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Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

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Posted
Posted

It's an honor on so many levels to be privy to THAT much pain, struggle. Lots

of what I'd call unhealthy, unfortunate stuff going on too. Stuff that I tend to

see as not productive and even counter-productive to the goals of gaining and

keeping sobriety and living honestly, meaningfully, freely. If I hadn't had ACT

processes in place along with specific guidance from folks that help me make the

most, I might have cut and run like i did before.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > more

> > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > successful

> > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a

> > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > much it

> > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still

> > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would

> > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills

> > me

> > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met

> > me

> > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good

> > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the

> > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > kill

> > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > >>> me....right?

> > > >>>

> > > >>> LOu

> > > >>>

> > > >>> ...

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

And of course they have a saying for every occasion. Allow me to share two: " There are two things you'll find at every meeting: coffee and insane alcoholics. And some meetings don't have coffee. "

....and " If you like everyone you meet in program, you're not going to enough meetings. " Jim

 

It's an honor on so many levels to be privy to THAT much pain, struggle. Lots of what I'd call unhealthy, unfortunate stuff going on too. Stuff that I tend to see as not productive and even counter-productive to the goals of gaining and keeping sobriety and living honestly, meaningfully, freely. If I hadn't had ACT processes in place along with specific guidance from folks that help me make the most, I might have cut and run like i did before.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > more

> > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > successful

> > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a

> > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > much it

> > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still

> > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would

> > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills

> > me

> > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met

> > me

> > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good

> > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the

> > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > kill

> > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > >>> me....right?

> > > >>>

> > > >>> LOu

> > > >>>

> > > >>> ...

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Yes, for every occasion, every thought. You choose. (Hadn't heard those two

yet). :-)

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > > > more

> > > > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > > > successful

> > > > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a

> > > > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > > > much it

> > > > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still

> > > > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would

> > > > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills

> > > > me

> > > > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met

> > > > me

> > > > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good

> > > > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the

> > > > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > > > kill

> > > > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > > > >>> me....right?

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> LOu

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> ...

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Mind if I asked what the unhelpful things you noticed were?

 

Yes, for every occasion, every thought. You choose. (Hadn't heard those two yet). :-)

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > > > more

> > > > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > > > successful

> > > > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a

> > > > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > > > much it

> > > > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still

> > > > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would

> > > > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills

> > > > me

> > > > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met

> > > > me

> > > > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good

> > > > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the

> > > > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > > > kill

> > > > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > > > >>> me....right?

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> LOu

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> ...

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Thanks for the question, but really don't think it useful now to detail what

I've seen that has made me uncomfortable. It's not that it's a secret, just

that's it's mostly my mind looking for " good reasons " to cut and run. And so

today I choose not to feed that. I fed that horrible ugly voice for months and

months on the internet with anti-12 step groups, until I was worn down and

noticed i had all these great arguments and I was still pouring toxins into my

body. For the most part, as I said, it's a surprising, amazing gift.

kind regards,

terry

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > > > > > more

> > > > > > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be

> > drunk a

> > > > > > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > > > > > much it

> > > > > > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I

> > still

> > > > > > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others

> > would

> > > > > > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind

> > kills

> > > > > > me

> > > > > > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > > > > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > > > > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've

> > met

> > > > > > me

> > > > > > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.)

> > Good

> > > > > > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at

> > the

> > > > > > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > > > > > >>> me....right?

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> LOu

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>> ...

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

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Posted

I'd add I've learned with the ACT processes even in spite of--and maybe because

of-- all the " uncomfortable stuff " that comes and goes, I'm stronger,

better,freer, growing. I guess it's just a lot like life that way. Passengers

on the bus, you know? Turns out I'm one of them too. I'm the obnoxious Aunt you

didn't invite to your party. And I'm the host. And...

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be

> > > drunk a

> > > > > > > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > > > > > > much it

> > > > > > > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I

> > > still

> > > > > > > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others

> > > would

> > > > > > > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind

> > > kills

> > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is

no

> > > > > > > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > > > > > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've

> > > met

> > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.)

> > > Good

> > > > > > > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at

> > > the

> > > > > > > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or

they

> > > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > > > > > > >>> me....right?

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> LOu

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>> ...

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>>

> > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

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Not sure which meetings you've been going to all these years, but the ones I've

gone to (plenty in recent months) are fairly consistent with having pretty bad

coffee.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that

> > more

> > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are

> > successful

> > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a

> > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so

> > much it

> > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still

> > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would

> > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills

> > me

> > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no

> > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow

> > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met

> > me

> > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good

> > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the

> > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they

> > kill

> > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill

> > > >>> me....right?

> > > >>>

> > > >>> LOu

> > > >>>

> > > >>> ...

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

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I didn't say it was good coffee. I said I liked it.Jim Not sure which meetings you've been going to all these years, but the ones I've gone to (plenty in recent months) are fairly consistent with having pretty bad coffee. > > > >>> > > > >>> Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that > > more > > > >>> than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are > > successful > > > >>> in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a > > > >>> lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so > > much it > > > >>> makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still > > > >>> feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would > > > >>> put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that.... > > > >>> > > > >>> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills > > me > > > >>> before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no > > > >>> responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow > > > >>> dickhead! Don't be so stupid! > > > >>> > > > >>> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met > > me > > > >>> before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good > > > >>> luck my commerads, I move with you too. > > > >>> > > > >>> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the > > > >>> online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they > > kill > > > >>> me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill > > > >>> me....right? > > > >>> > > > >>> LOu > > > >>> > > > >>> ... > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Designer | Developerhttp://www.jryanportfolio.com

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Wow, that's huge. I really wish folks would talk about their process more here--what it was like and how you got to a place of letting go.I mean, isn't that what we're here for to a large extent? To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:48 AM Subject: Re:

It's 'easy' to get lost

Thank you, Helena. I quit both as well, 1999 and 2002-ish: cold turkey and taper, respectively. I am quit comfortable without either now, but I also believe that each situation must be responded to as a unique one.D

My method for quitting both cigarettes (1999) and alcohol (2011) was "cold turkey" along with a lot of reading and practice of mindfulness. I realize that doesn't work for everyone, especially those with deeply ingrained additions who probably can't use at all in order to get well; outside support is most likely needed.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do drink wine at times, like on Christmas Day at my friend's house. I just don't drink when I'm alone and never because I'm lonely or sad, which was my escape crutch for years - and it compounded my loneliness and sense of worthlessness, followed by shame the next day.

I live alone, and I choose to not bring booze into my home (along with potato chips!) unless I'm entertaining. When I choose to drink, it is in celebration with others. It has made a huge difference in the quality of my life and in my progress with ACT (living my values). I'm not suggesting that everyone must do as I do in order to live according to your values; some folks can probably drink alone with no ill effects. This is just what works for me.

