Guest guest Posted June 11, 1999 Report Share Posted June 11, 1999 Hi Jan; I can understand the " At least he's sober " doctrine for a short time. When I first got sober, say the first two weeks, I just wasn't capable of much. Jumped at every loud noise, felt like a stranger inside my own skin. I think maybe in that first two weeks I mowed the yard, beyond that I just sat around and read or watched TV etc. After the bad physical effects were gone I was up and running and I began to have a life to lead. At that point the at least he's sober thing ends. Believe me if the police caught that guy you mentioned they would not say at least he's sober! They'd say " Book him Dano " 8-) Shirking one's real responsibilities with pat phrases does not seem like the way to a healthy life to me. I was around AA for a lot of years and I still have trouble with that bloody stepspeak popping into my head. I no longer believe the garbage, but the repitition over a long period of time makes those things a habit and one that seems to just hang on. At least I've gotten far enough that I don't actually say them anymore. As they say " Time heals all wounds and wounds all heels " 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Apple; Last letter I had your post and Bob's combined in my head. Hope that explains why the last part of my post was a non-sequitar. Many large booze producers support AA and AA style treatments. AA holds everyone blameless, and " No Fault " is popular with big corporations. Giving to AA and having it ingrained in everyone's head that the booze company and their distributors are blameless is great PR and stops a lot of lawsuits before they start. It also, like most other things in AA, flies in the face of reason. Where else but in booze manufacture could you make a recreational product that poisons ten percent of the folks that use it? If booze was a tennis ball that hurt ten percent of the folks hit by it, the thing would be gone from the shelves tomorrow! Probably a poor analogy, but you get the idea. No, I'm not anti booze, it's just another one of the irrationalities of AA. Once I picked away the mysticism surrounding my view off AA the nonsense of the whole thing shown through.. I recall you once mentioned three or four good things about AA one of them being meetings to share with others. Most AA groups limit what you can say (See 's post and others) so how effective is the sharing when I can't tell about MY problems in the raw? Only problems acceptable to some mystical standard and how they relate to that standard are discussed. Why should anyone be prevented from telling their experience. God, I'm 61 years old, been in about 40 detoxes, 1 state mental hospital, did 4 years of a 25 in The State Penitentiary and have been in several jails. Are my ears so virgin I can't listen to what goes on in Gay Bars? Give me a break! The Core reason for sharing is to prove to ourselves from the responses of others, that we are not freaks or crazies. But doesn't AA say we are freaks and crazies, when they won't allow us to speak of our experiences. The one place we should be able to air some of the things that shame us or cause guilt and resentment is cut off. The Message, " Stuff IT! " Hell we been doin' that for years, I don't need AA to tell me to stuff it, the rest of society has already done that and AA just reinforces it! AA for me, was the worst aspects of society condensed and evaporated or freeze dried into a concentrate that might eventually have killed me. It's great to be free, even if some of the old enslaving phrases pop into my head now and then. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Kathy: Your letter really touched me. I too, have the same life's experiences and have suffered PTSD since the tender age of 3. I watched my new love flirt with other women at meetings, call him for rides and ultimately nine years later, have a child by him. I found underwear and sex toys and movies and crumpled tissues. But I couldn't put my arms around him - or even touch him in the night-my most vulnerable time. As a result of leaving AA, I have a new job, but I lost my 10-year old daughter in the divorce proceedings-we have joint custody, but we live 1000 miles apart. There's a lot of really unbelieveable stuff that went on there. Most of the people I thought were my friends sided with my ex-of course I MUST be drunk-I don't go to meetings anymore! How betrayed I felt! But I wasn't going to go back to him or the damned meetings-I was waking up. Anyway, I live in a different town now and am in a very good relationship. I am happier than I have ever been in my life and I know I can feel even better. It will take work, but what the heck have I been doing since I got sober in '82 and started working on me? Thanks-hang in there. There are ididots out there, but there are also good people. >From: BALIHAI333@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 01:09:39 EDT > > thank you for your description of PTSD. I have suffered with it since >the age of 8 and your description of the self destruct mode that comes on >the >eve of success is dead on in my life. > >One of the saddest things for me is remembering early on in my relationship >with Mr. AA, his little boy came out and played with my little girl. >Innocence and joy run rampant. But then he got into CODA plus he was doing >his harrumph hurrah AA show 24 hours a day 7 days a week when he was having >wonderful fun so of course it couldn't last. We used to save one day a >week >just for us. It was magic. We would start with a visit to the duck pond >with tons of bread, go to the beach and depending on which one we would >play >and swim and explore and read and relax and make love if all was clear and >it >was magic. But little by little the days were cut short by AA meetings. It >made me sick. But at least I have the sweet memories of the good days we >had. He said he went back to our favorite beach at Bellows and thought to >himself, " if Kathy had worked her program, we would be here today. " I have >sobbed my heart out over this, my inability to swallow AA and live a lie. >Was it Apple that said the search for truth is such a lonely life. It sure >is. If I could have been Mrs. AA, if only, if only, but I know I had not a >chance in hell of sobriety living a lie. And something funny, he went to >Hawaii when we were in New Mexico. On return I found womens underwear and >sex toys and lost it. Grief like I couldn't believe. He said, and this is >a >direct quote, " but Kathy, you should be glad. I've been seeing a >prostitute. >You know all the women in AA want to date me and I tell them I can't >because >I'm still married to Kathy. " It left me so dazed and confused and grief >stricken. Oh well, enough down memory lane. But your writings are >bringing >up so much for me. Kathy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Make the News Come to you! FREE email newsletters sent directly to >your in-box USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! >http://clickhere./click/316 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 , thank you so much. I'm am dissolved in tears after reading your post. But hopeful tears for a change. Thanks. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Thank you too, . And Apple for getting me in touch with people who understand. Thanks. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hi Kathy; Hopefully a short note this time 8-) When I went into aa I sort of strapped on some heavy armor. As long as I wore it, everything about me was related to my drinking, especially my failures like losing jobs. I knew this wasn't true from my perspective since two companies that let me go didn't even know I drank, other than at the one Christmas party. But I went along with it because these folks were the experts 8-( During the time I was in AA, the armor had to be reinforced as reality kept trying to get inside where I was. Eventually I was reinforcing the armor by repeating the lies I'd been told as if they were gospel truth. The armor served well in protecting me from normal human contact and allowed me to slide down into a pit of misery, all the time believing it was the only way. For my past I NEEDED to suffer. When the day came that I thought I had suffered enough, the armor wouldn't come off. I discovered that all these years, I had been serving and servicing the armor, it served me not at all. With much stretching, twisting and cutting, I got the armor off and threw it in a heap in the corner. The real world seemed a cold place and the armor called to me from the corner to come back where it was warm and the world was known. I got some blankets instead, but still it called. As the real world became more known it became less cold and the armors call was less seductive. One morning I came down for breakfast and the armor was standing upright and it demanded I put it back on as my moral obligation since I had built it then abandoned it. I called the junk man instead. As you said, " Hopefull Tears " My eyes tear up everytime I think or write about what I remember as " The day we flew the kites " It was my first day of freedom, but it was also my last day of slavery. I could never go back into the cage again, no matter how badly I might want to get back there. I'll bet, the first time your kid got mad at his adult for taking her day and putting an AA meeting into it, the handwriting was on the wall. She knew, whether you did or not that she was being betrayed again. She doesn't need to feel that way, ever again, because you can protect her, you are in command. Hopefull is a good word, it just feels good ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hi Bob, No, I hadn't considered putting her name up, though she is practicing only about 100 miles tops from here. AA is pretty powerfull here and could I believe cause me some grief with the state. Many State agencies are solid AA top to bottom. Public health is one for sure. The 40 year sober guy I talk about was the administrator of a big hospital. He got mostly AA people in under him, for every position he could. This happened a lot in the late sixties and early seventies and we are now reaping the whirlwind, so to speak. I did four years in The Fort Madison Max Security penitentiary from 77 to 81 and it was easier than trying to reconcile all the crap in AA Since I have broke free of ptsd, I have become a great believer in play as necessary therapy. When I was little I had no real chance to play. I was always working on something to please him, to keep safe. It didn't work, he'd always think of something I " Should have " known, but didn't because no one told me. I should have known this and done that. For not knowing and doing I'd get whipped on. They were all in his sick head, I had no realistic way of knowing. He was frustrated and wanted to beat on me, but it had to be justified, so he'd make something up. My wife Rose is a childhood incest survivor. She never learned to play because she was always figuring out ways to avoid being alone with her hero father. Yeah, fucker was a navy cross winner from WWII My father was a mucky muck in the church, which is where I got my love for religion 8-) Anyway he made a big deal of the church and donated money and time to causes of various types. As you might imagine I got real tired of hearing what a great guy he was from the people he bought. What chance of being believed did either Rose or I have? Nada, zip, zero, and none. So we lived with it. In the midst of all that fear, I eventually went numb and stayed that way. I had been in fear so long, I no longer recognized it as fear. One day I didn't get up quick enough and the old man grabbed me and was going to body slam me like he'd done many times, but I reversed it on him and he went down with me on top. I jumped up and got ready to go, I still wasn't fully awake. He backed up and said " You want trouble, I think I'll just get rid of you to Eldora as an uncontrollable delinquent. " He could do it too. In those days his word was enough to put me in prison till I was 21 and I think I was 12 at the time. No, I must have been 14, seems I was in Junior High. That was however, the last time he tried that body slam shit! Anyway the tradeoff for the lack of fear was the pain, which brought on more fear. Sucks doesn't it? After 40 years of living with that I had to learn to play. I did and so did Rose as you can see in a couple of my other posts Learning to have fun like a ten year old is the day I mark as my first of freedom and last day of slavery to my old ways. The old ways were the always serious ways of AA. In those old ways, we only laughed at misery, think about it. We never laughed at the joy of just diving a kite or something truly joyous. We laughed at someone elses misfortune, bundled as humor. I couldn't go back to those " After I hit the phone pole, this cop comes up and................ " stories. After freedom, they weren't funny, but tragic. Dr Laing had told me that when I made a discovery and took a step forward, I couldn't turn around and go back, it won't work. She was right. That's why I think your bike idea is so great. A chance to have fun, meet folks if you want and see your whole neighborhood in a different light Hope you enjoy it as much as I think you will, I always enjoyed a bike ride. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hi Jan This opens up an interesting question. Nobody can be banned from A apparently. So a member makes a criminal assault on a vulnerable person (remember sometimes AA attenders are as young as only 10 years old) and this person can never be banned? how do they handle that one? P. On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:50:19 -0400 Rio wrote: > I can recall only one time a member was really reprimanded for his bad behavior and it was serious - it couldn't be ignored. He fondled a daughter of another member at the local AA club. He was barred from the club. No escuse for what he did; however, the couple whose daughter was molested just about lived at the AA club with their kids. They'd play cards and go to umpteen meetings and let the kids run wild around the club. I never thought kids should be at the AA meetings especially the clubs. They are basically bars without booze. The kids are usually not disciplined to behave themselves. And they are exposed to alot of coarse language and sickos like the guy described above. But cults want the young ones - indoctrinate them early, I guess. > > Jan > > Re: : Bad Taste of AA > > > At 06:50 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: > >At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: > <snip> > >>It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they > >>are abused but not when they abuse others. > > I read this sentence before and it struck a chord and I couldn't think why. > Now that I read it again I know what it is. The REASON those people are > more likely to make