Re: The Steppers Claim A Jewish Conspiracy

[Guest guest]

>The intent of this post is not to represent Jews or Judaism or Atheism or

>Agnosticism unfavorably. It is designed to offer a reasoned explanation for

>and origin of the anti-12-step movement.

Reasoned ?

It seems to me that the first thing paranoid governments and cults do is

attack the Jews.

Larry

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[Guest guest]

Are you saying that there is no problem with the government forcing its

citizens to attend xa?

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[Guest guest]

The anti-12-step movement is a Jewish conspiracy?? Do posters here really

think they are going to be able to register " mild " protest against

" anti-addiction excess " without hearing more and more from people like

Augural?? The main force pushing AA and other 12-Step groups in the US is

the federal government, and the new forces of the " conservative revolution "

which now dominate that government. Putting your head in the sand, and

saying that you only want to discuss how 12-Step groups effect individuals

on a personal level, isn't going to protect you over the long term. You

can run from Augural and his like, but you won't be able to hide from them.

Just for the record, my background is German, and Roman Catholic (now

lapsed, since I proved to be a lot more catholic than the pope).

----------

> From: AuguralOne@...

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: The Steppers Claim A Jewish Conspiracy

> Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 12:52 PM

>

> Subject: Why call AA/NA " cults " ?

> Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 13:20 EST

> From: <A HREF= " aol://3548:Ten4BakDor " >Ten4BakDor</A>

> Message-id:

>

> There is a motive force behind cult watchers. In majority, these people

are

> atheists or agnostics to a greater or lesser degree but overwhelmingly

from

> other-than Christian backgrounds and, especially, Judaism.

>

> It is interesting to note that among those who label groups as cults

> consistently and continually point out religious origins and, wherever

> possible by remote connection or otherwise, seek to link such to Nazism.

>

> For example, Alcoholics Anonymous had its roots in a man named Bill

who

> was a member of the Oxford Group, a Christian organization, which did at

one

> time express Fascist sentiments and Hitler supported Fascist views

therefore

> the Oxford Group was sympathetic to the Nazi cause. And who looks for

Nazis

> anywhere and everywhere and especially in organizations employing

Christian

> beliefs? Jews.

>

> Who is anti-12-step?

>

> Stanton Peele: Jew. Webmaster, www.peele.net

>

> Fransway: Jew. Forthcoming author, 12-Step Horror Stories: True

> Tales of Misery, Betrayal and Abuse in AA, NA and 12-Step Treatment

>

> J. Gordon Melton, Jew. Author, Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in

America.

> (1986, New York: Garland Publishing)

>

> These are not the top dogs in the anti-12-step movement but are

representative

> of the overwhelming ethnic origin of anti-12-steppers. What conclusion

can be

> drawn from such?

>

> It's a story as old as time itself: the oppressed seeking revenge upon

its

> perceived (or real) oppressor. Christians of today are guilty by

association

> with Christians of yesterday. Therefore any group which serves to promote

> Christian ethics and beliefs is suspect and targetable.

>

> It is unrealistic in today's society for the oppressed to seek revenge

upon

> its oppressor by direct attack. Less-obvious and subtle approaches are

> required to successfully undermine today's oppressor.

>

> Example: the Cult Awareness Network is an organization which had its

roots in

> the Anti-Defamation League. Incepted by dissenters within the ADL, the

Cult

> Awareness Network formed to satiate the thirsts of radicals who felt the

> efforts of the ADL were less than deliberate. It is interesting to note

that

> only one single entity upon which the CAN set its sights was of Jewish

origin

> -- Messianic Jews, believers in Jesus as the Messiah -- despite the

> extraordinary number of peripheral Jewish cults in existence today.

> Necessarily, to protect its own, CAN did not consider these heretical

entities

> as cults but classified these as " sects " to separate these from the

societal

> stigma attached to the word " cult. "

>

> The intent of this post is not to represent Jews or Judaism or Atheism or

> Agnosticism unfavorably. It is designed to offer a reasoned explanation

for

> and origin of the anti-12-step movement.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Heart Disease. Family Medicine. ADD. Arthritis. Asthma. Neuroscience.

> Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics.

> Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/195/0

>

>

[Guest guest]

E Diener wrote:

>

> The anti-12-step movement is a Jewish conspiracy?? Do posters here really

> think they are going to be able to register " mild " protest against

> " anti-addiction excess " without hearing more and more from people like

> Augural??

,

Not at all, at least not me. I'm thrilled to death with his post and

have responded to it on the alt.recovery newsgroups and probably will

forward it on to some of the political and Jewish ngs. The post is much

more persuasive and effective than anything else I can imagine. Thank

you .

Ken Ragge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 02:00 PM 12/28/98 -0600, you wrote:

>The anti-12-step movement is a Jewish conspiracy?? Do posters here really

>think they are going to be able to register " mild " protest against

> " anti-addiction excess " without hearing more and more from people like

>Augural?? The main force pushing AA and other 12-Step groups in the US is

>the federal government, and the new forces of the " conservative revolution "

>which now dominate that government. Putting your head in the sand, and

>saying that you only want to discuss how 12-Step groups effect individuals

>on a personal level, isn't going to protect you over the long term. You

>can run from Augural and his like, but you won't be able to hide from them.

