No Subject

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/11/1998 12:22:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pauldiener@... writes:

> Greetings All. This is my first posting. First, regarding the recent

> controversy over 'lurkers,' I would vote for allowing free access to the

> degree that this is possible, and excepting those individuals who might

abuse

> their privileges by threatening, spamming, being needlessly vulgar, etc. My

> reason is that I believe 12-Steppers need to be exposed to more honest and

> searching philosophies of " alcoholism " and " addiction " (which I view as

> really merely varieties or symptoms of " troubled " behavior). If people who

> have discovered the truth about the 12-step cult are unwilling to discuss

the

> matter with those who have been recently railroaded into the scam, then to

> whom CAN they turn? I wouldn't even give up on the " true believers " ; there

> is hope for everybody. On another matter, I do find it a bit strange to

read

> postings by folks who have abandoned the 12-step cult, and who speakd about

"

> drinking again " as a rite of passage back to normality. My own background

> involves some serious social adjustment difficulties (I was a lower class

> student in the 60s, who tried BOTH to follow my very radical political

vision,

> AND succeed as an academic social scientist - can't be done). Anyway, part

> of my attempt to cope with my own difficulties involved abusing alcohol,

and,

> of course, I got pushed into AA. It took me awhile to see thru the cult (

> cults prey on the vulnerable, after all, and frequently are very enticing).

> Yet, even 15 years after dumping AA, which I believe is both despicable and

> dangerous, I remain a teetotaler. I have no doubt I could drink moderately.

> But I have chosen not to. I really don't see alcohol and AA as related at

> all, except that AA USES alcohol probelms in order to gain entry into

people'

> s lives. Anyway, drinking WITHIN AA is very common. Finally, one last

point.

> For some years, I have been doing research on AA and its history. I plan

a

> book, eventually, of political and cultural interpretation of the 12-Step

> phenomenon. I would be interested to know if anyone else is work!

> ing on similar materials. Ciao.

Hi ,

Good to hear you, and welcome to the list. I, myself, do not think that I

could moderate my drinking or drugging, but I don't begrudge those that can. I

figure we each find our own way of dealing with things. I have a cousin that

who does very well at having one night a week designated for having a six pack

maybe. He has done this for many years now after having abstained completely

for a period of time. This seems to work for him...I don't foresee me trying

this route; I am happy with my life the way it is, but it does work for him,

and I think that's great.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi....

Take Care,

Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/12/1998 4:04:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pauldiener@... writes:

> Bette - I think if someone is working as a paid drug and alcohol counselor,

> they are, in effect, agents of propaganda. The multibillion dollar per

year

> " treatment " system is based upon force and coercion, and operates at the

will

> of right-wing government officials and big corporate bosses. The message

> being pushed is " powerlessness " for common people, while the leaders of the

> government, the war on drugs, etc, are put forward as the worldly agents of

> the " higher power. "

I have no problem with what you say here. I agree.

I, personally, see a great deal of difference between

> a troubled person who gets bamboozled by the 12-Step cult, and a paid

> government-corporate propaganda agent.

Yes there is a difference. Nonetheless, I think that when someone has done

nothing to get booted then they shouldn't be booted. If he wants to

propagandize on the list, then kick him off....but he has not done that.

I believe a paid drug counselor is

> being hypocritical when he or she puts on a front as a " reasonable " and

" open-

> minded " individual. Remember, these paid agents " treat " persons who are

> into their facilities, they sign tally sheets for probation officers, they

> push repulsive ideas upon vulnerable and hurt souls. Hence, I see hypocrisy

> when a meek and humble mien is presented. Please don't think I am being

> pompous by recommending a book, but you might find PSYCHOTHERAPY IN THE

THIRD

> REICH, BY Geoffrey Cocks, 1985, Oxford Press, of interest. What is so

> surprising in this detailed historical study is how " nice " many of the

German

> therapists were, how " reasonable " their ideas seemed, and how, often they

> claimed to be really interested in " helping " their patients. Of course,

> greed, careerism, and self-promotion, etc, were central motives. Their was

> also loyalty to the fascist cult. But, really, the book paints a chilling

> picture of " reasonable " German professionals running a " therapy system "

which

> functioned to promote the fascist vision - a vision essentially identical to

> the one being pushed in America's current crusade against " addiction. "

Anyway,

> your question was " where is the hypocrisy. " In reply, I believe anyone who

> works as a professional in the drug war effort is being hypocritical when

> they claim to be " reasonable. " Eichman, and even Mengele, after all, were !

