Re: All Addiction Recovery Groups cancelled

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/2/99 9:13:05 PM Central Standard Time, AuguralOne@...

writes:

<<

" This program is religious, and works on the basis of religious beliefs.

Five

of the 12 steps mention a male, monotheistic God and Christianity is a

dominant theme in this program "

>>

Atheists, Buddhists, etc. have been able to adapt the program to their own

beliefs by replacing " God " with " good, " or a personally held moral ideal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

What are the criteria for " cult " ?

In a message dated 1/2/99 10:32:47 PM Central Standard Time,

AuguralOne@... writes:

<<

I agree. But I believe in others having the right to join cults (after

informed consent), or even die if they so wish. I hate AA/NA as much as the

next person, but it should not be banned.

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/99 1:12:40 AM Central Standard Time,

sure@... writes:

<< As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the main

goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>

" Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what facts

was this " seeming " based? AA literature mentions atheists successful in the

program in a number of places. In fact, there's an AA pamphlet about them.

I've been going for seven months, and nobody has said ANYTHING to me about

Jesus or Xianity; I have only heard one person mention the bible. Where do you

get the idea their goal is to " make Christians " ?

<< I believe the main

goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>>

Why?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-01-03 02:26:38 EST, you write:

<< " Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what facts

was this " seeming " based? AA literature mentions atheists successful in the

program in a number of places. In fact, there's an AA pamphlet about them.

I've been going for seven months, and nobody has said ANYTHING to me about

Jesus or Xianity; I have only heard one person mention the bible. Where do

you

get the idea their goal is to " make Christians " ? >>

Read the Big Book chapter " We Agnostics, " then eat your words.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

---AuguralOne@... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 99-01-02 21:37:45 EST, you write:

>

> << Hi ,

>

> What you write mostly does make sense to me but I'm still concerned

when

> I think about someone else deciding what is good for me. Why can't I

> choose from a smorgasbord of ideas and programs? Wouldn't that be

> better for me in the beginning of recovery anyway? I mean to take

> responsibility for myself to decide for myself if AA or SMART is

bunk to

> me or the greatest thing since low cal. cheeze slices came along?

>

> Take care.

>

> Rick >>

>

> Dear Rick,

>

> I believe that AA/NA should be available to those who want that type

program.

> But, I think AA/NA has *NO* business facilitating state-sponsored

coercion

> (signing attendamnce verification sheets, etc.) *AND* has an

affirmative

> obligation (given the vulnerable state that most " newcomers " arrive

in) to

> state the following:

>

> " This program is religious, and works on the basis of religious

beliefs. Five

> of the 12 steps mention a male, monotheistic God and Christianity is a

> dominant theme in this program "

>

> If this were done, I would regard AA/NA as any other freely-chosen

religion.

-

even if this were done it is not enough. As I have stated before, the

reason I decided to 'join' AA was BECAUSE of its belief in God. My

voluntary membership did not protect me from the devastating effects

of this program, nor did my belief in God (I finally told myself there

was no way I could be doing 'God's Will' for me,if constant prayer and

adherence to this 'program' was causing me a nervous breakdown). AA

kills people, and I would even venture to say it kills more people

than it saves.

> And, accordingly, I would adhere to H. L. Mencken's words that

(paraphrasing)

> " religions are to be respected to the same degree and to the same

extent as

> any man's belief that his wife is pretty and his children are smart. "

>

> I merely feel AA and NA are ineffetive and dishonest. Others are

free to form

> their own opinions, and I will " butt out " of their choices and

lifestyles when

> they stop coercing and deceiving others.

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

I've read it plenty of times, and nowhere in it does it say AA is a Xian

mission. Nor does this change the fact that there are many atheists in the

program who are welcomed by it. My words go uneaten.

In a message dated 1/3/99 1:38:59 AM Central Standard Time, AuguralOne@...

writes:

<<

<< " Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what

facts

was this " seeming " based? AA literature mentions atheists successful in

the

program in a number of places. In fact, there's an AA pamphlet about them.

