Re: Went through a hellish time

[Guest guest]

Dear Apple.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. It is hard to be rejected and attacked

by near standing people. In reality you have been expelled by the majority,

and this produces shame.

The fight you're having is a fight about placing guilt and shame, and

they are two to one. You're obviously alone.

But shame is an anxiety producing condition, and therefore it's natural,

that you think of the last secure harbor, AA. Then you start feeling guilt

about this too. Not good sweaty!

If they in their hearts know that they have treated you bad, then they

will be more aggressive towards you than else. Therefore the suit against

you have this double intention of both trying to wash their hands and get

the dirt on you. Your problem stems from your accept of this dirt, although

you're not Jesus.

Therefore I think you should sum up your expectation of the humans,

and tell them the difference in what you believed in, and what really happened.

Tell them that their anger against you is just a way of trying to deny

their own bad behavior. Give them more dirt than they can stand to have.

Make copies of everything, start a documentable dialog and get their asses!

Use their own forces against themselves, that's the Judo principle.

"

Bjørn

AppleDTP@... wrote:

Hi gang:

I just went through a hellish time that almost lead me back to meetings. Why? Because that is what I did for five years, and I couldn't think of anything else, I'm sorry to say. I found myself in a panicky situation, and needed human support, and AA is where I got this for years.

The situation... There was dissent among the members of my household. One of the roommates, (interestingly, the one I met an AA meeting who was in anguish because she couldn't stand her current living situation, so I offered to her that she move in my house), turned out to be a bad apple. No.. a crazy apple. Her anguish had nothing to do with where she lived, but who she was. As soon as she moved in, I developed a lump of anxiety in the pit of my stomach, and sure enough, that lump was trying to tell me something. Without getting into the details, as bad apples are known to do, she spoiled the bunch, contamminating my other roommate and manipulating him to turn against me. There was an ugly incident where she was making specific demands for me to take care of something in an unreasonable way which we had already discussed as being a poor solution, and she relentlessly shouted in my face "I have rights... I have rights..." Despite my asking her to stop, later demanding that she leave me alone, she wouldn't, and I lost it. I threw a dog dish at the floor. As soon as that happened, I saw the "American shift" take place. The gleam that I saw in their eyes read "lawsuit, lawsuit". I hate the litigious climate of my nation! She has moved out because her lease was expiring this month. He refused to pay the rent a few days later until I signed a piece of paper stating that when he moved out (in 2 months), I would give his security deposit back immediately versus mailing it within 30 days as I am entitled to do by law. Well, he moved out on the sly, then stopped payment on the rent check. Now he wants to sue me for his security deposit on the grounds that he is entitled to break the lease because I threw the dog dish.

I know this is just another unpleasant life experience, and we ALL have them. The point being, that it somehow knocked me off my axis and drove me into a mini-depression. I found myself feeling very needy of being comforted by humans, and couldn't find it among my friends. I kept thinking meeting meeting meeting. I even called my ex-sponsor who is really one of the more open minded AAs I've ever met, and she pointed out that I've put myself in a position where I've alienated all my AA friends because of my open anti-AA attitude and the web site. She says that people feel that AA saves lives, and the perdicament I'm in is self-manufactured. She's pretty much right. Our family immigrated from Eastern Europe in the seventies, and I've never had more than a small immediate family to rely on. My parents live very far away (as far as you can get from each other in the US!), and my sister is three states away too. It is really hard to be alone, and the AA support started to look really tempting. Where I live, the types of groups that are available are: AA, bars, churches, Elks club, Sewing circle, and the like. The pickin's are typical Americana. I have friends, but they're scattered, and it's hard sometimes to find support that's as immediate as meetings are. I'm making an effort to establish more friendships so I don't find myself in situations where meetings start to look good again. I started feeling bad about having put up the website and told some AA friends about it. The last friend I told about the site (an ex boyfriend who keeps working the program, but still ends up at the suicide ward at regular intervals) saw it and said immediately "this is the equivalent of a Neo-Nazi site". Anyway, as you can tell, the situation of a few days ago got me really depressed. I was even thinking of asking someone on this list to talk on the phone, that's how close I was to going back to meetings. But I am feeling a little better now. Do any of you struggle like this? When does it end?

Apple

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[Guest guest]

Hi Apple. I'm so sorry you are hurting. I, too, have thought about

returning to AA out of lonliness but I don't because I don't want to drink.

How's that? Well, nothing makes me feel like having a drink like hanging

around AA. So not an option for me. I want to thank you for all you have

done here. I don't say much but read all, and am enormously grateful for the

thoughtful and intelligent words that come from this group. And if I'm

right, none of this would be here without you. so thanks. And you are

welcome to call me anytime. Just write privately and I will give you my

number.

