Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Dr. Bledsoe has a good point...unfortunately, we operate in a capitalistic society and not a socialistic one. The market sets the prices in America...and the market declares that data entry clerks are inputing information that someone needs and is willing to pay someone $12 an hour to do...the market also says that paramedics are providing a service that someone is only willing to pay $8 an hour for (in that location)... Forcing them out of balance in either direction can have untoward results in both the short and long term... Thanks, and this economics lesson brought to you by Adam ...the guy who first charted this all out. Dudley P.S. Again, I must state...the way to get better pay is to work to change the forces of demand NOT supply...we are all focused on the supply side now (paramedic shortage, low pay) but we MUST focus on the demand side and how to increase that (i.e. how to make us MORE valuable to society therefore driving up what the market is willing to pay)....after all, that will have the longest effects on our market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 Amen I am usually against taxation of any kind but believe that taxes for emergency services is necessary. Ed Walsh LP Salaries > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! > > Bledsoe, DO > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 No way will that ever happen. Doc, medics are just not important untill we are needed and soon as we are not well .... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 I for one sure like how Dr. Bledsoe thinks. Eddie Salaries > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! > > Bledsoe, DO > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2001 Report Share Posted May 31, 2001 AMEN..... " Eddie on, EMT-P " wrote: > I for one sure like how Dr. Bledsoe thinks. > > Eddie > Salaries > > > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has > only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she > went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour > doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this > list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per > hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to > stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! > > > > Bledsoe, DO > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Now that is off his soapbox, let me climb back up for a minute: We will never get paid " what we are worth " in our eyes if all we ever do is tell people we need more money. We MUST PROVE that we need it through research, public information sharing, and, as so elequantly put it, getting elected officials to see this and adopt it as a serious issue. We as an industry must STOP the constant " we hafta get paid more cause were important " routine because VERY shortly, if it hasn't already, somebody is going to ask... " really, why are you important? " And the fear-mongering and panic starting that we have relied upon for years is no longer going to work. The day is coming oh so quickly where we can no longer threaten our citizens by saying " if you don't give us more money...people will DDDDDDIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE " . We have to show them that they need to give us more money because they get more value by doing so. Plain and simple. BTW, volunteers in EMS and FD are not the reason why we do not get paid more. They are also a viable alternative in many communities and we need to get on board and realize that...but just because they are a good alternative in a community doesn't mean we don't have to support them financially through better training and superior equipment to. As a matter of fact, I believe it will be easier to prove in the rural volunteer settings than it is in the urban paid settings...but that is a whole other topic. Removing myself from the soapbox now....NEXT! Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Gene, You make some great points...however...the value of a life and the value of an apple are not two different things....to the consumer. You are correct that " <And we all know that's not the case any more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks working for the safety and health of others. > " The problem comes in that WE all know that because of our experience and field work...Joe Citizen does not know that and, except in a few communities that have worked to change it, doesn't care unless he is calling 911. Its not education. It frightens me that the only way we can see to increase our position is to " scare " the very people we are here to protect and serve. Seems counter-productive to me. Enough of this...today is my anniversary. I will check back in over the weekend. Enjoy. Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 no kidding, where is this at? Ron ( I know there are two Ron's on here, that's why I always my last name.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 , In the early 80's I was dating a women who worked for Krogers. She made $11.70 an hour scanning groceries. I was a field Paramedic for Mid Cities Amb and made $5.00 per hour. I do not understand what our society reasoning for this thinking. Checking in the grocery store appears to command a higher salary than the person who comes to your house and may save you life! Wow are we screwed up or what. When I left the field 5 years ago, I took a job that paid $7000.00 more a year so I could not afford to work in EMS full time. I work part-time now and only make $10.00 per hour. The only reason I work EMS now is to keep up my skills. Bernie Stafford EMTP >>> bbledsoe@... 