I've been going for seven months, and nobody has said ANYTHING to me about

Jesus or Xianity; I have only heard one person mention the bible. Where do

you

get the idea their goal is to " make Christians " ? >>

Read the Big Book chapter " We Agnostics, " then eat your words.

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Yes I've been asked to pray, and I've done so, in spite of my atheistic

leanings. That certainly won't turn me into a christian; surely you don't

think I'm THAT gullible? And I've found it very easy to adapt the " religious "

ideas into my own understanding of psychology, etc. equivocating " HP " with a

moral ideal, " spirituality " with general emotio-psychological backdrop akin to

Rand's " sense of life " concept, " prayer " as a mental focussing exercise with

an archetypally resonant component, et cetera. It hasn't been very difficult.

I really don't find it at all threatening or disorienting; it's actually been

kind of an educational creative exercise. I've even openly voiced disagreement

with AA literature during meetings, which hasn't caused any problem at all.

WHile I disagree with AA on a number of issues and am growing skeptical about

it in some ways (hence my involvement in this e-list) I must say I don't see

the brainwashed cult robots that you seem to be talking about.

In a message dated 1/3/99 2:20:47 AM Central Standard Time,

jay05@... writes:

<< Have you been asked to pray? Has anybody ever asked you to

lead the group in prayer, in spite of making your lack of

religion clear? I was told to pray and meditate every day,

in spite of the fact that I made it clear that I was an

atheist. When I brought up that AA might not be for me

because I was an atheist, I was told that the program was

spiritual not religious. Immediately after a 20+ year

member sternly informed me of the distinction, then another

member felt inspired to share how Jesus Christ had saved him

by sending him to AA. After that guy was done, we got up,

held hands, said the lords prayer, and walked out of the

church. But hey its not religious!

The ambiguity is a mindfuck. The spirituality/religion is

a double binding message. The ambiguity combines with

popular notions of spirituality being an indication of

psychological health and a way to happiness. This serves to

disarm peoples well formed arguments against religion. If

Steppers were to show up at your front door early on

saturday mornings, trying to explain the difference between

religion and spirituality, then asking you to hold hands and

pray with them, you could look them in the eye, tell them

bullshit, and slam the door in their face. But since you

are meeting them on their ground (and are outnumbered), they

get to make the rules and define the concepts. Not having

arguments against spirituality, steppers can confuse the new

comer and distract them with other ambiguous terms such as

powerlessness etc. This creates a state of tension and

confusion in which the newcomer has difficulty trusting

their own sense of reality, since everybody else seems to

understand such ambiguities. The final resolution of this

tension is to admit defeat and accept the groups definitions

of the ambiguous terms. Jim.

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Atheists, Buddhists, etc. have been able to adapt the program to their own

> beliefs by replacing " God " with " good, " or a personally held moral ideal.

As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the main

goal of AA/NA is to make Christians. If you happen to kick your

addiction along the way, well that's good too but that takes second

place. People so inclined could just join the church and do as well in

most cases I imagine.

Rick

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

That I can understand; I was drunk at my first meeting, and decided to try

their therapeutic methods. Incidentally, it was at the recommendation of an

atheist who has been in AA for 20 years. He's a criminal defense attorney.

In a message dated 1/3/99 5:57:30 AM Central Standard Time,

sure@... writes:

<< I (Rick Griffiths) wrote:

>

> << As an Atheist who " outed " himself at his very first AA meeting, it was

> suggested that I do the same. Somehow it just didn't seem to me like

> they were going to be satisfied with that for long. I believe the main

> goal of AA/NA is to make Christians.>>

>

and Pupship wrote:

" Somehow it just didn't seem " isn't very compelling language; on what

facts

> was this " seeming " based?

and I reply:

Hi Pupship,

I stand by what I wrote. Those were my experiences in the approx. year

and 1/2 I went to the meetings. That's why I wrote " seem to me. "

Gawd love them, they never gave up trying to 'save' me or anyone else

that happened by. But I didn't hide the fact I don't believe there is a

God, and I respectfully refused to pray and so drew a lot of subtle, and

not so sublte fire. Every time it came up I explained that I'd worked

too hard to build a happy life for myself and there was no way I was

going to go back to acting like a junkie/drunk by just doing whatever is

easiest.