For what it's worth, I had a roomate from hell last December. I sympathize

enormously. Take care. Hope things get better for you soon.

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[Guest guest]

---

Hey Apple,

Gosh, I'm sorry you've been so down... Please don't mistake AA

interactions for real interactions though. They are only pseudo-friends, and

only want to speak Steptalk... Is there any hobby or special-interest group of

normal folks you could get involved with, where you might be able to expand your

cicle of non-stepper friends and acquaintances?

Sometimes a stressful or crisis situation lets you know who your real

friends are; sometimes they are people you had always thought of as mere

acquaintances, while the ones you thought were good friends shy away and aren't

able to be supportive at all. I found this out when I was pregnant with my son

and his father walked out on me -- the most concerned and supportive person

around was a woman I worked with but felt I hardly knew. People I had known

longer and thought would be there for me turned out to be fair-weather friends.

Anyway, hope things start looking up soon --

~Rita

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[Guest guest]

At 09:47 AM 5/21/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi gang:

>I just went through a hellish time that almost lead me back to meetings.

Why? Because that is what I did for five years, and I couldn't think of

anything else, I'm sorry to say. I found myself in a panicky situation, and

needed human support, and AA is where I got this for years.

>

>The situation... There was dissent among the members of my household. One

of the roommates, (interestingly, the one I met an AA meeting who was in

anguish because she couldn't stand her current living situation, so I

offered to her that she move in my house), turned out to be a bad apple.

No.. a crazy apple. Her anguish had nothing to do with where she lived, but

who she was. As soon as she moved in, I developed a lump of anxiety in the

pit of my stomach, and sure enough, that lump was trying to tell me

something. Without getting into the details, as bad apples are known to

do, she spoiled the bunch, contamminating my other roommate and

manipulating him to turn against me. There was an ugly incident where she

was making specific demands for me to take care of something in an

unreasonable way which we had already discussed as being a poor solution,

and she relentlessly shouted in my face " I have rights... I have rights... "

Despite my asking her to stop, later demanding that she leave me alone, she

wouldn't, and I lost it. I threw a dog dish at the floor. As soon as that

happened, I saw the " American shift " take place. The gleam that I saw in

their eyes read " lawsuit, lawsuit " . I hate the litigious climate of my

nation! She has moved out because her lease was expiring this month. He

refused to pay the rent a few days later until I signed a piece of paper

stating that when he moved out (in 2 months), I would give his security

deposit back immediately versus mailing it within 30 days as I am entitled

to do by law. Well, he moved out on the sly, then stopped payment on the

rent check. Now he wants to sue me for his security deposit on the grounds

that he is entitled to break the lease because I threw the dog dish.

>

>I know this is just another unpleasant life experience, and we ALL have

them. The point being, that it somehow knocked me off my axis and drove me

into a mini-depression. I found myself feeling very needy of being

comforted by humans, and couldn't find it among my friends. I kept

thinking meeting meeting meeting. I even called my ex-sponsor who is

really one of the more open minded AAs I've ever met, and she pointed out

that I've put myself in a position where I've alienated all my AA friends

because of my open anti-AA attitude and the web site. She says that people

feel that AA saves lives, and the perdicament I'm in is self-manufactured.

She's pretty much right.

Well maybe, but being knocked off one's axis is a difficult and

disorienting experience and I wouldn't suggest that the 12 step people have

your best interests at heart just because you now feel in need of support!

I don't trust the quality of the advice or feedback you're getting on this

from the AA people. I can't quite put my finger on it. This is a rather

unusual situation- I don't think many people call their AA ex-sponsors for

support after putting up an anti-AA website(!), but even so, there is

something not quite right about it all. Maybe you are just asking the wrong

people for support.

I remember my own experiences in meetings- my feeling is that the idea of

the supportive loving community is much more of a fantasy than a reality.

You do get people flocking into hospitals to " support " someone who is

having an peration or whatver (and they can " share " about it in the meeting

afterwards, of course) but if it isn't a dramatic medical situation, it may

just not happen. When I became too ill to go to meetings any more, people

just dropped me. There was no dramatic hospital bedside thing for them to

do I suppose, plus I wasn't dying and it was a chronic condition that

wasn't going to go away after a quick op, so I think a lot of people just

didn't want to be involved. But oftentimes, this is the level of sincerity

of much 12 step support. Many fellowship people have apparently very small

minds. They may have been shrunken somewhat by the program, of course. This

is something a good friend of mine witnessed she is a reliable witness BTW,

otherwise I would find it hard to believe. When a woman in NA was dying of

cancer a few years ago and was in hospital in extreme pain and dosed up on

morphine, a couple of NA members who didn't even know her particularly well

went and did their fellowship duty and visited her. This involved the most

selfish act I can imagine- grabbing her while she lay in bed, dragging her

into a sitting up position and giving her a big NA hug. Now whose benefit

was that for I wonder. My point is- the support you feel you are missing

may not be allit is cracked up to be.