5/31/01 8:45:19 PM >>> My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! Bledsoe, DO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 As a person posted earlier in this thread. This is a market economy. People do not want to pay for medicine but they do not mind paying for groceries. So as long as our congressmen (at the request of their constituents) continue to reduce funding for medicine, we will continue to be paid peanuts! The truly ironic thing is that we are some of those constituents and we are hurting ourselves by not being active in the process. For example, if you were a vocal supporter of the balanced budget act, then you have helped create a very bad situation for medicine. If you want more pay, go to your congressmen (local and federal) and get them to improve government spending on medicine. Then you will have a leg to stand on when fighting with companies for pay. If you think it is bad now, just wait, it is going to get much worse before it gets better. Steve Dralle Re: Salaries , In the early 80's I was dating a women who worked for Krogers. She made $11.70 an hour scanning groceries. I was a field Paramedic for Mid Cities Amb and made $5.00 per hour. I do not understand what our society reasoning for this thinking. Checking in the grocery store appears to command a higher salary than the person who comes to your house and may save you life! Wow are we screwed up or what. When I left the field 5 years ago, I took a job that paid $7000.00 more a year so I could not afford to work in EMS full time. I work part-time now and only make $10.00 per hour. The only reason I work EMS now is to keep up my skills. Bernie Stafford EMTP >>> bbledsoe@... 5/31/01 8:45:19 PM >>> My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! Bledsoe, DO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 <Pardon me while I climb onto my soapbox> In many, many communities EMS is not considered a required public service. There is no mandate in Texas law at any level of government to insure that EMS is provided. People are very willing to let volunteer services provide for their EMS (and in many cases Fire) services. When was the last time you encountered a volunteer nurse or physician staffing a hospital on a 24/7 basis. I don't think many counties, no matter how rural, depend upon volunteer deputies any more. The change has to come from within. We have to work to convince our city council members, mayors, county commissioners and state elected officials that Texans feel strongly that every Texan deserves access to timely EMS services. We need to help them define timely, and we need to build public consensus that paying for this service is an appropriate and necessary use of taxpayer funding. Whether this service is provided by career, volunteer, or a mixed group of EMS professionals doesn't matter. We, EMS providers, lobbying state elected officials will not get this done. But EMS providers, partnered with local elected officials, citizens groups, etc... can certainly get this done. We are very fortunate here in Austin- County that we have a group of elected officials that believe in EMS as a critical service, that support EMS provision extensively with excellent funding, and have publicly stated, time and again, that they feel our EMS providers should be the best paid in the state, if not the nation. How did we achieve this? Years and years of work, providing information, building consensus, and, most importantly, providing a quality, responsive, and accountable service. So begin your process locally...meet with each local elected official at least once a year and tell them about EMS, both what is working and what you need help with. Share successes with the elected officials and give them credit if they helped you achieve your goals of providing service. Perhaps most importantly, find a champion in the ranks of local elected officials, someone who cares about EMS issues and is willing to fight for EMS funding, then support them. <Climbing off my soapbox> Sorry to go one so long, but this issue is critically important to all of us. EMS is a critical service for our citizens, it is their safety net. We just need to remind them of that and make sure they let their leaders know they feel EMS is important. Chris _____ Christian E. Callsen, Jr., LP Senior District Commander, Strategic Planning Terrorism Duty Officer Austin- County EMS Office Pager Fax chris.callsen@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 , As a EMS Director, I have each budget year for the last (3) years attempted to move our employees to at least $33,000 a year. Each year I have been told that the issue needs to be addressed. However it never gets addressed. I am not the only person that experiences this problem. Your preaching to dead air when you say something has to be done. If and when you find the answer, please let me know. I have done everything short of getting run off over this issue. Even been ---am--- close on that one. Henry E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP wrote: > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She > has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). > Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ > 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic > as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being > paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values > all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to > society! > > Bledsoe, DO > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Another point of view --- Just as " Medicine " is typically a user needed commodity, the government does not pay my medical bills (if I'm a working citizen of the US and the State of Texas). Therefore I don't think it is the Government's responsibility to provide emergency medical services at the cost of the tax payer. What we should consider is getting the government to underwrite the EMS service's. Maybe even set up the systems as independant " non profit " Organizations and make the " user " pay their way. The American Tax payer certainly doesn't mind supporting services that benefit each citizen. The problem is, the taxpayer is being asked to bear the burden of those many, many, many, folks that just refuse to pay their bills. BUT THEY RAISE THE MOST CAIN IF THEY AREN'T HAPPY WITH THE SERVICE THEY GET. GO FIGURE!!! Rural Texas doesn't have the great, fully funded, fire departments to run the EMS services. And they are the ones that should. If we want the taxpayer to underwrite such a potentially expensive proposition, then they should get the most bang for their (poor wallets and purses) buck. Get fire protection and EMS services. .................... bang here we go!!!! > ---------- > From: > chris.callsen@...[sMTP:chris.callsen@...] > Reply To: > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:08 AM > To: > Subject: RE: Salaries > > <Pardon me while I climb onto my soapbox> > In many, many communities EMS is not considered a required public service. > There is no mandate in Texas law at any level of government to insure that > EMS is provided. People are very willing to let volunteer services provide > for their EMS (and in many cases Fire) services. When was the last time > you > encountered a volunteer nurse or physician staffing a hospital on a 24/7 > basis. I don't think many counties, no matter how rural, depend upon > volunteer deputies any more. The change has to come from within. > > We have to work to convince our city council members, mayors, county > commissioners and state elected officials that Texans feel strongly that > every Texan deserves access to timely EMS services. We need to help them > define timely, and we need to build public consensus that paying for this > service is an appropriate and necessary use of taxpayer funding. Whether > this service is provided by career, volunteer, or a mixed group of EMS > professionals doesn't matter. We, EMS providers, lobbying state elected > officials will not get this done. But EMS providers, partnered with local > elected officials, citizens groups, etc... can certainly get this done. > > We are very fortunate here in Austin- County that we have a group of > elected officials that believe in EMS as a critical service, that support > EMS provision extensively with excellent funding, and have publicly > stated, > time and again, that they feel our EMS providers should be the best paid > in > the state, if not the nation. How did we achieve this? Years and years of > work, providing information, building consensus, and, most importantly, > providing a quality, responsive, and accountable service. So begin your > process locally...meet with each local elected official at least once a > year > and tell them about EMS, both what is working and what you need help with. > Share successes with the elected officials and give them credit if they > helped you achieve your goals of providing service. Perhaps most > importantly, find a champion in the ranks of local elected officials, > someone who cares about EMS issues and is willing to fight for EMS > funding, > then support them. > <Climbing off my soapbox> > > Sorry to go one so long, but this issue is critically important to all of > us. EMS is a critical service for our citizens, it is their safety net. We > just need to remind them of that and make sure they let their leaders know > they feel EMS is important. > > Chris > > _____ > > > Christian E. Callsen, Jr., LP > Senior District Commander, Strategic Planning > Terrorism Duty Officer > Austin- County EMS > Office > Pager > Fax > chris.callsen@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 I agree that the government should not pay for the services but the Usual and customary rate that Medicare pays is what sets the yardstick for other insurances. If Medicare paid more, the other insurance would as well. That is were the government can help. Steve Dralle RE: Salaries > > <Pardon me while I climb onto my soapbox> > In many, many communities EMS is not considered a required public service. > There is no mandate in Texas law at any level of government to insure that > EMS is provided. People are very willing to let volunteer services provide > for their EMS (and in many cases Fire) services. When was the last time > you > encountered a volunteer nurse or physician staffing a hospital on a 24/7 > basis. I don't think many counties, no matter how rural, depend upon > volunteer deputies any more. The change has to come from within. > > We have to work to convince our city council members, mayors, county > commissioners and state elected officials that Texans feel strongly that > every Texan deserves access to timely EMS services. We need to help them > define timely, and we need to build public consensus that paying for this > service is an appropriate and necessary use of taxpayer funding. Whether > this service is provided by career, volunteer, or a mixed group of EMS > professionals