Hi, I'm

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I only learned this within the last year!

alisongraf@... wrote:

In a message dated 8/31/2007 6:19:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

frankoldroyd2@... writes:

This faceblind bussiness; did anyone realise that NTs read faces especially

eyes, prior to being told about it or is it just me and my brother?

It was like an epifany and really rocked my world in an unpleasent way when

I found out.

nope, i read about it in a social skills pamphlet in high school and

wondered why no one had ever told me these things before

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Guest guest]

Joanne,

If you write to Ken Nakayama and Rochard (you can contact them at

www.faceblind.org), they will give you the current stats. I based my statement

on what they told me when I participatione in their research. They tested each

of the participants for recognition of both faces, and recognition of emotions

from eyes alone. I could do neither. I asserted that it was just from being

FB, and they stated that no, it was a different thing- and that most of the

other people they ghave tested did not have this difficulty. My dad, who is FB,

does not have any trouble at all with recognition of emotions form eyes alone.

As to what you have said, it may simply be that people who are active in email

lists about certain things are more likely, for whatev er reason, to be on the

spectrum, or that our list is a small sample space!

Not too sure-- Let me know what results-

joanne ford wrote:

Princess,

same thing, NT Non Spectrum... most people who are faceblind are not on the

spectrum? Where did you get these stats? I'm willing to take a guess that most

people who are faceblind are closer to the spectrum than they will allow

themselves to think they are.

Read carefully what a lot of people say who claim (in even this group) only to

be faceblind. I see an awful lot of spectrum stuff happening along with their

faceblind stories. I mentioned that to ages ago.

Listen carefully! and if you have some stats, I'd love to see them.

jo

Re: Hi, I'm

,

That was an epiphany to me as well! On the other hand, " face blind " is an

adjective that does not refer to reading emotions at all (see www.faceblind. org

for more information) , and most of the people who are face blind are NT. It

only refers to recognizing the person. For a face blind NT, he or she would

recognize all the emotions ot the person, but just not know who the person is.

As for eyes, I am trying to learn to read the little bits that I can at

pressent- and practice what I have. I get some information from some people, but

have not tested out as NT (I was officially tested at Harvard for this, as part

of a study on something else, and the testers thought I am AS, and told me so).

My having failed to empathize in social situations where reading a face was the

primary clue led at least two people I know to ask me if I am AS. They do not

know each other, and both are NT. I think the only person who did not know how

far off I was in this area was I.

I was amazed when I learned this, that NTs can look at each other's eyes and

know how they feel, and then know how we feel. It puts a completely different

meaning to all their communications. For example, " How are you? " " Fine " now

means something completely different to me. Clearly, the NTs know how each other

is feeling, if it is a face to face conversation. So, the word " Fine " is not a

lie, but means something else. I will have to ask NTs more about this, but I

think it means that they are respecting each other's space not to share feelings

in words- not to talk about what is wrong if they do not want to- and it may

mean, " I feel as you are observing that I feel, but even though I am hurt or

scared or sad or grieved or worried orwhatever, I still have the strength to be

strong, " NTs seem to like it when another NT reads their eyes and asks, " What's

wrong " , or " How is (someone who was ill or hurt or in trouble) or another

question that relates to the

actual

feeling.

I feel better about NTs, knowing that " fine " is not meant as a lie, but takes

into account actual communication.

My dad, who is NT, thinks that I can learn to read expressions in other ways,

even without reading eyes, to compensate. I am not too sure of all he has in

mind. (As a girl, I remember the many times that he did not read me correctly,

and took my actions as disrespect when they were not. I recently learned that if

an NT melts down, it often is disrespect, whereas for me, it certainly was not.

he really did not know!) Of course, my lack of eye contact did not help. Now, it

is easy to forgive his lack of understanding- after all, given all the times I

have failed to correctly read the emotions of others, it is not as if I can

judge anyone for failing to read mine. (I guess NTs can be a bit mindblind, too.

LOL)

frank oldroyd <frankoldroyd2@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

This faceblind bussiness; did anyone realise that NTs read faces especially

eyes, prior to being told about it or is it just me and my brother?

It was like an epifany and really rocked my world in an unpleasent way when I

found out.

" P.C. MacNeil " <msp@.... ca> wrote:

Hey , welcome.

a

> (Re-posted to avoid convusion-- Kassiane and I used the same title!

> Great minds think alike : ~ ) )

>

> Hi

>

> First, I want to say hello to all my friends on the faceblind lists!

> Thanks for your input- it helped me get here. : ~ )

>

> I self-diagnosed as AS a couple of days ago, after extensive

> reflection and reading, and after emailing one AS friend, and

> talking with a number of NTs who either thought I am or that I might

> be. I feel relief and an incredible joy in knowing that many of my

> social errors, which I felt so convicted over and so horrible about,

> are explained by the way my brain functions. Of course I did not

> know the " rules " . And, of course, it was much harder- perhaps

> thousands of times harder- for me to " have self control " (referring

> to crying or yelling or otherwise being out of control emotionally)

> in certain

> situations than it is for an NT.

>

> I was in denial for years that I was anything other than normal,

> because I had been trained by experience that to be abnormal meant

> to risk forfeiting rights and to lose credibility. I am glad that I

> considered what I read and what people I trusted were saying.

>

> Now, I am learning what it means to be this way- that there is good

> in not being NT. I can remember day to day events back into baby-

> hood, but I believe that this is hard for an NT, because when I

> think of a painful experience, my eyes and face show it, and then NT

> people around me are a bit uncomfortable if they do not know me

> well. I just learned about this, because I do not read anyone's

> eyes very well, and cannot read any but the most basic of emotions

> from a face. Having given myself the freedom to recall memories all

> my life, and to think unpleasant thoughts when I needed to for

> reflection or planning, I cannot imagine denying myself that

> flexibility.

>

> I thank God for creating me according to His will, and trust that He

> knows perfectly well what He is doing. It has been the desire of my

> heart to be " normal " since I was about 9 years old. The desire of

> my heart has changed- I am myself, and it is excellent. I have

> learned in a matter of a few days to forgive the very things I hated

> the most about myself, and to accept what I am. I am eager to meet

> all of you- to learn and to try to connect. And, I am waiting to

> have any pre-conceived ideas broken, if I possess any.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I feel the same way about people who are " only touch sensitive " as in

parents who can't bear an autism

dx so they take the kid around till they get a dx that is ''touch

sensitivity syndrome'' or some such thing. Same thing with noise

sensitivity.

theyre closer to being on the spectrum than they lead themselves to believe

too. or will allow themselves

to believe,

k

>

> Princess,

>

> same thing, NT Non Spectrum... most people who are faceblind are not on

> the spectrum? Where did you get these stats? I'm willing to take a guess

> that most people who are faceblind are closer to the spectrum than they will

> allow themselves to think they are.

>

> Read carefully what a lot of people say who claim (in even this group)

> only to be faceblind. I see an awful lot of spectrum stuff happening along

> with their faceblind stories. I mentioned that to ages ago.

>

> Listen carefully! and if you have some stats, I'd love to see them.

>

> jo

>

> Re: Hi, I'm

>

> ,

>

> That was an epiphany to me as well! On the other hand, " face blind " is an

> adjective that does not refer to reading emotions at all (see

> www.faceblind. org for more information) , and most of the people who are

> face blind are NT. It only refers to recognizing the person. For a face

> blind NT, he or she would recognize all the emotions ot the person, but just

> not know who the person is.

>

> As for eyes, I am trying to learn to read the little bits that I can at

> pressent- and practice what I have. I get some information from some people,

> but have not tested out as NT (I was officially tested at Harvard for this,

> as part of a study on something else, and the testers thought I am AS, and

> told me so). My having failed to empathize in social situations where

> reading a face was the primary clue led at least two people I know to ask me

> if I am AS. They do not know each other, and both are NT. I think the only

> person who did not know how far off I was in this area was I.