To be fair, I was around 4 years clean and sober and fully recovered by

the time I hit my first meeting. I was there to get my coworkers off my

ass and to support our clients, and to learn so there wasn't much at

stake for me.

Rick Griffiths

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I appreciate your concern, it's not insulting at all. I'm pretty well aware of

all this; it makes participation more interesting. I am learning to identify

certain behavioral traits of people in this kind of situation. It's not that I

feel uncomfortable talking to them about whether or not I'm alcoholic, in fact

I can think of several members who I could discuss it rather openly with.

Ultimately I'm going to have to figure that out for myself anyway; what's most

important to me right now is getting my life back together using whatever I

can to facilitate the process, some of which I'm finding conveniently provided

for in AA, for now at least.

In a message dated 1/3/99 11:28:52 AM Central Standard Time,

jay05@... writes:

<< Okay, but are you adapting your belief system in order to

accommodate their religious program? You've obviously

adapted your behavior. One mistake people often make is to

think they are not vulnerable to social dynamics. Be aware

that you are doing something against your beliefs and be

certain that you attribute such behavior to the social

context and not your own beliefs, this is how people are

sucked into cults ... they are asked to justify their

behavior by cult members, and not being aware of the social

forces involved, they mistakenly attribute the behavior to

internal beliefs.

Why, if you have not internalized their belief systems or

are not in the process of doing this, are you hesitant to

speak to them about whether you're really an alcoholic?

Perhaps you're afraid of appearing inconsistent to them?

Withdrawal of social approval? No external justification

for your uncertainty? Perhaps you have already been told

what you should think? If not, why not ask them about this

and see what they tell you? None of this is a put down, its

how we function. Jim.

Pupship@... wrote:

>

> Yes I've been asked to pray, and I've done so, in spite of my atheistic

> leanings. That certainly won't turn me into a christian; surely you don't

> think I'm THAT gullible? And I've found it very easy to adapt the

" religious "

> ideas into my own understanding of psychology, etc. equivocating " HP " with

a

> moral ideal, " spirituality " with general emotio-psychological backdrop

akin to

> Rand's " sense of life " concept, " prayer " as a mental focussing exercise

with

> an archetypally resonant component, et cetera. It hasn't been very

difficult.

> I really don't find it at all threatening or disorienting; it's actually

been

> kind of an educational creative exercise. I've even openly voiced

disagreement

> with AA literature during meetings, which hasn't caused any problem at

all.

> WHile I disagree with AA on a number of issues and am growing skeptical

about

> it in some ways (hence my involvement in this e-list) I must say I don't

see

> the brainwashed cult robots that you seem to be talking about.

>

> In a message dated 1/3/99 2:20:47 AM Central Standard Time,

> jay05@... writes:

>

> << Have you been asked to pray? Has anybody ever asked you to

> lead the group in prayer, in spite of making your lack of

> religion clear? I was told to pray and meditate every day,

> in spite of the fact that I made it clear that I was an

> atheist. When I brought up that AA might not be for me

> because I was an atheist, I was told that the program was

> spiritual not religious. Immediately after a 20+ year

> member sternly informed me of the distinction, then another

> member felt inspired to share how Jesus Christ had saved him

> by sending him to AA. After that guy was done, we got up,

> held hands, said the lords prayer, and walked out of the

> church. But hey its not religious!