I also think that this idea that you have somehow set everyone against you

is a convenient way to duck the issue for some of those people. What I mean

is- they wouldn't be helping you anyway! They would be trying to get you to

drop your own critical thinking ability and merge with the herd in a final

deep dreamless zombified sleep of conformity. It isn't a viable proposition

anyway, is it.

>Our family immigrated from Eastern Europe in the seventies, and I've never

had more than a small immediate family to rely on. My parents live very

far away (as far as you can get from each other in the US!), and my sister

is three states away too. It is really hard to be alone, and the AA

support started to look really tempting. Where I live, the types of groups

that are available are: AA, bars, churches, Elks club, Sewing circle, and

the like. The pickin's are typical Americana. I have friends, but they're

scattered, and it's hard sometimes to find support that's as immediate as

meetings are. I'm making an effort to establish more friendships so I

don't find myself in situations where meetings start to look good again.

This sounds very healthy to me. Good idea.

>I started feeling bad about having put up the website and told some AA

friends about it. The last friend I told about the site (an ex boyfriend

who keeps working the program, but still ends up at the suicide ward at

regular intervals) saw it and said immediately " this is the equivalent of a

Neo-Nazi site " . Anyway, as you can tell, the situation of a few days ago

got me really depressed. I was even thinking of asking someone on this list

to talk on the phone, that's how close I was to going back to meetings. But

I am feeling a little better now. Do any of you struggle like this? When

does it end?

>Apple

I don't struggle with any of this now but when I was still a member I had a

few very strange and disappointing situations where I needed (or believed I

needed) some support from my 12 step buddies and found it totally lacking.

I'd share abut a really serrious problem and get a couple of blank stares

(if that) and then ignored for thee rest of the meeting. Bear in mind I had

been for some years the kind of person who would go out of his way to help

people! I used to get extremely upset about this, it was really quite

traumatic for me at the time. I was very sensitive and had some beliefs

that caused me problems- ie I was a bit focused on how I *ought* to be

treated, and with the people in the meetings at the time, that just didn't

work. I remember feeling that I had some really difficult, really grown-up

problems and the people I was looking to for support were very much the

wrong sort of people.

I think time is a factor. I really don't see myself as a part of the 12

step fellowship of anything any more. I think it is so much bullshit mind

control and so little real help for anybody who wants to think for themself

that it is pointless even thinking about it! Whatever friends I have now

are outside of the 12 step idiom, even when they still go to meetings- we

don't really talk about it.

I hope you feel very much better very soon!

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

Hi Apple

Sorry to hear abt your roomie problems. I hope they

resolve ok. I hate that kind of thing.

God forbid I ever meet anyone at XA who's read some of the

stuff I've posted here. they'd kill me!

I have been driven back to OA both out of loneliness and

also an acknowledgement that my weight is a big problem

again. How exactly I will resolve all this is someting I

need to work out. I hve two brothers in London but one of

them has broken contact and I never usually saw them anyway.

Say, if you can live anywhere, why not come to London,

England, and Joe and I can make a fuss over you?

btw, I think it's understood here that AA's shouldnt be too

quick to call others neo-Nazi - they're crypto-Nazi!

Pete

I found myself feeling very needy of being comforted by

humans, and couldn't find it among my friends. I kept

thinking meeting meeting meeting.

Pete Watts

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[Guest guest]

I wish that I knew more people in my area (San Diego) that are in

'recovery' but no AA Recovery. Can't stand that step talk stuff!!!

Best,

Luanne

Railroad Rita wrote:

>

> ---

> Hey Apple,

>

> Gosh, I'm sorry you've been so down... Please don't mistake AA

interactions for real interactions though. They are only pseudo-friends, and

only want to speak Steptalk... Is there any hobby or special-interest group of

normal folks you could get involved with, where you might be able to expand your

cicle of non-stepper friends and acquaintances?

>

> Sometimes a stressful or crisis situation lets you know who your real

friends are; sometimes they are people you had always thought of as mere

acquaintances, while the ones you thought were good friends shy away and aren't

able to be supportive at all. I found this out when I was pregnant with my son

and his father walked out on me -- the most concerned and supportive person

around was a woman I worked with but felt I hardly knew. People I had known

longer and thought would be there for me turned out to be fair-weather friends.