>

> I was amazed when I learned this, that NTs can look at each other's eyes

> and know how they feel, and then know how we feel. It puts a completely

> different meaning to all their communications. For example, " How are you? "

> " Fine " now means something completely different to me. Clearly, the NTs know

> how each other is feeling, if it is a face to face conversation. So, the

> word " Fine " is not a lie, but means something else. I will have to ask NTs

> more about this, but I think it means that they are respecting each other's

> space not to share feelings in words- not to talk about what is wrong if

> they do not want to- and it may mean, " I feel as you are observing that I

> feel, but even though I am hurt or scared or sad or grieved or worried

> orwhatever, I still have the strength to be strong, " NTs seem to like it

> when another NT reads their eyes and asks, " What's wrong " , or " How is

> (someone who was ill or hurt or in trouble) or another question that relates

> to the

> actual

> feeling.

>

> I feel better about NTs, knowing that " fine " is not meant as a lie, but

> takes into account actual communication.

>

> My dad, who is NT, thinks that I can learn to read expressions in other

> ways, even without reading eyes, to compensate. I am not too sure of all he

> has in mind. (As a girl, I remember the many times that he did not read me

> correctly, and took my actions as disrespect when they were not. I recently

> learned that if an NT melts down, it often is disrespect, whereas for me, it

> certainly was not. he really did not know!) Of course, my lack of eye

> contact did not help. Now, it is easy to forgive his lack of understanding-

> after all, given all the times I have failed to correctly read the emotions

> of others, it is not as if I can judge anyone for failing to read mine. (I

> guess NTs can be a bit mindblind, too. LOL)

>

>

>

> frank oldroyd <frankoldroyd2@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

> This faceblind bussiness; did anyone realise that NTs read faces

> especially eyes, prior to being told about it or is it just me and my

> brother?

> It was like an epifany and really rocked my world in an unpleasent way

> when I found out.

>

>

> " P.C. MacNeil " <msp@... <msp%40ns.sympatico>. ca> wrote:

> Hey , welcome.

>

> a

>

>

> > (Re-posted to avoid convusion-- Kassiane and I used the same title!

> > Great minds think alike : ~ ) )

> >

> > Hi

> >

> > First, I want to say hello to all my friends on the faceblind lists!

> > Thanks for your input- it helped me get here. : ~ )

> >

> > I self-diagnosed as AS a couple of days ago, after extensive

> > reflection and reading, and after emailing one AS friend, and

> > talking with a number of NTs who either thought I am or that I might

> > be. I feel relief and an incredible joy in knowing that many of my

> > social errors, which I felt so convicted over and so horrible about,

> > are explained by the way my brain functions. Of course I did not

> > know the " rules " . And, of course, it was much harder- perhaps

> > thousands of times harder- for me to " have self control " (referring

> > to crying or yelling or otherwise being out of control emotionally)

> > in certain

> > situations than it is for an NT.

> >

> > I was in denial for years that I was anything other than normal,

> > because I had been trained by experience that to be abnormal meant

> > to risk forfeiting rights and to lose credibility. I am glad that I

> > considered what I read and what people I trusted were saying.

> >

> > Now, I am learning what it means to be this way- that there is good

> > in not being NT. I can remember day to day events back into baby-

> > hood, but I believe that this is hard for an NT, because when I

> > think of a painful experience, my eyes and face show it, and then NT

> > people around me are a bit uncomfortable if they do not know me

> > well. I just learned about this, because I do not read anyone's

> > eyes very well, and cannot read any but the most basic of emotions

> > from a face. Having given myself the freedom to recall memories all

> > my life, and to think unpleasant thoughts when I needed to for

> > reflection or planning, I cannot imagine denying myself that

> > flexibility.

> >

> > I thank God for creating me according to His will, and trust that He

> > knows perfectly well what He is doing. It has been the desire of my

> > heart to be " normal " since I was about 9 years old. The desire of

> > my heart has changed- I am myself, and it is excellent. I have

> > learned in a matter of a few days to forgive the very things I hated

> > the most about myself, and to accept what I am. I am eager to meet

> > all of you- to learn and to try to connect. And, I am waiting to

> > have any pre-conceived ideas broken, if I possess any.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is that, but there's also autistic 'cousins' who probably

shouldn't be considered spectrum, but certainly have stuff in common

with autistics. Such as my brother, whose social interaction is

pretty typical, and has lots of friends, but has sensory differences,

long attention span and intense interests. He isn't exactly NT, but

neither is he on the spectrum (despite what his teacher, who

thinks 'doesn't get along with class bully'=social impairment,

insists).