amends when THEY are abused than when they abuse others > is that they feel more guilty when they are abused than they do when they > abuse others. This sounds insane, and it is. But that is where a > self-undermining self-betraying 12 step program can take you. > > > The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes > >attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " > >easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " > <snip> > > Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher > >standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of > >the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal > >is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. > <snip> > > I think the reason why I felt so uncomfortable around people who were > congratulating themselves for staying sober (or clean) and who were still > hurting others in some way, usually newcomers, is obvious to me now. I felt > uncomfortable because the 12 step programs seemed to be about helping > rotten, abusive human beings to take advantage of vulnerable people and yet > still feel comfortable with themselves whilst not changing or becoming > better people, but simply giving them a bullshit language, with programmy > things to say in meetings about " I'm still only human " , " I'm still no > angel " (laughter from knowing members, very funny, ha ha). And of course it > is the people who are abused by such predatory members who are verbally > attacked for daring to complain about their treatment by people with more > " time " , and are told to take thier inventories, and pray to have *their* > character defects removed. > > Joe Berenbaum > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > www. - Simplifying group communications > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 , I am going to print your post and put it where I can see it everyday. Yes she was upset to say the least. But that there was validity to it is new to me but sure makes me feel better about the tough choiced I've made. Funny, I'm in paralegal school. hope I don't blow it. Thanks again for your kind and wise words. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Thanks a bunch, ! I have watched Charlie with his children for three years now. He is so kind and gentle. He was adopted and his mother was in her mid-30s when she and his dad got him. He was raised with a very generous spirit. I have no idea why I was attracted to him! This is the total opposite of everything I had ever been attracted to before! I married my first husband when I was 17. My dad signed for me. Very protective, huh? I had two children by the time I was 19. That was an abusive relationship even before I married him and it only got worse. Fidelity? Nothing, on either part. We drank-being a good Navy family, and boy, did things get messy. We were married for 11 years. He beat me, beat the kids, verbal abuse, broken furniture, the whole 9 yards. Near the end of the marriage, he was bringing his girlfriends home. I really think he was trying to wake me up and get me to quit drinking by doing that. I did get sober during that marriage. When I was about 9 months sober, I went to a vocational rehab service in order to inquire about college, etc. During that appointment, my husband beat my 8-year old son until he was black-and-blue all over, even knocking teeth out. We separated after that, but not after he began an affair with my best friend. My son is 25 now, and sometimes I really feel the guilt. My relationship with Charlie has really opened my eyes in so many areas, and with , the damage of his childhood is stark. He is very tentative in his relationships and lives alone. My 20 year old daughter is dealing with her demons, too. My first husband married a woman with older children. On visitations, he left the children alone. Their 13-year old son molested her when she was 8. She is recovering from cocaine addiction (almost 3 years now) and I have told her I will help her with whatever she feels she needs to make her feel better. very often, she directs all of her anger for everything at me. She hasn't seen her father in so long, that a few years ago, we were in a car, stopped at a traffic light. I looked over at the car next to us. The man seemed familiar. I asked her if that was her dad. She said she didn't know. Pretty sad. So I try to understand that the reason she directs her anger at me is because I'm there. And I always have been there. When I married my second husband, I had been sober about 3 years. He was a skinny little milquetoast kind of guy. No threat, right? Wrong! He used throughout the marriage and drove us into bankruptcy. In the meantime, I closed my eyes to reality, pretended everything was fine-after all, he wasn't hitting me-and had a tubal ligation reversal to have a child by " a man I really loved " . That child has been a weapon or a shield to him ever since she was born 10 years ago. When he nearly killed himself in 1994, he went into treatment. That was when his temper came out. He became verbally abusive, and finally physical. Nobody belived me. Somehow I felt myself viewed as " crazy " and " delusional " by AA'ers. Dave was a " nice guy " . How could I accuse him of those terrible things? So now he has primary custody of our daughter. I still have terrible pain about that, but I know I did my best at trying to take care of her. When Dave got out of treatment, his guilt, or whatever, made him cling to Cayla. When he put her to bed at night, he sometimes spent up to 2 hours reading and talking to her. I did the housework, cooking and worked full+time-in between migraines. He never wanted me close to her and used her to hide from me as well. That's another story. They became so entwined that by the time I left, I never would have been able to handle her. I let it happen. I was not strong then. I tried to change it, but the judge was against me, suffering losses of his own divorce-as I later discovered. Interesting that you have background in law. I have a PLS. Have been a legal assistant/researcher for 9 years. I don't work much in the field right now, but I love the subject. I was sued by an attorney recently (a very BAD attorney, I might add!)and wrote my own pleadings recently-an won the case-of course, with the help of one of my attorney friends. You've had an interesting life, to be sure! Fathers-mine is still alive and living in ABQ. Charlie has never met him and we were planning on going out to NM in Aug. It will be dad's 75th birthday. Neither one of us is really hot on the idea, but I think we will end up going, just to satisfy Charlie's curiosity, at least. I could care less about going. Charlie has always thought my dad knew something about the abuse I was suffering and may have even participated in it. Since I do have repressed memories about certain incidents, I guess it's possible. I sure don't want to remember, though. Let that sleeping dogs lie. I am very protected with Charlie-he knows me so well. I can breathe differently and he knows something's going on. I am more sensitive to him-more than anyone in my life. I have always been the type of person to be defensive and shield my feelings from others and emotionally " frost up " in dealing with other's feelings. I am learning how to be empathic now, and it's opened up a lot of areas emotionally. Thanks. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:20:02 -0600 > >Hi Rose; > >Sorry to hear about the crappy custody thing. Glad to hear you are >surviving it. > >I learned I was prone to being betrayed, because I was drawn to >abusive people. It was what I was accustomed to. I'd see the >seeds of the betrayal in the first week of a relationship, that little >mean streak in the other person. I knew it was worse than it >appeared, yet I would ignore it or pretend I didn't see it. > >When it became full blown, I'd make excuses for them and try to >pull their slack. All that did was make them expect me to do >everything that was their responsibility. When it finally blew up, I'd >be the big time loser for unvesting too much of myself in them > >The end result is that I would look to the world like a crazie and >they came off looking normal. Add my alcoholism to that and folks >would want to lock me up and give ex wife everything. However, >during that time period in my life I never got any length of sobriety. >Usually 3 months tops. I never got any sobriety until I quit AA and >a couple of years later went into therapy. The therapy gave me a >totally new lease on life. I'm married 11-1/2 years now, the other >two lasted five each. The first one had me locked up on the advice >of her Alanon group, the second had an affair with my AA sponsor >and tried to blame it on me. By that time I wasn't having much of >being blamed anymore. > >I forgave that one and we moved a hundred miles away. I had sold >my half of the business to my partner before we moved and was >hacking a cab till something showed up in the new town. A woman >ought never fool around when her husband drives a cab. About two >hours into my shift, I caught the Governor's wife. We lived across >the street from the governor's mansion. The car of my sponsor >from the other town was out front. I stopped and checked the >registration to be sure I wasn't being paranoid. He had no >legitimate reason to be there. > >I said nothing, I just moved everything out the next day and moved >on, while she was at her job. > >So I understand in a way what is happening to you. It's a terrible >feeling, that of being betrayed by someone you really believed in. > >Two years after that incident I went to prison with a 25 year >sentence for nearly killing a man. In prison strangely I learned >loyalty and how to live alone. I made two good friends, learned the >law and helped a long list of guys get out early and learned to play >guitar. However, I also contracted spinal Tuberculosis. I was >paralyzed for a couple of months but recovered. One of the friends >I keep in regular contact with. He, his wife and 4 children come up >and we ship the kids to the park and the big kids play on the >computers. I live in a small rural town, where a stranger around the >childrens park is immediately challenged so the kids are as safe >as they could be most anywhere and it gives them a sense of >freedom not to have a parent over their shoulder like they normally >do. > >Oh, in the event I was behind the walls 4 years of that 25. Guess >they figured I was pretty harmless in a body cast, just able to walk. > The chairman of the board of parole, a woman I grew to know >better after I was out, told me " We gotta' get rid of you, we can't >keep the place full with you here " She was only kidding, but it was >in reference to a case I won that released a bit over 200 guys in a >three month period. When I got out I went to work for a lawyer >doing pro bono appellate work, in a pretty big outfit, but I began >drinking again as soon as I had the key to success in my hand. I >got fired. > >In the first three months at the law office, I was introduced to the >three senior partners and they were going to help me financially to >get through school for paralegal and after the requisite 5 years get >me a pardon from the Gov, so I could go on to law school. > >That's what I flushed down the toilet by getting drunk again. I didn't >KNOW I had ptsd, or what it was. > >It was 8 years later I learned I had ptsd and what and why and that >AA had made the situation worse. I don't know who I hated worse, >the father who I had no choice but to take the beatings from, or the >AA people I had allowed to beat me up. Maybe I hated them >equally. If just sheer hatred could kill, all those AA folks would >have been as dead as my father and he died in 63 and it was 90 >when I found out and realized what had happened to me. There is >no pretty way to put what I felt. I was walking around right on the >threshold of rage, and I knew it, so I stayed away from AA and AA >people as much as possible. The anger gradually worked itself >out. I rehashed it and just got tired of it. I realized finally that I >had >been using logical tactics with sick people and sickness knows >nothing of logic, it only knows about sickness. I realized the >sickness that is AA is a twisted version of an illusion of what they >wished reality was. Everything an AA does is predicated on this >twisted wish. I also realized I had the sickness too. I was I felt >worse than others, because I could see it and was still in a real >sense doing it. I quit any conduct, except abstinence that >resembled AA. That was over 8 years ago. I no longer use >stepspeak and I am not powerless over whether I drink or not, or >any other part of my conduct. My conduct or behavior, answers to >my command. There is nothing the least mystical or spiritual >about that. If I become attracted to another woman, I am not >responsible for the thought. I damnwell am responsible for what I >do about it. Which will be nothing, because I'm married over 11 >years and my wife trusts me. I won't give her a reason to not trust >me, period! > >In the end life got simpler and easier when I took command of, and >responsibility for, my actions. An old stepspeak slogan jumps into >my head sometimes even now, but they have no power anymore. > >Good luck to you in your new relationship. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FREE email Newsletters delivered right to your in-box. >CNET, USAToday, RollingStone, and more… >Click Here Now! http://clickhere./click/314 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Kathy; Don't know if you read my post to -but I am a paralegal as well. When I first hit the AA Deprogramming Site, I breathed a big sigh of relief myself! It was like a dream come true-I wasn't crazy-there are people out there that question AA and its teachings. I used to be angry with this author-very prominent- Anyway, my sponsor was one of the first women in AA-she's 95-if she's still alive. He would follow us around, asking about " Bill's mistresses " . I was appalled and tried to protect her from him. Now I was thinking about looking him up...to see if I could help him with his research! How things can change! Good luck to you! Love, >From: BALIHAI333@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:38:57 EDT > >Thank you too, . And Apple for getting me in touch with people who >understand. Thanks. Kathy > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups now offers FREE email newsletters! >Women.com, RollingStone, Travelocity, and more… >Sign-up Now! http://clickhere./click/315 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Very carefully. What a joyous romping ground for perverts. Do they say to just old ignore old ny in the back but just don't get alone with him.. eau... More secular recovery groups needed. Even though people don't need NEED groups the authorities can use them as a stepping stone to a more realitistic approach to addiction cessation. Carol