> described by those who knew them as unexceptional, intelligent, reasonable,

> often even charming. People who seem reasonable and nice can do terrible

> things. I believe drug " counselors " do terrible things. And I think they

> know perfectly well they do terrible things. For money.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------

You know it is funny how the most extreme and offensive happening in human

history is used everytime someone wants to make a point. I have seen this done

for every conceivable situation possible, I think. The real kicker, and I

mailed it to Ken at the time, because it surprised me so, was when a heated

discussion in rec.gardens turned to the " hitler " argument. Don't mean to side

track the discussion here....but it is my rule not to argue turn discussion in

this direction...Sorry.

Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 12:47 PM 11/15/98 -0800, lhl@... wrote:

>Lowell Striker in the book " Mind Bending " formulated a list of attributes

>of a cult. I cant find the book at any of the local libraries. Does anyone

>have it?

>Thanks,

>Larry

I don't have it, but I know where to look on the net for most any out-

of-print book, a book meta-search engine at <http://www.bookfinder.com>.

Here's a description from a bookseller listed on abebooks.com that I just

found

with <http://www.bookfinder.com>:

STREIKER,

LOWELL D

MIND BENDING: Brinwashing, Cults

and Deprogramming in the 80's

-----

My Delete key macro is expanding...

http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Did my post make it through? I've been lurking here a long time and have

> decided to come out. Greetings everyone.

> Larry

>

Welcome, Larry.

What's happening?

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

I taught Kindergarten for three years and was an aide in kindergarten for

two years before that. I am now a full time wife

[Guest guest]

Dear Ladies,

I too shall be gone for the rest of the week. I have a conference for

work in Orlando, FL.

, I live right across the bay from you in Clearwater...small

world!

Well I hope you all have a smooth and wonderful week. I will be pulling

for you Krista. Talk to you all next week. <g> nan

[Guest guest]

This is getting spooky...I teach special ed. preschoolers and was born

and raised in Florida. You don't think we've found the cure to

ectopics, do you??? --Move and quit teaching--Just kidding

But it is funny how many characteristics we all share. I find that kind

of stuff facinating. Pam and I share the same wedding anniversary to

the day and year

( I didnt ask about the time of day)

Who knows maybe one of us will find their long lost sibling or

something. Stranger things have happened...

[Guest guest]

:

My husband works in Clearwater.

[Guest guest]

Born and raised in Florida here also Lived here all but three years of

my life and two of those were as an adult.

[Guest guest]

I THOUGHT I WOULD JUMP IN ON THIS ONE!! I TOO WAS BORN IN

FLORIDA.....JACKSONVILLE, ON THE NAVY BASE THERE. SHORTLY AFTER WE MOVED

ALL AROUND THE WORLD...MY DAD WAS A NVY PIOLET FOR 26 YEARS.........HOUSTON

TEXAS IS WHERE I CALL HOME, BEEN HERE FOR 19 YEARS!!

IS ANYONE ELSE FROM TEXAS?

STACEY McCoy

P.S.. didn't notice the caps until I was halfway through. I think caps mean

your yelling, right? sorry I'm not just too lazy to retype

Re: No Subject

>Born and raised in Florida here also Lived here all but three years of

>my life and two of those were as an adult.

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>-- /vote?listname=ectopicpregnancy & m=1

>

[Guest guest]

Amazing all the true native Floridians. We are a rare species,

nowadays. Typically everyone just moves to Florida. No Texas roots

other than a darling stepson who grew up in San and goes to

school at F. Austin. As for Canada, we are dying to visit.

Specifically, Quebec, for my husband's family name is Montcalm and his

great great (not sure how many greats) grandfather was General Montcalm.

Have a great day ladies. nan

[Guest guest]

My sister lives in St. Augustine! They have an ice cream store on A1A called

Ike's Island Ice Cream. Check 'em out, and tell them sent you!

[Guest guest]

,

GET OUT! I can't believe that your sister owns Ike's! That is the BEST

place to go after a long, hot day on the beach! I will be sure to stop by!

We lived about 3 blocks away from there. Small world, huh?

Take Care,

[Guest guest]

,

I have heard of Ike's! Does that count?

Take care,

Krista

[Guest guest]

ÿþ

[Guest guest]

Tara

scroll ttc. mentioned

O.k.

I'm glad to hear everything is going well for you. I will keep

everything that can be crossed, crossed for you. May this be your month!