> The ambiguity is a mindfuck. The spirituality/religion is

> a double binding message. The ambiguity combines with

> popular notions of spirituality being an indication of

> psychological health and a way to happiness. This serves to

> disarm peoples well formed arguments against religion. If

> Steppers were to show up at your front door early on

> saturday mornings, trying to explain the difference between

> religion and spirituality, then asking you to hold hands and

> pray with them, you could look them in the eye, tell them

> bullshit, and slam the door in their face. But since you

> are meeting them on their ground (and are outnumbered), they

> get to make the rules and define the concepts. Not having

> arguments against spirituality, steppers can confuse the new

> comer and distract them with other ambiguous terms such as

> powerlessness etc. This creates a state of tension and

> confusion in which the newcomer has difficulty trusting

> their own sense of reality, since everybody else seems to

> understand such ambiguities. The final resolution of this

> tension is to admit defeat and accept the groups definitions

> of the ambiguous terms. Jim.

>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Rita, more power to you! I know where you're coming from. Interestingly

enough, an atheist who has been sober in AA for twenty years suggested I go.

Self will run riot! <g>

In a message dated 1/3/99 12:46:02 PM Central Standard Time,

railroadrita@... writes:

<< Pupship, when people talk of AA trying to " Christianize " them,

they don't mean they're instructed to cross themselves or told that

Jesus is their Savior. The issue is the deity, or " higher power " ,

required in the steps. The attributes of this deity, regardless of

shallow encouragement to conceptualize it however you wish, make it a

Christian deity, and specifically a Protestant-revivalist deity in the

tradition of the 19th century German Pietists, on whose theology

Buchman's Oxford Group philosophy was based.

Telling an atheist that he/she must believe in and pray to some

superhuman power for salvation and removal of " defects " is clearly

telling the atheist to accept monotheistic religious ideas, regardless

of whether the word " God " is used. Thus the atheist newcomer is

actively pressured into changing his/her belief system. But does the

12-step belief system really allow whatever monotheistic

conceptualization one desires?

The Jewish concept of God is a deity that is prayed to for

purposes of adoration, not for personal guidance or salvation. And

" self-will " , far from being a dangerous thing to be subjugated lest one

be driven away from God and into " insanity " , is considered in Judaism to

be a gift bestowed on man by God. An observant Jew would never expect

God to " remove " any personal shortcomings. The ideal in Judaism is

personal reflection on behavior, followed by behavioral change as deemed

necessary. The concept of immoral or unhealthy behavior being caused by

a " spiritual disease " that only God can cure (but only if you " humble "

yourself enough) is foreign to Judaism. God as Jews understand him

(Baruch HaShem) is not the God of the steps. A Jewish newcomer being

told, " You can have whatever conception of God you wish, as long as you

believe you're powerless and insane and that God will remove your

defects, restore your sanity, and relieve your urge to drink " is being

told to convert to a non-Jewish belief system.

So pervasive is the neo-Buchmanist Christianity of AA that any

expression of ideas of self-improvement or " turning over a new leaf " is

termed " denial " or " your disease talking. " I was told point-blank in

treatment by my " grateful AA member " counselor that believing in myself

and my own capabilities is " dangerous " ; that I could only " be in

recovery " if I chose a " power greater than myself " with the attributes

Buchman and thought it should have and allowed it to rescue me.

Needless to say, I never did achieve the " in recovery " status; I simply

stopped misusing alcohol, through my own power, and with my self-will

happily " running riot. "

~RRRita

P.S. For those interested in different theologies and concepts of God,

I recommend " A History of God " by Armstrong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I don't think the scare tactics are working on me as well as they are intended

to,. Do you?

In a message dated 1/3/99 3:45:35 PM Central Standard Time,

zoesunshine@... writes:

<< I meant that being told AA is a religion is not enough. If someone had

said it was a religion, I wouldn't have cared; I needed to be told it

was a brainwashing cult that would use scare tactics to keep me

incapacitated for the rest of my life. >>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/99 3:59:39 PM Central Standard Time,

zoesunshine@... writes:

<< I'd say the goal is to make Catholics-LOL ( now please, let's not get

offended- technically I am Catholic)

>>

I went to some meetings in Louisiana (95% Catholic) and some of the groupers

identified themselves as " recovering Catholics " in addition to their alcoholic

status. And they were serious about it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/99 4:04:51 PM Central Standard Time,

zoesunshine@... writes:

<< this tension is one the prerequisites for brainwashing- it's also

the stuff that will make you crack-up >>

I haven't felt much tension up my crack, but I'm sure it'll get there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/99 7:10:21 PM Central Standard Time,

zoesunshine@... writes:

<<

no, maybe not. I really bought the program hook, line, and sinker- but

I was unaware of what it was doing to me. Personally, I wouldn't want

to spend one hour everyday with the Jehova's just to see if I could

take it- I'm not going near anything with a program, a process, or a

way to God, ever again.

>>

I can understand your attitude. I have been able to elude damage, or at least

I hope so.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

no, maybe not. I really bought the program hook, line, and sinker- but

I was unaware of what it was doing to me. Personally, I wouldn't want

to spend one hour everyday with the Jehova's just to see if I could

take it- I'm not going near anything with a program, a process, or a

way to God, ever again.

---Pupship@... wrote:

>

> I don't think the scare tactics are working on me as well as they

are intended

> to,. Do you?

>

>

> In a message dated 1/3/99 3:45:35 PM Central Standard Time,

> zoesunshine@... writes:

>

> << I meant that being told AA is a religion is not enough. If

someone had

> said it was a religion, I wouldn't have cared; I needed to be told it

> was a brainwashing cult that would use scare tactics to keep me

> incapacitated for the rest of my life. >>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>

http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

You're going to meetings and praying. Think about it! Maybe it is (appears

to be?) your choice, but based on what information, and how much of that

information is accurate? There was a time when virtually everyone thought

the world was flat. It was a sincere belief but is wasn't true. The people

in AA are doing the same thing, in my opinion, with their beliefs that

" alcoholism " is a " spiritual disease " , incurable, etc, that responds only

to a spiritual program that gives remission one day at a time, going to a

number of meetings each week, etc etc etc. This is their version of not

sailing too close to the edge of the world. The amount of people you have

around you who believe something is not really a guide to how true it is.

You are spending an amount (a substantial amount?) of your free time in the

company of these people- is this in the belief that you need to do so or

you might drink again? Something is getting you to all those meetings. You

are asking the question " am I an alcoholic? " - not initially noticing that

to ask the question you have to believe in the reality of the term, which

on its own is to accept a large amount of the AA philosophy. FWIW I wasn't

aware of any scare tactics being used on me at any time during my AA/NA

membership- it wasn't until some years after I stopped going that I

understood what had happened, and how I had come to believe in all sorts of

things that have no basis in reality- " alcoholism " , need for some sort of

higher power, need to be in meetimgs regularly, need to " work a spiritual

program " , etc etc etc. It is very subtle- much of the false info I was

given was implied rather than spelt out, and the fact that it came from

well-meaning people who had got my trust softened any critical responses I

might have had. They were good people who wanted to help me after all.

Sincerely deluded people can be very convincing.

JB.

---------------------------------

At 07:58 PM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote:

>I don't think the scare tactics are working on me as well as they are

intended

>to,. Do you?

>

>

>In a message dated 1/3/99 3:45:35 PM Central Standard Time,

>zoesunshine@... writes:

>

><< I meant that being told AA is a religion is not enough. If someone had

> said it was a religion, I wouldn't have cared; I needed to be told it

> was a brainwashing cult that would use scare tactics to keep me

> incapacitated for the rest of my life. >>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

>http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/3/99 5:10:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,

zoesunshine@... writes:

> I'm not going near anything with a program, a process, or a

> way to God, ever again.

You go, girl. <g>

And keep on thinking free.

Henders

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/1999 7:49:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

SnowyEagle@... writes:

> LOL!! Enlightened, indeed! Personally, I think it has more to do with

> hopelessness, having your culture ripped apart, and - oh - don't get me

> started! Hey, read " Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. "

>

> Snowy

I think that you are absolutely about this.

But take heart...I think Native Americans may just get their lands back, if

they keep building casinos like Foxwoods.<G>

Bette

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hello heidi

you hear the news the same way they used to hear it in the SOviet Union. The SU

news agency Tass had " White Tass " that was accurate with just the worst

anti-Soviet news removed, and " Red Tass " that was after it had been given the

1984 treatment.

All you will get from your roomie is " Blue Tass " - news filtered thru the AA

belief system. She'll never tell you a moderation success story, in part

becuase *she* doesnt hear them - these ppl leave AA - she only hears those who

screw up. Also, she will never tell you abt abstention failures apart from

those who come back too, as proof of the need for AA.

I have heard a cognitive description of 'alcoholism' which simply states that

everybody can get merry on alcohol, but that the 'alcoholic' mistakes the

illusion for reality. Instead of seeing alcohol use as a source of ephemeral

pleasure of no great value, they see it as opening the door to a genuine new

world where life is easier.

Pete

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:06:27 -0800 (PST) heidi michaud

wrote:

> it is confusing isn't it? I live with an AAer so I hear all the news~

> and the current one is a woman with 11 years sober who felt she could

> socially drink, and now has bottles of vodka hidden all over the

> house. It's very hard to understand. Is it chemical? Or are these

> people just so out of touch with themselves that the alcohol/drugs

> bring them to a place they can't get to otherwise? oops have to go,

> continue later.

>

>

>

>

> ---SnowyEagle wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Heidi~

> >

> > This was really interesting. Your aunt, a REAL person, has noticed

> this.

> > It's not just some scientist writing theoretically.

> >

> > From what I have read, it is supposed to be genetic, but who knows?

> I know

> > the Native American lacks the enzyme necessary to digest milk, which

> would

> > be an evolutionary thing, and genetic. Maybe the rest is, too. I

> know the

> > Europeans noticed the same thing as your aunt did when they first

> came to

> > this country. Just give those " Indians " firewater and you could have

> > whatever you wanted. They quickly saw the difference in the way they

> > reacted to it from the way the Indians did and used it to full

> advantage.

> >

> > It sounds like a genetic thing, doesn't it? Like the lacking enzyme

> for

> > milk protein, the lack of refined, concentrated carbohydrate in the

> diet

> > gave them a genetically different response to carbohydrate. Oh,

> boy. I

> > don't want to deal with this. If this is true, and I inherited it,

> no more

> > sugar. Yuck.

> >

> > I know my grandfather, who's grandfather was the Indian, said he had

> whiskey

> > once. Once. He didn't just like it. HE LOVED IT!! He loved it

> sooooo

> > much, he vowed to never touch it again, and didn't. He didn't know

> why, of

> > course, but he felt it would take over his life. This sounds

> genetic, too,

> > now that I think about it. His whole body just said " YES " when he

> took that

> > drink.

> >

> > I followed his advice and watch what I drink ~ always have. So,

> instead, I

> > have a weight issue. Hard to say which is worse. He didn't even

> have the

> > weight issue. He was skinny.

> >

> > Just some random thoughts in response to your very interesting post.

> >

> > Snowy

> >

> > >I have an aunt who was a nurse in for an Indian/Eskimo village(please

> > >pardon my ignorance of the details) in Northern-NORTHERN Canada. She

> > >often mentioned the amazing effects of alcohol, sugar, and white

> > >flour/processed foods, on these people: incredible violence, obesity,

> > >diabetes, tooth decay; all in one generation. This does say something

> > >about genetics, but I'm not sure what. Is it hypoglycemia? Is it

> > >simply the fact that they have no genetic history with these

> > >substances? What does this say about the genetic alcoholic

> connection?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >---Pete Watts wrote:

> > >>

> > >> Hi Snowy

> > >>

> > >> Secret confession: I just might go back to OA.

> > >>

> > >> when I query god, and they say:

> > >>

> > >> " All you need to know is that you aint it. " I shall reply:

> > >>

> > >> " No. i also need to know that you aint it either. "

> > >>

> > >> Stanton Peele has a website; a netsearch on his name will easily

> > >find it.