Ettina

> >

> > > (Re-posted to avoid convusion-- Kassiane and I used the same

title!

> > > Great minds think alike : ~ ) )

> > >

> > > Hi

> > >

> > > First, I want to say hello to all my friends on the faceblind

lists!

> > > Thanks for your input- it helped me get here. : ~ )

> > >

> > > I self-diagnosed as AS a couple of days ago, after extensive

> > > reflection and reading, and after emailing one AS friend, and

> > > talking with a number of NTs who either thought I am or that I

might

> > > be. I feel relief and an incredible joy in knowing that many of

my

> > > social errors, which I felt so convicted over and so horrible

about,

> > > are explained by the way my brain functions. Of course I did not

> > > know the " rules " . And, of course, it was much harder- perhaps

> > > thousands of times harder- for me to " have self control "

(referring

> > > to crying or yelling or otherwise being out of control

emotionally)

> > > in certain

> > > situations than it is for an NT.

> > >

> > > I was in denial for years that I was anything other than normal,

> > > because I had been trained by experience that to be abnormal

meant

> > > to risk forfeiting rights and to lose credibility. I am glad

that I

> > > considered what I read and what people I trusted were saying.

> > >

> > > Now, I am learning what it means to be this way- that there is

good

> > > in not being NT. I can remember day to day events back into

baby-

> > > hood, but I believe that this is hard for an NT, because when I

> > > think of a painful experience, my eyes and face show it, and

then NT

> > > people around me are a bit uncomfortable if they do not know me

> > > well. I just learned about this, because I do not read anyone's

> > > eyes very well, and cannot read any but the most basic of

emotions

> > > from a face. Having given myself the freedom to recall memories

all

> > > my life, and to think unpleasant thoughts when I needed to for

> > > reflection or planning, I cannot imagine denying myself that

> > > flexibility.

> > >

> > > I thank God for creating me according to His will, and trust

that He

> > > knows perfectly well what He is doing. It has been the desire

of my

> > > heart to be " normal " since I was about 9 years old. The desire

of

> > > my heart has changed- I am myself, and it is excellent. I have

> > > learned in a matter of a few days to forgive the very things I

hated

> > > the most about myself, and to accept what I am. I am eager to

meet

> > > all of you- to learn and to try to connect. And, I am waiting to

> > > have any pre-conceived ideas broken, if I possess any.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No, it's not perfect, but it's better than autistics. I'm quite good

at reading cat nonverbal signals, but even so I sometimes am

surprised by my cats' emotions. For example one cat giving very

slight signs of annoyance suddenly starting to growl and act very

angry.

But I am often surprised to discover just how much NTs can read of

each other's expressions. I can't do it that well. For example, some

guy may be flirting with me and I don't notice at all, whereas to my

mother it's obvious.

Ettina

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Princess " <creativelywired@ yahoo.com>

> >

> > I was amazed when I learned this, that NTs can look at each

other's eyes

> > and know how they feel, and then know how we feel. It puts a

completely

> > different meaning to all their communications. For example, " How

are

> > you? " " Fine " now means something completely different to me.

Clearly,

> > the NTs know how each other is feeling, if it is a face to face

> > conversation. So, the word " Fine " is not a lie, but means

something else.

>

> ***I have a huge problem with this " How are you? - Fine! " scenario.

It

> irritates me to no end. At work I must play the game but it wears

me down.

> I'm always tired, due to insomnia and always in some type of pain,

so I'm

> not 'fine', but I have to lie. Then people will say " Good! " and I

want to

> scream!

>

> NTs seem to like it when another NT reads their eyes and

asks, " What's

> wrong " , or " How is (someone who was ill or hurt or in trouble) or

another

> question that relates to the actual

> > feeling.