Helena

From: "Darrell King" <DarrellGKinggmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:46:50 AMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

I have noticed that many who have been there and walked away can have strong bondings with the methods they used, even to the point of feeling fused with and defensive about them. This makes sense when I think about it.

One of my own strong feelings is reflected in your comments about public lists, Helena. I ran a very busy list for years and I always held that it wa like a sidewalk cafe where anyone could wander in and join any conversation. Such was the nature of the space.

D

Hi Jim,

You agree with this sentence, then: "Maybe it is, and I should let Lou speak for herself, of course."

It sounds like you think I should have kept my mouth shut - and you may be right - too late now. But expressing my opinons does not keep Lou from speaking for herself, which she always does. If I thought it would, I would remain silent. However, this IS a group list and people should feel free to jump in on any conversation. If you wanted the conversation to remain between you and Lou only, you could have emailed her privately. Perhaps my other sentences resonated with others here.

Helena

From: "JAMES P RYAN" <jim.ryangmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 7:34:50 PMSubject: Re:

It's 'easy' to get lost

Hi Helena,

I agree wholeheartedly with your second sentence.

Take care,

Jim

I know you mean well, but to advise someone you barely know to go to AA does not feel right to me. Maybe it is, and I should let Lou speak for herself, of course. But AA was not right for me; there are other options. 's latest book would be a great place to start, whether someone is in addiction or not, admits it or not - just my two cents.

Helena

From: "Jim " <jim.ryangmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 10:47:26 AMSubject: Re:

It's 'easy' to get lost

Time's up Lou. Drinking won again and always will. Ready to admit that?Yes? Call AA now. Or go here:They'll be kind to you there. They know what you're going through. You won't feel so alone.This can be the day your life really starts getting much much better. Best of everything,Jim

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:02 AM, <experiential2012@....au> wrote:

Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid! Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads, I move with you too.Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they kill me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill me....right?LOu...

Jim

Designer | Developer

http://www.jryanportfolio.com

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Why don't you start with yourself? I have no idea how you got from addiction to where you are now, or if you are even where you are now : ) Seriously, I had no idea you were dealing with addiction issues until recently and you have not given many specifics on that or how you let go and what the process was like ?

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:08:04 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Wow, that's huge. I really wish folks would talk about their process more here--what it was like and how you got to a place of letting go.I mean, isn't that what we're here for to a large extent?

To: "ACT_for_the_Public " <ACT_for_the_Public > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:48 AMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Thank you, Helena. I quit both as well, 1999 and 2002-ish: cold turkey and taper, respectively. I am quit comfortable without either now, but I also believe that each situation must be responded to as a unique one.

D

My method for quitting both cigarettes (1999) and alcohol (2011) was "cold turkey" along with a lot of reading and practice of mindfulness. I realize that doesn't work for everyone, especially those with deeply ingrained additions who probably can't use at all in order to get well; outside support is most likely needed.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do drink wine at times, like on Christmas Day at my friend's house. I just don't drink when I'm alone and never because I'm lonely or sad, which was my escape crutch for years - and it compounded my loneliness and sense of worthlessness, followed by shame the next day.

I live alone, and I choose to not bring booze into my home (along with potato chips!) unless I'm entertaining. When I choose to drink, it is in celebration with others. It has made a huge difference in the quality of my life and in my progress with ACT (living my values). I'm not suggesting that everyone must do as I do in order to live according to your values; some folks can probably drink alone with no ill effects. This is just what works for me.

Helena

From: "Darrell King" <DarrellGKinggmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:46:50 AMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

I have noticed that many who have been there and walked away can have strong bondings with the methods they used, even to the point of feeling fused with and defensive about them. This makes sense when I think about it.

One of my own strong feelings is reflected in your comments about public lists, Helena. I ran a very busy list for years and I always held that it wa like a sidewalk cafe where anyone could wander in and join any conversation. Such was the nature of the space.

D

Hi Jim,

You agree with this sentence, then: "Maybe it is, and I should let Lou speak for herself, of course."

It sounds like you think I should have kept my mouth shut - and you may be right - too late now. But expressing my opinons does not keep Lou from speaking for herself, which she always does. If I thought it would, I would remain silent. However, this IS a group list and people should feel free to jump in on any conversation. If you wanted the conversation to remain between you and Lou only, you could have emailed her privately. Perhaps my other sentences resonated with others here.

Helena

From: "JAMES P RYAN" <jim.ryangmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 7:34:50 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Hi Helena,

I agree wholeheartedly with your second sentence.

Take care,

Jim

I know you mean well, but to advise someone you barely know to go to AA does not feel right to me. Maybe it is, and I should let Lou speak for herself, of course. But AA was not right for me; there are other options. 's latest book would be a great place to start, whether someone is in addiction or not, admits it or not - just my two cents.

Helena

From: "Jim " <jim.ryangmail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 10:47:26 AMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Time's up Lou. Drinking won again and always will. Ready to admit that?Yes? Call AA now. Or go here:They'll be kind to you there. They know what you're going through. You won't feel so alone.This can be the day your life really starts getting much much better. Best of everything,Jim

On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 5:02 AM, <experiential2012@....au> wrote:

Yeh ok, ok, its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok, there is no responsibility....I can die today o?kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid! Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads, I move with you too.Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok...I die or they kill me...tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill me....right?LOu...

Jim

Designer | Developer

http://www.jryanportfolio.com

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Posted
Posted

Not sure which posts of mine you've not been reading. This is not the first time

you've quickly jumped in on requests/suggestions made to someone else.

By the way,asking others for things is very new and difficult in itself for me.

It's acceptance. Taking a chance here in this community, an active role so i

don't feel bullied or passive. So I know i did what i could and if i choose to

leave, i will be able to let go cleanly. If you think it's easy for me to do any

of this, you're wrong. It could be its a royal waste of time. Lot's of time it

has turned out that way..where i thought a public group was one thing and was

not accepting of the reality. Or things changed and i refused to notice and kept

looking for it be what it wasn't. Like i shared with you recently. So that's

huge growth in itself. Really huge for me.

But in any case, in case you missed it, I've been pouring my heart out here with

detailed examples-- and not just about drinking or drugging only-- this behavior

is both a symptom and adds to an exacerbation of a much larger problem of the

running, hiding, fighting, the experiential avoidance and fusion that is the

heart of all of our suffering imo. That's what I've been asking for from

everyone here. To speak to that and what's working, what's not, maybe use some

everyday examples for crying out loud.