doesn't matter. We, EMS providers, lobbying state elected > officials will not get this done. But EMS providers, partnered with local > elected officials, citizens groups, etc... can certainly get this done. > > We are very fortunate here in Austin- County that we have a group of > elected officials that believe in EMS as a critical service, that support > EMS provision extensively with excellent funding, and have publicly > stated, > time and again, that they feel our EMS providers should be the best paid > in > the state, if not the nation. How did we achieve this? Years and years of > work, providing information, building consensus, and, most importantly, > providing a quality, responsive, and accountable service. So begin your > process locally...meet with each local elected official at least once a > year > and tell them about EMS, both what is working and what you need help with. > Share successes with the elected officials and give them credit if they > helped you achieve your goals of providing service. Perhaps most > importantly, find a champion in the ranks of local elected officials, > someone who cares about EMS issues and is willing to fight for EMS > funding, > then support them. > <Climbing off my soapbox> > > Sorry to go one so long, but this issue is critically important to all of > us. EMS is a critical service for our citizens, it is their safety net. We > just need to remind them of that and make sure they let their leaders know > they feel EMS is important. > > Chris > > _____ > > > Christian E. Callsen, Jr., LP > Senior District Commander, Strategic Planning > Terrorism Duty Officer > Austin- County EMS > Office > Pager > Fax > chris.callsen@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Dudley, You make a good point, that is, if you place the value of a life and the cost of an apple on an equal scale. They are not, its like comparing apples and babies,(sorry for the pun), there's no comparison here. EMS providers were, at one time, just a fill in role for funeral home staffers with no specialized equipment or abilities. And we all know that's not the case any more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks working for the safety and health of others. Our problem is as much an image/PR problem as it is dollars and cents. Lets take a second and remember all the clatter about how if medics were had to attend MORE schooling and received say a BA in EMTisum then we would be worth more to the medical community. I bet I read 1000 letters here on the server saying the same thing, and they are all wrong. Education does not address what the community is willing to pay, its a shame but the truth none the less. Oh and by the way just what does the community have to do with our pay structure? Its the providers, insurance companies, and good old Uncle Sam that hold the key to fair and just compensation for our services. How to make an EMS system that everyone can live with; Step 1 = Uncle Sam pay your bills. If I understand what I think I do, the biggest freeloader in the " Unpaid " bill pile is the good old USA. No one can operate any company when better than 50% of billing goes unpaid for an extended time. This isn't the government being responsible with our money its MISUSE of tax dollars and someone needs to visit the iron bar hotel for this fiasco! Lets put it in another perspective -bob screw co. provides Gates co. with 50% of the screws they can produce, Gates doesn't pay on time or even at all for these screws. Yet Gates company is making money hand over fist, mean while back at the screw factory -bob, feeling the tightening of the screws goes out of business, guess who gets screwed and who gets sued? Any of you law types out there want to comment? Step 2 = Insurance Companies...same story...same ending. Step 3 = Providers...(here's the kicker)pay has to be increased before profits are expanded. Your employees should not be looked at as temporary workers enroute to a " higher paying " future with another company. Step 4 = Scare the crap out of the general public! Tell them the truth, the majority of the seasoned medics are moving on to other types of jobs that pay better. You know, Data Entry Tech., Convenience Store Clerk, Truck Driver, ect... So the next time you dial 911 and the medic responding looks younger than your 22yo son/daughter.... (Hang on, I'm not slamming the youth of this noble endeavor, however with age comes experience, I've learned so much more on the street than in any of my repertory courses. You cant teach experience, it must be lived through. Everyone starts some where, I just don't think its appropriate for them to start by working on my loved one.) I keep remembering what my grandmother, god rest her sole, said one day after a trip to our local ER... " He was a nice young man, but too young to be a doctor " The guy was 40+...but do you get my point? Perception IS everything. Ok...recapping, Uncle Sam pay our bills, Insurance Companies pay our bills, Providers how about some loyalty to your employees, and Educate the General Public to the realities of EMS life. As my wife says " There's a lot to be said for job satisfaction " . I feel better...pockets still empty...but opinion spoken...hell I was going to go on a diet anyway! Stay safe, shinny side up, dirty side down on them AMBULANCES... Me >From: THEDUDMAN@... >Reply-To: >To: < > >Subject: Re: Salaries >Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:19:59 EDT > >Dr. Bledsoe has a good point...unfortunately, we operate in a capitalistic >society and not a socialistic one. > >The market sets the prices in America...and the market declares that data >entry clerks are inputing information that someone needs and is willing to >pay someone $12 an hour to do...the market also says that paramedics are >providing a service that someone is only willing to pay $8 an hour for (in >that location)... Forcing them out of balance in either direction can have >untoward results in both the short and long term... > >Thanks, and this economics lesson brought to you by Adam ...the guy >who first charted this all out. > >Dudley > >P.S. Again, I must state...the way to get better pay is to work to change >the forces of demand NOT supply...we are all focused on the supply side now >(paramedic shortage, low pay) but we MUST focus on the demand side and how >to increase that (i.e. how to make us MORE valuable to society therefore >driving up what the market is willing to pay)....after all, that will have >the longest effects on our market... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Had to add some levity..I get so tired of hearing " why we can't " and not " how we CAN change " . In all seriousness the voices of the many is the only thing that will overcome the rumblings of the Government, Insurance companies and big business Providers. Gene Bell > >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: Salaries >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:51:53 -0500 > >Dudley, >You make a good point, that is, if you place the value of a life and the >cost of an apple on an equal scale. They are not, its like comparing apples >and babies,(sorry for the pun), there's no comparison here. EMS providers >were, at one time, just a fill in role for funeral home staffers with no >specialized equipment or abilities. And we all know that's not the case any >more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks >working for the safety and health of others. Our problem is as much an >image/PR problem as it is dollars and cents. Lets take a second and >remember >all the clatter about how if medics were had to attend MORE schooling and >received say a BA in EMTisum then we would be worth more to the medical >community. I bet I read 1000 letters here on the server saying the same >thing, and they are all wrong. Education does not address what the >community >is willing to pay, its a shame but the truth none the less. Oh and by the >way just what does the community have to do with our pay structure? Its the >providers, insurance companies, and good old Uncle Sam that hold the key to >fair and just compensation for our services. > >How to make an EMS system that everyone can live with; >Step 1 = Uncle Sam pay your bills. If I understand what I think I do, the >biggest freeloader in the " Unpaid " bill pile is the good old USA. No one >can >operate any company when better than 50% of billing goes unpaid for an >extended time. This isn't the government being responsible with our money >its MISUSE of tax dollars and someone needs to visit the iron bar hotel for >this fiasco! Lets put it in another perspective -bob screw co. >provides > Gates co. with 50% of the screws they can produce, Gates doesn't pay >on time or even at all for these screws. Yet Gates company is making money >hand over fist, mean while back at the screw factory -bob, feeling the >tightening of the screws goes out of business, guess who gets screwed and >who gets sued? Any of you law types out there want to comment? > >Step 2 = Insurance Companies...same story...same ending. > >Step 3 = Providers...(here's the kicker)pay has to be increased before >profits are expanded. Your employees should not be looked at as temporary >workers enroute to a " higher paying " future with another company. > >Step 4 = Scare the crap out of the general public! Tell them the truth, the >majority of the seasoned medics are moving on to other types of jobs that >pay better. You know, Data Entry Tech., Convenience Store Clerk, Truck >Driver, ect... So the next time you dial 911 and the medic responding looks >younger than your 22yo son/daughter.... (Hang on, I'm not slamming the >youth >of this noble endeavor, however with age comes experience, I've learned so >much more on the street than in any of my repertory courses. You cant teach >experience, it must be lived through. Everyone starts some where, I just >don't think its appropriate for them to start by working on my loved one.) >I >keep remembering what my grandmother, god rest her sole, said one day after >a trip to our local ER... " He was a nice young man, but too young to be a >doctor " The guy was 40+...but do you get my point? Perception IS >everything. > >Ok...recapping, Uncle Sam pay our bills, Insurance Companies pay our bills, >Providers how about some loyalty to your employees, and Educate the General >Public to the realities of EMS life. > >As my wife says " There's a lot to be said for job satisfaction " . > >I feel better...pockets still empty...but opinion spoken...hell I was going >to go on a diet anyway! > >Stay safe, shinny side up, dirty side down on them AMBULANCES... > >Me > > > > > >From: THEDUDMAN@... > >Reply-To: > >To: < > > >Subject: Re: Salaries > >Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:19:59 EDT > > > >Dr. Bledsoe has a good point...unfortunately, we operate in a >capitalistic > >society and not a socialistic one. > > > >The market sets the prices in America...and the market declares that data > >entry clerks are inputing information that someone needs and is willing >to > >pay someone $12 an hour to do...the market also says that paramedics are > >providing a service that someone is only willing to pay $8 an hour for >(in > >that location)... Forcing them out of balance in either direction can >have > >untoward results in both the short and long term... > > > >Thanks, and this economics lesson brought to you by Adam ...the guy > >who first charted this all out. > > > >Dudley > > > >P.S. Again, I must state...the way to get better pay is to work to change > >the forces of demand NOT supply...we are all focused on the supply side >now > >(paramedic shortage, low pay) but we MUST focus on the demand side and >how > >to increase that (i.e. how to make us MORE valuable to society therefore > >driving up what the market is willing to pay)....after all, that will >have > >the longest effects on our market... > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Happy anniversary!.. Don't get me wrong..I don't mean to " Boo-scare " the public, what I am talking about is more along the lines of informing them of EMS reality. Gene >From: THEDUDMAN@... >Reply-To: >To: < > >Subject: Re: Salaries >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:21:39 EDT > >Gene, > >You make some great points...however...the value of a life and the value of >an apple are not two different things....to the consumer. > >You are correct that " <And we all know that's not the case any >more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks >working for the safety and health of others. > " The problem comes in that >WE all know that because of our experience and field work...Joe Citizen >does not know that and, except in a few communities that have worked to >change it, doesn't care unless he is calling 911. > >Its not education. > >It frightens me that the only way we can see to increase our position is to > " scare " the very people we are here to protect and serve. Seems >counter-productive to me. > >Enough of this...today is my anniversary. I will check back in over the >weekend. > >Enjoy. > >Dudley _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Just heard the paramedics in Edmonton, Alberta just went on strike. They were wanting a 21% pay raise over 3 years. The City was only willing to give them a 9 % pay raise over 4 years. This should be interesting to follow. Imagine what would happen if any Texas medics went on strike. Tune in RealAudio to www.ckua.com, for more information, as well as some really cool music. Mikey- ---------- > > To: > Subject: Re: Salaries > Date: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:11 AM > > Happy anniversary!.. > > Don't get me wrong..I don't mean to " Boo-scare " the public, what I am > talking about is more along the lines of informing them of EMS reality. > > Gene > > >From: THEDUDMAN@... > >Reply-To: > >To: < > > >Subject: Re: Salaries > >Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:21:39 EDT > > > >Gene, > > > >You make some great points...however...the value of a life and the value of > >an apple are not two different things....to the consumer. > > > >You are correct that " <And we all know that's not the case any > >more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks > >working for the safety and health of others. > " The problem comes in that > >WE all know that because of our experience and field work...Joe Citizen > >does not know that and, except in a few communities that have worked to > >change it, doesn't care unless he is calling 911. > > > >Its not education. > > > >It frightens me that the only way we can see to increase our position is to > > " scare " the very people we are here to protect and serve. Seems > >counter-productive to me. > > > >Enough of this...today is my anniversary. I will check back in over the > >weekend. > > > >Enjoy. > > > >Dudley > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Henry, Could you email me privately please. I have a question I would like to ask you. I can not get my email to accept your address by replying to your post. Thanks, Joby Berkley BARBER wrote: > , > > As a EMS Director, I have each budget year for the last (3) years > attempted to move our employees to at least $33,000 a year. Each year I > have been told that the issue needs to be addressed. However it never > gets addressed. I am not the only person that experiences this problem. > Your preaching to dead air when you say something has to be done. If and > when you find the answer, please let me know. I have done everything > short of getting run off over this issue. Even been ---am--- close on > that one. > > Henry > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP wrote: > > > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She > > has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). > > Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ > > 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic > > as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being > > paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values > > all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to > > society! > > > > Bledsoe, DO > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Bernie, You found a REAL girl that would go out with you???? Love ya, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 It is good to see we have changed subjects here I was beganing to tire of the RN stuff. As far as salries go maybe I am just an optimist but I think things have improved greatly over the past 10 years. Granted we have not yet arrived but if there is any conselation a few