Beliefs and Cleansing

[Guest guest]

Barry wrote the following in Digest Number 997:

>. As long

>as we are in a public group, your negative opposition or belief in

>our cleanses (where stones come from, stones being real, 100 of

>stones being real, etc)will be met with equal positive support(or

>opposition in your case). Debating goes two ways.

I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has

become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief.

There is no room for belief in the face of facts. Either people have

indeed been flushing out hundreds of gallstones, or they have been

flushing out something else. Either Epsom salts dilates the ducts or

it does not. These are facts that can be tested, investigated and

proved or disproved. Three is no element of faith involved.

It is as if you say that you belive that it is snowing on your

street, and your friend believes that it is a sunny day. Only one of

these can be accurate at any time, and there is no room for a set of

beliefs.

I see that there is a need for solid proofs and the dropping of the

theological approach to cleansing.

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

[Guest guest]

>>I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has

become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief.<<

I agree. Although people do choose which " facts " they want to believe, but

so what. I may choose to believe " facts " from my own experience, and what I

have learned from a different source than someone else may have gleaned

" facts " from, and that's OK. The information gets respectfully (for the

most part) shared, and people decide for themselves. What is amazing is

when people start being unkind to each other over differing views. Also, I

find it irritating when something I said is turned into something completely

different. For instance, if I state that I have a different opinion than

someone about stones forming in the liver, or that I don't think EVERYTHING

that comes out is stones, that comes back suddenly as my having said that

stones are not coming out and flushes are not worthwhile. It's as if when

someone asks a question, if someone offers an opinion differing from what

might be the majority, a few people get upset, and instead of just posting

their opinion, they have a need to say, " We shouldn't have to listen to

yours. " I do have to say though, that this does not apply to the majority

of the members.

Debra

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

I think Barry's use of the word " belief " was correct in the sense that the

opinions, of those who have posted their scepticism regarding the results of the

liver cleanse, have been based on beliefs, rather than facts. You are correct

in that people should not base their decision about the benefits and results of

the liver cleanse, on beliefs, but rather, on facts. However, it takes a step

of faith, so to speak, to step out of the regular medical mold, and accept

another conclusion, which IMO is supported by facts....hence my post about

presuppositions....which are really beliefs(based on fact or not), no?

Adrienne

" Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote: Barry wrote the following in

Digest Number 997:

>. As long

>as we are in a public group, your negative opposition or belief in

>our cleanses (where stones come from, stones being real, 100 of

>stones being real, etc)will be met with equal positive support(or

>opposition in your case). Debating goes two ways.

I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has

become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief.

There is no room for belief in the face of facts. Either people have

indeed been flushing out hundreds of gallstones, or they have been

flushing out something else. Either Epsom salts dilates the ducts or

it does not. These are facts that can be tested, investigated and

proved or disproved. Three is no element of faith involved.

It is as if you say that you belive that it is snowing on your

street, and your friend believes that it is a sunny day. Only one of

these can be accurate at any time, and there is no room for a set of

beliefs.

I see that there is a need for solid proofs and the dropping of the

theological approach to cleansing.

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

laser@... writes:

> I never stop wondering at how the subject of liver-GB cleanses has

> become a theological one, with so much emphasis on belief.

> There is no room for belief in the face of facts.

Actually, in my opinion, there is not only room, but also a NEED for belief.

It isn't a theological thing, though. Not that type of belief.

yes, the facts are there. yes - either stones are coming out or not. But

what a person believes about what they are doing can have a dramatic effect

on the results of the cleanse - even the unseen results. If you've ever

had a chance to read anything about the mind/body connection - such as the

great books by Dr. Bernie Siegel, you'd read countless examples of how the

mind impacts the body's healing.

So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that what

they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes, I can

understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about what

they believe about what they are doing.

in health,

rachel

[Guest guest]

>>what a person believes about what they are doing can have a dramatic

>>effect

on the results of the cleanse - even the unseen results.

<<

I CERTAINLY do believe this, and I understand totally what you are saying

about the mind/body connection.

Debra

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[Guest guest]

sent the following text in Digest Number 1000:

>So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

>what

>they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

>I can

>understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

>what

>they believe about what they are doing.

While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

type of " belief " that I read here every day.