Gee, I've been detailing experiences of struggle and triumph in therapy,

hoarding, opening up to help as a true value not a should, showing up for others

no matter what sort of helplessness is there i can't control (will she show

up?),opening up caring, letting caring be caring and hurt be hurt, getting

active in my ACT creative recovery, using music which helps with all the

processes, acceptance and defusion like Simon's " I know what i know " and

" Red Red Wine " reggae/rap.. lyrics i used to attach to literally while drinking.

And my back and forth antagonistic questions and comments with poor in

2010 didn't clue you in on the fact that i was struggling with addiction issues?

Okay. Well sorry if that wasn't clear. It is now though. Off to my meeting now.

I told them i thought AA was a cult and we laughed and others shared similar

concerns...wow, a huge space opened up with that..And so i had to let go of that

one! So amazing it is to let it all go. Be honest with other human beings.

take it easy,

terry

>

> <blockquote>

>

>  

>

>

>

> Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most,

(70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when

drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay

with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and

my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others

would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

>

> Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I

have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can

die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

>

> Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I

have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I move

with you too.

>

> Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online

journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no

living on from here...except fear...kill me....right?

>

> LOu

>

> ...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> </blockquote>

>

>

>

>

>

> Jim

> Designer | Developer

>

> http://www. jryanportfolio .com

>

>

> </blockquote>

>

>

> </blockquote>

>

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Posted
Posted

You made the suggestion to folks here (I really wish folks would talk about their process more here) so I actually didn't jump in on a request you made to a particular person. I read all your posts but don't claim to remember them all. No, I was not "clued in" to your addiction issues based on your discussion with - why should I have been? I don't jump to conclusions and you never said you were having addiction issues at that time, although you have alluded to it recently. So I wondered what substances were/are you addicted to (of course, you should feel free to keep that private if you wish)? How did you break free, and when? How's it going now? Did it make a difference in your life, in your progress with ACT? Did ACT help you, and how? Stuff like that. If you have talked about these things directly, I guess I missed it.

I sense that you are being defensive and critical towards me, which I often feel when I communicate with you, for whatever reason. I suppose I should just avoid talking with you because the tension between us goes way back.

HelenaSo

From: "theresa linder" <theresa.linderymail>To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:02:11 AMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Not sure which posts of mine you've not been reading. This is not the first time you've quickly jumped in on requests/suggestions made to someone else.By the way,asking others for things is very new and difficult in itself for me. It's acceptance. Taking a chance here in this community, an active role so i don't feel bullied or passive. So I know i did what i could and if i choose to leave, i will be able to let go cleanly. If you think it's easy for me to do any of this, you're wrong. It could be its a royal waste of time. Lot's of time it has turned out that way..where i thought a public group was one thing and was not accepting of the reality. Or things changed and i refused to notice and kept looking for it be what it wasn't. Like i shared with you recently. So that's huge growth in itself. Really huge for me. But in any case, in case you missed it, I've been pouring my heart out here with detailed examples-- and not just about drinking or drugging only-- this behavior is both a symptom and adds to an exacerbation of a much larger problem of the running, hiding, fighting, the experiential avoidance and fusion that is the heart of all of our suffering imo. That's what I've been asking for from everyone here. To speak to that and what's working, what's not, maybe use some everyday examples for crying out loud.Gee, I've been detailing experiences of struggle and triumph in therapy, hoarding, opening up to help as a true value not a should, showing up for others no matter what sort of helplessness is there i can't control (will she show up?),opening up caring, letting caring be caring and hurt be hurt, getting active in my ACT creative recovery, using music which helps with all the processes, acceptance and defusion like Simon's "I know what i know" and "Red Red Wine" reggae/rap.. lyrics i used to attach to literally while drinking. And my back and forth antagonistic questions and comments with poor in 2010 didn't clue you in on the fact that i was struggling with addiction issues? Okay. Well sorry if that wasn't clear. It is now though. Off to my meeting now. I told them i thought AA was a cult and we laughed and others shared similar concerns...wow, a huge space opened up with that..And so i had to let go of that one! So amazing it is to let it all go. Be honest with other human beings. take it easy,terry > > <blockquote>> > Â > > > > Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that.... > > Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid! > > Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I move with you too. > > Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill me....right? > > LOu > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > </blockquote>> > > > > > Jim > Designer | Developer > > http://www. jryanportfolio .com > > > </blockquote>> > > </blockquote>>

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Posted

Hi Helena,

Well, I was asking Darrell more about his experience with nicotine and drinking

and ACT and all of that because i like to celebrate miracles like that rather

than just skip them over and indulge only suffering, only the mind.. but if now

it is you who is eager for more, i'll try a bit here.

Re: " So I wondered what substances were/are you addicted to (of course, you

should feel free to keep that private if you wish)? How did you break free, and

when? How's it going now? Did it make a difference in your life, in your

progress with ACT? Did ACT help you, and how? Stuff like that. If you have

talked about these things directly, I guess I missed it. "

I guess you did miss it. I don't expect you to remember all my posts, but i am a

bit surprised at just how much you seemed to have missed.

Although there is a huge volume of posting here.

I would not say i broke free from pouring toxins into my body, except for today,

now. It's only been a few months since i stopped. I attend 12-step meetings and

see a therapist and do special readings and call certain people who have my ass

and keep it real and am learning how to surrender daily to my obsession to run,

fight, hide. I am combining this with the ACT work. It's scary and wonderful and

incredibly potent. There aren't enough minutes in the day to live. I am so

grateful for ACT and for the 12-Steps and for 's new book which is blowing

me out of the water. I do feel as you that values work have been pivotal but as

i mentioned a while back in the discussion about therapists, when you were

commenting (or asking) a loud about a new ACT therapist with strong CBT creds.,

I really was so fused and confused that if not for defusion i don't think any of

this would have stuck.

That'll have to do for now.

Thanks for asking. Like i said before the stuff you opened up and shared a

couple of days ago was very useful and inspiring. I hope that you didn't miss

that too. But there is so much i can't control.

peace to you, Helena,

terry

> >

> > < blockquote >

> >

> >  

> >

> >

> >

> > Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than

most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when

drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay

with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and

my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others

would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> >

> > Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I

have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can

die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> >

> > Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but

I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I move

with you too.

> >

> > Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online

journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no

living on from here...except fear...kill me....right?

> >

> > LOu

> >

> > ...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > </ blockquote >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Jim

> > Designer | Developer

> >

> > http://www. jryanportfolio .com

> >

> >

> > </ blockquote >

> >

> >

> > </ blockquote >

> >

>

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Posted
Posted

Wow, what a lovely, strong, clear, kind voice this is i hear. Thanks so much.