I am now day 23, and patiently awaiting the hags estimated arrival on

Saturday. I do not think that there's any chance of this month working

for us, but we had fun trying, and strangely, for the first time, I

don't really care if she comes. I will try my best to make December

count for us, but I don't feel so absorbed as I did beginning of this

month, which is probably a good thing, as I have no nails left as is, so

not much left to chew off.(ha ha)

good luck to you!

have a good evening.

sonja

No Subject

Scroll down - ttc mentioned

OK that should be enough

Well we have been having a bd fest for the past few days. I think I

O'd on Sunday - so I'm chanting swim boys swim! I am never ever late.

So 2 weeks from today will be day 30 and will make me 2 days late. If

AF hasn't arrived by then I will test with a hpt and call me dr. for a

blood test. So keep your fingers crossed for me and say a prayer. I

will be trying to keep myself busy between now and then with Christmas

shopping and wrapping and decorating. It's weird b/c I can't stop

thinking about it - but I must or I will literally drive myself crazy.

Hope you're all doing well. Talk to you soon

Tara

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Sonja,

Scroll

ttc mentioned

I will keep my fingers crossed that the old hag will not pay you her normal

visit. But I'm glad to see you have a positive attitude in case she does

rear her ugly head. I need to work on that part. It's like I'm so

convinced that this will be the month. I just don't want to put too much

faith in its certainty and then be crushed afterward. But like you said -

if nothing else we had fun trying. Keep me posted.

Tara

No Subject

Scroll down - ttc mentioned

OK that should be enough

Well we have been having a bd fest for the past few days. I think I

O'd on Sunday - so I'm chanting swim boys swim! I am never ever late.

So 2 weeks from today will be day 30 and will make me 2 days late. If

AF hasn't arrived by then I will test with a hpt and call me dr. for a

blood test. So keep your fingers crossed for me and say a prayer. I

will be trying to keep myself busy between now and then with Christmas

shopping and wrapping and decorating. It's weird b/c I can't stop

thinking about it - but I must or I will literally drive myself crazy.

Hope you're all doing well. Talk to you soon

Tara

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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- Simplifying group communications

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[Guest guest]

Well said, Stacey

Amy

[Guest guest]

Dear Stacey M,

I am sending some prayers your way in hopes that you are ovulating from the

right side! We are on " almost " the same cycle. Today is day CD13 for me. I

had an appointment with my R.E. the other night and he has agreed to monitor

me with U/S

on day CD12. I am going to start next month though because with my luck, I'd

get

pregnant and have to be going through HCG's and worrying right ON Christmas.

So,

I decided that another month isn't going to hurt. You, atleast, will be past

Christmas before AF should show up, right?

SCROLL PLEASE (ART MENTIONED)

*

*

*

Alright, you all my know already that the R.E. was not really optimistic

about my left tube. He seems to think that it is non-funtional and that is

why when I do get pregnant, it is always on the right side. And, since the

right tube is not in good shape anyway, I end up with an EP. But, for my own

piece of mind, I have decided to TTC for three left ovulation's and if I do

not get pregnant, Mike and I have decided to go the IVF route. My R.E. said

that the cost was $8000. I was thinking it was $15000. My insurance will

cover $3000. Making a $5000 financial commitment for the chance of having a

baby is definitely attainable. We'll hopefully be getting a nice

refund from the I.R.S. (lots of deductions this year, yeah!) and we have some

in savings. I know that it is not a guarantee, but the R.E. says that my

chances are around 35-40%. So, hopefully my left tube will be alright and

I'll conceive naturally and all of the right sided EP's have just been due to

a matter of timing, but I do feel better in knowing that I have that all

important PLAN!!!

This is the website for the R.E. I am seeing, his name is Clemens Grosskinsky

and the site is pretty informative. Check it out if you have time. You can

even e-mail him with questions!

<A HREF= " http://www.ohiorepromed.com/index.html " >Ohio Reproductive Medicine

- Advanced Infertility and Reproductive Endocrinology</A>

Thanks for listening ladies!

[Guest guest]

Stacey,

You will be in my prayers. I hope the ultrasound goes your way.

I think you made an excellent post about the progression of our group. I

have not responded to it yet, since I am definitely at the ttc stage. I

couldn't have said it better than you did. I am interested in everyone's

situation - those who have recently suffered a loss, those trying to adopt

or ttc, those who are pg or pursuing IVF. We may have all come here for

the same reason, but naturally our needs evolve with time. And frankly I'd

hate to lose you all as I face ttc. I also want to help those who are new

to the group as they go through the difficult stages of grief. I was

immensely helped by the ladies here and I want to continue to help others.

