Re: Character assasination

March 17, 2008

I think it has more to do with what is considered choice versus what is

pathology. So many people wonder what actions are personal free will choice,

what is the mental affliction, what is the nature. or what is nurture.

My stance on it is this: Unless we are certifiably insane and cannot possibly

determine right from wrong we must be held accountable for our actions. Some

people were abused and grow up to abuse; I believe these people became attracted

to the idea of power, they learned that violence against the vulnerable was a

cheap way to attain the illusion of power. I believe these people are cowards

and, as cowards, they pick on the vulnerable. After all, the last thing a coward

wants is a fair fight.

Then there are those that were abused and, due to personal choice, chose to

become more compassionate and refused to abuse others. Those are the truly brave

individuals.

It annoys me when criminals claim an abusive childhood as the reason they

damaged society. Yes, some abuse can be so traumatic that it can literally

damage our sanity but, most of the time, we still are able to determine right

from wrong. Bottom line is, those that continued the cycle of abuse took the

selfish way out, those that broke the cycle are brave warriors for good.

Wilkinson wrote:

I suppose that in their own sick way that is how they get control. Kind of the

Lord of the Flies for parents. They were abused so they are taught that it is ok

to abuse. What gets me is that there are many many people who are abused and

then don't go on to do that to their children. It is as if there is a crazy

switch that is turned on or off depending on the circumstances.. Some part of

you says that it is not ok and that the people who are telling you that it is

are liars. It is despicable for any adult to do that to a child. I also do not

believe that anyone who crosses that line is redeemable. In my eyes if they are

not in jail they should not be left alone with any child and they should be told

that if they go near a child their next action would be to plead guilty in

court.

What I am going to ask is very sensitive question and if I am off base you let

me know. But do you think that the reason your mother did not stop what was

going on with you and you sister is because she was trying to buy your

Grandfada's affection? That the two of you were gifts to keep her tenuous

relationship with him? It absolutely turns my stomach to even think about it,

but it does explain her reaction when you told her what had happened and she

blew you off. Your Nada is a very disturbed person and in a way it is not her

fault that she is disturbed. It is her fault that she did not do more to protect

you. You assume that she has guilt about what she has done and said, I hate to

tell you that but I don't think she does. If she had guilt she would be trying

to do what is right by you, and she is not. She is disconnected from her

responsibilities as a parent. Amazing. No doubt that parts of her emotional make

up died when she was molested. Don't let

that happen to you.

I am so sorry this happened to you. It is not fair. But I do believe in Karma,

what goes around comes around. Look at it this way the more progress you make

the less significant they become. You can never forget what happened, but you

can be strong enough to let it not control you. Keep working on it. Be strong.

You will get there, once you decide where there is.

Re: Character assasination

I think it's crazy but it's a different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath) .

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed. ..when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multiple

personality. ..there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing. ..those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/new

search/category.php?category=shopping

March 17, 2008

That is what Narc/Socio do. They have their atennas tuned to the one thing that

can dissuade their behavior, that being " consequences " Remember that N/BP/SO are

always playing to the crowd, except when it is a crowd that they feel has no

potential power over them (children, the vulnerable). Narc are " high on the lie "

and with every new group there is a new lie to display. Have you noticed that

most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered when first meeting a new person?

They seem almost generous with their ability to let others talk and they will

listen. That serves the main purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people

out " in order to know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more

than a way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

mayalisa728 wrote: I think it's crazy but it's

a different kind of crazy than what we

are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath).

Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

and are ill-groomed...when those are the extreme cases and the far

more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multple

personality...there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

wrong-doing...those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

---------------------------------

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

March 17, 2008

What is mpd? Oh sorry, it's multiple personality disorder. Yeah, N/BPs seem to

have that but it is a voluntary shifting into a new person. They want to be the

personality that will service their particular whim at that moment.

mayalisa728 wrote: I can relate to this:

then when she's done and she gets out of the car, it's like

> nothing ever happened. WTF?!!?!??!??!

>

When I first got into recovery from alcoholism there was a while where

I thought maybe my mother was mpd or something like that, just because

of these weird 'blanks' she would have.