That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

uncomfortable still remains in place.

These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

belief in the unknown.

" I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

that she didn't really answer my point.

And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

whom I have not mentioned.)

You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I think I understand you perfectly...however, I'll repeat myself by saying, the

facts are there...you just refuse to " believe " them. Just because Barry has not

eliminated a calcified stone, does not nullify the benefits he has received from

doing the cleanse...which he has posted numerous times about. The majority of

MD's don't " believe " in the benefits of chiropractic care, for whatever reason,

but that does not nullify the facts that are out there, for them to study and

research, which prove that chiropractic is a viable health alternative. The

difference being that chiropractic has had the money behind it to support the

scientific research necessary to prove its effectiveness. Agnes has already

posted why the medical profession would not support the research needed to

" prove " the effectiveness of the liver cleanse. All the proof you need, is to

do the liver cleanse yourself...take the " stones " to be analyzed. The proof is

in the doing of the cleanse.

Adrienne

" Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote: sent the following text in

Digest Number 1000:

>So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

>what

>they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

>I can

>understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

>what

>they believe about what they are doing.

While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

type of " belief " that I read here every day.

That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

uncomfortable still remains in place.

These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

belief in the unknown.

" I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

that she didn't really answer my point.

And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

whom I have not mentioned.)

You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed? It would seem

that that would be all anyone needed to disprove naysayers. But I still

have to wonder, where were the many stones that should have been in my liver

and gallbladder? >>

_________________

Debra, there are many who would love to have their stones analyzed. However,

in my case, I do not have the money to do it on my own, and my doctor sure

won't do it.

Do you know how to do it? If so, I'll save some up for you and you can test

them.

Also, Debra, if you go back and read some of the past posts, you'll see that

some people have tried to have theirs analyzed. In one case the doctor threw

them in the trash. There's several cases on there where either this

happened, or the person's doctor said no way!

About your liver stones, I suppose you're just a very fortunate person if you

have none. Count your blessings!

Susie

[Guest guest]

Didn't Agnes post a link to a Lancet article a while ago on a study

of flushing and gallstones? I seem to recall the study showed the test

subjects expelled cholesterol stones. >>

____________________

Liz, Dr. who wrote the book entitled " Are You Stoned? " had his tested

also. It showed they were gallstones.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Hi Ira,

I can understand your side to this situation. This list is not inclusive to the

results people have had with the cleanse/flush and so is it the expertise of the

group here that concludes this must be gallstones.....well for the list yes.

But you must also understand that to become " Naturopathic " doctor it takes as

much college as for a " allopathic " doctor, look into it, I did as I was going to

study for it. Now I think what I am trying to say is that there are

naturopathic doctors who will disagree with some of the allopathic methods and

there are allopathics who will disagree with naturopathics. What we really need

is an understanding on the part of the physician to treat the situation that

serves each individuals needs. Some people I am certain are in dire need of the

operation as it is too far gone, damaged whatever for them to turn it around,

however, there are also those that can benefit tremendously from alternative

methods of treatment. I think the medical community at large, all sides of it,

are working on changing some of what we are experiencing in the field of

medicine and that is the line between allopath/naturopath/wholisitc. Is this

anything to do with belief systems, well it really does because one group of

physicians believes they had the best training and the other believes they

did.....hmmm........I think they both have had excellent training, just that

they need to combine this training to get a " Whole/Holisitic " view thus being

able to better serve the patient.

Just some thoughts.

Peace

Lucinda

----- Original Message -----

From: Ira L. son

gallstones

Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 7:48 AM

Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing

sent the following text in Digest Number 1000:

>So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

>what

>they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

>I can

>understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

>what

>they believe about what they are doing.

While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

type of " belief " that I read here every day.

That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

uncomfortable still remains in place.

These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

belief in the unknown.

" I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

that she didn't really answer my point.

And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

whom I have not mentioned.)

You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

[Guest guest]

Could we take up a collection of a few dollars per person so someone we all

trust

could get this done? It would be very interesting, and educational. I

would think doctors would be very interested in checking them out. >>

____________________

Debra, I have a friend in the medical professional who is a RN, but she is

not doing this anymore. So this leaves her out.