>

> Anyway, hope things start looking up soon --

>

> ~Rita

>

> -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----

> http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Too much effort to find the stock info you want each day? StockMaster

> lets you enter a company name and quickly shows you a daily quote,

> chart, and news all on one page. Free! http://clickhere./click/71

>

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[Guest guest]

Pete,

Get Lois Trimpey'

s book " Fatness " or her new one " The Feast Beast " if you are worried about

your weight.

It's cognitive oriented.

Take Care,

We love you,

Carol (Brain dead)

At 11:26 PM 5/21/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi Apple

>

>Sorry to hear abt your roomie problems. I hope they

>resolve ok. I hate that kind of thing.

>

>God forbid I ever meet anyone at XA who's read some of the

>stuff I've posted here. they'd kill me!

>

>I have been driven back to OA both out of loneliness and

>also an acknowledgement that my weight is a big problem

>again. How exactly I will resolve all this is someting I

>need to work out. I hve two brothers in London but one of

>them has broken contact and I never usually saw them anyway.

>

>Say, if you can live anywhere, why not come to London,

>England, and Joe and I can make a fuss over you?

>

>btw, I think it's understood here that AA's shouldnt be too

>quick to call others neo-Nazi - they're crypto-Nazi!

>

>Pete

>

>

>

>I found myself feeling very needy of being comforted by

>humans, and couldn't find it among my friends. I kept

>thinking meeting meeting meeting.

>Pete Watts

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Explore the Web for sites in Health & Medicine from Looksmart!

>http://clickhere./click/295

>

>

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>

>

>

>

>

>

>

---

Up With People!

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

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[Guest guest]

Hi Apple !

I am 4 months sober.

The first 3 months of sobriety I spend in AA.

I discovered very soon the dis-honest and pseudo-religious nature of AA

and their 12 steps program. I quit before they could actually do me

real harm.

I discovered the crash course of Rational Recovery on the Internet, and

I feel great, and in control of my life again.

Although I have only been exposed to AA for a short period I feel

somehow 'soiled'.

I noticed that many people who left AA have deep feelings of anger. Me

too, but I want to forget about the AA episode as soon as possible and

get on with my life.

I sympathize with your plight regarding your room mate, and I would

like to have a look at your Web site if you would kindly give me the

URL address.

From Australia in friendship & sobriety yours,

Bart.

_____________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 09:49 PM 5/21/99 -0700, Luanne wrote:

>I wish that I knew more people in my area (San Diego) that are in

>'recovery' but no AA Recovery. Can't stand that step talk stuff!!!

>

>Best,

>Luanne

I'm not familiar with what cities are where over on that side of the US,

but I've heard of many SOS meetings in several areas of California. There

used to be a list of all known SOS meetings on the site

<http://www.unhooked.com>, but it seems to not be there now -

There's a story that some 'splinter' SOS groups in Northern CA, who

don't see a problem with moderate drinking (SOS overall is just a strongly

absinence-based as AA), have managed to get legal rights to the name

" Secular Organization of Sobriety/SOS " , in the area, and so other SOS

groups in the area are being court-ordered to not use the namme. These are

changing their names, probably all to a common name and probably to " Lifering

[secular] Recovery " .

The details of how the spliter groups got the trademark, etc, are sketchy,

partly because it's been in court and only recently been ruled on. The full

story will supposedly be put on the unhooked.com website soon.

You can check with those who run the website for meetings, and find

out what's what, and see if there are any in your area. And while I've

considered myself a member of SOS for the past several years, I don't

mean to give it a strong endorsement, as in 'theyre the best group of people

you'll meet' or anything like that. Many of them are from AA and keep some

parts of it including some slogans and beliefs, but overall SOS has much

less dogma and structure than AA.

-----

<http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved!

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[Guest guest]

Hi Pete --

Hope you don't mind my asking the 'obvious' question. After all you've said

about XA, why not try a rational alternative? WeightWatchers, e.g.? Or plain

old no-program diet+exercise?

Just curious...

-- Wally

Re: Went through a hellish time

>Hi Apple

>

>Sorry to hear abt your roomie problems. I hope they

>resolve ok. I hate that kind of thing.

>

>God forbid I ever meet anyone at XA who's read some of the

>stuff I've posted here. they'd kill me!

>

>I have been driven back to OA both out of loneliness and

>also an acknowledgement that my weight is a big problem

>again. How exactly I will resolve all this is someting I

>need to work out....

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[Guest guest]

hi everyone, i havent been reading this thread closely, so i hope im not

going to put my foot in my mouth.... from what i have read, it seems

some people are leaning towards going to meetings for the human contact.

And understandable reason in a 20th century american society where many

people dont even know thier neighbors. We seroiusly lack community

socializing and activity. But i remmeber when i first started writing to

ex-steppers on net, i got an intersting response to the subject of

meetings for socializing.

