need > you! > >> > > > I did not find this in my experience unless P. was not a predator because I > was an adult when I met him when he was " counselor " while I was in > " treatment " . (I got the treatment allright!) Anyway, after we were living > together and engaged I went to a three month live in program that I had > signed up for while still in the initial treatment and before I moved in with > him. He did not want me to go when a bed became available. After all, I had > AA 24/7 with him. Honestly, I needed a reprieve. And I thought being away > from him for awhile would give me time to rethink this whole " instant > marriage " deal. And would he object, being Mr AA? You bet he did! The > first month was free except for an occasional phone call after two > weeks. But when I had my first overnight he told me that " everyone " as in > his home group and others on the P committee, said it was time to come > " home " . In other words, he needed sex. I did not want to leave. The place > I was staying was AA heavy, however they were hammering in my head that 13 > stepping was wrong, that I didn't have a chance if I went back to him. I > cried as I carried my stuff out of there on a Sunday night. Of course he > didn't want me to wait until Monday when the staff would be there to talk me > out of it. I am embarrassed to write all this because I was such a silly > woman. But it was very open regarding what our relationship was at the many, > many meetings this upstanding AA man went to. And the fact that he was a > counselor, that he was 13 stepping, etc. mattered not one iota. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 What I meant was that, if Apple tried to expose a predator in a group where he is not seen as a predator, but rather as an upstanding man, her efforts might backfire on her. Rather than making him look bad in the eyes of the group, they may think she's just making up stories or acting like a victim. It seems like what you said supports that. I'm sorry if I didn't express myself well enough to get my point across, sometimes I get a little wordy. judith > In a message dated 8/15/99 6:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > j_stillwater@... writes: > > << As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I > never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the > group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting > yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and > the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd > believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they > don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on > the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need > you! > >> > > > I did not find this in my experience unless P. was not a predator because I > was an adult when I met him when he was " counselor " while I was in > " treatment " . (I got the treatment allright!) Anyway, after we were living > together and engaged I went to a three month live in program that I had > signed up for while still in the initial treatment and before I moved in with > him. He did not want me to go when a bed became available. After all, I had > AA 24/7 with him. Honestly, I needed a reprieve. And I thought being away > from him for awhile would give me time to rethink this whole " instant > marriage " deal. And would he object, being Mr AA? You bet he did! The > first month was free except for an occasional phone call after two > weeks. But when I had my first overnight he told me that " everyone " as in > his home group and others on the P committee, said it was time to come > " home " . In other words, he needed sex. I did not want to leave. The place > I was staying was AA heavy, however they were hammering in my head that 13 > stepping was wrong, that I didn't have a chance if I went back to him. I > cried as I carried my stuff out of there on a Sunday night. Of course he > didn't want me to wait until Monday when the staff would be there to talk me > out of it. I am embarrassed to write all this because I was such a silly > woman. But it was very open regarding what our relationship was at the many, > many meetings this upstanding AA man went to. And the fact that he was a > counselor, that he was 13 stepping, etc. mattered not one iota. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 In a message dated 8/15/99 6:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, j_stillwater@... writes: << As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need you! >> I did not find this in my experience unless P. was not a predator because I was an adult when I met him when he was " counselor " while I was in " treatment " . (I got the treatment allright!) Anyway, after we were living together and engaged I went to a three month live in program that I had signed up for while still in the initial treatment and before I moved in with him. He did not want me to go when a bed became available. After all, I had AA 24/7 with him. Honestly, I needed a reprieve. And I thought being away from him for awhile would give me time to rethink this whole " instant marriage " deal. And would he object, being Mr AA? You bet he did! The first month was free except for an occasional phone call after two weeks. But when I had my first overnight he told me that " everyone " as in his home group and others on the P committee, said it was time to come " home " . In other words, he needed sex. I did not want to leave. The place I was staying was AA heavy, however they were hammering in my head that 13 stepping was wrong, that I didn't have a chance if I went back to him. I cried as I carried my stuff out of there on a Sunday night. Of course he didn't want me to wait until Monday when the staff would be there to talk me out of it. I am embarrassed to write all this because I was such a silly woman. But it was very open regarding what our relationship was at the many, many meetings this upstanding AA man went to. And the fact that he was a counselor, that he was 13 stepping, etc. mattered not one iota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 In a message dated 8/15/99 6:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, j_stillwater@... writes: << As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need you! >> I did not find this in my experience unless P. was not a predator because I was an adult when I met him when he was " counselor " while I was in " treatment " . (I got the treatment allright!) Anyway, after we were living together and engaged I went to a three month live in program that I had signed up for while still in the initial treatment and before I moved in with him. He did not want me to go when a bed became available. After all, I had AA 24/7 with him. Honestly, I needed a reprieve. And I thought being away from him for awhile would give me time to rethink this whole " instant marriage " deal. And would he object, being Mr AA? You bet he did! The first month was free except for an occasional phone call after two weeks. But when I had my first overnight he told me that " everyone " as in his home group and others on the P committee, said it was time to come " home " . In other words, he needed sex. I did not want to leave. The place I was staying was AA heavy, however they were hammering in my head that 13 stepping was wrong, that I didn't have a chance if I went back to him. I cried as I carried my stuff out of there on a Sunday night. Of course he didn't want me to wait until Monday when the staff would be there to talk me out of it. I am embarrassed to write all this because I was such a silly woman. But it was very open regarding what our relationship was at the many, many meetings this upstanding AA man went to. And the fact that he was a counselor, that he was 13 stepping, etc. mattered not one iota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 In a message dated 8/15/99 6:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, j_stillwater@... writes: << As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need you! >> I did not find this in my experience unless P. was not a predator because I was an adult when I met him when he was " counselor " while I was in " treatment " . (I got the treatment allright!) Anyway, after we were living together and engaged I went to a three month live in program that I had signed up for while still in the initial treatment and before I moved in with him. He did not want me to go when a bed became available. After all, I had AA 24/7 with him. Honestly, I needed a reprieve. And I thought being away from him for awhile would give me time to rethink this whole " instant marriage " deal. And would he object, being Mr AA? You bet he did! The first month was free except for an occasional phone call after two weeks. But when I had my first overnight he told me that " everyone " as in his home group and others on the P committee, said it was time to come " home " . In other words, he needed sex. I did not want to leave. The place I was staying was AA heavy, however they were hammering in my head that 13 stepping was wrong, that I didn't have a chance if I went back to him. I cried as I carried my stuff out of there on a Sunday night. Of course he didn't want me to wait until Monday when the staff would be there to talk me out of it. I am embarrassed to write all this because I was such a silly woman. But it was very open regarding what our relationship was at the many, many meetings this upstanding AA man went to. And the fact that he was a counselor, that he was 13 stepping, etc. mattered not one iota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 Judith, no you make sense. I can be as thick as a brick sometimes. Kathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 1999 Report Share Posted August 15, 1999 Hi Judith: You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all think I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one of the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. Apple > > As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with AA, I > never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by the > group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting > yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the group and > the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think they'd > believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil they > don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would be on > the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we need > you! > > and as long as I'm on my soapbox, I'll use this opportunity to say that > every AA group should have a mandated reporter, who is obligated to go to > the police (at the VERY least a mental health professional) if they deem > someone a risk to themselves or others. maybe a social worker would > volunteer for such a role. It makes me angry to think that some scuzbucket > has a greater right to privacy than I do just because they attend AA > meetings. > > judith > > > > > > Am I alone here? I frequently have fantasies about going back to > meetings. One recurring daydream is going back to the dreaded meeting where > it all clicked for me, raising my hand and announcing that I finally did > step 7.... humbly asked Him to remove my shortcomings... and bygolly, It > worked!!! > > > > I also dream about exposing the 13th stepper who the predator piece is > about. > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Thanks, . That is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Thanks, . That is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Thanks, . That is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Hi apple, folks This wasnt an SOS list, it was a Moderation Management list. I think three ppl reported it, none of whom were active members but were groupers lurking, one of whom was AA Nazi Jim Shirk. The Police were not interested until the man himself confessed to them. The fact it was an MM group meant it got massive publicity from the grouper-friendly media, who failed to report that a murder confession has been made in an AA meeting and most of the members didnt think it should be reported either. P. > Hi Judith: > You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if > the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could > be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much > of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out > commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women > don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and > they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all think > I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. > > There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm > wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the > police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was > an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members > confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one of > the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the > listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. > > Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Hi apple, folks This wasnt an SOS list, it was a Moderation Management list. I think three ppl reported it, none of whom were active members but were groupers lurking, one of whom was AA Nazi Jim Shirk. The Police were not interested until the man himself confessed to them. The fact it was an MM group meant it got massive publicity from the grouper-friendly media, who failed to report that a murder confession has been made in an AA meeting and most of the members didnt think it should be reported either. P. > Hi Judith: > You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if > the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could > be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much > of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out > commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women > don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and > they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all think > I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. > > There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm > wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the > police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was > an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members > confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one of > the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the > listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. > > Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 Hi apple, folks This wasnt an SOS list, it was a Moderation Management list. I think three ppl reported it, none of whom were active members but were groupers lurking, one of whom was AA Nazi Jim Shirk. The Police were not interested until the man himself confessed to them. The fact it was an MM group meant it got massive publicity from the grouper-friendly media, who failed to report that a murder confession has been made in an AA meeting and most of the members didnt think it should be reported either. P. > Hi Judith: > You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if > the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could > be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much > of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out > commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women > don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and > they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all think > I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. > > There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm > wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the > police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was > an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members > confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one of > the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the > listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. > > Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 In the keen vision of hindsight, AA is hardly a hotbed of mental and emotional health. So when i fit in I was not exactly up to my best thinking. When I left I had finally gotten a grip on myself again. Today I hold that thought; I have a grip on myself. > At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: > >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on > >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have > >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal > >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > > > > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery > when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' > (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to > various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were > still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, > and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. > ----- > <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 In the keen vision of hindsight, AA is hardly a hotbed of mental and emotional health. So when i fit in I was not exactly up to my best thinking. When I left I had finally gotten a grip on myself again. Today I hold that thought; I have a grip on myself. > At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: > >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on > >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have > >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal > >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > > > > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery > when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' > (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to > various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were > still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, > and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. > ----- > <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 In the keen vision of hindsight, AA is hardly a hotbed of mental and emotional health. So when i fit in I was not exactly up to my best thinking. When I left I had finally gotten a grip on myself again. Today I hold that thought; I have a grip on myself. > At 03:07 AM 8/16/1999 -0700, rashley@... wrote: > >What would really be embarrassing would be if you couldn't reflect on > >poor past judgement and were slated to repeat more of the same. I have > >made better judgements than being in AA yet it was part of my personal > >evolution no doubt about it. I don't have to be that limited again. > > > > > > I remember a lot of people saying they were 'stuck' in their recovery > when they/we (I was one of them) were simply stuck in AA. We read 'liberal' > (con-Conference approved) literature such as " stage II recovery " , went to > various different (non-AA) 12-step meetings, but for the most part we were > still stuck. What it was for me was baby steps towards going out the door, > and in that sense I can see it all as part of my 'personal evolution'. > ----- > <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 1999 Report Share Posted August 16, 1999 This was the MM list, and yes, there was a big upset. But most of the list members did not believe him. He later confessed to the police. kayleigh-@... wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=7479 > Hi Judith: > You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if > the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could > be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much > of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out > commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women > don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and > they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all think > I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. > > There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm > wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the > police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was > an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members > confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one of > the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the > listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. > > Apple > > > > As for exposing the predator, because of my limited experience with > AA, I > > never directly saw the side of AA where predators were tolerated by > the > > group. If a group is that dysfunctional, I believe you'd be putting > > yourself at significant risk if you actually said, in front of the > group and > > the man, " this guy is a dangerous sexual predator. " I don't think > they'd > > believe you. You'd be the outsider, the dangerous element, the devil > they > > don't know. As such, you'd be less than human, and hurting you would > be on > > the order of swatting a mosquito. Protect yourself, girlfriend, we > need > > you! > > > > and as long as I'm on my soapbox, I'll use this opportunity to say > that > > every AA group should have a mandated reporter, who is obligated to > go to > > the police (at the VERY least a mental health professional) if they > deem > > someone a risk to themselves or others. maybe a social worker would > > volunteer for such a role. It makes me angry to think that some > scuzbucket > > has a greater right to privacy than I do just because they attend AA > > meetings. > > > > judith > > > > > > > > > > > Am I alone here? I frequently have fantasies about going back to > > meetings. One recurring daydream is going back to the dreaded > meeting where > > it all clicked for me, raising my hand and announcing that I finally > did > > step 7.... humbly asked Him to remove my shortcomings... and bygolly, > It > > worked!!! > > > > > > I also dream about exposing the 13th stepper who the predator piece > is > > about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 --- >This was the MM list, and yes, there was a big upset. But most of the >list members did not believe him. He later confessed to the police. > Yes, the Larry Froistad fiasco. But really there is no similarity to AA steps/confessions/amends and their supposed sanctity. The MM list was moderated by a licensed and respected psychologist, who thought Froistad might have been suffering from delusional depression (which often involves erroneously believing oneself guilty of heinous crimes) and urged him to seek professional assistance immediately, even giving him referrals to several colleagues in his county of residence. It was a judgement call. The pro-AA counselor lurking on the list (Shirk) thought the police should ascertain the truth or falsehood of the confession (which involved a fire several years earlier which wasn't even considered to be arson at the time) and only at that point should Froistad seek therapy. Shirk turned out to have done the right thing. It was a bizarre human drama, with many heavy ethical issues involved. Ethics are not any consideration in AA meetings, I don't think. ~Rita >Apple wrote: >> Hi Judith: >> You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if >> the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could >> be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much >> of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out >> commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women >> don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and >> they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all >think >> I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. >> >> There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm >> wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the >> police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was >> an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members >> confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one >of >> the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the >> listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. >> >> Apple > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 --- >This was the MM list, and yes, there was a big upset. But most of the >list members did not believe him. He later confessed to the police. > Yes, the Larry Froistad fiasco. But really there is no similarity to AA steps/confessions/amends and their supposed sanctity. The MM list was moderated by a licensed and respected psychologist, who thought Froistad might have been suffering from delusional depression (which often involves erroneously believing oneself guilty of heinous crimes) and urged him to seek professional assistance immediately, even giving him referrals to several colleagues in his county of residence. It was a judgement call. The pro-AA counselor lurking on the list (Shirk) thought the police should ascertain the truth or falsehood of the confession (which involved a fire several years earlier which wasn't even considered to be arson at the time) and only at that point should Froistad seek therapy. Shirk turned out to have done the right thing. It was a bizarre human drama, with many heavy ethical issues involved. Ethics are not any consideration in AA meetings, I don't think. ~Rita >Apple wrote: >> Hi Judith: >> You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if >> the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could >> be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much >> of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out >> commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women >> don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and >> they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all >think >> I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. >> >> There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm >> wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the >> police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was >> an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members >> confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one >of >> the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the >> listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. >> >> Apple > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 --- >This was the MM list, and yes, there was a big upset. But most of the >list members did not believe him. He later confessed to the police. > Yes, the Larry Froistad fiasco. But really there is no similarity to AA steps/confessions/amends and their supposed sanctity. The MM list was moderated by a licensed and respected psychologist, who thought Froistad might have been suffering from delusional depression (which often involves erroneously believing oneself guilty of heinous crimes) and urged him to seek professional assistance immediately, even giving him referrals to several colleagues in his county of residence. It was a judgement call. The pro-AA counselor lurking on the list (Shirk) thought the police should ascertain the truth or falsehood of the confession (which involved a fire several years earlier which wasn't even considered to be arson at the time) and only at that point should Froistad seek therapy. Shirk turned out to have done the right thing. It was a bizarre human drama, with many heavy ethical issues involved. Ethics are not any consideration in AA meetings, I don't think. ~Rita >Apple wrote: >> Hi Judith: >> You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if >> the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could >> be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much >> of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out >> commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women >> don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and >> they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all >think >> I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. >> >> There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm >> wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the >> police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was >> an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members >> confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one >of >> the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the >> listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. >> >> Apple > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 Hi Rita, folks Imo The fact that Froistad did in fact confess to the Police later doesnt actually even prove that he did it (by the delusional argument), let alone prove that Shirk did the right thing - not least because the POlice werent interested UNTIL froistad confessed himself. Pete On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:44:02 -0700 Railroad Rita wrote: > > > --- > > > > > > >This was the MM list, and yes, there was a big upset. But most of the > >list members did not believe him. He later confessed to the police. > > > > Yes, the Larry Froistad fiasco. But really there is no similarity to AA steps/confessions/amends and their supposed sanctity. The MM list was moderated by a licensed and respected psychologist, who thought Froistad might have been suffering from delusional depression (which often involves erroneously believing oneself guilty of heinous crimes) and urged him to seek professional assistance immediately, even giving him referrals to several colleagues in his county of residence. It was a judgement call. The pro-AA counselor lurking on the list (Shirk) thought the police should ascertain the truth or falsehood of the confession (which involved a fire several years earlier which wasn't even considered to be arson at the time) and only at that point should Froistad seek therapy. Shirk turned out to have done the right thing. > > It was a bizarre human drama, with many heavy ethical issues involved. Ethics are not any consideration in AA meetings, I don't think. > > ~Rita > > > >Apple wrote: > > >> Hi Judith: > >> You make some excellent points. The AA nark would never happen, and if > >> the scenario in your first paragraph were true, and I suspect it could > >> be, because the predator I'm speaking of, the one who inspired so much > >> of the site, is the self-appointed leader of the group. He hands out > >> commitments, sponsors many newcomers and the like. A lot of the women > >> don't like him, but I don't think they know how dangerous he is, and > >> they've chosen to be patient & tolerant. In this group, they all > >think > >> I " m the wacko, and I'd be the one they'd put away. > >> > >> There is an unwritten policy in 12 step groups (correct me guys if I'm > >> wrong), that a sponsor, should not report things confessed to the > >> police. this loosely applies to other members too. In fact, there was > >> an uproar a few months ago on the SOS list when one of the members > >> confessed to having murdered his daughter (?) in a blackout, and one > >of > >> the listmembers passed this information on to the police. Some of the > >> listmembers I hear were upset by the breech of confidence. > >> > >> Apple > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today! > http://clickhere./click/606 > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ---------------------- Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychotherapy/Pharmacotherapy Outocomes Discussion PERSONALITY-DISORDERS Support/Discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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