> > >>

> > >> btw, are you a Native American by any chance?

> > >>

> > >> I know that some Native American communities have had bad problems

> > >with

> > >> alcohol - I came across one paper reporting something like 75%

> > >lifetime

> > >> prevalence of alcohol abuse in men and 50% in women in one Native

> > >American

> > >> village. Presumably the disease concept/12-step ppl consider all

> > >these ppl

> > >> " diseased " . how very enlightened!

> > >>

> > >> Pete

> > >> ----------------------

> > >> " Never name the well from which you will not drink. "

> > >> - n Zimmer Bradley

> > >>

> > >> PERSONALITY-DISORDERS LIST:

> > >> http://rdz.acor.org/athenaeum/lists.phtml?personality-disorders

> > >> _____________________

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >> Isn't it Time You Moved to Fortune City?

> > >>

> >

> >http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

> > >>

> > >>

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

Yes, it definitely is confusing.

I think it's more the being out of touch with themselves deal. I'm

certainly no expert, but just from the people I've known who had alcohol

problems I found they were also people who had problems dealing with

reality. My theory has been that it is a way to escape themselves and facts

about their lives they don't want to deal with.

I could be all wet, too. (Pardon the pun).

Then, I hear a story like what my grandfather told, and it sounds chemical.

When you can get back to it, I'll be interested in hearing what else you

would have to say on it.

Snowy

it is confusing isn't it? I live with an AAer so I hear all the news~

>and the current one is a woman with 11 years sober who felt she could

>socially drink, and now has bottles of vodka hidden all over the

>house. It's very hard to understand. Is it chemical? Or are these

>people just so out of touch with themselves that the alcohol/drugs

>bring them to a place they can't get to otherwise? oops have to go,

>continue later.

>

>

>

>

>---SnowyEagle wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Heidi~

>>

>> This was really interesting. Your aunt, a REAL person, has noticed

>this.

>> It's not just some scientist writing theoretically.

>>

>> From what I have read, it is supposed to be genetic, but who knows?

>I know

>> the Native American lacks the enzyme necessary to digest milk, which

>would

>> be an evolutionary thing, and genetic. Maybe the rest is, too. I

>know the

>> Europeans noticed the same thing as your aunt did when they first

>came to

>> this country. Just give those " Indians " firewater and you could have

>> whatever you wanted. They quickly saw the difference in the way they

>> reacted to it from the way the Indians did and used it to full

>advantage.

>>

>> It sounds like a genetic thing, doesn't it? Like the lacking enzyme

>for

>> milk protein, the lack of refined, concentrated carbohydrate in the

>diet

>> gave them a genetically different response to carbohydrate. Oh,

>boy. I

>> don't want to deal with this. If this is true, and I inherited it,

>no more

>> sugar. Yuck.

>>

>> I know my grandfather, who's grandfather was the Indian, said he had

>whiskey

>> once. Once. He didn't just like it. HE LOVED IT!! He loved it

>sooooo

>> much, he vowed to never touch it again, and didn't. He didn't know

>why, of

>> course, but he felt it would take over his life. This sounds

>genetic, too,

>> now that I think about it. His whole body just said " YES " when he

>took that

>> drink.

>>

>> I followed his advice and watch what I drink ~ always have. So,

>instead, I

>> have a weight issue. Hard to say which is worse. He didn't even

>have the

>> weight issue. He was skinny.

>>

>> Just some random thoughts in response to your very interesting post.

>>

>> Snowy

>>

>> >I have an aunt who was a nurse in for an Indian/Eskimo village(please

>> >pardon my ignorance of the details) in Northern-NORTHERN Canada. She

>> >often mentioned the amazing effects of alcohol, sugar, and white

>> >flour/processed foods, on these people: incredible violence, obesity,

>> >diabetes, tooth decay; all in one generation. This does say something

>> >about genetics, but I'm not sure what. Is it hypoglycemia? Is it

>> >simply the fact that they have no genetic history with these

>> >substances? What does this say about the genetic alcoholic

>connection?

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