The response i got was " i would rather spend time being with people who

have same interests as me in common, not the same problems "

that really had an impact on me, even more so since i already knew i

didnt have the Proble these people where dwelling on and making thier

life focus.

(also want to note my feelings on this; i think that really is reason

most people stay in A.A. for years and decades. it gives them a place to

socilaize, but at same time they are elevated in stature by the amount

of time they have. so there is a twisted ego boost and a projection of

spirtual superiority used as justification for ANYTHING they say or do

to newcomers. But mainly i know stepper belief systems to be counter to

my sobriety. they are negatitve reinforcement. its perpetual recovery as

a hobby, and that's just sick)

dave

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[Guest guest]

Congratulations on finding the exit door so fast! Thanks for the positive

words. The site is www.AAdeprogramming.com

Sorry about feeling soiled by AA. Hope we here at 12 step free can get the

stains out.

Apple

> I am 4 months sober.

>

> The first 3 months of sobriety I spend in AA.

> I discovered very soon the dis-honest and pseudo-religious nature of AA

> and their 12 steps program. I quit before they could actually do me

> real harm.

>

> I discovered the crash course of Rational Recovery on the Internet, and

> I feel great, and in control of my life again.

>

> Although I have only been exposed to AA for a short period I feel

> somehow 'soiled'.

>

> I noticed that many people who left AA have deep feelings of anger. Me

> too, but I want to forget about the AA episode as soon as possible and

> get on with my life.

>

> I sympathize with your plight regarding your room mate, and I would

> like to have a look at your Web site if you would kindly give me the

> URL address.

>

> From Australia in friendship & sobriety yours,

>

> Bart.

>

>

>

> _____________________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Well done, Apple. You are rebounding. We stand united.

Carol

At 02:43 AM 5/23/99 -0000, you wrote:

>Congratulations on finding the exit door so fast! Thanks for the positive

words. The site is www.AAdeprogramming.com

>Sorry about feeling soiled by AA. Hope we here at 12 step free can get the

stains out.

>Apple

>> I am 4 months sober.

>>

>> The first 3 months of sobriety I spend in AA.

>> I discovered very soon the dis-honest and pseudo-religious nature of AA

>> and their 12 steps program. I quit before they could actually do me

>> real harm.

>>

>> I discovered the crash course of Rational Recovery on the Internet, and

>> I feel great, and in control of my life again.

>>

>> Although I have only been exposed to AA for a short period I feel

>> somehow 'soiled'.

>>

>> I noticed that many people who left AA have deep feelings of anger. Me

>> too, but I want to forget about the AA episode as soon as possible and

>> get on with my life.

>>

>> I sympathize with your plight regarding your room mate, and I would

>> like to have a look at your Web site if you would kindly give me the

>> URL address.

>>

>> From Australia in friendship & sobriety yours,

>>

>> Bart.

>>

>>

>>

>> _____________________________________________________________

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Wally

Well, as I indicated, it's partly thru loneliness that I go back to OA. Ok, I

would meet ppl at

weightwatchers, but then that's a commercial thing, not an ongoing thing like

OA.

I admit my reasons arent very healthy perhaps. As I've posted before, the XA

philosophy has made

a massive change in the way I think, making me much more religious in my outlook

than I ever was

before. It always was compelling, like a UV light to a fly.

I have always been a guru chaser, someone ripe to get caught up in a cult. only

my atheism

protected me from it, and even that failed as the pull back to Xtianity got me a

number of

times. XA is perfect for sucking in someone like me.

My religious, and abusive childhood, and my physical abandonment by my father

and emotional by

my mother, set me up to constantly long and hunger for a 'Higher Power', or

person/ppl to take

care of me. the damage that the abuse did to me, has made me have very little

sense of self,

very little belief in my worth or capabilities. I realize I live with a constant

sense of shame,

fear and also simmering disgust and anger that can flare up to rage with my

tormentors, that are

out of my life now, but live on in my mind, and are masks that I put over the

faces of new ppl

that I meet who could love me if I let them and have much less power, or reason,

to hurt me in

any case.

What my sponsor would call my 'addictive disease' ( in reality, chronic

depression and anxiety

as result of child abuse) has robbed me of education, career, health, sexuality

and love.

I may indeed be one who needs to have a radical transformation to recover. I am

not one for such

'letting go' however. I have good reason not to believe in a loving God or a

benevolent universe.

This is very negative, whereas in reality I'm actually a bit better now; but it

looks like my

exams have gone south again, this time for good.

I think I wrote abt how the woman who introduced me to OA also goes to a Fat

Women's group who

are very in-yer-face abt being fat and being proud of it as well. I respect her

and the

synthesis seems to work for her; so I guess with this list and OA I'm doing the

same thing.