I'm tearing up a bit, the good kind. i would definitely join you in crediting

this list and all the voices here in my recent growth. I was just reviewing a

couple of zingers Steve wrote about values. Well also about defusion and

acceptance and he has a knack to talk about it all while addressing an otherwise

specific issue. And i would have never heard all this had people like you not

put it out there to begin with.

with gratefulness,

terry

> > > >

> > > > < blockquote >

> > > >

> > > >  

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than

most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when

drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay

with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and

my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others

would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that....

> > > >

> > > > Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before

I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can

die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid!

> > > >

> > > > Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before

but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I

move with you too.

> > > >

> > > > Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online

journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no

living on from here...except fear...kill me....right?

> > > >

> > > > LOu

> > > >

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > </ blockquote >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jim

> > > > Designer | Developer

> > > >

> > > > http://www. jryanportfolio .com

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > </ blockquote >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > </ blockquote >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Posted

Breaking free of addiction, even if only for one day at a time, is amazing. We only have this moment to make the decision to not drink or use. Taking one step at a time, one day at a time, one moment at a time - is the only way to do it. And when sobriety builds over time, the effect is cumulative and powerful.

I went back to the website to review prior posts from you, and there is much I missed or don't remember. I tend to skim rapidly over longer posts (except when they speak to me directly in some way - there is a lot of volume to keep up with), so that may be the reason. I didn't miss your kind comments about my recent sharing; should have acknowledged them - thank you. That may have been during the time my home computer was down for two days and I was spot-reading posts at work - or maybe I just goofed.

Keep on the toxin-free path - I'm so happy you are finding life so much better without that stuff! I know it has made a huge difference to me.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:00:53 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Hi Helena,Well, I was asking Darrell more about his experience with nicotine and drinking and ACT and all of that because i like to celebrate miracles like that rather than just skip them over and indulge only suffering, only the mind.. but if now it is you who is eager for more, i'll try a bit here.Re: "So I wondered what substances were/are you addicted to (of course, you should feel free to keep that private if you wish)? How did you break free, and when? How's it going now? Did it make a difference in your life, in your progress with ACT? Did ACT help you, and how? Stuff like that. If you have talked about these things directly, I guess I missed it."I guess you did miss it. I don't expect you to remember all my posts, but i am a bit surprised at just how much you seemed to have missed.Although there is a huge volume of posting here. I would not say i broke free from pouring toxins into my body, except for today, now. It's only been a few months since i stopped. I attend 12-step meetings and see a therapist and do special readings and call certain people who have my ass and keep it real and am learning how to surrender daily to my obsession to run, fight, hide. I am combining this with the ACT work. It's scary and wonderful and incredibly potent. There aren't enough minutes in the day to live. I am so grateful for ACT and for the 12-Steps and for 's new book which is blowing me out of the water. I do feel as you that values work have been pivotal but as i mentioned a while back in the discussion about therapists, when you were commenting (or asking) a loud about a new ACT therapist with strong CBT creds., I really was so fused and confused that if not for defusion i don't think any of this would have stuck. That'll have to do for now. Thanks for asking. Like i said before the stuff you opened up and shared a couple of days ago was very useful and inspiring. I hope that you didn't miss that too. But there is so much i can't control.peace to you, Helena,terry > > > > < blockquote > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that.... > > > > Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid! > > > > Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I move with you too. > > > > Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill me....right? > > > > LOu > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </ blockquote > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > Designer | Developer > > > > http://www. jryanportfolio .com > > > > > > </ blockquote > > > > > > > </ blockquote > > >>

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About breaking free of addictions...

What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or acceptable.

If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself.

Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts, feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them.

Henrik

Breaking free of addiction, even if only for one day at a time, is amazing. We only have this moment to make the decision to not drink or use. Taking one step at a time, one day at a time, one moment at a time - is the only way to do it. And when sobriety builds over time, the effect is cumulative and powerful.

I went back to the website to review prior posts from you, and there is much I missed or don't remember. I tend to skim rapidly over longer posts (except when they speak to me directly in some way - there is a lot of volume to keep up with), so that may be the reason. I didn't miss your kind comments about my recent sharing; should have acknowledged them - thank you. That may have been during the time my home computer was down for two days and I was spot-reading posts at work - or maybe I just goofed.

Keep on the toxin-free path - I'm so happy you are finding life so much better without that stuff! I know it has made a huge difference to me.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:00:53 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

Hi Helena,Well, I was asking Darrell more about his experience with nicotine and drinking and ACT and all of that because i like to celebrate miracles like that rather than just skip them over and indulge only suffering, only the mind.. but if now it is you who is eager for more, i'll try a bit here.Re: "So I wondered what substances were/are you addicted to (of course, you should feel free to keep that private if you wish)? How did you break free, and when? How's it going now? Did it make a difference in your life, in your progress with ACT? Did ACT help you, and how? Stuff like that. If you have talked about these things directly, I guess I missed it."I guess you did miss it. I don't expect you to remember all my posts, but i am a bit surprised at just how much you seemed to have missed.Although there is a huge volume of posting here. I would not say i broke free from pouring toxins into my body, except for today, now. It's only been a few months since i stopped. I attend 12-step meetings and see a therapist and do special readings and call certain people who have my ass and keep it real and am learning how to surrender daily to my obsession to run, fight, hide. I am combining this with the ACT work. It's scary and wonderful and incredibly potent. There aren't enough minutes in the day to live. I am so grateful for ACT and for the 12-Steps and for 's new book which is blowing me out of the water. I do feel as you that values work have been pivotal but as i mentioned a while back in the discussion about therapists, when you were commenting (or asking) a loud about a new ACT therapist with strong CBT creds., I really was so fused and confused that if not for defusion i don't think any of this would have stuck. That'll have to do for now. Thanks for asking. Like i said before the stuff you opened up and shared a couple of days ago was very useful and inspiring. I hope that you didn't miss that too. But there is so much i can't control.peace to you, Helena,terry > > > > < blockquote > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Yeh ok , ok , its all judgement and hypocrisy. Now I know that more than most, (70 to 80%, they are really big numbers) are successful in suicide when drinking, that info. made me want to be drunk a lot. Fucked if I want to stay with this lot. I complain so much it makes me an ingrate...I have my child, and my breath...I still feel unworthy today...I have...I am nothing...or as others would put it, no-thing. I am no-thing. Yes I know that.... > > > > Drunk Lou (I'd rather be lovely......) Right now my mind kills me before I have to go to work tomorrow so it is ok , there is no responsibility....I can die today o? kThere is no tomorrow dickhead! Don't be so stupid! > > > > Louise (I want to ask, do you know me?, like you've met me before but I have been told. I met you all before anyway.) Good luck my commerads , I move with you too. > > > > Lou? Louise? ? From all of us...as one...I gasp...at the online journey...no-thing...NO-THING, next ok ...I die or they kill me... tere is no living on from here...except fear...kill me....right? > > > > LOu > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </ blockquote > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > Designer | Developer > > > > http://www. jryanportfolio .com > > > > > > </ blockquote > > > > > > > </ blockquote > > >>

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Hi Henrik,

Always good to hear from you! I think Steve did a fantastic service walking us

through this territory in message #15844. Here's just a bit of it:

" Once you see avoidance you can never fully go back. Avoidance was always an

illusion. You were avoiding awareness of it--but not the impact, not the event.

