Re: hell's bells after the altar

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh,

I see that now! Re: Pete's post.

I seem to remember studying matriarchal tribes/societies in anthropology

when I was in college, many years ago, hmmm....didn't get into eastern

cultures at all. I guess I missed a lot there.

I guess we have it pretty good, considering.

>From: kayleighs@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:26:55 -0700

>

>Yes, but , I don't think the Japanese have a lot of respect for

>women.

>

> wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6866

> > Jan,

> >

> > Absolutely. I have more confidence than I have ever had. Most times

>I

> > really feel better self-esteem-wise than I ever have. Of course,

>there are

> > those times you spoke of where Pamela Lee rears her ugly

> > breasts...!

> >

> > I watch Charlie look at other women. Sometimes he comments-and it's

>usually

> > a critique. He doesn't read those kind of magazines. In fact, a few

>weeks

> > ago, he commented that years ago in the shop, there would be Playboys

>and

> > Hustlers laying around (He is a supervisor for skilled trades). As

>he and

> > the guys have gotten older, it's Field and Stream and Guns and Ammo.

> I

> > thought the comment was very revealing and observant.

> >

> > The older I get, the more I wish I were Japanese. It's one culture I

>know

> > of that respects the elders.!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:32:06 -0400

> > >

> > >,

> > >

> > >How true! Quite often, when I think of myself as 'used up' I've

>got to

> > >remember that, at least in America, our culture is youth oriented.

>We are

> > >raised to make fun of the elderly, make beauty and fitness the

>ultimate

> > >goal. How many examples do we see on television programs of our

> > >enlightened

> > >youth subtly and directly correcting ideas and values of anyone over

>30.

> > >Like we don't have a clue about life. I truly believe much of the

> > >depression here is a direct result of frustration of trying to

>compete

> > >with

> > >the 'beautiful people' in the entertainment industry. I certainly

>felt

> > >more

> > >plain Jane when my husband watched 'Baywatch' and then looked and

>compared

> > >me to Pamela Lee ! Time magazine had a cover story on

>infidelity a

> > >few years back which stated (from a study) that after husbands look

>at the

> > >centerfolds in Playboy, they are less affectionate to their wives

>for a

> > >spell. Which will start seeds of doubt in any gal's mind about her

>worth.

> > >What's going through the mind of a woman whose husband (boyfriend)

>daily

> > >seeks out pictures, films, television shows like that.

> > >

> > >Jan

> > >

> > >

> > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >> >Hi Jan,

> > > >> >> >Your right.

> > > >> >> >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

>lbs. I

> > >long

> > > >>ago

> > > >> >> >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

>etc. yet

> > > >>when

> > > >> >> >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave her

>a car,

> > > >>paid

> > > >> >> >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money to

>finish

> > > >>school

> > > >> >> >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

>do, we

> > >got

> > >a

> > > >> >> >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

>couple of

> > > >>hearts

> > > >> >> >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be moving

>on

> > >without

> > > >> >> >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > >> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > >> >> >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >Jan

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >>

> > > >>

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >> >> >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE

>Rewards

> > >points,

> > > >> >> >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online

>today!

> > > >> >> >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> >> > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >>

> > > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

>-------

> > > >> >>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

> > > >> >>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at

>checkout

> > > >> >>http://clickhere./click/615

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> >> - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >_______________________________________________________________

> > > >> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> > > >> >

> > > >>

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >> >Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start

>earning

> > > >> >FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> > > >> >http://clickhere./click/449

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

>-------

> > > >>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

> > > >>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at

>checkout

> > > >>http://clickhere./click/615

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> - Simplifying group communications

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >_______________________________________________________________

> > > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> > > >

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards

>points,

> > > >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

> > > >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

>http://clickhere./click/449

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh,

I see that now! Re: Pete's post.

I seem to remember studying matriarchal tribes/societies in anthropology

when I was in college, many years ago, hmmm....didn't get into eastern

cultures at all. I guess I missed a lot there.

I guess we have it pretty good, considering.

>From: kayleighs@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:26:55 -0700

>

>Yes, but , I don't think the Japanese have a lot of respect for

>women.

>

> wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6866

> > Jan,

> >

> > Absolutely. I have more confidence than I have ever had. Most times

>I

> > really feel better self-esteem-wise than I ever have. Of course,

>there are

> > those times you spoke of where Pamela Lee rears her ugly

> > breasts...!

> >

> > I watch Charlie look at other women. Sometimes he comments-and it's

>usually

> > a critique. He doesn't read those kind of magazines. In fact, a few

>weeks

> > ago, he commented that years ago in the shop, there would be Playboys

>and

> > Hustlers laying around (He is a supervisor for skilled trades). As

>he and

> > the guys have gotten older, it's Field and Stream and Guns and Ammo.

> I

> > thought the comment was very revealing and observant.

> >

> > The older I get, the more I wish I were Japanese. It's one culture I

>know

> > of that respects the elders.!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:32:06 -0400

> > >

> > >,

> > >

> > >How true! Quite often, when I think of myself as 'used up' I've

>got to

> > >remember that, at least in America, our culture is youth oriented.

>We are

> > >raised to make fun of the elderly, make beauty and fitness the

>ultimate

> > >goal. How many examples do we see on television programs of our

> > >enlightened

> > >youth subtly and directly correcting ideas and values of anyone over

>30.

> > >Like we don't have a clue about life. I truly believe much of the

> > >depression here is a direct result of frustration of trying to

>compete

> > >with

> > >the 'beautiful people' in the entertainment industry. I certainly

>felt

> > >more

> > >plain Jane when my husband watched 'Baywatch' and then looked and

>compared

> > >me to Pamela Lee ! Time magazine had a cover story on

>infidelity a

> > >few years back which stated (from a study) that after husbands look

>at the

> > >centerfolds in Playboy, they are less affectionate to their wives

>for a

> > >spell. Which will start seeds of doubt in any gal's mind about her

>worth.

> > >What's going through the mind of a woman whose husband (boyfriend)

>daily

> > >seeks out pictures, films, television shows like that.

> > >

> > >Jan

> > >

> > >

> > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >> >Hi Jan,

> > > >> >> >Your right.

> > > >> >> >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

>lbs. I

> > >long

> > > >>ago

> > > >> >> >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

>etc. yet

> > > >>when

> > > >> >> >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave her

>a car,

> > > >>paid

> > > >> >> >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money to

>finish

> > > >>school

> > > >> >> >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

>do, we

> > >got

> > >a

> > > >> >> >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

>couple of

> > > >>hearts

> > > >> >> >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be moving

>on

> > >without

> > > >> >> >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > >> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > >> >> >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >Jan

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >>

> > > >>

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >> >> >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE

>Rewards

> > >points,

> > > >> >> >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online

>today!