So, one struggles on. I might meet another gf in OA, like I did last time, and I

will take care

to treat her well, as I tried to before, if my illness lets me.

Pete

> Hi Pete --

>

> Hope you don't mind my asking the 'obvious' question. After all you've said

> about XA, why not try a rational alternative? WeightWatchers, e.g.? Or plain

> old no-program diet+exercise?

>

> Just curious...

>

> -- Wally

>

> Re: Went through a hellish time

>

>

> >Hi Apple

> >

> >Sorry to hear abt your roomie problems. I hope they

> >resolve ok. I hate that kind of thing.

> >

> >God forbid I ever meet anyone at XA who's read some of the

> >stuff I've posted here. they'd kill me!

> >

> >I have been driven back to OA both out of loneliness and

> >also an acknowledgement that my weight is a big problem

> >again. How exactly I will resolve all this is someting I

> >need to work out....

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

My heart goes out to ya Pete... It's simply amazing how years and years spent in

our families can have a long term effect. I can't say I was abused, well perhaps

emotionally in a covert way, but I rarely expressed my true feelings in my

family. So having a group to listen to my crap helped. Now I see a shrink, but

it's only once a week, and I feel like I've alienated a few people lately. I

somehow made friends with two shrinks and a woman who had seen a shrink for 12

years and might as well be a shrink so as far as I was concerned she was as good

as a shrink. I guess I just needed a shrink so bad that my subconscious took

over and I found them! I need someone to listen, I need to practice saying what

I feel and pushing out the real feelings instead of the nicey nice ones that are

delivered with a dead thud of insincerity.

It's a question of survival sometimes. The days pass and I feel more and more

dead inside. Then I get glimmers of hope. Will I ever be the person I want to

be? How's that for depressing???

Apple

wrote:

Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4180

> Hi Wally

>

> Well, as I indicated, it's partly thru loneliness that I go back to OA. Ok, I

would meet ppl at weightwatchers, but then that's a commercial thing, not an

ongoing thing like OA.

>

> I admit my reasons arent very healthy perhaps. As I've posted before, the XA

philosophy has made a massive change in the way I think, making me much more

religious in my outlook than I ever was before. It always was compelling, like a

UV light to a fly.

>

> I have always been a guru chaser, someone ripe to get caught up in a cult.

only my atheism protected me from it, and even that failed as the pull back to

Xtianity got me a number of

> times. XA is perfect for sucking in someone like me.

>

> My religious, and abusive childhood, and my physical abandonment by my father

and emotional by

> my mother, set me up to constantly long and hunger for a 'Higher Power', or

person/ppl to take

> care of me. the damage that the abuse did to me, has made me have very little

sense of self,

> very little belief in my worth or capabilities. I realize I live with a

constant sense of shame,

> fear and also simmering disgust and anger that can flare up to rage with my

tormentors, that are

> out of my life now, but live on in my mind, and are masks that I put over the

faces of new ppl

> that I meet who could love me if I let them and have much less power, or

reason, to hurt me in

> any case.

>

> What my sponsor would call my 'addictive disease' ( in reality, chronic

depression and anxiety

> as result of child abuse) has robbed me of education, career, health,

sexuality and love.

>

> I may indeed be one who needs to have a radical transformation to recover. I

am not one for such

> 'letting go' however. I have good reason not to believe in a loving God or a

benevolent universe.

>

> This is very negative, whereas in reality I'm actually a bit better now; but

it looks like my

> exams have gone south again, this time for good.

>

> I think I wrote abt how the woman who introduced me to OA also goes to a Fat

Women's group who

> are very in-yer-face abt being fat and being proud of it as well. I respect

her and the

> synthesis seems to work for her; so I guess with this list and OA I'm doing

the same thing.

>

> So, one struggles on. I might meet another gf in OA, like I did last time, and

I will take care

> to treat her well, as I tried to before, if my illness lets me.

>

> Pete

>

>

>

> > Hi Pete --

> >

> > Hope you don't mind my asking the 'obvious' question. After all you've said

> > about XA, why not try a rational alternative? WeightWatchers, e.g.? Or plain

> > old no-program diet+exercise?

> >

> > Just curious...

> >

> > -- Wally

> >

> > Re: Went through a hellish time

> >

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[Guest guest]

Hi Apple

My heart goes out to you too.

I think it's generally accepted now that what makes a good

therapist is the quality of empathy, which varies through

the population like weight or height, and that professional

therps on average have no mnore of it than ordinary ppl. I

have had one terrible therp and others not very good; no

therp is ever as important as a good friend.

take care

Pete

> My heart goes out to ya Pete... It's simply amazing how years and years spent

in our families can have a long term effect. I can't say I was abused, well

perhaps emotionally in a covert way, but I rarely expressed my true feelings in

my family. So having a group to listen to my crap helped. Now I see a shrink,

but it's only once a week, and I feel like I've alienated a few people lately.

I somehow made friends with two shrinks and a woman who had seen a shrink for 12

years and might as well be a shrink so as far as I was concerned she was as good

as a shrink. I guess I just needed a shrink so bad that my subconscious took

over and I found them! I need someone to listen, I need to practice saying what

I feel and pushing out the real feelings instead of the nicey nice ones that are

delivered with a dead thud of insincerity.

> It's a question of survival sometimes. The days pass and I feel more and more

dead inside. Then I get glimmers of hope. Will I ever be the person I want to

be? How's that for depressing???

> Apple

>

>

> wrote:

> Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4180

> > Hi Wally

> >

> > Well, as I indicated, it's partly thru loneliness that I go back to OA. Ok,

I would meet ppl at weightwatchers, but then that's a commercial thing, not an

ongoing thing like OA.

> >

> > I admit my reasons arent very healthy perhaps. As I've posted before, the XA

philosophy has made a massive change in the way I think, making me much more

religious in my outlook than I ever was before. It always was compelling, like a

UV light to a fly.

> >

> > I have always been a guru chaser, someone ripe to get caught up in a cult.

only my atheism protected me from it, and even that failed as the pull back to

Xtianity got me a number of

> > times. XA is perfect for sucking in someone like me.

> >

> > My religious, and abusive childhood, and my physical abandonment by my

father and emotional by

> > my mother, set me up to constantly long and hunger for a 'Higher Power', or

person/ppl to take

> > care of me. the damage that the abuse did to me, has made me have very

little sense of self,

> > very little belief in my worth or capabilities. I realize I live with a

constant sense of shame,

> > fear and also simmering disgust and anger that can flare up to rage with my

tormentors, that are

> > out of my life now, but live on in my mind, and are masks that I put over

the faces of new ppl

> > that I meet who could love me if I let them and have much less power, or

reason, to hurt me in

> > any case.

> >

> > What my sponsor would call my 'addictive disease' ( in reality, chronic

depression and anxiety

> > as result of child abuse) has robbed me of education, career, health,

sexuality and love.

> >

> > I may indeed be one who needs to have a radical transformation to recover. I

am not one for such

> > 'letting go' however. I have good reason not to believe in a loving God or a

benevolent universe.

> >

> > This is very negative, whereas in reality I'm actually a bit better now; but

it looks like my

> > exams have gone south again, this time for good.

> >

> > I think I wrote abt how the woman who introduced me to OA also goes to a Fat

Women's group who

> > are very in-yer-face abt being fat and being proud of it as well. I respect

her and the

> > synthesis seems to work for her; so I guess with this list and OA I'm doing

the same thing.

> >

> > So, one struggles on. I might meet another gf in OA, like I did last time,

and I will take care

> > to treat her well, as I tried to before, if my illness lets me.

> >

> > Pete

> >

> >

> >

> > > Hi Pete --

> > >

> > > Hope you don't mind my asking the 'obvious' question. After all you've

said

> > > about XA, why not try a rational alternative? WeightWatchers, e.g.? Or

plain

> > > old no-program diet+exercise?

> > >

> > > Just curious...

> > >

> > > -- Wally

> > >

> > > Re: Went through a hellish time

> > >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh

Well that response certainly makes me feel like I'm back in

OA again....

No-one's in charge here - but my illness (dysthymic

disorder) is very, very real, and even with the happy

pills, has me bested most of the time.

P.

On Fri, 28 May 1999 19:18:30 -0700 Kayleigh S

wrote:

>

>

> >So, one struggles on. I might meet another gf in OA, like I did last time,

and I will take care

> >to treat her well, as I tried to before, if my illness lets me.

> >

> >Pete

>

> Oh, Pete, puhlease! I hope this is a facetious or sarcastic remark.

>

> The whole tone of your letter is " Poor me. " Who's in charge here, them, your

" illness, " or you?

>

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

Pete Watts

Owner

PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

PD Personality Disorders Discussion

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/99 8:14:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

joe-b@... writes:

> My feeling is that you are actually feeding this thing by giving it

> affirmation and saying how well the two of you (you and OA) are matched!

Joe,

Feeding? I hope the pun was unintentional! <g>

Henders

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[Guest guest]

Dear Apple.

Keep your head high.

You'r right about your assumption on Bill W., at least the depression.