So that's my feeling. Where were all brought here for the same reason,

and I think we can continue to offer assistance as our needs change with

time.

Tara

No Subject

Hi Ladies,

I just wanted to ask if ya'll could keep me in your prayers.....I have my

ultrasound in the morning to find out which side I am going to ovulate

from. It will be day 12 tomorrow and I am starting to feel anxious. I am

praying that it will be on the right side because that is where I have my

remaining tube. If it is on the left side the RE doesn't even want us to

try this month. I would appreciate it and I'll let ya know after the

appointment what the outcome is.

I also wanted to respond to 's post. I can understand why she is

leaving and that is what is best for her. I can also understand too that

this site is for EP and most of the time the conversations are about

charting, ttc, ovulation and other topics surrounding pregnancy. I know

for myself when I joined the group it was very soon after my last ep and

surgery. I needed the support of this group to help me through the hard

times that nobody else seemed to understand. As time has gone on we have

all grown together and now several months later our situations have all

changed. Some are now able to ttc again, others have come to the decision

to wait or adopt, and some thank the Lord are even pregnant. As the group

changes so have the discussions (which is only natural) . I know that I

look forward to the variety of posts from the ladies who are in all

situations. Even though I don't chart I read all about it because some day

I might decide to do so. Adoption may also be another possibility someday

as well as IVF. I enjoy learning about each of these areas and feel

comfortable knowing there is support here for lives trials and tribulations

(DH job, living situations, insurance problems, in-law headaches etc.) When

a new member joins our group we re-visit those feelings we had when our

loss occurred and are able to share the sorrow and welcome the newcomer. I

work hard to be positive and look to the future, and I love that I have

all of you to share my hopes and fears with. Looking forward to the

possibility of being pg.. again is so exciting and terrifying and all of

you know first hand what I mean.

I don't know if I got my point across very well, I agree we need to be

sensitive to the fact that not all of us are at the same stage, I don't

know exactly how to do that, I guess that is why we have subject lines and

scroll spaces, hopefully that is sufficient enough and we are not hurting

anyones feelings.

Sorry to ramble, I'll let you know how the ultrasound goes tomorrow.

Have a great day!

Stacey

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[Guest guest]

Dear Stacey M,

I am going to start after AF this month. That should be on Christmas Day

(oh joy!).

The R.E. wants to have me in on CD12 for the ultrasound. If what he suspects

is true, that my left tube is in worse shape than the right, then this

monitoring will

probably not be advantageous. On the other hand, it could just be fine and i

may have just been really unlucky in that i've conceived so many times from

the right side. Who knows! Again, the old left ovary/right tube and vice

versa was discussed

and he believes that BOTH tubes attempt to retreive eggs after ovulation and

the closer one obviously wins out in most cases. But, in my case, or so he

thinks, the left tube is unable to do anything. So, the right one is where I

am getting pregnant in and it isn't in really good shape either. He wants to

do another HSG (its been 2.5 yrs since the last) to see if there is anything

evident from that, but he says that HSG is a crude assessment of the interior

of the tube.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

And, geez, that $15000 was what I had always thought the cost was, so when he

told me $8000 I was a lot more interested in it!!!!

[Guest guest]

,

Scroll

TTC mentioned

1

2

3

I just read your post and was really glad to see that you have a plan. It

sounds like a good one to me. And it's wonderful that ins will cover a %

of the expenses. I will pray that things go alright with you next month.

Tara

Re: No Subject

Dear Stacey M,

I am sending some prayers your way in hopes that you are ovulating from the

right side! We are on " almost " the same cycle. Today is day CD13 for me.

I

had an appointment with my R.E. the other night and he has agreed to

monitor

me with U/S

on day CD12. I am going to start next month though because with my luck,

I'd

get

pregnant and have to be going through HCG's and worrying right ON

Christmas.

So,

I decided that another month isn't going to hurt. You, atleast, will be

past

Christmas before AF should show up, right?