> > > >> >> >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> >> > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >> >

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >>

> > > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

>-------

> > > >> >>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

> > > >> >>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at

>checkout

> > > >> >>http://clickhere./click/615

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> >> - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >>

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >_______________________________________________________________

> > > >> >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> > > >> >

> > > >>

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >> >Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start

>earning

> > > >> >FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> > > >> >http://clickhere./click/449

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >> >

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>-----------------------------------------------------------------

>-------

> > > >>GET $10 OFF ANY ORDER @ healthshop.com! No min. purchase req.

> > > >>Save on vitamins & supplements. Use coupon code: EGROUPS at

>checkout

> > > >>http://clickhere./click/615

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > >> - Simplifying group communications

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >_______________________________________________________________

> > > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

> > > >

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

>------

> > > >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards

>points,

> > > >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!

> > > >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > > - Simplifying group communications

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

>FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

>http://clickhere./click/449

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

If you are both financially secure, and secure in the relationship,

perhaps there is no reason to get married.

I knew a couple that was engaged for 18 years and didn't marry until

she began to have some major medical problems. She was a free-lance

writer, and didn't have health insurance, of course, so they married so

she could get treatment.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6939

> Hi Kayleigh;

>

> You are right. The Kennedy thing was just an excuse to feel bad, I

think.

> I know we'll get married eventually, but sometimes I get anxious.

I'm

> compulsive and sometimes it gets the best of me. I need to let

Charlie

> grieve his son in his own time. Neither one of us is hot on

therapists or

> counselors, my 20 or so experiences with psychologists,

psychiatrists, etc.

>

> Charlie feels he knows how to grieve-he lost his father 6 years ago

this

> past July. The conflict is within me. I am very fortunate to have a

person

> like Charlie in my life to begin with, looking back over my personal

history

> with abusive men. He is highly intelligent academically (2 masters

degrees,

> poli sci and eng.) and it extends into how he deals with people. I

have

> watched him deal with people I know he absolutely abhors and he can

be

> outgoing and pleasant; as though they are his best friend. It just

floors

> me to watch. If I don't care for a person, they know it; it shows

all over

> my face. He has a lot of control with his emotions. That's

something I

> don't have right now.

>

> We've been together for nearly three years. Even though there have

been

> some tremendous upheavals and traumas, the relationship has only

become more

> cemented. I go off on tangents because I disassociate under stress,

and the

> anger can simply carry me away. Charlie knows that and deals very

well with

> it. I am in the best relationship I have ever been in in my life. I

will

> not give up on this. He treats me very well. I need to remember

that this

> is the way he has always treated me and that this will continue. We

have

> considered ourselves married from the beginning-we've made

subconscious

> slips about it. The committment is there. It's just a delay.

>

> Thanks for your help. If anybody does the therapy thing, it'll be

me. Only

> if I REALLY can't find any other way.

>

> Love,

>

>

>

> >From: kayleighs@...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:13:46 -0700

> >

> >I just read the Rory Kennedy thing today, and made my mind I wouldn't

> >bring it up, but there you went and did it.

> >

> >Her situation's different, isn't it? She never knew her dad, she

never

> >knew JFK, and until Jackie O. died, she didn't even know JFK, Jr.

> >

> >I guess you and Charlie are in a sort of no-win situation at this

> >point. I hope you can resolve it. Have you found a grief counselor

> >who can do you some good?

> >

> > wrote:

> >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=68

60

> > > Kayleigh:

> > >

> > > I think it's both of us right now. Nick was Charlie's favorite

son.

> >It

> > > happens. A child gets favored. It's been almost four months now

and

> >he is

> > > still grieving.

> > >

> > > But I think it's also the way I'm taking things. I feel jilted,

> >worthless

> > > and very up-and-down.

> > >

> > > He tells me we will get married when it can be a joyous occasion,

but

> >the

> > > more time that goes by, the less hope I have. He wants me to feel

> >better

> > > about myself before we get married, but I tell him the way I will

> >feel

> > > better is to go ahead and get married.

> > >

> > > I just wanted to cry when I saw that Rory Kennedy got married

already.

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: kayleighs@...

> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 20:32:25 -0700

> > > >

> > > >Just tell me to get lost if I'm prying, but what prevents you

from

> > > >getting married now? I can understand that you couldn't after

the

> > > >tremendous loss both of you suffered, but does something still

stand

> >in

> > > >the way of it?

> > > >

> > > > wrote:

> > > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?star

t=67

> >95

> > > > > , Jan;

> > > > >

> > > > > I know you've probably read my lamentations regarding some of

the

> > > > > particulars of my last divorce. It was my second. I was not

out

> >to

> > > > " get "

> > > > > my ex. I wanted to be treated fairly. It was obvious to me

that

> >I

> > > >had to

> > > > > get out of an abusive situation.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was pretty messy, he was a real a**hole throughout the

whole

> > > >proceeding;

> > > > > lied, had his friends lie, was manipulative and verbally

abusive

> > > >after I

> > > > > moved out...I'm glad it's over. Funny, for him, it was all

about

> > > >getting

> > > > > the most of everything-which he did. In fact, one thing I

really

> > > >hate him

> > > > > for is the fact that after the divorce was final, instead of

going

> > > >through

> > > > > the house we were selling and offering to allow me to take

out my

> > > >high

> > > > > school yearbooks, pictures and personal momentoes from my

> >childhood,

> > > >he

> > > > > threw EVERYTHING away.

> > > > >

> > > > > After the smoke cleared two years later and the papers were

> >signed, I

> > > >guess

> > > > > things have worked out pretty good.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ex and his wife live in FLA. She works for an airline,

so my

> > > >daughter

> > > > > flies for free and can visit me anytime. It was her decision

to

> >go

> > > >with her

> > > > > father. We have joint custody and there is no child support

and

> > > >everything

> > > > > concerning future litigation concerning custody and support is

> > > >already

> > > > > covered in the JOD. Still, my skin crawls when I have to be

> >around

> > > > > him...wish I had felt that BEFORE I got involved with him in

the

> > > >first

> > > > > place...live and learn...