months ago I heard a couple of doctors talking about how they are being screwed with long hours and a little pay. I am constently hearing nurses complain about the lack of pay in their field. My point is we will never make everyone happy ok a cool million a year and 30 hour work weeks would probably do the trick. Seriously though I believe that EMS has made strides towards increasing the pay scale. This is not somthing that happens overnight. We somtimes get so narrow minded we have the group that is sure education is the answer and that is what they promote then we have those who think licensure is the answer and that is what they promote, Others believe Tax dollars is the answer and still other believe that being part of the fire service is the answer. In my opinion all of these play a roll with the exception for needing to be part of a fire service ( like the saying goes when the pt is on fire then being a firefighter will help in Pt care, This comment was made srictly to rile a few people). In my opinion the next priority is making EMS an " essential " service. The rest is left to Supply and demand. We already have a paramedic shortage so the supply is there the demand is next. As for informing the public I believe there is truth to this but most of the time when you make a call at someones home and treat and transport that portion of the public has just been informed of the need for EMS. As far as letting them know of our education requirements most of the public has no idea what kind of schooling it take ato be a medic or a nurse as a matter of fact most of the ones that I meet think that both are four year degrees. Any now that I have rambled on don't quit fighting for increased salaries but don't be to dishearted change is on the way it just may take some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2001 Report Share Posted June 1, 2001 Hold on there just a second.... I agree with about 99% of your posts BUT You cannot ignore education. You dont have to have a PhD, but you cannot dismiss the fact that if your dumb as a rock, your going to get what a rock is worth. Education means many things. Not that education is everything, but it sure doenst hurt. Education doeant mean just college or some school, it can also mean meaningful experience. Education alone will not fix all the probelms, but it does give us a basis to stand on LIKE IT OR NOT! My 0.2 From: THEDUDMAN@... Reply-To: To: < > Subject: Re: Salaries Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:21:39 EDT Gene, You make some great points...however...the value of a life and the value of an apple are not two different things....to the consumer. You are correct that " <And we all know that's not the case any more. EMS providers are for the most part highly skilled dedicated folks working for the safety and health of others. > " The problem comes in that WE all know that because of our experience and field work...Joe Citizen does not know that and, except in a few communities that have worked to change it, doesn't care unless he is calling 911. Its not education. It frightens me that the only way we can see to increase our position is to " scare " the very people we are here to protect and serve. Seems counter-productive to me. Enough of this...today is my anniversary. I will check back in over the weekend. Enjoy. Dudley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2001 Report Share Posted June 2, 2001 Good Input, thanks for arguing your point of views. That is what we need . Reply-To: To: " ' ' " < > Subject: RE: Salaries Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:44:21 -0500 Another point of view --- Just as " Medicine " is typically a user needed commodity, the government does not pay my medical bills (if I'm a working citizen of the US and the State of Texas). Therefore I don't think it is the Government's responsibility to provide emergency medical services at the cost of the tax payer. What we should consider is getting the government to underwrite the EMS service's. Maybe even set up the systems as independant " non profit " Organizations and make the " user " pay their way. The American Tax payer certainly doesn't mind supporting services that benefit each citizen. The problem is, the taxpayer is being asked to bear the burden of those many, many, many, folks that just refuse to pay their bills. BUT THEY RAISE THE MOST CAIN IF THEY AREN'T HAPPY WITH THE SERVICE THEY GET. GO FIGURE!!! Rural Texas doesn't have the great, fully funded, fire departments to run the EMS services. And they are the ones that should. If we want the taxpayer to underwrite such a potentially expensive proposition, then they should get the most bang for their (poor wallets and purses) buck. Get fire protection and EMS services. .................... bang here we go!!!! > ---------- > From: > chris.callsen@...[sMTP:chris.callsen@...] > Reply To: > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:08 AM > To: > Subject: RE: Salaries > > <Pardon me while I climb onto my soapbox> > In many, many communities EMS is not considered a required public service. > There is no mandate in Texas law at any level of government to insure that > EMS is provided. People are very willing to let volunteer services provide > for their EMS (and in many cases Fire) services. When was the last time > you > encountered a volunteer nurse or physician staffing a hospital on a 24/7 > basis. I don't think many counties, no matter how rural, depend upon > volunteer deputies any more. The change has to come from within. > > We have to work to convince our city council members, mayors, county > commissioners and state elected officials that Texans feel strongly that > every Texan deserves access to timely EMS services. We need to help them > define timely, and we need to build public consensus that paying for this > service is an appropriate and necessary use of taxpayer funding. Whether > this service is provided by career, volunteer, or a mixed group of EMS > professionals doesn't matter. We, EMS providers, lobbying state elected > officials will not get this done. But EMS providers, partnered with local > elected officials, citizens groups, etc... can certainly get this done. > > We are very fortunate here in Austin- County that we have a group of > elected officials that believe in EMS as a critical service, that support > EMS provision extensively with excellent funding, and have publicly > stated, > time and again, that they feel our EMS providers should be the best paid > in > the state, if not the nation. How did we achieve this? Years and years of > work, providing information, building consensus, and, most importantly, > providing a quality, responsive, and accountable service. So begin your > process locally...meet with each local elected official at least once a > year > and tell them about EMS, both what is working and what you need help with. > Share successes with the elected officials and give them credit if they > helped you achieve your goals of providing service. Perhaps most > importantly, find a champion in the ranks of local elected officials, > someone who cares about EMS issues and is willing to fight for EMS > funding, > then support them. > <Climbing off my soapbox> > > Sorry to go one so long, but this issue is critically important to all of > us. EMS is a critical service for our citizens, it is their safety net. We > just need to remind them of that and make sure they let their leaders know > they feel EMS is important. > > Chris > > _____ > > > Christian E. Callsen, Jr., LP > Senior District Commander, Strategic Planning > Terrorism Duty Officer > Austin- County EMS > Office > Pager > Fax > chris.callsen@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 You think socialism is the answer? Immigrate to Canada. Re: Salaries > Dr. Bledsoe has a good point...unfortunately, we operate in a capitalistic society and not a socialistic one. > > The market sets the prices in America...and the market declares that data entry clerks are inputing information that someone needs and is willing to pay someone $12 an hour to do...the market also says that paramedics are providing a service that someone is only willing to pay $8 an hour for (in that location)... Forcing them out of balance in either direction can have untoward results in both the short and long term... > > Thanks, and this economics lesson brought to you by Adam ...the guy who first charted this all out. > > Dudley > > P.S. Again, I must state...the way to get better pay is to work to change the forces of demand NOT supply...we are all focused on the supply side now (paramedic shortage, low pay) but we MUST focus on the demand side and how to increase that (i.e. how to make us MORE valuable to society therefore driving up what the market is willing to pay)....after all, that will have the longest effects on our market... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Dr. Bledsoe, Unfortunately that is the way it goes in society today. The people to blame are those at the top of the company pay scale, the boss and his boss. The same is to be said with city and county governments. I have been in EMS since 1986 and I'd rather do it as a volunteer than to have someone tell me that all my education and experience is only worth $8.00/hour or less. I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not willing to give up time with my family so that some fat administrator can line his pockets or the company coffers with money I earned. Nor will I work 90 hours a week to make the ends meet. It's not worth it. To tell you the truth sir, what we need are more physicians like yourself who understand exactly what it is we go through and can help to set a standard for hiring and pay. As a community we are the only ones who understand what each other has gone through to achieve the level of certification we currently posess, and we have to start to have those we work with ( and those we work for ) " watch our back " so to speak. THis means that the boss at your job will have to honestly evaluate your skills and qualifications and pay you accordingly. On the other hand it also means that you have to be in top form and willing to do the work, and do it the best you can. Unfortunately, there will always be someone willing to work for $6.00 / hour as a medic, and for that reason, there will always be some boss who will try to get away with paying it. Thank you for your work on behalf of providers everywhere. Cork Lic-P > My 17 year-old daughter graduated from high school last week. She has only held one job in her life (a clerk at a video rental place). Today, she went on a job interview and was hired on the spot making $ 12.00 per hour doing some sort of data entry. This just seemed ironic as a post on this list indicated that a paramedic felt he was being paid " well " at $ 8.00 per hour. Boy has our society gotten our values all wrong. This crap has to stop!! Pay people what they are worth to society! > > Bledsoe, DO > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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