---------------------------------

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

March 17, 2008

re your last paragraph, i doubt my mom has any multiple personalities.

she probably has faulty wiring where memory is concerned. and

knowing what is and isn't accepted? i think that's probably learned

behavior. i know my mom had a heckuva childhood and her mom is

COMPLETELY hung up on appearances (even though she blames her obesity

on my mom...very very strange dynamic there). and she doesn't really

seem to know that you can get mad about something and you don't have

to go to extreme madness.

example: my husband was doing the laundry (which he always does...i am

a very lucky girl) and i noticed that he had hung one of my new

sweaters out to dry. at first, i thought JESUSFARKINGCHRIST my

DADGUMNEWSWEATERISRUINED!!! like, my brain jumped there faster than

you could say fast. but then i thought, well, this is the first

sweater made out of wool that i've actually owned and he probably

didn't read the label and after all, it is just a sweater...nothing to

ruin someone's day over.

and then i thought...wow...it's just a sweater...NOTHING TO RUIN

SOMEONE'S DAY OVER...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

so instead of getting mad at him, i went in and said, " hey babe, i

know you're doing the laundry and i like that you do the laundry, but

you have to lay out sweaters flat or they'll get all stretched out.

i'll just wash this one again and see if it goes back to the right

shape. " he still felt bad about this and i was very glad he didn't

have a mom like mine because he would have been DESTROYED.

um, tangent?

NO! I REMEMBER MY POINT! my mom doesn't seem to have the ability to

take a step back and separate what she's feeling from what the

appropriate response to the situation should be. she doesn't fear

children's responses, but she does fear adults' responses, so that's

probably why she can react one way in public and another in private.

bink

>

> I think it's crazy but it's a different kind of crazy than what we

> are taught about growing up. The further into this work I get the

> more furious I get that we aren't even taught to watch for and

> discern for sociopaths when we are young/er. 1 out of 20 people is a

> sociopath. Bpds and npds act like sociopaths to the point that

> sometimes you can't tell the difference. I read somewhere that as

> far as borderline that is why it's called that, because it is on the

> border between a narcissist and a full-blown sociopath (psychopath).

> Someone correct me if I have that wrong. And then there is the thing

> of thinking that sociopaths are all serial killers. Most are not,

> most aren't even criminals. And of thinking that crazy people drool

> and are ill-groomed...when those are the extreme cases and the far

> more dangerous crazy person, most of the time, is the one that looks

> good, smells okay, dresses well, is well-spoken and charming and has

> no conscience whatsoever. This is something I can't believe I never

> learned about...all this time thinking it was me and I guess I

> deserved this. Only after this last year of drawing several into my

> life at once and being hurt by their behavior did I finally

> say 'something really messed up is going on here'.

>

> I sometimes wonder reading these posts if it's possible the mothers

> who flipped back and forth mood-wise so much are multple

> personality...there is a new name for that now, I can't remember it.

> How is it that they are able to be crazy yet know that it is okay to

> torment their children as long as they keep their appearance to the

> outside world. How is it they can torment their children and live

> with the guilt? How is it that they can be so absolutely insane to

> their kids and so without any understanding of what parenting is but

> be so astute as to be able to discern almost perfectly exactly how

> to toe the line with the outside world so as not to be suspected of

> wrong-doing...those two things seem so contradictory to me and yet

> they are present in the same person; someone who is a very quick-

> study and a master manipulator but seems incapable of approximating,

> even remotely, normal parenting behavior. Sorry I have no answers I

> am just thinking out loud and pretty incredulous.

>

March 17, 2008

Thanks . Not trying to sound like my issues are worse than anyone else's,

dammit though, I need to hear that healthy parents don't pull those kind of

stunts.

I hope that everything works out with your " relatives " on YOUR terms and that

you are surrounded ONLY by people that treat you with respect. You deserve it.

I've had to cut ties with some " relatives " for my own safety so I understand the

challenge.

Keep taking care of yourself and your son!

Wilkinson wrote:

Not only yes, but hell yes. This is in no way normal behavior. Admit that you

were trained to react the way you are reacting. You have some real work ahead of

you to try and decouple your behavior and reactions from what your mother did to

you. DID to you. She did this for her own reasons which you may NEVER be able to

understand. Work on getting distance between you and this abhorrent behavior. As

for attracting the wrong sort of people. My God what else do you know? Honey,

you have my deepest sympathies for what you are going through. Be good to

yourself. I cannot even begin to understand what it may be like to walk in your

shoes, but if any of us can pull ourselves out of that hole so can you. For me

the first step was letting go of the illusions I had about my family. That if

only I were " better, " what ever that meant, that my family would be better. Not

gonna happen. You can renegotiate your relationships on you terms. It is up to

your family to

either accept or reject it, but that is their problem not yours.

Right now I am working on letting my brother go for good. I don't like the way

he treats me and I really don't like the way he treats my son. Not going to put

up with it and not going to let anyone hurt my son. Fortunately my mother and I

are renegotiating our relationship, but I am not hopeful that it will turn out

all right. I can't be because I have been let down so many times before. We will

see what will happen.