Bufe in " AA. Cult or Cure " p. 48:

" In 1944 ....Bill fell into deep depression; it was a problem

which would plague him for more than a decade. "

Ironically you can see the megalomania in the opposite. For example the

common statement by a depressive person, that the world would be a

better place without him or her. As if the world would care! Maybe your

friends or your family, but not the world.

Bjørn

appleDTP@... wrote:

>

> Hi Bjorn:

I'm convinced that Bill W. suffered from megalomania, as well as depression. I

think he was a manic depressive. I found this little bit of history on a site

which is dedicated to AA history...

> > http://www.thejaywalker.com/pages/tibout_ego.def.html

I guess the psychiatrist who wrote it, Dr. Tibout is the equivalent of Dr.

Silkworth who gave the famed doctor's opinion. I ask you, if the steps were

meant to smash the ego, how can they possibly help people with weak or damaged

egos?

here's another link from that same site, called " Rent a Sponsor and 4th Step

Writing Service "

http://www.thejaywalker.com/pages/rent-a-sp.html

I love tough love. Boy o boy do I love it.

I contacted that site to get some history behind the Dr. Tiebout letter. The

site owner refered me to his friend who politely conversed with me in e-mail. I

did not reveal my identity, but he found it out somehow, and later sent me an

e-mail to the AA deprogramming site saying that he wants to mail me more

information regarding the history of that letter, and he needs my name, address

& telephone number. man oh man.

Apple

>

> Hi Pete.

>

> I would guess you're a therapist killer. Nobody can make a diagnose

> without meeting disclaims supported by references or investigations.

> I would call your condition a neurotic depression. The proof is your

> ability to make this list occupied with a condition they obviously can

> do nothing about. Spreading your depressed state. A true depressive

> wouldn't do that!

>

> But as you probably know, the other side of the coin of depression is

> megalomania.

>

> You asked for it.

>

> Bjørn

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh

Tx for the apology.

I guess youre right that the social aspect of OA isnt

really a good reason to go to it, but I do find making

friends thru other channels difficult, and I will be losing

my students status in a few weeks. As for the philosophy,

I dont think it all bad, and I guess I can rework it to

something that's fairly reasonable. I just have to be

careful not to get into doctrinal debates with the

fundies...

Pete

On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 21:38:24 -0700 Kayleigh S

wrote:

> Dear Pete,

>

> I'm sorry if you took what I said in a different spirit than I meant. When

you talked about OA, I assumed that overeating was the " illness " at issue.

Evidently you didn't mean that.

>

> I know that depression can be overpowering, and I don't mean to belittle that.

I do believe that if you attend OA, you will be told that you are not in charge,

and so you will not be motivated to search out the best alternatives for

yourself. Even if you remain motivated, I think that being told you are

powerless and only God can help is a profoundly depressing message.

>

> If the main reason for going to OA is social, surely there are other social

groups that you could attend? Particularly if you are a student.

>

> Didn't mean to nag. I know that " Snap out of it " is one of the most

discouraging things a depressed person can hear, and I apologize.

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

>

>

> >Hi Kayleigh

> >

> >Well that response certainly makes me feel like I'm back in

> >OA again....

> >

> >No-one's in charge here - but my illness (dysthymic

> >disorder) is very, very real, and even with the happy

> >pills, has me bested most of the time.

> >

> >P.

> >

> >On Fri, 28 May 1999 19:18:30 -0700 Kayleigh S

> > wrote:

> >

> >>

> >>

> >> >So, one struggles on. I might meet another gf in OA, like I did last time,

and I will take care

> >> >to treat her well, as I tried to before, if my illness lets me.

> >> >

> >> >Pete

> >>

> >> Oh, Pete, puhlease! I hope this is a facetious or sarcastic remark.

> >>

> >> The whole tone of your letter is " Poor me. " Who's in charge here, them,

your " illness, " or you?

> >>

> >> ---

> >> Kayleigh

> >>

> >> Zz

> >> zZ

> >> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> >> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> >> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> >> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> >> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> >>

> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>

> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> >> - Simplifying group communications

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >Pete Watts

> >

> >Owner

> >PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

> >PD Personality Disorders Discussion

> >

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

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[Guest guest]

Bjorn, go learn abt atypical depression and hysteroid

dysphoria and then get back to me.

On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:17:10 +0200 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn?=

Herring wrote:

> Hi Pete.

>

> I would guess you're a therapist killer. Nobody can make a diagnose

> without meeting disclaims supported by references or investigations.

> I would call your condition a neurotic depression. The proof is your

> ability to make this list occupied with a condition they obviously can

> do nothing about. Spreading your depressed state. A true depressive

> wouldn't do that!

>

> But as you probably know, the other side of the coin of depression is

> megalomania.

>

> You asked for it.

>

> Bjxrn

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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