> Just for the record, my background is German, and Roman Catholic (now

>lapsed, since I proved to be a lot more catholic than the pope).

I'm not sure that " registering mild protest " is what people are doing here.

In my own case, like I said before, I am interested in helping people to

get out of 12 step programs if they want to, and dealing with the effects,

and in getting the alternatives more widely known and recognised, and I

think that is what this list helps that to happen. The political

correctness or otherwise of that activity isn't a factor. As far as I'm

concerned, its about helping people to get free, or avoid, the consequences

of the unhealthy 12-step belief system. I'm not bothered about one

anti-semitic poster; the racist " reasoning " is transparent and plain silly.

Whoever wrote that really isn't very good at making their case- just look

at this passage;

>> Who is anti-12-step?

>>

>> Stanton Peele: Jew. Webmaster, www.peele.net

>>

>> Fransway: Jew. Forthcoming author, 12-Step Horror Stories: True

>> Tales of Misery, Betrayal and Abuse in AA, NA and 12-Step Treatment

>>

>> J. Gordon Melton, Jew. Author, Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in

>> America.

>> (1986, New York: Garland Publishing)

>>

>> These are not the top dogs in the anti-12-step movement but are

>> representative

>> of the overwhelming ethnic origin of anti-12-steppers. What conclusion

>> can be

>> drawn from such?

Who is pro-negro?

Woops, I thought for a moment I was somewhere else.

Note that this anonymous person admits that his selection of supposedly

conspiratorial Jewish persons does not include any of the " top dogs in the

anti-12-step movement " . Why not? Could it be that their ethnic origin would

not support his argument? I can't think of a better reason for leaving them

out. The authors of the well-known anti-12-step books already published,

such as Vince Fox, Chas Bufe, Jack Trimpey and Ken Ragge all fail to get a

mention. Funny, that.

Joe Berenbaum

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 02:00 PM 12/28/98 -0600, you wrote:

>The anti-12-step movement is a Jewish conspiracy?? Do posters here really

>think they are going to be able to register " mild " protest against

> " anti-addiction excess " without hearing more and more from people like

>Augural?? The main force pushing AA and other 12-Step groups in the US is

>the federal government,

Yes, the industry functions because people keep coming back. Now if they

really quit their substances without putting alot of psychobabble and

contingencies to quitting ( " I must be happy, spiritual, nutrition

fortified, have the better job, crave less etc) then what would be the use

of " treatment " . Education would be a better word than treatment.

>and the new forces of the " conservative revolution "

>which now dominate that government. Putting your head in the sand, and

>saying that you only want to discuss how 12-Step groups effect individuals

>on a personal level, isn't going to protect you over the long term.

It is our constitutional rights we must guard.

Our democracy is in peril and opps, sorry but we are getting fascist

besides being capitalistic. Remember, the stock exchange is selling shares

in residential treatment. Oh, my!

>You

>can run from Augural and his like, but you won't be able to hide from them.

> Just for the record, my background is German, and Roman Catholic (now

>lapsed, since I proved to be a lot more catholic than the pope).

I enjoy the Anglican church but it has nothing to do with AA cultish

activities and dependency. God helps those who help themselves. Let's focus

the revolution on addiction services.

Cheers and thanks for letting me speak.

Carol Francey

>----------

>> From: AuguralOne@...

>> To: 12-step-freeegroups

>> Subject: The Steppers Claim A Jewish Conspiracy

>> Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 12:52 PM

>>

>> Subject: Why call AA/NA " cults " ?

>> Date: Mon, Dec 28, 1998 13:20 EST

>> From: <A HREF= " aol://3548:Ten4BakDor " >Ten4BakDor</A>

>> Message-id:

>>

>> There is a motive force behind cult watchers. In majority, these people

>are

>> atheists or agnostics to a greater or lesser degree but overwhelmingly

>from

>> other-than Christian backgrounds and, especially, Judaism.

>>

>> It is interesting to note that among those who label groups as cults

>> consistently and continually point out religious origins and, wherever

>> possible by remote connection or otherwise, seek to link such to Nazism.

>>

>> For example, Alcoholics Anonymous had its roots in a man named Bill

> who

>> was a member of the Oxford Group, a Christian organization, which did at

>one

>> time express Fascist sentiments and Hitler supported Fascist views

>therefore

>> the Oxford Group was sympathetic to the Nazi cause. And who looks for

>Nazis

>> anywhere and everywhere and especially in organizations employing

>Christian

>> beliefs? Jews.

>>

>> Who is anti-12-step?

>>

>> Stanton Peele: Jew. Webmaster, www.peele.net

>>

>> Fransway: Jew. Forthcoming author, 12-Step Horror Stories: True

>> Tales of Misery, Betrayal and Abuse in AA, NA and 12-Step Treatment

>>

>> J. Gordon Melton, Jew. Author, Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in

>America.