When you finally accept that you deserve to be treated better you will seek out

people who will treat you better. You deserve to be treated better in every

respect. I think there are healthy people and people who get healthy and that is

a part of growing up. Here is my idea of healthy: it doesn't hurt and you have

nothing to explain if there is nothing to explain.

Be strong.

Re: Re: Character assasination

I'm in a bad place regarding all of this right now. I began therapy several

months ago..it has helped but I'm still in the painful healing process.

My main wound that must heal is that I have developed an absolute terror of

other people. Really, it has been destructive to my functioning as a productive

member of society. Here's the situation:

My Nada would do the cruelest abuses she could think of (having fake heart

attacks, beating me without any warning or provocation, horrible character

assassination, and one psycho episode after the next). She would do all of that

in private without witnesses but, the SECOND any member of the " public " showed

up, she would immediately become " saintly " .

Here's one example: She would often have her fake heart attacks. I had already

learned not to call the paramedics when she did that (the first time I tried to

call for help she forced me intro a choke hold and then dragged me around the

kitchen floor by my hair). Imagine this: A supposed grown woman was on the floor

in fake convulsions, frothing at the mouth. The phone then rang and, like

nothing had happened at all, she immediately got up and answered the phone. She

sounded so sweet and calm. She often changed her demeanor like a light switch.

Another example: She would rage while driving to church. She would scream

obscenities at small kids but, the SECOND, her foot hit the church parking lot,

she became " saintly " again. I would watch her as she went up to get Communion

(for those that aren't Catholic, it is a mortal sin to accept Communion without

confession. She obviously didn't consider screaming obscenities at children to

be sinful at all). I almost expected her head to spin around like the " Exorcist "

movie when she blessed herself with Holy Water or took Communion. It is terrible

when you live with a " mother " who really is just Satan's Sadistic Sister.

How did all that affect me? I don't trust anyone. The sweeter a person is the

more uncomfortable I am around them. I don't have any personal friendships

anymore because the terror of " waiting for the attack " is too much to handle.

Ironically, I can handle myself well in superficial situations. I am a kind,

respectful, and trustworthy person. Other people have noticed that and have

offered their friendships to me. The moment they ask me to socialize with them I

find excuses not to go because I am terrified that they will hurt me. I am

terrified that they are sadists that are scheming to attack when I am

vulnerable.

How do I heal from this? It has sabotaged my career,my mental health, and my

life. I want to heal but I don't know how. Do any of you feel that way? How did

you cope?

sboothdaniels wrote:

I am sooo in that place right now. While therapy has been incredibly

supportive and discovering the real issues of my Nada have been

helpful all of this has also slammed me wide awake to the patterns

(although less) that I have learned through my nadas behavior.

Forgiveness and giving myself a break is not coming easy. I feel

horrible for some of the things I have put my husband through and yes

I do feel in my gut I am to completely blame even though it was a

dynamic. It's that black and white thing all over the right and

wrong. I am doing so much better in my relationships now and yet

still can't find the acceptance button. How come the rewind and play

back buttons are so easy to find? and the darn eject button never

works? Sorry you are having a troubled day Mercy.

Suebee

> >

> > I say as KO's we should be forgiven for our paranoia just a little.

> >

> > Carla

>

------------ --------- --------- ---

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

March 17, 2008

>

> Have you noticed that most Narc are usually quiet and mild mannered

when first meeting a new person? They seem almost generous with their

ability to let others talk and they will listen. That serves the main

purpose of Narc.They are attempting to " feel people out " in order to

know how/if they can manipulate/abuse them. It is nothing more than a

way of distinguishing prey or categorizing people.

>

scary...i totally do this. i think i do it to keep myself from

getting screwed over by people, but it is incredibly strange how much

information most people are willing to volunteer to a stranger...and

given my ability to read people and tell whether they are lying or not

AND interpret their reactions to thing fairly accurately, i can have a

pretty good workup of that person in a very short amount of time which

is usually right. i make it a point never to tell anyone anything

that i think they can use against me, no matter how good at listening

they are.

March 17, 2008

The difference is that you don't use it towards malignant purposes. Interesting

but have you ever noticed that its the same methods used towards a different

purpose? For example: The same psychological tricks advertisers use to

manipulate us into a bad idea are the same tactics used to excite people into a

good idea. The same tactics the police use to stake out a criminals house are

the same tactics the criminals use to stalk a person? Maybe its just me, but I

have noticed that its the same stuff used towards a different goal.

bink1227 wrote: