Law enforcement blood draw

[Guest guest]

I know this will be an old issue revisited, however I did a poor job of

keeping up with all the info. from the time before. I am looking for the

law/rule in regard to EMS personnel drawing blood at the law

enforcement/JP's request. I would also be interested in other's policy

for dealing with this matter.

A second topic revisited! How does your department handle the situation

where a injured person has been placed in custody and law enforcement

refuses to allow medical treatment? The situation that has affected us

is an intoxicated driver of a rollover with other occupants suffering

major injury.

Feel free to respond to my e-mail address: bwsgjr@...

Director

Seminole EMS

Seminole, Texas

[Guest guest]

The exclusion of EMS personnel was included specifically to prevent law

enforcement officers from delaying treatment and transport by demanding that

they draw blood on the scene. It also was put there so that EMS people

would not be spending the majority of their lives waiting to testify in

court. It has nothing to do with " competence " to draw blood.

Hope this helps clarify.

Gene

[Guest guest]

This is a matter of education and needs to be addressed by the director of

EMS with the chief law enforcement manager involved. The law enforcement

people are subjecting themselves to personal liability and public liability

if they refuse to allow treatment and damages result. You should, of course,

document the bejabbers out of the situation and politely explain the

situation to the cop, asking that he sign the refusal for his prisoner. That

usually gets their attention. But don't get into a fight with them on scene.

You can't win. They've got the gun, even if there are no brains to go with

it.

I would avoid personal confrontations with Troopers and cops over this. That

will only make enemies. Your medical director probably ought to get

involved. Amazing how much clout a physician has. His call to the County

Attorney or City Attorney will probably cure the problem quickly. If not,

then you'll have to decide how much you want to get personally involved. You

can always file a personal complaint with the proper authority, but if you

have to work with these people it's dangerous. Better to let the Chiefs

battle it out. That's where the argument should be resolved.

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

[Guest guest]

The following can be found in the Transportation Code regarding specimens

taken after DWI or BWI or DUI by a minor:

Sec. 724.017. Blood Specimen.

(a) Only a physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered

professional nurse, or licensed vocational nurse may take a blood

specimen at the request or order of a peace officer under this

chapter. The blood specimen must be taken in a sanitary place.

( The person who takes the blood specimen under this chapter,

or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

for damages arising from the request or order of the peace

officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical

procedures. This subsection does not relieve a person from

liability for negligence in the taking of a blood specimen.

© In this section, " qualified technician " does not include

emergency medical services personnel.

Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

" C " Shift EMS Coordinator

Fire Department

[Guest guest]

Randy:

Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion that " qualified

technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of definitions in

another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or Attorney

General's ruling that does?

Dave

Re: Law enforcement blood draw

> The following can be found in the Transportation Code regarding specimens

> taken after DWI or BWI or DUI by a minor:

>

> Sec. 724.017. Blood Specimen.

>

> (a) Only a physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered

> professional nurse, or licensed vocational nurse may take a blood

> specimen at the request or order of a peace officer under this

> chapter. The blood specimen must be taken in a sanitary place.

>

> ( The person who takes the blood specimen under this chapter,

> or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

> for damages arising from the request or order of the peace

> officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

> the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical

> procedures. This subsection does not relieve a person from

> liability for negligence in the taking of a blood specimen.

>

> © In this section, " qualified technician " does not include

> emergency medical services personnel.

>

> Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

> " C " Shift EMS Coordinator

> Fire Department

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think Randy expressed his personal opinion or conclusion. He was

simply quoting what the code says.

Maxine

In a message dated 6/2/00 4:26:49 PM Central Daylight Time,

d.jackson@... writes:

<< Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion that " qualified

technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of definitions in

another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or Attorney

General's ruling that does? >>

[Guest guest]

Mr. ,

Wow, good questions. Hard ones to answer. All I can say is, cover yourself

most carefully with your documentation if the officer is adamant (sp) about

the patient not going to the hospital. I would be hesitant to try to take a

person 'in custody' away from a man with a badge and a gun. I am fairly

certain that is a crime of some sort. I would then go to the officers boss

and have words to prevent the problem from happening again.

As for drawing blood (I am assuming for legal blood alcohol) from a patient,

if the patient agrees and you have a protocol:

1> Get the patient to SIGN a release allowing you to draw the blood,

NOTE: If the patient refuses, get a copy of the WRITTEN court order for your

records.