SCROLL PLEASE (ART MENTIONED)

*

*

*

Alright, you all my know already that the R.E. was not really optimistic

about my left tube. He seems to think that it is non-funtional and that is

why when I do get pregnant, it is always on the right side. And, since the

right tube is not in good shape anyway, I end up with an EP. But, for my

own

piece of mind, I have decided to TTC for three left ovulation's and if I do

not get pregnant, Mike and I have decided to go the IVF route. My R.E.

said

that the cost was $8000. I was thinking it was $15000. My insurance will

cover $3000. Making a $5000 financial commitment for the chance of having

a

baby is definitely attainable. We'll hopefully be getting a nice

refund from the I.R.S. (lots of deductions this year, yeah!) and we have

some

in savings. I know that it is not a guarantee, but the R.E. says that my

chances are around 35-40%. So, hopefully my left tube will be alright and

I'll conceive naturally and all of the right sided EP's have just been due

to

a matter of timing, but I do feel better in knowing that I have that all

important PLAN!!!

This is the website for the R.E. I am seeing, his name is Clemens

Grosskinsky

and the site is pretty informative. Check it out if you have time. You

can

even e-mail him with questions!

<A HREF= " http://www.ohiorepromed.com/index.html " >Ohio Reproductive

Medicine

- Advanced Infertility and Reproductive Endocrinology</A>

Thanks for listening ladies!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

When I first had my appt. with the RE last month I went in thinking that IVF

was the route I wanted to go. I had already asked their billing office

about fees and what is required up front. They said 15,000 dollars. Of

course we don't have that kind of money, but I wanted to be prepared so I

called the bank and got my dh and I approved for the loan " just in case " .

When I went to my appt. I told her that I had been really researching IVF

and all that is involved (a lot of help from Krista) and she said at this

time she thinks I should try again naturally and with the ultrasound

monitoring. I agreed to do this and hopefully it works. If not, then I

know that I no longer have any choices, to become pregnant I would need to

go the IVF route. I'm hoping and praying this works and that the monitoring

and fertility drugs help to conceive a baby in the uterus.

IVF will be my last resort when there are no other routes to take.

When is your ultrasound of the ovaries gonna be?

Stacey McCoy

Re: No Subject

>Dear Stacey M,

>

>I am sending some prayers your way in hopes that you are ovulating from the

>right side! We are on " almost " the same cycle. Today is day CD13 for me.

I

>had an appointment with my R.E. the other night and he has agreed to

monitor

>me with U/S

>on day CD12. I am going to start next month though because with my luck,

I'd

>get

>pregnant and have to be going through HCG's and worrying right ON

Christmas.

>So,

>I decided that another month isn't going to hurt. You, atleast, will be

past

>Christmas before AF should show up, right?

>

>SCROLL PLEASE (ART MENTIONED)

>

>*

>

>

>

>*

>

>

>

>*

>

>

>Alright, you all my know already that the R.E. was not really optimistic

>about my left tube. He seems to think that it is non-funtional and that is

>why when I do get pregnant, it is always on the right side. And, since the

>right tube is not in good shape anyway, I end up with an EP. But, for my

own

>piece of mind, I have decided to TTC for three left ovulation's and if I do

>not get pregnant, Mike and I have decided to go the IVF route. My R.E.

said

>that the cost was $8000. I was thinking it was $15000. My insurance will

>cover $3000. Making a $5000 financial commitment for the chance of having

a

>baby is definitely attainable. We'll hopefully be getting a nice

>refund from the I.R.S. (lots of deductions this year, yeah!) and we have

some

>in savings. I know that it is not a guarantee, but the R.E. says that my

>chances are around 35-40%. So, hopefully my left tube will be alright and

>I'll conceive naturally and all of the right sided EP's have just been due

to

>a matter of timing, but I do feel better in knowing that I have that all

>important PLAN!!!

>

>This is the website for the R.E. I am seeing, his name is Clemens

Grosskinsky

>and the site is pretty informative. Check it out if you have time. You

can

>even e-mail him with questions!

> <A HREF= " http://www.ohiorepromed.com/index.html " >Ohio Reproductive

Medicine

>- Advanced Infertility and Reproductive Endocrinology</A>

>Thanks for listening ladies!

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>http://clickhere./click/1705

>

>

>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

>-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=ectopicpregnancy & m=1

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Krista,

Pam

[Guest guest]

Nora:

Like I said, maybe if you continued to go to a counselor on your own it

would help you to be able to talk about how you are feeling so you can make

some decisions and deal with the situation. I know how discouraging it must

be to believe that you have lost your best friend and soul mate. What you

need to be concerned with right now is *yourself* first, so you can be

strong enough mentally, physically, and emotionally to take care of your

children and their needs because your relationship with your dh affects them

too.

Please know that I am praying for you and I hope you will keep us posted on

how things are going for you.