At 12:32 AM 6/16/99 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Jan > >This opens up an interesting question. Nobody can be banned >from A apparently. So a member makes a criminal assault on >a vulnerable person (remember sometimes AA attenders are as >young as only 10 years old) and this person can never be >banned? how do they handle that one? > >P. > >On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:50:19 -0400 Rio > wrote: > >> I can recall only one time a member was really reprimanded for his bad behavior and it was serious - it couldn't be ignored. He fondled a daughter of another member at the local AA club. He was barred from the club. No escuse for what he did; however, the couple whose daughter was molested just about lived at the AA club with their kids. They'd play cards and go to umpteen meetings and let the kids run wild around the club. I never thought kids should be at the AA meetings especially the clubs. They are basically bars without booze. The kids are usually not disciplined to behave themselves. And they are exposed to alot of coarse language and sickos like the guy described above. But cults want the young ones - indoctrinate them early, I guess. >> >> Jan >> >> Re: : Bad Taste of AA >> >> >> At 06:50 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: >> <snip> >> >>It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they >> >>are abused but not when they abuse others. >> >> I read this sentence before and it struck a chord and I couldn't think why. >> Now that I read it again I know what it is. The REASON those people are >> more likely to make amends when THEY are abused than when they abuse others >> is that they feel more guilty when they are abused than they do when they >> abuse others. This sounds insane, and it is. But that is where a >> self-undermining self-betraying 12 step program can take you. >> >> > The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes >> >attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " >> >easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " >> <snip> >> > Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher >> >standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of >> >the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal >> >is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> <snip> >> >> I think the reason why I felt so uncomfortable around people who were >> congratulating themselves for staying sober (or clean) and who were still >> hurting others in some way, usually newcomers, is obvious to me now. I felt >> uncomfortable because the 12 step programs seemed to be about helping >> rotten, abusive human beings to take advantage of vulnerable people and yet >> still feel comfortable with themselves whilst not changing or becoming >> better people, but simply giving them a bullshit language, with programmy >> things to say in meetings about " I'm still only human " , " I'm still no >> angel " (laughter from knowing members, very funny, ha ha). And of course it >> is the people who are abused by such predatory members who are verbally >> attacked for daring to complain about their treatment by people with more >> " time " , and are told to take thier inventories, and pray to have *their* >> character defects removed. >> >> Joe Berenbaum >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >> >> www. - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> > >Pete Watts > >Owner >PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm >PD Personality Disorders Discussion > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Make the News Come to you! FREE email newsletters sent directly to >your in-box USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! >http://clickhere./click/316 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Up With People! Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi - I'm not all here today-feeling a little distracted and out of sorts. I missed a few of your comments. Sometimes I wonder if I don't have ADD or something-lack of concentration on a task (?). Charlie felt the same way about my perp, dad and brother-and my brother's friends...I have probably put it into an understanding like Rose seems to have done. Basically, it's over, and I'm left to deal with the damage to myself for myself. The other thing is I have never been to the Grand Canyon! There ARE so many other places!!! > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:21:42 -0600 > >Hi ; > >The psychologist told me when I was strong enough those lost >memories would come back by themselves. > >She also cautioned me against any methods designed to force >them to the surface for two reasons. First the forced out memories >are unreliable and often not true at all. Second if they were true >they might overwhelm my defenses with all kinds of nasty results >possible > >When Rose and I got married and up till a couple of years ago her >abuser was still alive. I thought that oversight ought to be >corrected and at one point thought of doing just that > >But Rose didn't need an " Avenging Angel " , she needed me as her >husband. She settled things as best she could, and I finally >realized it wasn't my job description to interfere. I can be there to >help with the new feelings, I could do nothing constructive about >the old. > >I think knowing what I know, I'd go to The Grand Canyon instead. >Just my 2 cents. > >I'm with you, there's a time to let sleeping dogs lie. At some future >time you might want to kick 'em a little and wake them up, but >that's your choice alone. > >Rose and I are both missing years in our childhood memories. It >doesn't prevent us from having a good time > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FREE email Newsletters delivered right to your in-box. >CNET, USAToday, RollingStone, and more… >Click Here Now! http://clickhere./click/314 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi Pete, This guy was banned from the AA club, but, as you said, he couldn't be banned from meeting attendance. He decided to move to North Carolina when this stuff was exposed with his daughter (who he probably molested when she was little). I think he eventually plead guilty to the charges but I've not heard anything of him since. Jan Re: : Bad Taste of AA >> >> >> At 06:50 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: >> <snip> >> >>It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they >> >>are abused but not when they abuse others. >> >> I read this sentence before and it struck a chord and I couldn't think why. >> Now that I read it again I know what it is. The REASON those people are >> more likely to make amends when THEY are abused than when they abuse others >> is that they feel more guilty when they are abused than they do when they >> abuse others. This sounds insane, and it is. But that is where a >> self-undermining self-betraying 12 step program can take you. >> >> > The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes >> >attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " >> >easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " >> <snip> >> > Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher >> >standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of >> >the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal >> >is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> <snip> >> >> I think the reason why I felt so uncomfortable around people who were >> congratulating themselves for