2> Draw three (3) grey top tubes (or whatever your receiving lab uses),

Note: Use betadine to prep the site, not alcohol.

3> Label the blood tubes with patient name, SSN, DOB, your name, time and

date drawn, and give them only to a> a police officer; b> the lab. DO NOT

allow ANY other person to even touch the tubes. This a chain of evidence

issue. The fewer people who touch the blood, the fewer that have to go to

court. Note: be ready to go to court.

4> MAKE them recieving person give you a receipt for the blood,

5> doccument, Document, DOCUMENT.

6> Notify your medical director (or other appropriate superior) IMMEDIATELY

after doing this.

Webb, LP

FLW EMS, MO

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[Guest guest]

I don't see Randy making conclusions, I only saw a point of law, of which

c) made the EMS point. I think Mr. Gandy already explained this...

Mike

Re: Law enforcement blood draw

Randy:

Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion that

" qualified

technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of

definitions in

another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or

Attorney

General's ruling that does?

Dave

Re: Law enforcement blood draw

> The following can be found in the Transportation Code regarding

specimens

> taken after DWI or BWI or DUI by a minor:

>

> Sec. 724.017. Blood Specimen.

>

> (a) Only a physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered

> professional nurse, or licensed vocational nurse may take a blood

> specimen at the request or order of a peace officer under this

> chapter. The blood specimen must be taken in a sanitary place.

>

> ( The person who takes the blood specimen under this chapter,

> or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

> for damages arising from the request or order of the peace

> officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

> the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical

> procedures. This subsection does not relieve a person from

> liability for negligence in the taking of a blood specimen.

>

> © In this section, " qualified technician " does not include

> emergency medical services personnel.

>

> Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

> " C " Shift EMS Coordinator

> Fire Department

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Sorry yall- next time I'll make sure to state that I am merely quoting Law.

OPINION FORTHCOMING:

Consider thyself warned!! hehe

If I interpret the Alcoholic Beverage Code, EMS personnel are specifically

EXCLUDED as being able (not the same as qualified) to perform these blood

draws. If you are asked by a trooper or JP, you might explain this and

state this as a possible flaw in the case, which might cause them to lose

the case! Generally, Troops are REAL interested in knowing what might hurt

their cases.

Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

EMS Coordinator, C-Shift

Fire Department

[Guest guest]

Just my two cents.

Texas does not allow for EMS personell to obtain a blood sample from anyone

in regard to use as evidence in any alcohol related accident. This includes

obtaining consent from the person.

On the other hand in Sept. 1999 a new law allows for the Justice of the Peace

( just the JP ) to request fro a Paramedic to obtain blood samples from

decesed victims of traffic accidents.

Mike Shown

FF/EMT-P

Res. Deputy Sheriff

[Guest guest]

see hmm how do i say this nicely??? hypothetically speaking...when i was on

scene and had a similar incident of drunk person who seemed ok but other

patient was not, i got through the red tape by stating the " drunk " one was

not a reliable source to say that he was ok....hospitals always did our

draws... does this help or make it more cloudy??

amy

[Guest guest]

sorry it was in california...if this is in response to what i wrote...

[Guest guest]

Could you please provide the citation for that authority (for my records).

Thanks!

Re: Law enforcement blood draw

Just my two cents.

Texas does not allow for EMS personell to obtain a blood sample from anyone

in regard to use as evidence in any alcohol related accident. This includes

obtaining consent from the person.

On the other hand in Sept. 1999 a new law allows for the Justice of the

Peace

( just the JP ) to request fro a Paramedic to obtain blood samples from

decesed victims of traffic accidents.

Mike Shown

FF/EMT-P

Res. Deputy Sheriff

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[Guest guest]

The law on Paramedic obtaining a blood sample at the scene of a fatality

traffic accident from a victim that may have died as a result of DWI is

fairly new.

It is located in the Code of Criminal Procedure (CCP) 49.10 (j).

Mike

[Guest guest]

Ok so I work midnights, but doesnt this say that it is in regards to DWI's

etc in reguards to a MINOR??? So what about adults??? Or am I loster than

usual?

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[Guest guest]

I do not agree with what happened, but I take offense to the statement that

cops have no brains. I am also a police dispatcher and my best friends are

officers as well as my boyfriend. Its generalizations like that, that cause

conflict between the two fields! And dont worry, I get on them when they

stereotype medics and EMS too!

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Maxine. I didn't realize the part about EMS personnel being excluded

was a quote. Gandy's explanation also helps put the whole thing into

perspective.