>> (1986, New York: Garland Publishing)

>>

>> These are not the top dogs in the anti-12-step movement but are

>representative

>> of the overwhelming ethnic origin of anti-12-steppers. What conclusion

>can be

>> drawn from such?

>>

>> It's a story as old as time itself: the oppressed seeking revenge upon

>its

>> perceived (or real) oppressor. Christians of today are guilty by

>association

>> with Christians of yesterday. Therefore any group which serves to promote

>> Christian ethics and beliefs is suspect and targetable.

>>

>> It is unrealistic in today's society for the oppressed to seek revenge

>upon

>> its oppressor by direct attack. Less-obvious and subtle approaches are

>> required to successfully undermine today's oppressor.

>>

>> Example: the Cult Awareness Network is an organization which had its

>roots in

>> the Anti-Defamation League. Incepted by dissenters within the ADL, the

>Cult

>> Awareness Network formed to satiate the thirsts of radicals who felt the

>> efforts of the ADL were less than deliberate. It is interesting to note

>that

>> only one single entity upon which the CAN set its sights was of Jewish

>origin

>> -- Messianic Jews, believers in Jesus as the Messiah -- despite the

>> extraordinary number of peripheral Jewish cults in existence today.

>> Necessarily, to protect its own, CAN did not consider these heretical

>entities

>> as cults but classified these as " sects " to separate these from the

>societal

>> stigma attached to the word " cult. "

>>

>> The intent of this post is not to represent Jews or Judaism or Atheism or

>> Agnosticism unfavorably. It is designed to offer a reasoned explanation

>for

>> and origin of the anti-12-step movement.

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Heart Disease. Family Medicine. ADD. Arthritis. Asthma. Neuroscience.

>> Hundreds of expert human guides to lead you through thousands of topics.

>> Explore The Mining Co. http://offers./click/195/0

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

But, Ken, doesn't that argue for the futility of trying to separate

" recovery talk " from " political talk " ??

----------

>

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Re: The Steppers Claim A Jewish Conspiracy

> Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 3:09 PM

>

> E Diener wrote:

> >

> > The anti-12-step movement is a Jewish conspiracy?? Do posters here

really

> > think they are going to be able to register " mild " protest against

> > " anti-addiction excess " without hearing more and more from people like

> > Augural??

>

> ,

>

> Not at all, at least not me. I'm thrilled to death with his post and

> have responded to it on the alt.recovery newsgroups and probably will

> forward it on to some of the political and Jewish ngs. The post is much

> more persuasive and effective than anything else I can imagine. Thank

> you .

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Build Your Group Headquarters at Fortune City?

> http://www2.fortunecity.com/cgi-bin/homepage/estate.pl?referer=findmail

>

>

[Guest guest]

heidi michaud wrote:

>

> okay, somebody help me here. I don't understand this perspective at

> all! I am not Jewish, I think Jesus was a cool dude, and I have gone

> to the ends of my limited earth trying to live as a true Christian. I

> was born Catholic, have always hated Church, never attended as a child

> nor was I forced to participate in Communions,etc. My family was not

> religious at all;my interest in spirituality arose from something

> inside me. My research,and personal opinions comparing AA to cults,

> has absolutelty nothing to do with the 'religious' aspect of it. In

> fact, the religious aspect is the only reason I joined! AA is a cult

> (a very dangerous one,as I have mentioned before, because it breaks

> you down and never rebuilds you)because of the brainwashing,and the

> ideas of death upon leaving the group, total devotion to the group,

> and many other tactics that can be found by doing a little research of

> your own.

>

Heidi,

As you pointed out, that fact that AA is religious has nothing, at least

not directly, to do with it qualifying as a cult. There are other types

of cult groups that are not at all religious (e.g. business and

political cults). There are also numerous religious groups that are not

at all cult like.

Where religion is important re: AA and part of its " cultness " is that

they have a specific set of religious beliefs but are dishonest about

it, most particularly in the recruiting of new members, " We are

spiritual, not religious. "

Another point where religion is important regarding AA is that the

legitmate relgious groups in this country essentially respect the

boundaries between Church and State. If a Methodist judge (or probation

officer, or employer, etc) were to tell someone, " Either go to my church

every Sunday or go to jail (or be fired) " there would be a hue and cry

not only from our institutions, but within the Methodist church itself.

At the founding of AA, it was known that if AA was seen as a religious

group, that they couldn't count on outside help from government, they

would have to play by the same rules other relgions play by, hence the

" We aren't religious. "

While on the steppers' part, they may truly believe that they have a

spiritual not religious set of beliefs which puts them in superior

contact with God and His will beyond the merely " religious " groups, and

really not see them selves as religious (as defined by their doctrine),

it is still fundamental dishonesty. That is were religion comes in.

Not as " their beliefs are wrong and they shouldn't have them " but as an

end run around Constitutional protections most all of us in this country

value.

Ken Ragge

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