staying sober (or clean) and who were still >> hurting others in some way, usually newcomers, is obvious to me now. I felt >> uncomfortable because the 12 step programs seemed to be about helping >> rotten, abusive human beings to take advantage of vulnerable people and yet >> still feel comfortable with themselves whilst not changing or becoming >> better people, but simply giving them a bullshit language, with programmy >> things to say in meetings about " I'm still only human " , " I'm still no >> angel " (laughter from knowing members, very funny, ha ha). And of course it >> is the people who are abused by such predatory members who are verbally >> attacked for daring to complain about their treatment by people with more >> " time " , and are told to take thier inventories, and pray to have *their* >> character defects removed. >> >> Joe Berenbaum >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- >> >> www. - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications >> >> >> > >Pete Watts > >Owner >PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm >PD Personality Disorders Discussion > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Make the News Come to you! FREE email newsletters sent directly to >your in-box USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! >http://clickhere./click/316 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi Kathy; Probably the reason that your husband acted so cavalierly about marriage dates back to the AA founders. They were upper crust new england and many marriages from those families were arranged by the parents. Many of these men had a mistress quite openly. Take FDR for instance. He had a mistress from before he was president and actually died at her home. Though this behavior is no longer acceptable in this country, anyone who lives by 1930 new england ethics could be led to think it's ok. Kathy: Don't ever take anything I say as holy writ. These are merely my observations filtered through my experiences and for you they could be wrong as two left shoes. I've worked as a law clerk in the free world and as a lawyer in prison. I know how stressfull in can be. My first trial had three plaintiff's in a suit against the state. It was three separate cases joined by the US Magistrate. To add to it, it was another guys case. A guy came to my cell and dropped three shipping boxes of Depos, interrogatorries etc on the floor on monday night and said we got to trial Thursday! I had heard nothing of the case. The Court gave me a week to get up to speed, interview everyone etc. I had a regular job and of course a convict's mobility is very limited. None The Less we won two and lost the other. The plaintiff I lost for was satisfied with the loss when he read the court's opinion and read the case law. I had told him going in he should probably withdraw it, but he said he wanted to go ahead having spent two years getting that far. I understood that in spades. One of the winners got a parole five years later and killed two people. Oh the suit I was involved in had nothing to do with him getting out. It was about the medical system in prison. I had an individual suit going and I settled it out of court, about two years after I was out. After I was out I had no standing to act as counsel so I got a Law Professor who is a friend appointed to my case. He is lead public defender in Phoenix AZ now. He was a Professor at Drake University back then. Point is, the law is stressfull and I know those stresses. Most folks who are drawn to the law are critical thinkers. We are also looking for the solid structure and the fact that the rules don't change at someones whim. The same thing that turns us away from AA draws us to the law. I was so fascinated by the law that I used to read cases that had nada to do with what I was working on. Old 1880 Iowa Reports or NW reporter. The ones where " The sheriff followed the tracks of wagon to...... " and etc. My absolute favorites are " Law, Language and ethics " A three book set. In volume two is a verbatim transcript of the arguments by Clarence Darrow in Leopold and Loeb v State of Illinois. The only thing at issue was sentencing. The state wanted the death penalty, they didn't get it. The other is a US Supreme Court decision from circa 1946. The title varies, but is usually " In Re: The Matter of Yamashita. The other title is " Yamashita v Styer. See especially, The Dissent of Justice . It's a case where the Supreme Court copped out and tells them so in no uncertain terms. They hanged General Yamashita, without one shred of evidence against him. Not one witness appeared against the man. He was tried by Courts Martial and The Supreme Court simply denied it had jurisdiction, thus not reviewing at all. Yamashita was the commanding General of Japanese forces in The ines in WWII. Subject change. I don't believe Rex bought into AA at all, but I did. He needed no deprogramming, because he sees black and whit and no greys. He's the part of me that believe's Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong and words don't change that! He only went along with the law, because he could buy into " Situations alter cases " When Rex learned that a man I'd gotten out of prison, killed a man in a car jacking eight months later, he let me know about it! He was finally placated by the fact the guy would have been out in three more years anyway, due to sentence expiration. The law will make you ponder at times and will cause sleepless nights. It also has some big rewards. Sometime I'll tell you Charlie's story, in prison almost continually from age 8 to 26 and had never comitted a crime. A total breakdown in the CJ system. I still hear from him now and then, though I obtained his release way back in 1980. As you can tell, my interest in the law never died, time just passed me by. I had no idea I had ptsd when I was working in the law. I had only a vague idea of what it was and that was related to combat vetrans. You know you have it. It's an advantage, but I don't know how big an advantage. Sometimes I think my body failing physically is a result of the ptsd. Of course I have no proof of that, but it has that feel. Get rid of one symptom, get another. One month after I was out of therapy, I had my first angina attack. The angieogram revealed no 100% good arteries in the heart. They bypassed four that were above 90% blocked. I survived the surgery, but the surgeon screwed up. He should have postponed the surgery and got my hemoglobin level up, it was way too low for surgery, but he forgot to look at the pre surgical blood work and I guess no one else did either. I was probably certifiable from low brain oxygen for the first month after the surgery. The paranoia was terrible. I don't think I'll ever forget that feeling. Fear to the tenth was the feeling. One thing certain, ptsd is tricky stuff and can maifest itself in many ways. Failure at the minute of success seems the common denominator.. Or as I call it " The ability to snatch failure out of the jaws of victory " Here's hoping, knowledge, support and therapy will pull you through, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi ; The psychologist told me when I was strong enough those lost memories would come back by themselves. She also cautioned me against any methods designed to force them to the surface for two reasons. First the forced out memories are unreliable and often not true at all. Second if they were true they might overwhelm my defenses