> >

> > I feel better about NTs, knowing that " fine " is not meant as a

lie, but

> > takes into account actual communication.

>

> ***I didn't know that.

>

> \\\When you say, " Fine " , you are actually telling the truth,

because NTs can read your feelings in your eyes. If you look at their

eyes, then you are making it easier for them to read yours, and then,

you are being very honest, because your body language is saying it

all. They see how overwhelmed you are. They do not understand why you

are overwhelmed, but they know that you are, and they have to care-

they are wired for that, just like we are wired the way we are.

>

>

> >

> > My dad, who is NT, thinks that I can learn to read expressions in

other

> > ways, even without reading eyes, to compensate. I am not too sure

of all

> > he has in mind. (As a girl, I remember the many times that he did

not

> > read me correctly, and took my actions as disrespect when they

were not.

> > I recently learned that if an NT melts down, it often is

disrespect,

> > whereas for me, it certainly was not. he really did not know!) Of

> > course, my lack of eye contact did not help. Now, it is easy to

forgive

> > his lack of understanding- after all, given all the times I have

failed to

> > correctly read the emotions of others, it is not as if I can

judge anyone

> > for failing to read mine. (I guess NTs can be a bit mindblind,

too. LOL)

>

> ***Oh yes. Most NTs don't understand when I try to tell them how

overwhelmed

> I sometimes feel, how some things bother me that don't faze others.

And then

> they say we lack empathy?

>

> D.

>

> \\\I feel overwhelmed by too many of something at one time, too. I

am trying to work on what an aspie friend calls " executive

functioning " - maybe it will make me feel less overwhelmed.

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel

today!

>

>

[Guest guest]

If teachers are mistaking sensory issues, attention span/intense

interests, and probably a lack of " social graces " with those who annoy

him or that are annoyed by him (e.g. the bully you mentioned) or with

authority structure (she won't say it, but that's my guess) for autism,

when, by your observation, he has lots of friends and gets along well

with most peers, the problem is that " too little information is

dangerous. " There is so much for teachers to know about now, and so

little time to keep up with all the literature. In-service trainings

usually focus on district curriculum, instructional methods for pre-

programmed curriculum, and procedures. Have they consutled with a

district special educator who specializes in autistic instruction,

before developing their " opinion " ?

If the topic comes up again in the future, or even now if you feel like

it, get him have a full work-up with a private psychologist your family

already trusts. If he/she says " high-functioning Aspergers (or PDD), "

then believe him ... autism is truly a spectrum and things you might

not catch because it's so natural in your home or family might be very

clear in other environments to other people. In this way, either you

have something to show the school to quiet them (e.g. normal, highly-

focused, no-nonsense personality type who will confront rather than

retreat in power struggles), OR you can have a better picture for

yourself about what challenges he might be facing. These things are not

a severity contest, and mild issues are still issues.

If he's " not exactly NT " then you are already aware that he is having

some difficulties/differences from the norm, whether they stem from

autism physiology or some other source ... and the political concept

driving education policy in the country is that everyone should be

brought to the norm. It is Procrustes' bed,the Greek myth of the

innkeeper who stretched short people and chopped of the legs of tall

people to make them fit his guest beds.

Therefore, autism-spectrum or not, the school will be tied in knots

about his differences, especially if they are affecting his learning

ability, or his or others' ability to perform adequately in the

learning environment (e.g. confrontations with agressive peers).

Knowing where they're coming from, and how the laws and court decisions

of our country drive school policy and practice, means you can

understand their concerns better. Don't take what the school says or

does personally.

>

> There is that, but there's also autistic 'cousins' who probably

> shouldn't be considered spectrum, but certainly have stuff in common

> with autistics. Such as my brother, whose social interaction is

> pretty typical, and has lots of friends, but has sensory differences,

> long attention span and intense interests. He isn't exactly NT, but

> neither is he on the spectrum (despite what his teacher, who

> thinks 'doesn't get along with class bully'=social impairment,

> insists).

> Ettina