> > > > >

> > > > > My first husband left me with three kids to raise. I wouldn't

> > > >recognize him

> > > > > on the street, it's been so long. I know my kids are hurt by

the

> > > > > abandonment, but they know I've been there for them and will

> >always

> > > >be

> > > > > there.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jan, I'm only a few years younger than you and feel like I'm

> >looking

> > > >at my

> > > > > mother in the mirror.

> > > > >

> > > > > Both of these guys were abusive and I got real good at makeup

> > > >application

> > > > > after a bad night. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't bring the

> >abuse on

> > > >to

> > > > > myself and if I verbalize that around my fiance, he tells me

I'm

> >full

> > > >of it.

> > > > > NOBODY deserves it. #1 left me financially and emotionally

> > > >destitute, and

> > > > > #2 left me almost that and a lot more.

> > > > >

> > > > > So some days I could care less if Charlie and I ever get

married

> >or I

> > > >just

> > > > > don't know if I want to and other days I feel like we gotta

do it

> > > >before one

> > > > > of us croaks. How's that for stability?!

> > > > >

> > > > > So I do like you do...I go work on my garden, work on my

indoor

> > > >plants,

> > > > > write-a lot, sometimes. I do something that pleases me. I

think

> >I

> > > >know how

> > > > > you feel. I have a lot of the thoughts you wrote of and

> >sometimes I

> > > >wonder

> > > > > if I'm better off alone and not in a relationship. And

there are

> > > >the more

> > > > > lucid times, when I just accept " what is " , quit analyzing and

just

> > > >enjoy my

> > > > > life, which is better than it's ever been.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:58:52 -0400

> > > > > >

> > > > > >, I agree, I've seen and heard of men taken to the

> >cleaners

> > > >by

> > > > > >divorce. And there have been many women left with kids to

raise

> >by

> > > > > >themselves and having to spend their spare time tracking

down the

> > > >dead beat

> > > > > >dads for much needed child support. It's a shitty world we

> >live in

> > > > > >sometimes, ain't it. I've usually just tried to go on with

my

> >life

> > > >and

> > > > > >walk

> > > > > >away from the creeps in my life, but this time I've had

enough.

> >On

> > > >the one

> > > > > >hand, I'm surprised (and a little relieved) that I'm not

looking

> >for

> > > >a

> > > > > >romantic replacement, but I must admit, there are days when

all

> >I

> > > >think is

> > > > > >no one will want me now. I'm 48, out of shape, I look in the

> >mirror

> > > >and go

> > > > > >ugh now, I've been married twice and had way too many

> >bittersweet

> > > > > >romances.

> > > > > >When I start thinking like that now I bury myself in a good

> >book, or

> > > >work

> > > > > >on

> > > > > >learning web site publication or taking care of things in my

> >dad's

> > > >house

> > > > > >that he's let go since my mother died. It helps me keep

sane,

> >but

> > > >there's

> > > > > >still a part of me that thinks she's got nothing worthwhile

to

> >offer

> > > > > >people.

> > > > > >I don't know if those self-defeating thoughts are a result

> >totally

> > > >of my

> > > > > >husband's criticisms, belittling, controlling, and making me

> >know of

> > > >how

> > > > > >many women were coming on to him, and raising his fist in my

> >face a

> > > >few

> > > > > >times because I did the unpardonable (once the soup was too

hot

> > > >another

> > > > > >time

> > > > > >all I did was ask, what the hell are you talking to me like

that

> > > >for). Why

> > > > > >his fist never eventually hit my face, I don't know. Maybe I

> >come

> > > >across

> > > > > >as

> > > > > >more ballsy than I think I am. All I know is he did a major

> >mental

> > > >number

> > > > > >on me that I've never experienced before. For the first

time in

> >my

> > > >life

> > > > > >I'm

> > > > > >in a right back atcha prick mood. I've also been told from

other

> > > >women

> > > > > >that

> > > > > >I need to stay angry at him for now, because it could be real

> >easy

> > > >to

> > > > > >forget

> > > > > >the ugliness that consumed most of our marriage, and only

> >remember

> > > >the

> > > > > >sweet

> > > > > >times that were only short spells. If I allow myself to be

> > > >heartbroken

> > > > > >most

> > > > > >of the time, it will only destroy me further.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Also, typing this stuff to this list has been therapeutic

for me.

> > > >I'm

> > > > > >getting alot out of my system in a 'safe' place so as not to

> > > >interfere with

> > > > > >work and other responsibilities. Bear with me gang and

thank you

> > > >all for

> > > > > >letting me vent.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Jan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Jan,

> > > > > > >Your right.

> > > > > > >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

lbs. I

> > > >long ago

> > > > > > >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

etc.

> >yet

> > > >when

> > > > > > >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave

her a

> >car,

> > > >paid

> > > > > > >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money to

> >finish

> > > >school

> > > > > > >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

do,

> >we

> > > >got a

> > > > > > >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

couple

> >of

> > > >hearts

> > > > > > >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be

moving on

> > > >without

> > > > > > >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > > > > >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------

----

> >----

> > > >------

> > > > > > >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE

Rewards

> > > >points,

> > > > > > >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply

online

> >today!

> > > > > > >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > > > > > - Simplifying group communications

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If you are both financially secure, and secure in the relationship,

perhaps there is no reason to get married.

I knew a couple that was engaged for 18 years and didn't marry until

she began to have some major medical problems. She was a free-lance

writer, and didn't have health insurance, of course, so they married so

she could get treatment.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6939

> Hi Kayleigh;

>

> You are right. The Kennedy thing was just an excuse to feel bad, I

think.

> I know we'll get married eventually, but sometimes I get anxious.

I'm

> compulsive and sometimes it gets the best of me. I need to let

Charlie

> grieve his son in his own time. Neither one of us is hot on

therapists or

> counselors, my 20 or so experiences with psychologists,

psychiatrists, etc.

>

> Charlie feels he knows how to grieve-he lost his father 6 years ago

this

> past July. The conflict is within me. I am very fortunate to have a

person

> like Charlie in my life to begin with, looking back over my personal

history

> with abusive men. He is highly intelligent academically (2 masters

degrees,

> poli sci and eng.) and it extends into how he deals with people. I

have

> watched him deal with people I know he absolutely abhors and he can

be

> outgoing and pleasant; as though they are his best friend. It just

floors

> me to watch. If I don't care for a person, they know it; it shows

all over

> my face. He has a lot of control with his emotions. That's

something I

> don't have right now.