with all kinds of nasty results possible When Rose and I got married and up till a couple of years ago her abuser was still alive. I thought that oversight ought to be corrected and at one point thought of doing just that But Rose didn't need an " Avenging Angel " , she needed me as her husband. She settled things as best she could, and I finally realized it wasn't my job description to interfere. I can be there to help with the new feelings, I could do nothing constructive about the old. I think knowing what I know, I'd go to The Grand Canyon instead. Just my 2 cents. I'm with you, there's a time to let sleeping dogs lie. At some future time you might want to kick 'em a little and wake them up, but that's your choice alone. Rose and I are both missing years in our childhood memories. It doesn't prevent us from having a good time ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi , I think I told you about facing the guy that molested me. It was in a 5-hour deposition in which he was sitting right next to his lawyer, and the guy would not even raise his head. That was in 1993. The fact that he couldn't look at anyone validated enough for me to know it was true, and that it was him, even though he lied thoughout the suit. I SAW better. I also saw that he had lived a miserable life, and it wasn't getting any better! During that time, I toyed with the possibility of getting hypnotized. I changed my mind. I figure that if I'm strong enough to know, I'll remember all on my own. I don't want to know anymore than I do, and haven't since that time. As a result of our closeness, Charlie can sense and understand what I am feeling, long before I realize it, most of the time. I have the tendency to ignore emotions and put them on a shelf. I'm sure you can understand this concept. It's one of my biggest blocks, but it's a defense mechanism I put into place long ago to protect myself. I don't need it anymore, and I need to get rid of it. So, in a sense, Charlie shows me where the dragons are. I fight them when I can. It is mostly in the form of set behaviors and thought processes I need to change. Sounds like you're there with Rose. It is so nice after all these years to have someone really " there " . And I know Rose must be so grateful! Charlie and I play, too. I have done a lot of things that I wouldn't have had I not met him. I am missing chunks out of my childhood, too, and play when I can remember to be gentle with myself. It's not often enough, though. I need to be reminded! Thanks! wrote: Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4667 > Hi ; > > The psychologist told me when I was strong enough those lost > memories would come back by themselves. > > She also cautioned me against any methods designed to force > them to the surface for two reasons. First the forced out memories > are unreliable and often not true at all. Second if they were true > they might overwhelm my defenses with all kinds of nasty results > possible > > When Rose and I got married and up till a couple of years ago her > abuser was still alive. I thought that oversight ought to be > corrected and at one point thought of doing just that > > But Rose didn't need an " Avenging Angel " , she needed me as her > husband. She settled things as best she could, and I finally > realized it wasn't my job description to interfere. I can be there to > help with the new feelings, I could do nothing constructive about > the old. > > I think knowing what I know, I'd go to The Grand Canyon instead. > Just my 2 cents. > > I'm with you, there's a time to let sleeping dogs lie. At some future > time you might want to kick 'em a little and wake them up, but > that's your choice alone. > > Rose and I are both missing years in our childhood memories. It > doesn't prevent us from having a good time > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi Kathy; For our own good Rose and I participate, with one exception, in different groups. One we are both subscribed to and I was reading a post she had sent to an abuse victim. There in all caps was, Do you realize fully how strong you are? All of us who have survived abuse are very strong. The survival tools we used, may need changing after the source of the abuse is gone, but we can do that. That first sentence is a littany for me. So much so I forget to mention it to others. I need to reaffirm that strength often. Sometimes just a recap of what I've already been through, is enough to change my attitude toward whatever the current problem happens to be. That's not to say I always win out in the current problem, but it helps me put best foot forward so to speak. Winning half, beats the devil out of losing them all. Just saw it and thought I'd pass it on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi Jim; Your response hardly surprises me. Sounds like an AA sponsor to me. Mine used to bounce me with words like that. The " Attack Dog " style you are using is not impressive, sounds like your angry with someone. Perhaps you need to talk with your sponsor and do a new fourth step. Maybe a meeting would be helpful. " How am I doin'? Most of us left AA because of abusive, abrasive folks like yourself. You aren't likely to scare anyone here. Were out of your league and you are out of your depth. The battle of wits and wills you are begging for, I would win. However it would serve no purpose and you would just be angrier. You can make yourself a winner, without having to attempt to pull someone else down. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Hi ; I just mentioned the grand canyon, because you said you were going to ABQ, I took that to be New Mexico(Long time since I've flown anything, they took my lisence) Therefore not all that far from The Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was just the first neat thing in the area, that I could think of. I've only seen it from the air, but it sure is big and colorful. I have been to The Royal Gorge, Carlsbad Caverns and old Leadville and some of the old silver and Gold mines. I lived in Mesa, Tempe and Apache Junction, Arizona, in the mid 80's. I was in decent physical shape then, all things considered, so I rode a ten speed bike all over, until I finally got ran over and got both legs crushed. Recovered from that too. Actually I got ran over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser on a trailer. It was new and the guy didn't realize his boat was wider than his pickup. I was against the median with no place to go and it sucked me under. It was a while before I was riding full time again. I tried it ten days after the accident, got to the store and couldn't get back. Sat at a bus stop bench in the shade for a couple of hours and then made it back in two jumps. I had to get stuff working though. At my age it's use it or lose it, and I wasn't ready to lose it just yet 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 ; I find little in your shares and less in your biography to suggest that you are a " winner " by the definition we have all heard oft-repeated in the AA cult, the axiom " Hang Around The Winners. " I have spent much time in hard-time prisons; I am unimpressed by cons or jailhouse lawyers... Peace... Jim K... http://www.churchofgodanonymous.org This website changed my life... Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Hi Kathy; > >Probably the reason that your husband acted so cavalierly about >marriage dates back to the AA founders. They were upper crust >new england and many marriages from those families were >arranged by the parents. > >Many of these men had a mistress quite openly. Take FDR for >instance. He had a mistress from before he was president and >actually died at her home. > >Though this behavior is no longer acceptable in this country, >anyone who lives by 1930 new england ethics could be led to think >it's ok. > >Kathy: Don't ever take anything I say as holy writ. These are >merely my observations filtered through my experiences and for >you they could be wrong as two left shoes. > >I've worked as a law clerk in the free world and as a lawyer in >prison. I know how stressfull in can be. My first trial had three >plaintiff's in a suit against the state. It was three separate cases >joined by the US Magistrate. To add to it, it was another guys >case. A guy came to my cell and dropped three shipping boxes of >Depos, interrogatorries etc on the floor on monday night and said >we got to trial Thursday! I had heard nothing of the case. The >Court gave me a week to get up to speed, interview everyone etc. I >had a regular job and of course a convict's mobility is very limited. > >None The Less we won two and lost the other. The plaintiff I lost >for was satisfied with the loss when he read the court's opinion and >read the case law. I had told him going in he should probably >withdraw it, but he said he wanted to go ahead having spent two >years getting that far. I understood that in spades. > >One of the winners got a parole five years later and killed two >people. Oh the suit I was involved in had nothing to do with him >getting out. It was about the medical system in prison. I had an >individual suit going and I settled it out of court, about two years >after I was out. After I was out I had no standing to act as counsel >so I got a Law Professor who is a friend appointed to my case. He >is lead public defender in Phoenix AZ now. He was a Professor at >Drake University back then. > >Point is, the law is stressfull and I know those stresses. Most >folks who are drawn to the law are critical thinkers. We are also >looking for the solid structure and the fact that the rules don't >change at someones whim. The same thing that turns us away >from AA draws us to the law. > >I was so fascinated by the law that I used to read cases that had >nada to do with what I was working on. Old 1880 Iowa Reports or >NW reporter. The ones where " The sheriff followed the tracks of > wagon to...... " and etc. > >My absolute favorites are " Law, Language and ethics " A three >book set. In volume two is a verbatim transcript of the arguments >by Clarence Darrow in Leopold and Loeb v State of Illinois. The >only thing at issue was sentencing. The state wanted the death >penalty, they didn't get it. > >The other is a US Supreme Court decision from circa 1946. The >title varies, but is usually " In Re: The Matter of Yamashita. The >other title is " Yamashita v Styer. See especially, The Dissent of >Justice . > >It's a case where the Supreme Court copped out and tells >them so in no uncertain terms. They hanged General Yamashita, >without one shred of evidence against him. Not one witness >appeared against the man. He was tried by Courts Martial and The >Supreme Court simply denied it had jurisdiction, thus not reviewing >at all. Yamashita was the commanding General of Japanese >forces in The ines in WWII. > >Subject change. I don't believe Rex bought into AA at all, but I did. > He needed no deprogramming, because he sees black and whit >and no greys. He's the part of me that believe's Right is Right and >Wrong is Wrong and words don't change that! He only went along >with the law, because he could buy into " Situations alter cases " > >When Rex learned that a man I'd gotten out of prison, killed a man >in a car jacking eight months later, he let me know about it! He >was finally placated by the fact the guy would have been out in >three more years anyway, due to sentence expiration. > >The law will make you ponder at times and will cause sleepless >nights. It also has some big rewards. Sometime I'll tell you >Charlie's story, in prison almost continually from age 8 to 26 and >had never comitted a crime. A total breakdown in the CJ system. >I still hear from him now and then, though I obtained his release >way back in 1980. > >As you can tell, my interest in the law never died, time just passed >me by. > >I had no idea I had ptsd when I was working in the law. I had only >a vague idea of what it was and that was related to combat vetrans. > >You know you have it. It's an advantage, but I don't know how big >an advantage. Sometimes I think my body failing physically is a >result of the ptsd. Of course I have no proof of that, but it has that >feel. Get rid of one symptom, get another. One month after I was >out of therapy, I had my first angina attack. The angieogram >revealed no 100% good arteries in the heart. They bypassed four >that were above 90% blocked. I survived the surgery, but the >surgeon screwed up. He should have postponed the surgery and >got my hemoglobin level up, it was way too low for surgery, but he >forgot to look at the pre surgical blood work and I guess no one >else did either. I was probably certifiable from low brain oxygen for >the first month after the surgery. The paranoia was terrible. I don't >think I'll ever forget that feeling. Fear to the tenth was the feeling. > >One thing certain, ptsd is tricky stuff and can maifest itself in many >ways. Failure at the minute of success seems the common >denominator.. Or as I call it " The ability to snatch failure out of the >jaws of victory " > >Here's hoping, knowledge, support and therapy will pull you through, > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups now offers FREE email newsletters! >Women.com, RollingStone, Travelocity, and more… >Sign-up Now! http://clickhere./click/315 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 Interesting, then they are violating their own Third Tradition. I have heard of ppl not being let into meeting without ties, but I dont know if its an urban legend. Of course, the 3rd Tradition was never meant seriously in the first place; wilson's own writing abt it in the T & T makes that perfectly clear when an atheist called them on it when they were going to ice him. Ppl alaso get iced from 12-step listervs. they will se the rationalziation tat they arent being baned from AA, just that particular group, which of course means they are just pushing the problem onto somebody else. AAs will say theyre damned if they do or damned if they dont, but the point is, they ought to address these issues and work out what the consequences of their policies are; and come up with a system to deal with them. instead they are brushed under the carpet. Pete > Regarading banning AAs, an AA Group may ban someone ( I have seen it ). Of > course that it only one meeting " s move...the banned person may simply pick > another meeting > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 Hi , folks , I dont know what youre gotting to hit me with next! As well as aging out of violence, ppl actually age out of compulsive drinking and drugging to. Peele writes abt this. not everybody does of course, but many do, yet XA and its supporters would have us believe that using always get worse and without them and God we are always doomed to jails, institutions and death. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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