Dave

Re: Law enforcement blood draw

> I don't think Randy expressed his personal opinion or conclusion. He was

> simply quoting what the code says.

>

> Maxine

>

> In a message dated 6/2/00 4:26:49 PM Central Daylight Time,

> d.jackson@... writes:

>

> << Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion that

" qualified

> technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of definitions

in

> another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or Attorney

> General's ruling that does? >>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Hey, I didn't mean to imply that ALL cops have no brains, just the one that

wouldn't allow EMS to treat his prisoner.

Gene

[Guest guest]

Ok sorry bout that...mistook your wording :-) guess you could say that I'm

a little protective LOL

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[Guest guest]

Ah, you don't have to defend us, we are used to the

insults, we can take it.

Moseley Licensed Paramedic

Police Officer Cleburne PD

--- Midnight Medic wrote:

> I do not agree with what happened, but I take

> offense to the statement that

> cops have no brains. I am also a police dispatcher

> and my best friends are

> officers as well as my boyfriend. Its

> generalizations like that, that cause

> conflict between the two fields! And dont worry, I

> get on them when they

> stereotype medics and EMS too!

>

________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> http://www.hotmail.com

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

According to Texas Code of Criminal Procedure now allows a JP to

request a paramedic to draw blood from a patient who is deceased at a

vehicle accident when alcohol is involved. The statute can be found

at http://capitol.tlc.state.us/statutes/codes/CPOOOO51.html. Also

for you information at the web site of the Texas Ambulance Assocition

a recommended form in available for you to down load for a JP to

sign. All information and advisement is from legal counsel.

> Randy:

>

> Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion

that " qualified

> technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of

definitions in

> another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or

Attorney

> General's ruling that does?

>

> Dave

> Re: Law enforcement blood draw

>

>

> > The following can be found in the Transportation Code regarding

specimens

> > taken after DWI or BWI or DUI by a minor:

> >

> > Sec. 724.017. Blood Specimen.

> >

> > (a) Only a physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered

> > professional nurse, or licensed vocational nurse may take a blood

> > specimen at the request or order of a peace officer under this

> > chapter. The blood specimen must be taken in a sanitary place.

> >

> > ( The person who takes the blood specimen under this chapter,

> > or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

> > for damages arising from the request or order of the peace

> > officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

> > the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical

> > procedures. This subsection does not relieve a person from

> > liability for negligence in the taking of a blood specimen.

> >

> > © In this section, " qualified technician " does not include

> > emergency medical services personnel.

> >

> > Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

> > " C " Shift EMS Coordinator

> > Fire Department

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> > http://click./1/4633/7/_/4981/_/959978945/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

According to Texas Code of Criminal Procedure now allows a JP to

request a paramedic to draw blood from a patient who is deceased at a

vehicle accident when alcohol is involved. The statute can be found

at http://capitol.tlc.state.us/statutes/codes/CPOOOO51.html. Also

for you information at the web site of the Texas Ambulance Assocition

a recommended form in available for you to down load for a JP to

sign. All information and advisement is from legal counsel.

> Randy:

>

> Purely out of curiosity, on what do you base the conclusion

that " qualified

> technician " does not include EMS personnel. Is there a set of

definitions in

> another section that clarifies this or is there some case law or

Attorney

> General's ruling that does?

>

> Dave

> Re: Law enforcement blood draw

>

>

> > The following can be found in the Transportation Code regarding

specimens

> > taken after DWI or BWI or DUI by a minor:

> >

> > Sec. 724.017. Blood Specimen.

> >

> > (a) Only a physician, qualified technician, chemist, registered

> > professional nurse, or licensed vocational nurse may take a blood

> > specimen at the request or order of a peace officer under this

> > chapter. The blood specimen must be taken in a sanitary place.

> >

> > ( The person who takes the blood specimen under this chapter,

> > or the hospital where the blood specimen is taken, is not liable

> > for damages arising from the request or order of the peace

> > officer to take the blood specimen as provided by this chapter if

> > the blood specimen was taken according to recognized medical

> > procedures. This subsection does not relieve a person from

> > liability for negligence in the taking of a blood specimen.

> >

> > © In this section, " qualified technician " does not include

> > emergency medical services personnel.

> >

> > Randy Pitts FF/NREMT-P

> > " C " Shift EMS Coordinator

> > Fire Department

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> > http://click./1/4633/7/_/4981/_/959978945/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> >

> >

> >