In other words, you were never really avoiding--anymore than a person is

successfully avoiding cancer if there is a band aid on a tumor so it can't be

seen.

But once you SEE it, life has changed. You have a chance for a better life.

Because now the illusion is out there for you to see. "

Re: trading addictions: I've heard stories about this being a sticky area for

folks. It matters a good deal if you're listening to mind vs. your gut, your

values in terms of choices, substitutions of activity. And some control

behaviors are gentle steps forward, or at least ones that don't incur harm. Re:

all the thoughts and feelings, as Steve mentions, truth is I was never really

truly fully avoiding them with the addictive behavior. I was trying to

avoid/resist/control them and to the extent I did, they magnified big time.

Turns out they're much much less scary now without the substance! Turns out the

truth will set you free.

Be well..great to have you share here.

>

>

> About breaking free of addictions...

> What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a

> limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and

> thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that

> and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along

> with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put

> me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or

> acceptable.

> If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very

> liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself.

> Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various

> forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts,

> feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary

> that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them.

> Henrik

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"Turns out the truth will set you free."Hogwash, methinks.Where's the evidence?Prof. et al may be on to something, but proving it requires more than anecdotes, or articles in journals.I say this because obtaining replicable evidence in the "social sciences" is notoriously difficult, not least because results often, if not always, depend on the self-reporting of clinical trial subjects.If that "evidence" is enough for you, great -- your criterion equals that of fundamentalist Christians' reliance on the bible to be the inerrant word of "god".I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see is Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to further their own ends.The mind can be tricky -- it can even trick you into believing that you have somehow risen above its trickiness. How can you be sure?Regards,Laughing Buddha> >> > > > About breaking free of addictions...> > What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a> > limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and> > thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that> > and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along> > with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put> > me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or> > acceptable.> > If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very> > liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself.> > Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various> > forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts,> > feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary> > that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them.> > > Henrik>

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"Turns out the truth will set you free." is a subjective statement of belief and has nothing to do with proof or evidence. I cannot think of a single set of experiments conducted according to the scientific method that could find that statement to be scientifically provable. It would be like trying to prove that one person's pain is greater than another's: how could you measure that scientifically and how could you trust your perceptions of something so subjective as pain? That some things cannot be scientifically proven is not sufficient to make them hogwash (although they could be).

I certainly do tend to steer my opinions toward science and away from fantasy; I even display a "Got Science?" sticker on my car. I think that people should look to science whenever possible; for example, when attempting to avoid quackery and to keep from being scammed - which is why I appreciate studies that seem to support the efficacy of ACT. But one could never say "ACT will set you free," as a universal truth any more than "the truth will set you free" - yet it could be true on an individual basis. However I do think one could say with some degree of certainty that ACT will do no good if it is not practiced.

Heard this recently: Religion offers certainty without validation. Science offers validation without certainty.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:24:01 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

"Turns out the truth will set you free."Hogwash, methinks.Where's the evidence?Prof. et al may be on to something, but proving it requires more than anecdotes, or articles in journals.I say this because obtaining replicable evidence in the "social sciences" is notoriously difficult, not least because results often, if not always, depend on the self-reporting of clinical trial subjects.If that "evidence" is enough for you, great -- your criterion equals that of fundamentalist Christians' reliance on the bible to be the inerrant word of "god".I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see is Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to further their own ends.The mind can be tricky -- it can even trick you into believing that you have somehow risen above its trickiness. How can you be sure?Regards,Laughing Buddha> >> > > > About breaking free of addictions...> > What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a> > limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and> > thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that> > and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along> > with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put> > me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or> > acceptable.> > If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very> > liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself.> > Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various> > forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts,> > feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary> > that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them.> > > Henrik>

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"Heard this recently: Religion offers certainty without validation. Science offers validation without certainty."Great slogan, worthy of a bumper sticker, and just as nebulous.Further to my comment about the mind being "tricky", I've encountered folk who altered their daily lives due to whatever it was they experienced at church or Scientology or things like EST. The changes were long-lasting, and the changes were regarded as overwhelmingly positive, although it was difficult to verify this.As I said in my previous post, the mind can be tricky. I'm left wondering if the practice of ACT results in similar "change", ie, manifest but ultimately unverifiable, therefore requiring an act of faith to pursue.Regards,Buddha, laughing > > > > > > > > > About breaking free of addictions... > > > What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a > > > limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and > > > thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that > > > and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along > > > with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put > > > me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or > > > acceptable. > > > If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very > > > liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself. > > > Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various > > > forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts, > > > feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary > > > that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them. > > > > > Henrik > >>

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"Religion offers certainty without validation. Science offers validation without certainty."Nebulous? Not at all, IMO. But that's neither here nor there ...

I know folk who alter their daily lives with substance use and abuse because they believe it is an escape from pain. Those who turn to religion may do so for a similar reason. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who can judge? Where is the scientific proof that escaping in drugs or alcohol brings relief?

I think ACT does require trust - trust that if you take a leap outside of your comfort zone - to stop doing the same old avoidance shit that doesn't really work and be willing to try something different that just might work - engagement with what is in place of avoidance - it might pay off.

Helena

To: "ACT for the Public" <ACT_for_the_Public >Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:37:14 PMSubject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

"Heard this recently: Religion offers certainty without validation. Science offers validation without certainty."Great slogan, worthy of a bumper sticker, and just as nebulous.Further to my comment about the mind being "tricky", I've encountered folk who altered their daily lives due to whatever it was they experienced at church or Scientology or things like EST. The changes were long-lasting, and the changes were regarded as overwhelmingly positive, although it was difficult to verify this.As I said in my previous post, the mind can be tricky. I'm left wondering if the practice of ACT results in similar "change", ie, manifest but ultimately unverifiable, therefore requiring an act of faith to pursue.Regards,Buddha, laughing > > > > > > > > > About breaking free of addictions... > > > What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a > > > limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and > > > thoughts rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that > > > and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along > > > with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put > > > me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or > > > acceptable. > > > If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very > > > liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself. > > > Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various > > > forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts, > > > feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary > > > that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them. > > > > > Henrik > >>

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OK, I'll play. I know this is likely not really about what it says it is about ...but criticisms deserve to be taken seriously regardlessRE: " appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to further their own ends. "

that is a bit funny, since the meditation wing most often busts ACT because itdoesn't use enough of eastern religions meditation practices.ACT didn't come from Buddhism. All I knew personally about Buddism was

what any child of the 60's would know, which wasWatt and Suzuki and that's about it.If you go line by line thrusomething like Get Out of You Mind and Into Your Life and ask

" did this specific method come from Buddhism " you will find a somewhat limited overlapThe biggest differences at a method level?Some defusion methods; most values methods; most self issues

However, if instead you ask " is this in the same space " the answer will bemostly yes, but not just for Buddhism, but for all of the major spiritualand religious traditions. 