Also, Debra, I do not want anybody's collection. If I ever run across a

decent open-minded doctor, I will be sure to have mine checked out. As a

matter of fact, I would love to have mine checked out.

Maybe someone else on here has tried.

Susie

[Guest guest]

2/27/2002 8:48:39 AM, " Ira L. son " <laser@...> wrote:

>You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

>with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

>treating people with the problems that you and I have.

For starters, you could sit him down and make him look at all the pictures at

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/

Now my guess is that his surgical " beliefs " will be so strong that he will

be unable to comprehend what is staring in his face. If he is really a doctor,

he should be able to look at such as the removed diseased gallbladder and

see that the stones inside are exactly like the hundreds of stones you

collected and delivered to him from your flushes. Of course, there is little

hope for him if he is of the ilk of cancer doctors who say, " Oh, there must

have been a mis-diagnosis, " when people use natural methods to defeat

cancer and then return to the office cancer-free.

>And I would

>like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Ira, exactly how many flushes have you done?

>

>Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

>clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

>

Your position is very clear. You want proof that will simply overwhelm

all those years of " belief " building that medical school taught him.

Keep in mind that there is no one so blind as someone who will

not see. And don't get sucked into the " but how can you prove it? "

baloney the trolls inject into this newsgroup.

Regards,

Rex Harrill

[Guest guest]

Ira,

You've brought up some very good points, but why are you so concerned about

convincing your doctor of any thing? I don't feel that need, thus I don't

understand the problem. I have what you disparage as a belief whether I

take the word of your doctors or the word of others who have researched in

different ways. It's intersting to me how some like your self seem to give

more credibility to what the doctors say (when they are just repeating what

they have been taught) than what others say who have come to different

conclusions. If I read a book by Hulda , and she bases what she writes

on observations and experiments, and I believe her; how is that different

than believing the doctors? Now add that to the fact that my own experiences

and observations following her protocol match her own. Now add to that my

observations and experiences of the results doctors are getting match her

observations of modern medicine. I can believe what and whom seems most

valid. You are doing the same. Just make sure you look at all the facts.

I wouldn't be concerned who agreed with me. I am more concerned with taking

responsibility for my own health.

Wishing you the best,

Vince Richter

>From: " Ira L. son " <laser@...>

>Reply-gallstones

>gallstones

>Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing

>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:48:39 +0200

>

> sent the following text in Digest Number 1000:

>

> >So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

> >what

> >they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

> >I can

> >understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

> >what

> >they believe about what they are doing.

>

>While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

>fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

>what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

>type of " belief " that I read here every day.

>

>That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

>everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

>that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

>manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

>expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

>what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

>uncomfortable still remains in place.

>

>These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

>to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

>these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

>people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

>fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

>health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

>belief in the unknown.

>

> " I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

>to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

>

>I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

>that she didn't really answer my point.

>

>And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

>me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

>for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

>the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

>investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

>bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

>belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

>read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

>correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

>believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

>still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

>offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

>whom I have not mentioned.)

>

>You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

>with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

>treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

>like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

>

>Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

>clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

>

>

>

>-----------------------

>IRA L. JACOBSON

>-----------------------

>mailto:laser@...

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Once again I see we have the mind of an engineer in debate; stones or no

stones, does diet and processes of the liver flush work to remove stones or

create them? Are stones in fact in such numbers as to be inhabiting the

liver and the gallbladder in the hundreds? Does Magnisium Sulfate (Epsom

Salts) really do anything with the bile ducts so as to help in the dilating

of the structure so as to permit the passage of large bodies of matter?

The facts are these;

Magnisum

http://www.execpc.com/~magnesum/rod16.html

The assumption that the magnisum dialates is wrong but I've not been too

concerned about that fact here because of it's overall benifit. Here you

will not only find that it really works to help the cellular elasticty but I

think the information will help in reasoning its benifit in doing a flush

and dealing with bile ducts and any inflamation or infection that may be in

them.

Stones in the liver

The fact of the matter here is the bile coagulants that are refered to as

gallstones do congest the liver as well as the gallbladder. It just simply

is called a bile stone instead of a gallstone even though they look the

same. However, unless one takes a liver and slices it into many smaller

sections it just isn't going to be possible to see the stones that are there

because of their size and the internal density of the liver compared to the

gallbladders being a sack. They are, for the most part, not all that large

in the liver so an ultrasound or an X-ray are not going to detect them as

being there, unless they are another substance other than wax, such as

calcium. An MRI however may be the best means of detection but that's pretty

cost preventative for most proceedures. For calcium or wax stones it isn't

going to be too hard for an MRI to make a detection of a biliary obstruction

called.......bile stones.

http://www.kumc.edu/instruction/medicine/pathology/ed/ch_14/c14_s28.html

The effect of bile and bile stone formation (note that it will be now a bile

stone, for engineering effectiveness of the primary property of the stones

formation) can be considered much the same as the soap purchased to wash the

dishes to clean off the fat deposits that may be there, like the fat left

from the dripping meat of a sweet and juicy hamburger that just happened to

be loaded with fat (but what else to make it so tasty and palitable). Bile

comes in quality levels much the same as the purchase of quality detergents.

Cheap detergents may require more to be poured in the water to act as a

surfactant to get the fats emusified and held in suspention, and thereby

keeping it from precipitating back to the plates or the side walls of the

sink. Quality soaps can have a better emulsifying and surfactant factor in

water for suppension of fat particles.

As regards the manufacturing of stones by the body from the consuming of oil

and citrus fruit I don't think that's going to merit any time for disucssion

as it can be easily reasoned away by the most basic of cognizance of the

process needed to produce various forms of soaps by saponification. There

are plenty of sites to check out on how to make soaps that will convince

most anyone reading them that it is time consuming and requires substantive

heat of which the human body just can not provide.

And last but, I certainly hope not the least, is the fact that I personally

went thorough the living hell that many of the posters, who come here

looking for a means of getting rid of bile stones, have gone. For seven

months I tried to learn just enough to get by with, and hopefully get rid

of, the " A " stone that my doctor reported to me as existing in my

gallblader, which was also thickened and therefore diseased and needing

removeal, or so he said, at that time. As far as I knew my stone was a

golfball but after a month of preparation I decided to take a dive into

fate, whatever that may be, to see if I couldn't get rid of that " A " stone.

At the end of 1999 I had my fourth, and to this day worst attack that sent

me to the hospital. But, interstingly enough it wasn't because of an

obstruction by a bile stone or any other obstruction for that matter. I had

a liver attack because of my ingnorance and laziness in dealing with my

condition. I had an attack in August and swore to stay away from any forms

of fats, and from that time on I did really good at staying away from fats.

So good in fact that I damaged my liver doing so. I, in my ignorance, didn't

realize this until I went to the hospital in October of that year, was stone

free, but had elevated levels of AST, ALK, ALT, and bilirubin. My liver and

gallbladder looked normal excepting enlarged bile ducts in the liver and its

damage from no fat consumption. I haven't been back to get another

ultrasound to see just how things are doing, but I'm going to have to assume

that since I've been appling what I learned from Dr. Cabot on how to eat for

my liver's benifit, and haven't had an attack in over two years, that

something must be getting done right.

One important fact was when I did vist with my doctor for the follow-up to

this last emergency visit I asked him what he thought about the fact that

there was no stone and that my gallbladder now looked healthy. His statement

to my wife and I was " You can't argue with success! " . However, some will.

Ira, if you really are looking for an answer that would be great. However, I

can't say that I've really seen you as seeking an answer because I'm of the

belief (see that word appeared here too, sorry) that you have some sort of

agenda of which I can't decide just what it is you're trying to do. Perhaps

you would be so kind as to just come right out and say just what you really

are thinking and not keep playing games with these people who have kept

trying to help you.

I can appreciate that you are an engineer. So, I know that to be of that

education you certainly have mental prowness and can more than likely really

come out with some substantive information from which to debate. I'm just

asking that you be sure to back it up with cognisant reasoning and some

facts. I wish to be convinced, and I'm sure the others here are too, that we

are wrong in doing what we've been doing to get to and to maintain better

health. But, if you think you're going to be able to find information here

that you can take to a common doctor and expect to convince him otherwise I

don't think that's going to happen. That is unless they have the demeanor of

a doctor such as Dr. Cabot. There are doctors to whom you can talk

about your liver or gallbladder condition, if in fact you have a contition

needing their care, but don't expect there to be too many who will advise an

alternative means besides surgury or some other AMA approved medication.

Ira, I'm sorry to have to say this but I find you to be wormwood to this

group. You have not supported one thing that you written with substantive

backing at to why you would be needing the information. Nor have you been

thankfull for anything that's been written to you. I've just seen bitterness

and abuse in question form. If you would like to email me in direct debate

regarding the subject of gallstones I invite you to do that. Other than that

I would only ask that you not be so high minded to the people on this group

when in fact you're seeking to do the opposite. and others here are

new to the process of liver and gallbladder cleansing and try to do good by

being encouraging but often times go overboard and are short of acuracy in

giving answers to questions that are still in debate within the medical

community, but at least they are genuinely concerned and are doing the best

they know how to do to help others who come here seeking help. You on the

other hand have found a forum for devil's advocacy and relish within that.

This sure reminds me of a Star Teck adventure regarding an entity that lived

for the day in getting things perturb.

Dale

<<<<<< sent the following text in Digest Number 1000:

>So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

>what

>they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

>I can

>understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

>what

>they believe about what they are doing.

While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

type of " belief " that I read here every day.

That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

uncomfortable still remains in place.

These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

belief in the unknown.

" I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

that she didn't really answer my point.

And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

whom I have not mentioned.)

You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

laser@... writes:

<< While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

< fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

< what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

< type of " belief " that I read here every day. >>

<smile> No, Ira, I actually got your point completely. Forgive my

bluntness, but it doesn't seem to me that you're really interested in a

discussion, but more that you are interested in pontificating. So I wasn't

answering your post, per se, but rather merely taking a turn from your post.

If you read this group regularly you'll see that happens often. People are

usually interested in exchanges of thought, but not necessarily interested in

battling out differences of perspective. I, for one, would prefer to invest

my energy in a more positive direction.

I'm sure there are others who are interested in debating the stream of doubts

that you bring up, but that's not what I'm here for. I merely gave you my

observation of what is meant by the term " belief " when it is used out here.

And to answer your last question in your post...no, I don't think anyone out

here sees things quite the way you do.

in health,

rachel~

[Guest guest]

new_man85@... writes:

<< I wouldn't be concerned who agreed with me. I am more concerned with

taking responsibility for my own health. >>

Well said, Vince!

rachel~

[Guest guest]

fairyflight@... writes:

<< This puzzles me also, as does everyone's seeming reluctance to hear that

my

< liver had no stones, and my gallbladder only had four. This is my factual

< experience, yet people get mad at me for relating it. >>

Not everyone is reluctant to hear it. I mean absolutely no disrespect when I

say this, but I, for one, am not really concerned with how many stones your

liver has or doesn't have. I'm not being unkind here, just pointing out that

nobody's out to get you because you say you had no stones in your liver and I

have never seen a post that indicated that anyone was mad at you for saying

that you didn't have any. Perhaps you're reading into things - we all

share experiences and each one is different than the next. Perhaps you have

no stones in your liver and perhaps you're the only one out here who doesn't,

but sharing that information is no problem. If you were to imply that nobody

else has stones in their liver either, then that's not appropriate.

Personally, I have no idea whether or not I have stones in my liver and it is

of no consequence to me where the stones are or what you call them as long as

they come out.

In my opinion, there is no need to defend yourself for having a stone-free

liver. Just be sure to respect the opinions and experiences of others in the

same way that you'd like them to respect yours.

just my .02

rachel~

[Guest guest]

scottherm@... writes:

<< You certainly put a lot of time into this email!

<< Thanks for the focus, >>

Just wanted to echo 's thought. Thanks, Dale, for yet another detailed

and informative post. That's one that will be referred to often!

in health,

rachel

[Guest guest]

Personally, I have no idea whether or not I have stones in my liver and it

is

of no consequence to me where the stones are or what you call them as long

as

they come out.

_______________

, very well stated.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Dale, for yet another detailed and informative post. That's one

that will be referred to often!

in health, >>

______________

Dale, I agree with here. Also, Dale, that's a very good article about

magnesium. It's a must-save!

Susie

[Guest guest]

>>. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! <<

This puzzles me also, as does everyone's seeming reluctance to hear that my

liver had no stones, and my gallbladder only had four. This is my factual

experience, yet people get mad at me for relating it.

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

>>It's intersting to me how some like your self seem to give

more credibility to what the doctors say (when they are just repeating what

they have been taught) than what others say who have come to different

conclusions. <<

I gave credibility to my doctor because he has actually seen the insides of

more gallbladders and livers than I have. I have a hard time understanding

why some folks give this type of experience no credibility. Instead they

just blow it off with the opinion that doctors have bad intentions. I am

not saying that your experiences are invalid, so please don't take it that

way. I do agree with Ira though, that some things which are discussed as

facts here may not all be totally factual. Not that the experiences are not

real, just that the results may not always be exactly what people think they

are. Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed? It would seem

that that would be all anyone needed to disprove naysayers. But I still

have to wonder, where were the many stones that should have been in my liver

and gallbladder?

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

[Guest guest]

Well explained and very clear.

Thanks for your comment.

Sam

-----Original Message-----

From: Ira L. son [mailto:laser@...]

Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 5:49 AM

gallstones

Subject: Re: Beliefs and Cleansing

sent the following text in Digest Number 1000:

>So yes, I'd say it's critically important that a person believe that

>what

>they are doing is successful and good for their health. And so yes,

>I can

>understand why there are those who feel strongly about posting about

>what

>they believe about what they are doing.

While I would find it hard to disagree with your thoughts, , i

fear you have missed my point. Of course it's good to believe that

what you are doing will be of benefit. I'm talking about another

type of " belief " that I read here every day.

That is a " belief " that Epsom salts dilate ducts. A " belief " that

everyone's liver is full of stones, when gastroenterologists tell us

that intrahepatic stones are fatal unless treated in very aggressive

manner! A " belief " that a liver cleanse causes the gall bladder to

expel stones, while Barry bemoans the fact that he has passed 100s of

what he regards as gallstones, yet the single one that makes him so

uncomfortable still remains in place.

These are the kind of beliefs that are passed on from one list member

to another, each time reinforcing these beliefs, so that everyone has

these beliefs, and they don't look for or find corroboration from

people who have studied the matter scientifically. That would be

fine in a religious discipline, but here we are dealing with the

health of each and every one of us, and many treat it as a form of

belief in the unknown.

" I've also heard that . . . . " is a recurrent theme. Can I tell this

to my doctor and expect to convince him/her?

I hope I have made my observation more clear, so that can see

that she didn't really answer my point.

And now, *why* is this pseudo-religious faith of concern to

me? Because I have to deal with medical professionals to whom I go

for help, and I would love to be able to convince them that I have

the answer. If a physician tells me, for example, that he has

investigated, dissected, treated, imaged hundreds of livers and gall

bladders and has seen none of the phenomena that all our list members

belive in, my only response can be that Adrienne told me so, that she

read it in a book written by someone who took a 100-hour

correspondence course. And that Agnes believes it, and that Barry

believes it but cannot understand why, despite all his efforts, he

still has the painful gallstone that led him to his beliefs. (No

offense to any of these people, of course, and my apologies to those

whom I have not mentioned.)

You understand that I do not have a leg to stand on in a discussion

with a physician that has devoted tens of years to studying and

treating people with the problems that you and I have. And I would

like to be rid of my stones! And I'd like to keep my gall bladder.

Is my position clear to anyone, or have I not explained myself

clearly again? Does anyone see things the way I do?

-----------------------

IRA L. JACOBSON

-----------------------

mailto:laser@...

[Guest guest]

Susie,

No, I am not capable of analyzing stones.

It just seems funny to me that with the large membership this list has, not

one person has been successful at having them analyzed. Doesn't someone

have a friend in the medical profession who can help them out? Could we

take up a collection of a few dollars per person so someone we all trust

could get this done? It would be very interesting, and educational. I

would think doctors would be very interested in checking them out.

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

I'm actually having mine analyzed as we speak. I should have the

results next week and will share them with you all. Mine were the pea

green type. A lot of " gravel " but some larger ones about 1/2 " . These

were not " hard as rock " stones, so they didn't show up on any tests that

I've had so far. I'll let you know.....- Pascucci

D B wrote:

> Has anyone ever actually had their stones analyzed?

>

> Debra

>