>

> We've been together for nearly three years. Even though there have

been

> some tremendous upheavals and traumas, the relationship has only

become more

> cemented. I go off on tangents because I disassociate under stress,

and the

> anger can simply carry me away. Charlie knows that and deals very

well with

> it. I am in the best relationship I have ever been in in my life. I

will

> not give up on this. He treats me very well. I need to remember

that this

> is the way he has always treated me and that this will continue. We

have

> considered ourselves married from the beginning-we've made

subconscious

> slips about it. The committment is there. It's just a delay.

>

> Thanks for your help. If anybody does the therapy thing, it'll be

me. Only

> if I REALLY can't find any other way.

>

> Love,

>

>

>

> >From: kayleighs@...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:13:46 -0700

> >

> >I just read the Rory Kennedy thing today, and made my mind I wouldn't

> >bring it up, but there you went and did it.

> >

> >Her situation's different, isn't it? She never knew her dad, she

never

> >knew JFK, and until Jackie O. died, she didn't even know JFK, Jr.

> >

> >I guess you and Charlie are in a sort of no-win situation at this

> >point. I hope you can resolve it. Have you found a grief counselor

> >who can do you some good?

> >

> > wrote:

> >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=68

60

> > > Kayleigh:

> > >

> > > I think it's both of us right now. Nick was Charlie's favorite

son.

> >It

> > > happens. A child gets favored. It's been almost four months now

and

> >he is

> > > still grieving.

> > >

> > > But I think it's also the way I'm taking things. I feel jilted,

> >worthless

> > > and very up-and-down.

> > >

> > > He tells me we will get married when it can be a joyous occasion,

but

> >the

> > > more time that goes by, the less hope I have. He wants me to feel

> >better

> > > about myself before we get married, but I tell him the way I will

> >feel

> > > better is to go ahead and get married.

> > >

> > > I just wanted to cry when I saw that Rory Kennedy got married

already.

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: kayleighs@...

> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 20:32:25 -0700

> > > >

> > > >Just tell me to get lost if I'm prying, but what prevents you

from

> > > >getting married now? I can understand that you couldn't after

the

> > > >tremendous loss both of you suffered, but does something still

stand

> >in

> > > >the way of it?

> > > >

> > > > wrote:

> > > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?star

t=67

> >95

> > > > > , Jan;

> > > > >

> > > > > I know you've probably read my lamentations regarding some of

the

> > > > > particulars of my last divorce. It was my second. I was not

out

> >to

> > > > " get "

> > > > > my ex. I wanted to be treated fairly. It was obvious to me

that

> >I

> > > >had to

> > > > > get out of an abusive situation.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was pretty messy, he was a real a**hole throughout the

whole

> > > >proceeding;

> > > > > lied, had his friends lie, was manipulative and verbally

abusive

> > > >after I

> > > > > moved out...I'm glad it's over. Funny, for him, it was all

about

> > > >getting

> > > > > the most of everything-which he did. In fact, one thing I

really

> > > >hate him

> > > > > for is the fact that after the divorce was final, instead of

going

> > > >through

> > > > > the house we were selling and offering to allow me to take

out my

> > > >high

> > > > > school yearbooks, pictures and personal momentoes from my

> >childhood,

> > > >he

> > > > > threw EVERYTHING away.

> > > > >

> > > > > After the smoke cleared two years later and the papers were

> >signed, I

> > > >guess

> > > > > things have worked out pretty good.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ex and his wife live in FLA. She works for an airline,

so my

> > > >daughter

> > > > > flies for free and can visit me anytime. It was her decision

to

> >go

> > > >with her

> > > > > father. We have joint custody and there is no child support

and

> > > >everything

> > > > > concerning future litigation concerning custody and support is

> > > >already

> > > > > covered in the JOD. Still, my skin crawls when I have to be

> >around

> > > > > him...wish I had felt that BEFORE I got involved with him in

the

> > > >first

> > > > > place...live and learn...

> > > > >

> > > > > My first husband left me with three kids to raise. I wouldn't

> > > >recognize him

> > > > > on the street, it's been so long. I know my kids are hurt by

the

> > > > > abandonment, but they know I've been there for them and will

> >always

> > > >be

> > > > > there.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jan, I'm only a few years younger than you and feel like I'm

> >looking

> > > >at my

> > > > > mother in the mirror.

> > > > >

> > > > > Both of these guys were abusive and I got real good at makeup

> > > >application

> > > > > after a bad night. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't bring the

> >abuse on

> > > >to

> > > > > myself and if I verbalize that around my fiance, he tells me

I'm

> >full

> > > >of it.

> > > > > NOBODY deserves it. #1 left me financially and emotionally

> > > >destitute, and

> > > > > #2 left me almost that and a lot more.

> > > > >

> > > > > So some days I could care less if Charlie and I ever get

married

> >or I

> > > >just

> > > > > don't know if I want to and other days I feel like we gotta

do it

> > > >before one

> > > > > of us croaks. How's that for stability?!

> > > > >

> > > > > So I do like you do...I go work on my garden, work on my

indoor

> > > >plants,

> > > > > write-a lot, sometimes. I do something that pleases me. I

think

> >I

> > > >know how

> > > > > you feel. I have a lot of the thoughts you wrote of and

> >sometimes I

> > > >wonder

> > > > > if I'm better off alone and not in a relationship. And

there are

> > > >the more

> > > > > lucid times, when I just accept " what is " , quit analyzing and

just

> > > >enjoy my

> > > > > life, which is better than it's ever been.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:58:52 -0400

> > > > > >

> > > > > >, I agree, I've seen and heard of men taken to the

> >cleaners

> > > >by

> > > > > >divorce. And there have been many women left with kids to

raise

> >by

> > > > > >themselves and having to spend their spare time tracking

down the

> > > >dead beat

> > > > > >dads for much needed child support. It's a shitty world we

> >live in

> > > > > >sometimes, ain't it. I've usually just tried to go on with

my

> >life

> > > >and

> > > > > >walk

> > > > > >away from the creeps in my life, but this time I've had

enough.

> >On

> > > >the one

> > > > > >hand, I'm surprised (and a little relieved) that I'm not

looking

> >for

> > > >a

> > > > > >romantic replacement, but I must admit, there are days when

all

> >I

> > > >think is

> > > > > >no one will want me now. I'm 48, out of shape, I look in the

> >mirror

> > > >and go

> > > > > >ugh now, I've been married twice and had way too many

> >bittersweet

> > > > > >romances.

> > > > > >When I start thinking like that now I bury myself in a good

> >book, or

> > > >work

> > > > > >on

> > > > > >learning web site publication or taking care of things in my

> >dad's

> > > >house

> > > > > >that he's let go since my mother died. It helps me keep

sane,

> >but

> > > >there's

> > > > > >still a part of me that thinks she's got nothing worthwhile

to

> >offer

> > > > > >people.

> > > > > >I don't know if those self-defeating thoughts are a result

> >totally

> > > >of my

> > > > > >husband's criticisms, belittling, controlling, and making me

> >know of

> > > >how

> > > > > >many women were coming on to him, and raising his fist in my

> >face a

> > > >few

> > > > > >times because I did the unpardonable (once the soup was too

hot

> > > >another

> > > > > >time

> > > > > >all I did was ask, what the hell are you talking to me like

that

> > > >for). Why

> > > > > >his fist never eventually hit my face, I don't know. Maybe I

> >come

> > > >across

> > > > > >as

> > > > > >more ballsy than I think I am. All I know is he did a major

> >mental

> > > >number

> > > > > >on me that I've never experienced before. For the first

time in

> >my

> > > >life

> > > > > >I'm

> > > > > >in a right back atcha prick mood. I've also been told from

other

> > > >women

> > > > > >that

> > > > > >I need to stay angry at him for now, because it could be real

> >easy

> > > >to

> > > > > >forget

> > > > > >the ugliness that consumed most of our marriage, and only

> >remember

> > > >the

> > > > > >sweet

> > > > > >times that were only short spells. If I allow myself to be

> > > >heartbroken

> > > > > >most

> > > > > >of the time, it will only destroy me further.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Also, typing this stuff to this list has been therapeutic

for me.

> > > >I'm

> > > > > >getting alot out of my system in a 'safe' place so as not to

> > > >interfere with

> > > > > >work and other responsibilities. Bear with me gang and

thank you

> > > >all for

> > > > > >letting me vent.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Jan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Jan,

> > > > > > >Your right.

> > > > > > >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

lbs. I

> > > >long ago

> > > > > > >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

etc.

> >yet

> > > >when

> > > > > > >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave

her a

> >car,

> > > >paid

> > > > > > >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money to

> >finish

> > > >school

> > > > > > >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

do,

> >we

> > > >got a

> > > > > > >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

couple

> >of

> > > >hearts

> > > > > > >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be

moving on

> > > >without

> > > > > > >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > > > > >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------

----

> >----

> > > >------

> > > > > > >GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE

Rewards

> > > >points,

> > > > > > >NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply

online

> >today!

> > > > > > >http://clickhere./click/606

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > > > > > > - Simplifying group communications

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh:

We are both secure on both counts.

And considering my past, I'm amazed about both of those things!

As I said, the committment has always been there-from the very start.

We saw things in each other very early on in the relationship that made

us very comfortable with one another. One of those things was

trust-implicit trust.

Charlie's benefits are better than mine, and he has told me that he

wanted to take care of me in all ways, and that was why he wanted to

marry me. I don't have any serious medical problems, but I am certain

he would do the very same thing the couple you knew did. I can count

on him.

<7oaps5$j67-egroups> wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6978

> If you are both financially secure, and secure in the relationship,

> perhaps there is no reason to get married.

>

> I knew a couple that was engaged for 18 years and didn't marry until

> she began to have some major medical problems. She was a free-lance

> writer, and didn't have health insurance, of course, so they married

so

> she could get treatment.

>

> wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6939

> > Hi Kayleigh;

> >

> > You are right. The Kennedy thing was just an excuse to feel bad, I

> think.

> > I know we'll get married eventually, but sometimes I get anxious.

> I'm

> > compulsive and sometimes it gets the best of me. I need to let

> Charlie

> > grieve his son in his own time. Neither one of us is hot on

> therapists or

> > counselors, my 20 or so experiences with psychologists,

> psychiatrists, etc.

> >

> > Charlie feels he knows how to grieve-he lost his father 6 years ago

> this

> > past July. The conflict is within me. I am very fortunate to have

a

> person

> > like Charlie in my life to begin with, looking back over my personal

> history

> > with abusive men. He is highly intelligent academically (2 masters

> degrees,

> > poli sci and eng.) and it extends into how he deals with people. I

> have

> > watched him deal with people I know he absolutely abhors and he can

> be

> > outgoing and pleasant; as though they are his best friend. It just

> floors

> > me to watch. If I don't care for a person, they know it; it shows

> all over

> > my face. He has a lot of control with his emotions. That's

> something I

> > don't have right now.

> >

> > We've been together for nearly three years. Even though there have

> been

> > some tremendous upheavals and traumas, the relationship has only

> become more

> > cemented. I go off on tangents because I disassociate under stress,

> and the

> > anger can simply carry me away. Charlie knows that and deals very

> well with

> > it. I am in the best relationship I have ever been in in my life.

I

> will

> > not give up on this. He treats me very well. I need to remember

> that this

> > is the way he has always treated me and that this will continue. We

> have

> > considered ourselves married from the beginning-we've made

> subconscious

> > slips about it. The committment is there. It's just a delay.

> >

> > Thanks for your help. If anybody does the therapy thing, it'll be

> me. Only

> > if I REALLY can't find any other way.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> >

> >

> > >From: kayleighs@...

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:13:46 -0700

> > >

> > >I just read the Rory Kennedy thing today, and made my mind I

wouldn't

> > >bring it up, but there you went and did it.

> > >

> > >Her situation's different, isn't it? She never knew her dad, she

> never

> > >knew JFK, and until Jackie O. died, she didn't even know JFK, Jr.

> > >

> > >I guess you and Charlie are in a sort of no-win situation at this

> > >point. I hope you can resolve it. Have you found a grief

counselor

> > >who can do you some good?

> > >

> > > wrote:

> > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=

68

> 60

> > > > Kayleigh:

> > > >

> > > > I think it's both of us right now. Nick was Charlie's favorite

> son.

> > >It

> > > > happens. A child gets favored. It's been almost four months

now

> and

> > >he is

> > > > still grieving.

> > > >

> > > > But I think it's also the way I'm taking things. I feel jilted,

> > >worthless

> > > > and very up-and-down.

> > > >

> > > > He tells me we will get married when it can be a joyous

occasion,

> but

> > >the

> > > > more time that goes by, the less hope I have. He wants me to

feel

> > >better

> > > > about myself before we get married, but I tell him the way I

will

> > >feel

> > > > better is to go ahead and get married.

> > > >

> > > > I just wanted to cry when I saw that Rory Kennedy got married

> already.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >From: kayleighs@...

> > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 20:32:25 -0700

> > > > >

> > > > >Just tell me to get lost if I'm prying, but what prevents you

> from

> > > > >getting married now? I can understand that you couldn't after

> the

> > > > >tremendous loss both of you suffered, but does something still

> stand

> > >in

> > > > >the way of it?

> > > > >

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?st

ar

> t=67

> > >95

> > > > > > , Jan;

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know you've probably read my lamentations regarding some

of

> the

> > > > > > particulars of my last divorce. It was my second. I was

not

> out

> > >to

> > > > > " get "

> > > > > > my ex. I wanted to be treated fairly. It was obvious to me

> that

> > >I

> > > > >had to

> > > > > > get out of an abusive situation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was pretty messy, he was a real a**hole throughout the

> whole

> > > > >proceeding;

> > > > > > lied, had his friends lie, was manipulative and verbally

> abusive

> > > > >after I

> > > > > > moved out...I'm glad it's over. Funny, for him, it was all

> about

> > > > >getting

> > > > > > the most of everything-which he did. In fact, one thing I

> really

> > > > >hate him

> > > > > > for is the fact that after the divorce was final, instead of

> going

> > > > >through

> > > > > > the house we were selling and offering to allow me to take

> out my

> > > > >high

> > > > > > school yearbooks, pictures and personal momentoes from my

> > >childhood,

> > > > >he

> > > > > > threw EVERYTHING away.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > After the smoke cleared two years later and the papers were

> > >signed, I

> > > > >guess

> > > > > > things have worked out pretty good.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ex and his wife live in FLA. She works for an airline,

> so my

> > > > >daughter

> > > > > > flies for free and can visit me anytime. It was her

decision

> to

> > >go

> > > > >with her

> > > > > > father. We have joint custody and there is no child support

> and

> > > > >everything

> > > > > > concerning future litigation concerning custody and support

is

> > > > >already

> > > > > > covered in the JOD. Still, my skin crawls when I have to be

> > >around

> > > > > > him...wish I had felt that BEFORE I got involved with him in

> the

> > > > >first

> > > > > > place...live and learn...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My first husband left me with three kids to raise. I

wouldn't

> > > > >recognize him

> > > > > > on the street, it's been so long. I know my kids are hurt by

> the

> > > > > > abandonment, but they know I've been there for them and will

> > >always

> > > > >be

> > > > > > there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jan, I'm only a few years younger than you and feel like I'm

> > >looking

> > > > >at my

> > > > > > mother in the mirror.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Both of these guys were abusive and I got real good at

makeup

> > > > >application

> > > > > > after a bad night. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't bring the

> > >abuse on

> > > > >to

> > > > > > myself and if I verbalize that around my fiance, he tells me

> I'm

> > >full

> > > > >of it.

> > > > > > NOBODY deserves it. #1 left me financially and emotionally

> > > > >destitute, and

> > > > > > #2 left me almost that and a lot more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So some days I could care less if Charlie and I ever get

> married

> > >or I

> > > > >just

> > > > > > don't know if I want to and other days I feel like we gotta

> do it

> > > > >before one

> > > > > > of us croaks. How's that for stability?!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So I do like you do...I go work on my garden, work on my

> indoor

> > > > >plants,

> > > > > > write-a lot, sometimes. I do something that pleases me. I

> think

> > >I

> > > > >know how

> > > > > > you feel. I have a lot of the thoughts you wrote of and

> > >sometimes I

> > > > >wonder

> > > > > > if I'm better off alone and not in a relationship. And

> there are

> > > > >the more

> > > > > > lucid times, when I just accept " what is " , quit analyzing

and

> just

> > > > >enjoy my

> > > > > > life, which is better than it's ever been.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > > > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:58:52 -0400

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >, I agree, I've seen and heard of men taken to the

> > >cleaners

> > > > >by

> > > > > > >divorce. And there have been many women left with kids to

> raise

> > >by

> > > > > > >themselves and having to spend their spare time tracking

> down the

> > > > >dead beat

> > > > > > >dads for much needed child support. It's a shitty world

we

> > >live in

> > > > > > >sometimes, ain't it. I've usually just tried to go on with

> my

> > >life

> > > > >and

> > > > > > >walk

> > > > > > >away from the creeps in my life, but this time I've had

> enough.

> > >On

> > > > >the one

> > > > > > >hand, I'm surprised (and a little relieved) that I'm not

> looking

> > >for

> > > > >a

> > > > > > >romantic replacement, but I must admit, there are days

when

> all

> > >I

> > > > >think is

> > > > > > >no one will want me now. I'm 48, out of shape, I look in

the

> > >mirror

> > > > >and go

> > > > > > >ugh now, I've been married twice and had way too many

> > >bittersweet

> > > > > > >romances.

> > > > > > >When I start thinking like that now I bury myself in a good

> > >book, or

> > > > >work

> > > > > > >on

> > > > > > >learning web site publication or taking care of things in

my

> > >dad's

> > > > >house

> > > > > > >that he's let go since my mother died. It helps me keep

> sane,

> > >but

> > > > >there's

> > > > > > >still a part of me that thinks she's got nothing worthwhile

> to

> > >offer

> > > > > > >people.

> > > > > > >I don't know if those self-defeating thoughts are a result

> > >totally

> > > > >of my

> > > > > > >husband's criticisms, belittling, controlling, and making

me

> > >know of

> > > > >how

> > > > > > >many women were coming on to him, and raising his fist in

my

> > >face a

> > > > >few

> > > > > > >times because I did the unpardonable (once the soup was too

> hot

> > > > >another

> > > > > > >time

> > > > > > >all I did was ask, what the hell are you talking to me like

> that

> > > > >for). Why

> > > > > > >his fist never eventually hit my face, I don't know.

Maybe I

> > >come

> > > > >across

> > > > > > >as

> > > > > > >more ballsy than I think I am. All I know is he did a

major

> > >mental

> > > > >number

> > > > > > >on me that I've never experienced before. For the first

> time in

> > >my

> > > > >life

> > > > > > >I'm

> > > > > > >in a right back atcha prick mood. I've also been told from

> other

> > > > >women

> > > > > > >that

> > > > > > >I need to stay angry at him for now, because it could be

real

> > >easy

> > > > >to

> > > > > > >forget

> > > > > > >the ugliness that consumed most of our marriage, and only

> > >remember

> > > > >the

> > > > > > >sweet

> > > > > > >times that were only short spells. If I allow myself to be

> > > > >heartbroken

> > > > > > >most

> > > > > > >of the time, it will only destroy me further.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Also, typing this stuff to this list has been therapeutic

> for me.

> > > > >I'm

> > > > > > >getting alot out of my system in a 'safe' place so as not

to

> > > > >interfere with

> > > > > > >work and other responsibilities. Bear with me gang and

> thank you

> > > > >all for

> > > > > > >letting me vent.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Hi Jan,

> > > > > > > >Your right.

> > > > > > > >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

> lbs. I

> > > > >long ago

> > > > > > > >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

> etc.

> > >yet

> > > > >when

> > > > > > > >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave

> her a

> > >car,

> > > > >paid

> > > > > > > >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money

to

> > >finish

> > > > >school

> > > > > > > >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

> do,

> > >we

> > > > >got a

> > > > > > > >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

> couple

> > >of

> > > > >hearts

> > > > > > > >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be

> moving on

> > > > >without

> > > > > > > >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > > > > > >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Kayleigh:

We are both secure on both counts.

And considering my past, I'm amazed about both of those things!

As I said, the committment has always been there-from the very start.

We saw things in each other very early on in the relationship that made

us very comfortable with one another. One of those things was

trust-implicit trust.

Charlie's benefits are better than mine, and he has told me that he

wanted to take care of me in all ways, and that was why he wanted to

marry me. I don't have any serious medical problems, but I am certain

he would do the very same thing the couple you knew did. I can count

on him.

<7oaps5$j67-egroups> wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6978

> If you are both financially secure, and secure in the relationship,

> perhaps there is no reason to get married.

>

> I knew a couple that was engaged for 18 years and didn't marry until

> she began to have some major medical problems. She was a free-lance

> writer, and didn't have health insurance, of course, so they married

so

> she could get treatment.

>

> wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=6939

> > Hi Kayleigh;

> >

> > You are right. The Kennedy thing was just an excuse to feel bad, I

> think.

> > I know we'll get married eventually, but sometimes I get anxious.

> I'm

> > compulsive and sometimes it gets the best of me. I need to let

> Charlie

> > grieve his son in his own time. Neither one of us is hot on

> therapists or

> > counselors, my 20 or so experiences with psychologists,

> psychiatrists, etc.

> >

> > Charlie feels he knows how to grieve-he lost his father 6 years ago

> this

> > past July. The conflict is within me. I am very fortunate to have

a

> person

> > like Charlie in my life to begin with, looking back over my personal

> history

> > with abusive men. He is highly intelligent academically (2 masters

> degrees,

> > poli sci and eng.) and it extends into how he deals with people. I

> have

> > watched him deal with people I know he absolutely abhors and he can

> be

> > outgoing and pleasant; as though they are his best friend. It just

> floors

> > me to watch. If I don't care for a person, they know it; it shows

> all over

> > my face. He has a lot of control with his emotions. That's

> something I

> > don't have right now.

> >

> > We've been together for nearly three years. Even though there have

> been

> > some tremendous upheavals and traumas, the relationship has only

> become more

> > cemented. I go off on tangents because I disassociate under stress,

> and the

> > anger can simply carry me away. Charlie knows that and deals very

> well with

> > it. I am in the best relationship I have ever been in in my life.

I

> will

> > not give up on this. He treats me very well. I need to remember

> that this

> > is the way he has always treated me and that this will continue. We

> have

> > considered ourselves married from the beginning-we've made

> subconscious

> > slips about it. The committment is there. It's just a delay.

> >

> > Thanks for your help. If anybody does the therapy thing, it'll be

> me. Only

> > if I REALLY can't find any other way.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> >

> >

> > >From: kayleighs@...

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:13:46 -0700

> > >

> > >I just read the Rory Kennedy thing today, and made my mind I

wouldn't

> > >bring it up, but there you went and did it.

> > >

> > >Her situation's different, isn't it? She never knew her dad, she

> never

> > >knew JFK, and until Jackie O. died, she didn't even know JFK, Jr.

> > >

> > >I guess you and Charlie are in a sort of no-win situation at this

> > >point. I hope you can resolve it. Have you found a grief

counselor

> > >who can do you some good?

> > >

> > > wrote:

> > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=

68

> 60

> > > > Kayleigh:

> > > >

> > > > I think it's both of us right now. Nick was Charlie's favorite

> son.

> > >It

> > > > happens. A child gets favored. It's been almost four months

now

> and

> > >he is

> > > > still grieving.

> > > >

> > > > But I think it's also the way I'm taking things. I feel jilted,

> > >worthless

> > > > and very up-and-down.

> > > >

> > > > He tells me we will get married when it can be a joyous

occasion,

> but

> > >the

> > > > more time that goes by, the less hope I have. He wants me to

feel

> > >better

> > > > about myself before we get married, but I tell him the way I

will

> > >feel

> > > > better is to go ahead and get married.

> > > >

> > > > I just wanted to cry when I saw that Rory Kennedy got married

> already.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >From: kayleighs@...

> > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 20:32:25 -0700

> > > > >

> > > > >Just tell me to get lost if I'm prying, but what prevents you

> from

> > > > >getting married now? I can understand that you couldn't after

> the

> > > > >tremendous loss both of you suffered, but does something still

> stand

> > >in

> > > > >the way of it?

> > > > >

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > >original article:/group/12-step-free/?st

ar

> t=67

> > >95

> > > > > > , Jan;

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know you've probably read my lamentations regarding some

of

> the

> > > > > > particulars of my last divorce. It was my second. I was

not

> out

> > >to

> > > > > " get "

> > > > > > my ex. I wanted to be treated fairly. It was obvious to me

> that

> > >I

> > > > >had to

> > > > > > get out of an abusive situation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was pretty messy, he was a real a**hole throughout the

> whole

> > > > >proceeding;

> > > > > > lied, had his friends lie, was manipulative and verbally

> abusive

> > > > >after I

> > > > > > moved out...I'm glad it's over. Funny, for him, it was all

> about

> > > > >getting

> > > > > > the most of everything-which he did. In fact, one thing I

> really

> > > > >hate him

> > > > > > for is the fact that after the divorce was final, instead of

> going

> > > > >through

> > > > > > the house we were selling and offering to allow me to take

> out my

> > > > >high

> > > > > > school yearbooks, pictures and personal momentoes from my

> > >childhood,

> > > > >he

> > > > > > threw EVERYTHING away.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > After the smoke cleared two years later and the papers were

> > >signed, I

> > > > >guess

> > > > > > things have worked out pretty good.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ex and his wife live in FLA. She works for an airline,

> so my

> > > > >daughter

> > > > > > flies for free and can visit me anytime. It was her

decision

> to

> > >go

> > > > >with her

> > > > > > father. We have joint custody and there is no child support

> and

> > > > >everything

> > > > > > concerning future litigation concerning custody and support

is

> > > > >already

> > > > > > covered in the JOD. Still, my skin crawls when I have to be

> > >around

> > > > > > him...wish I had felt that BEFORE I got involved with him in

> the

> > > > >first

> > > > > > place...live and learn...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My first husband left me with three kids to raise. I

wouldn't

> > > > >recognize him

> > > > > > on the street, it's been so long. I know my kids are hurt by

> the

> > > > > > abandonment, but they know I've been there for them and will

> > >always

> > > > >be

> > > > > > there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jan, I'm only a few years younger than you and feel like I'm

> > >looking

> > > > >at my

> > > > > > mother in the mirror.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Both of these guys were abusive and I got real good at

makeup

> > > > >application

> > > > > > after a bad night. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't bring the

> > >abuse on

> > > > >to

> > > > > > myself and if I verbalize that around my fiance, he tells me

> I'm

> > >full

> > > > >of it.

> > > > > > NOBODY deserves it. #1 left me financially and emotionally

> > > > >destitute, and

> > > > > > #2 left me almost that and a lot more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So some days I could care less if Charlie and I ever get

> married

> > >or I

> > > > >just

> > > > > > don't know if I want to and other days I feel like we gotta

> do it

> > > > >before one

> > > > > > of us croaks. How's that for stability?!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So I do like you do...I go work on my garden, work on my

> indoor

> > > > >plants,

> > > > > > write-a lot, sometimes. I do something that pleases me. I

> think

> > >I

> > > > >know how

> > > > > > you feel. I have a lot of the thoughts you wrote of and

> > >sometimes I

> > > > >wonder

> > > > > > if I'm better off alone and not in a relationship. And

> there are

> > > > >the more

> > > > > > lucid times, when I just accept " what is " , quit analyzing

and

> just

> > > > >enjoy my

> > > > > > life, which is better than it's ever been.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > > > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > > > > > >Subject: Re: hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:58:52 -0400

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >, I agree, I've seen and heard of men taken to the

> > >cleaners

> > > > >by

> > > > > > >divorce. And there have been many women left with kids to

> raise

> > >by

> > > > > > >themselves and having to spend their spare time tracking

> down the

> > > > >dead beat

> > > > > > >dads for much needed child support. It's a shitty world

we

> > >live in

> > > > > > >sometimes, ain't it. I've usually just tried to go on with

> my

> > >life

> > > > >and

> > > > > > >walk

> > > > > > >away from the creeps in my life, but this time I've had

> enough.

> > >On

> > > > >the one

> > > > > > >hand, I'm surprised (and a little relieved) that I'm not

> looking

> > >for

> > > > >a

> > > > > > >romantic replacement, but I must admit, there are days

when

> all

> > >I

> > > > >think is

> > > > > > >no one will want me now. I'm 48, out of shape, I look in

the

> > >mirror

> > > > >and go

> > > > > > >ugh now, I've been married twice and had way too many

> > >bittersweet

> > > > > > >romances.

> > > > > > >When I start thinking like that now I bury myself in a good

> > >book, or

> > > > >work

> > > > > > >on

> > > > > > >learning web site publication or taking care of things in

my

> > >dad's

> > > > >house

> > > > > > >that he's let go since my mother died. It helps me keep

> sane,

> > >but

> > > > >there's

> > > > > > >still a part of me that thinks she's got nothing worthwhile

> to

> > >offer

> > > > > > >people.

> > > > > > >I don't know if those self-defeating thoughts are a result

> > >totally

> > > > >of my

> > > > > > >husband's criticisms, belittling, controlling, and making

me

> > >know of

> > > > >how

> > > > > > >many women were coming on to him, and raising his fist in

my

> > >face a

> > > > >few

> > > > > > >times because I did the unpardonable (once the soup was too

> hot

> > > > >another

> > > > > > >time

> > > > > > >all I did was ask, what the hell are you talking to me like

> that

> > > > >for). Why

> > > > > > >his fist never eventually hit my face, I don't know.

Maybe I

> > >come

> > > > >across

> > > > > > >as

> > > > > > >more ballsy than I think I am. All I know is he did a

major

> > >mental

> > > > >number

> > > > > > >on me that I've never experienced before. For the first

> time in

> > >my

> > > > >life

> > > > > > >I'm

> > > > > > >in a right back atcha prick mood. I've also been told from

> other

> > > > >women

> > > > > > >that

> > > > > > >I need to stay angry at him for now, because it could be

real

> > >easy

> > > > >to

> > > > > > >forget

> > > > > > >the ugliness that consumed most of our marriage, and only

> > >remember

> > > > >the

> > > > > > >sweet

> > > > > > >times that were only short spells. If I allow myself to be

> > > > >heartbroken

> > > > > > >most

> > > > > > >of the time, it will only destroy me further.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Also, typing this stuff to this list has been therapeutic

> for me.

> > > > >I'm

> > > > > > >getting alot out of my system in a 'safe' place so as not

to

> > > > >interfere with

> > > > > > >work and other responsibilities. Bear with me gang and

> thank you

> > > > >all for

> > > > > > >letting me vent.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > hell's bells after the altar

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Hi Jan,

> > > > > > > >Your right.

> > > > > > > >I am a little over six feet and a bit plus some over 200

> lbs. I

> > > > >long ago

> > > > > > > >used to be a bodyguard, martail arts instructor blah blah

> etc.

> > >yet

> > > > >when

> > > > > > > >it came to my last divorce I assumed all the debt, gave

> her a

> > >car,

> > > > >paid

> > > > > > > >for her new apartment for six months and gave her money

to

> > >finish

> > > > >school

> > > > > > > >and get her degree. I figured it was the decent thing to

> do,

> > >we

> > > > >got a

> > > > > > > >mediator for the paperwork and no blood was lost just a

> couple

> > >of

> > > > >hearts

> > > > > > > >broken. In the end it was clear though that " I'll be

> moving on

> > > > >without

> > > > > > > >you " was the best for both of us.

> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> > > > > > > >Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Jan

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone,

This message has generated some good discussion but every time it gets

replied to it seems the whole thread gets posted with it. If those

replying would be so kind as to snip off the long tail of reply that

would be appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone,

This message has generated some good discussion but every time it gets

replied to it seems the whole thread gets posted with it. If those

replying would be so kind as to snip off the long tail of reply that

would be appreciated.