Here is what I said to a similar comment on a recent blog of mine at Psychology Today.Because of that context I use " I " but this response here is more of a " we " I think

I'm writing out of a Western science tradition and the methods I mention have been tested in the lab and clinic. The language processes involved are understood through basic work with infants on forward. The evolution science implications are modeled and thought through, integrating them with others' work. It is true that modern acceptance and mindfulness work in the behavioral and cognitive therapies, including ACT, overlaps hugely with spiritual teachers, both contemporary and historical. I'm not bothered by that. My usual metaphor is that if you find a lot of paths that arrive at a clearing in the woods, maybe there is something important about that place. But we don't arrive at that clearing empty handed. It isn't just that we are talking in a different style. We have a different history and background, and we know different things. Science is a different way of knowing. I doubt if we can add anything to the spiritual insights of a monk -- it's not our role and when we arrived at the clearing they were already there -- but we could have a great time explaining the science of human language and how it differs from non-human animals; how these verbal relations give rise to sense of self; how that creates benefits and problems; and some of the new methods we've mixed with old methods so as to do something about it. Much of that will be new to the monk (and some of it is truly new to the world) even if its deeper message is not. If you are interested in exploring it, start with Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life, or check out www.contextualpsychology.org But if it bothers you that these science geeks and clinicians have arrived at the clearing -- if you demand they wear robes, become disciples of those already there, or talk in the same way -- then just let it go. It will only agitate you to see the connections. Me, I'm buoyed up by it. if you find a lot of paths that arrive at a clearing in the woods, maybe there is something important about that place.

As for self reportsSolid point. Science types love that skepticism because they share it ... big time.

We should be skeptical and self-reports are limitedBelow are some of the controlled studies (randomized trials) I know of that showed that ACT methods werehelpful in actual behavior or its objective by-products (e.g., smoke free as measured by carbon monoxide;

drug free as measure us urinalysis; more willing to move even though it is painful asmeasured by being able to stand up and sit down repeatedly; etc etc)The objective measures are in bold. 

There are many more studies because to be honest I've not alwaysbeen mindful to note objective measures in my recordsNow does this mean you should be bullied by ACT evidence? No. 

First, do what works for you.Science doesn't say " this will work for you " ... it just says " overall there is something helpful here " and " here's how it works " . It could be a total failure with you. 

That is true with psychological stuff ... but its true with drugs, surgery, nutrition ... you name it.I mean it is worth looking at evidence ... but it is not a stick to beat people with.

Second, often the science has flaws. Usually we find out about thatonly slowly ... hard to see what you don't see. Third, there are failures too -- ACT has a few and more are coming.

Fourth, everyone has biases and I would agree that applies toACT folks too. I hate that " scientists as king " cstuff. Science types are biased human bozos likeeveryone else ... there is just a little more accountability and self-challenging

provided by scientific methods ... but sometimes not even that ... scientistssometimes cheat for example. The main protection thereis lots of replication. We do have that inside the ACBS universe

but in any specific area the replications right now may be limitedIn case I haven't said it recently.I appreciate the human community on this list (including the skepticism etc etc).

There is something brave about the groupthat just seems honorablePeace, love and life- S

 

Coping

with psychosis

Bach, P. & , C. (2002). The use of

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy to prevent the rehospitalization of psychotic

patients: A randomized controlled trial.

Journal of Consulting and Clinical

Psychology, 70 (5), 1129-1139. Shows that a three-hour ACT intervention

reduces rehospitalization by 50% over a 4 month follow-up as compared to

treatment as usual with seriously mentally ill inpatients. Process of change

fit the model but would be very much unexpected outside the model. The one year

follow up was still significant: Bach, P., , S. C. & Gallop, R. (2012).

Long term effects of brief Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for psychosis. Behavior Modification, 36, 167-183.

 Gaudiano, B.A., & Herbert, J.D. (2006).  Acute treatment of inpatients with

psychotic symptoms using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.  Behaviour

Research and Therapy, 44, 415-437. This study replicates the Bach and study with better

measures and a better control condition. Good results esp. on measures of overt

psychotic behavior (the BPRS). Mediational analyses of the effect of

hallucinations fit the ACT model and are described in more detail in Gaudiano,

B. A., & Herbert, J. D. (2006). Believability

of hallucinations as a potential mediator of their frequency and associated

distress in psychotic inpatients. Behavioural

and Cognitive Psychotherapy, 34, 497-502.

Mediational analyses of the impact of treatment on hallucination distress

due to post levels of believability of hallucinations also fit the ACT model

and are described in more detail in Gaudiano, B. A., Herbert, J. D., &

, S. C. (2010). Is it the symptom

or the relation to it? Investigating potential mediators of change in

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for psychosis. Behavior Therapy, 41, 543-554.

Bach, P., Gaudiano, B. A., , S. C.

& Herbert, J. D. (in press). Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for

psychosis: Intent to treat hospitalization outcome and mediation by

believability. Psychosis. The

combined data set from the two trials above (Bach & , 2002; Gaudiano

& Herbert, 2006) were examined to assess the impact of ACT on intent to

treat analyses of hospitalization outcomes and the mediating role of symptom

believability on hospitalization outcomes. Results showed reduction of

rehospitalization at the 4 month follow-up, mediated by symptom believability

but not symptom related distress. One of the studies collected mediators at

post and one at follow up but the mediation effects were the same, indicating

that violation of temporarily was not the source of the mediation results seen.

White, R.G., Gumley, A.I., McTaggart, J.,

Rattrie, L., McConville, D., Cleare, S, & G. (2011). A feasibility

study of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for emotional dysfunction following

psychosis. Behaviour Research and Therapy,

49, 901-907.  Small RCT (n =

27) of 10 sessions of ACT versus TAU to help cope with anxiety and depression

following psychosis. Blind raters; 3 mo f-up. Significant impact on negative

symptoms, depression, crisis calls, and mindfulness. Process changes correlated

with outcomes.

Anxiety

Brown, L. A., Forman, E. M., Herbert, J. D., Hoffman,

K. L., Yuen, E. K. and Goetter, E. M. (2011). A randomized controlled trial of

acceptance-based behavior therapy and cognitive therapy for test anxiety: A

pilot study. Behavior Modification, 35,

31-53. Small RCT for test anxiety

comparing ACT (with mindfulness elements) and Beck’s CT. Similar outcomes on

self-reports but ACT participants did objectively better on test scores in school.

Addiction

, S. C., , K. G., Gifford, E. V., Bissett,

R., Piasecki, M., Batten, S. V., Byrd, M., & Gregg, J. (2004). A randomized

controlled trial of twelve-step facilitation and acceptance and commitment

therapy with polysubstance abusing methadone maintained opiate addicts. Behavior Therapy, 35, 667-688.

A

large randomized controlled trial was conducted with polysubstance abusing

opiate addicted individuals maintained on methadone. Participants (n=114) were

randomly assigned to stay on methadone maintenance (n=38), or to add ACT

(n=42), or Intensive Twelve Step Facilitation (ITSF; n=44) components. There

were no differences immediately post-treatment. At the six-month follow-up

participants in the ACT condition demonstrated a greater decrease in

objectively measured (through monitored urinalysis) opiate use than those in

the methadone maintenance condition (ITSF did not have this effect). Both the

ACT and ITSF groups had lower levels of objectively measured total drug use

than did methadone maintenance alone.

Gifford, E. V., Kohlenberg, B. S., , S. C.,

Antonuccio, D. O., Piasecki, M. M.., Rasmussen-Hall, M. L., & Palm, K. M.

(2004). Acceptance theory-based

treatment for smoking cessation: An initial trial of Acceptance and Commitment

Therapy. Behavior Therapy,

35, 689-705.

            Medium

sized randomized controlled trial comparing ACT to nicotine replacement therapy

(NRT) as a method of smoking cessation. Objectively monitored quit rates were similar at post but at

a one-year follow-up the two groups differed significantly. The ACT group had

maintained their gains (35% quit rates) while the NRT quit rates had fallen

(<10%). Mediational analyses shows that ACT works through acceptance and

response flexibility.

,

C. L. & Zettle, R. D. (2009). Treating inpatients with ocmorbid depression

and alcohol use disorders: A comparisons of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

and treatment as usual. The Psychological

Record, 59, 521-536. Small RCT comnparing the impact of individual sessions

of ACT or TAU while hospitalized. ACT produced equivalent outcomes but with

about 20-25% less intervention and 1/3 less time in the hospital.

Gifford, E.

V., Kohlenberg, B., , S. C., Pierson, H., Piasecki, M., Antonuccio, D.,

& Palm, K. (2011). Does acceptance and relationship focused behavior

therapy contribute to bupropion outcomes? A randomized controlled trial of FAP

and ACT for smoking cessation. Behavior

Therapy, 42, 700-715. Large RCT (n = 303) of ACT + FAP + Zyban vs Zyban for

smoking cessation. Good outcomes, including on objectively measured smoking rates. Mediated by psychological flexibility and

working alliance but when both are included, just PF still works.

  

Pain

Dahl, J., , K. G., & Nilsson, A. (2004).

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and the treatment of persons at risk for

long-term disability resulting from stress and pain symptoms: A preliminary

randomized trial. Behavior Therapy, 35,

785-802.

A small

randomized controlled trial shows that a four hour ACT intervention reduced

sick day usage by 91% over the next six months compared to treatment as usual

in a group of chronic pain patients at risk for going on to permanent

disability.

McCracken, L. M, Vowles, K. E., & Eccleston, C.

(2005). Acceptance-based treatment for persons with complex, long-standing

chronic pain: A preliminary analysis of treatment outcome in comparison to a

waiting phase. Behaviour Research and

Therapy, 43, 1335-1346.

108 chronic pain

patients with a long history of treatment are followed through an ACT-based 3-4

week residential treatment program. Measures improved from initial assessment

to pre-treatment on average only 3% (average of 3.9 month wait), but improved

on average 34% following treatment. 81% of these gains were retained through a

3 month follow up. Changes in acceptance predicted positive changes in

depression, pain related anxiety, physical disability, psychosocial disability,

and the ability to stand. Positive outcomes were also seen in a timed walk,

decreased medical visits, daily rest due to pain, pain intensity, and decreased

pain medication use.

Wicksell, R. K., Melin, L., & Olsson, G. L.

(2007). Exposure and acceptance in the rehabilitation of adolescents with

idiopathic chronic pain - A pilot study. European

Journal of Pain, 11(3), 267-274. Open trial ACT for pain with 14 adolescents.

Following treatment, and retained at 3- and 6-month follow-up, improvements in

functional ability, school attendance, catastrophizing and pain.

Vowles, K. E. & McCracken, L. M. (2008). Acceptance and values-based action in chronic pain: A study of

effectiveness and treatment process. Journal

of Clinical and Consulting Psychology, 76, 397-407. Effectiveness study. 171 completers of an ACT interdisciplinary treatment

program, examine a pre, post, follow up. Significant improvements for pain,

depression, pain-related anxiety, disability, medical visits, work status, and

physical performance. Effect size statistics were uniformly medium or larger.

Both acceptance of pain and values-based action improved, and increases in

these processes were associated with improvements in the primary outcome

domains.  

 

Vowles, K. E., McCracken, L.

M., O’Brien, J. Z. (2011). Acceptance and values-based action in chronic pain:

A three-year follow-up analysis of treatment effectiveness and process. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 49, 748-755. Follow up study of 108 participants

with chronic pain examining outcomes three years after treatment completion. Significant

improvements (generally medium to large) in emotional and physical functioning

relative to the start of treatment, as well as good maintenance of treatment

gains relative to an earlier follow-up assessment. 65% of patients were reliably

improved in at least one key domain. Improvements in acceptance of pain and

values-based action were associated with improvements in outcome measures.

Woods, D. W., Wetterneck, C. T., & Flessner, C. A.

(2006) A controlled evaluation of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy plus habit

reversal for trichotillomania. Behaviour

Research and Therapy, 44, 639-656..

A small randomized trial (25 completers) comparing ACT plus habit reversal to a

wait list. Wait list subjects then receive ACT/HR. Solid hair pulling, anxiety,

and depression outcomes, maintained at a 3 month follow up. Wait list

participants also improve once they get ACT. AAQ moves and correlates well with

outcomes.

Lundgren, A. T., Dahl, J., Melin, L. & Kees, B.

(2006). Evaluation of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for drug refractory

epilepsy: A randomized controlled trial in South Africa. Epilepsia, 47, 2173-2179.  [RCT with 27 drug resistant epileptics

comparing 9 hours of ACT – individual and group -- to supportive therapy.

Reduction of seizures assessed from nurses records to near zero level; maintenance for a year but taken from

nurses records. Quality of life improves continuously through the follow up.

Mediational analyses are reported in Lundgren, T., Dahl, J., & , S. C.

(2008). Evaluation of mediators of change in the treatment of epilepsy with

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Journal

of Behavioral Medicine, 31, 221-235. Both

values and acceptance, along or in combination, work as mediators for most

outcomes]

Gregg, J. A., Callaghan, G. M., , S. C., &

Glenn-Lawson, J. L. (2007). Improving diabetes self-management through

acceptance, mindfulness, and values: A randomized controlled trial. Journal of Consulting and Clinical

Psychology, 75(2), 336-343. RCT showing that ACT + patient education is

significantly better than patient education alone in producing good

self-management and better blood glucose levels in lower SES patients with Type

II diabetes. Effects at follow up are mediated by changes in self-management

and greater psychological flexibility with regard to diabetes related thoughts

and feelings.

Lillis, J., , S. C., Bunting, K., Masuda, A.

(2009). Teaching acceptance and mindfulness to improve the lives of the obese:

A preliminary test of a theoretical model. ls

of Behavioral Medicine, 37, 58-69. RCT on ACT for weight self-stigma and

weight maintenance. Reduced stigma, increased quality of life, and reduced

weight. Effects mediated by weight related psychological flexibility.

Tapper, K., Shaw, C., Ilsley, J., Hill, A. J., Bond,

F. W., & , L. (2009). Exploratory randomised controlled trial of a

mindfulness-based weight loss intervention for women. Appetite, 52, 396–404. Small RCT. 62 dieting obese women randomly

assigned to 4 2-hr ACT sessions or to wait list; at 6 mo. better exercise (p , .05), and for those applying the

workshop, better weight loss as reflected by BMI differences (0.96 relative to

controls, equivalent to 2.32 kg, p < 0.5).

Butryn, M. L., Forman, E.,

Hoffman, K., Shaw, J., & Juarascio, A. (2011). A pilot study of Acceptance

and Commitment Therapy for promotion of physical activity. Journal of Physical Activity and Health, 8, 516-522. Small RCT (N =

54) comparing 4 hrs of education vs ACT for promoting physical activity. ACT

participants exercised more on objective measure.

 

Performance enhancement

Ruiz, F. J. & Luciano,

C. (2009). Eficacia de la terapia de aceptación y compromiso (ACT) en la mejora

del rendimiento ajedrecístico de jóvenes promesas [Acceptance and commitment

therapy (ACT) and improving performance in bright youth hope chess-players]. Psicothema, 21(3), 347-352. Non-randomized

study of seven young international caliber chess-players (ages: 14-20, mean age

= 16); control group match by age and ability.  Brief group ACT protocol unfolded over 5 days. Over next 9

months 5 out of the 7 ACT noticeably improved their chess circuit performance,

none in the control condition did so (d

= .52, p < .03).  Processes measures (including a kind of

AAQ for chess) showed coherent changes that related to performance.

C. Foundation ProfessorDepartment of Psychology /298University of NevadaReno, NV 89557-0062 " Love isn't everything, it's the only thing "

hayes@... or stevenchayes@...Fax: Psych Department: Contextual Change (you can use this number for messages if need be):

Blogs: Psychology Today  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/get-out-your-mindHuffington Post  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-c-hayes-phd

If you want my vita, publications, PowerPoint slides, try my training page:  http://contextualpsychology.org/steve_hayesor you can try my website (it is semi-functional) stevenchayes.com

If you have any questions about ACT or RFT (articles, AAQ information etc), please first check the vast resources at website of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS): www.contextualpsychology.org. You have to register on the site to download things, but the cost is up to your own values.

If you are a professional or student and want to be part of the world wide ACT discussion or RFT discussions, join the ACT list: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/acceptanceandcommitmenttherapy/join

or the RFT list:http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/relationalframetheory/joinIf you are a member of the public reading ACT self-help books (e.g., " Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life " etc) and want to be part of that conversation go to: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ACT_for_the_Public/join

I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see is Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to further their own ends.

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Hi Detlef Actually, there are a lot of objective outcomes used within the trials, like hospital admissions, measures of social activity etc etc. But I'd add that the subjective measures are incredibly well tested for validity (does it measure what we want it to measure) and consistency (does it measure the same thing over time, and across different people, and different raters). The results from ACT are also consistent across a wide range of subjective outcomes - so not just depression or anxiety, but also quality of life and satisfaction. I hope that scepticism about subjective measures doesn't catch on - mental health needs more research, not less.

The big problem with the evidence base underpinning (ACT, CBT, whatever) therapy trials (which isn't a problem in drug trials) is that you can't (single, let alone double) blind the intervention. There will be all sorts of biases: patients know that they are receiving therapy; and therapists know that they are delivering the therapy! There is also the issue that the evaluators seem rarely to be free from conflicts of interest: they tend to have a personal interest in the success of the trials (do they farm out the research to independent trials units? not that I can see) (If I am wrong, I hope I will be corrected, as it interests me! Can you do a "placebo" therapy, to counter some of the bias? Therapy, with no actual therapeutic

value????) x To: ACT_for_the_Public Sent: Tuesday, 28 February 2012, 17:24 Subject: Re: It's 'easy' to get lost

"Turns out the truth will set you free."Hogwash, methinks.Where's the evidence?Prof. et al may be on to something, but proving it requires more than anecdotes, or articles in journals.I say this because obtaining replicable evidence in the "social sciences" is notoriously difficult, not least because results often, if not always, depend on the self-reporting of clinical trial subjects.If that "evidence" is enough for you, great -- your criterion equals that of fundamentalist Christians' reliance on the bible to be the inerrant word of "god".I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see is Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to further their own ends.The mind can be tricky -- it can even trick you into believing that you have somehow risen above its trickiness. How can you be

sure?Regards,Laughing Buddha> >> > > > About breaking free of addictions...> > What I've found, once I started to suspend some kind of addiction for a> > limited amount of time - is that immediately well known sensations and> > thoughts

rush forth. I then need to be real quick in acknowledging that> > and sticking to them (acceptance - feeling them expressing them along> > with defusion). If I don't do that quickly, my mind will very soon put> > me in the direction of another addiction that seems more benign or> > acceptable.> > If I do stick to the feelings and thoughts, though - it's very> > liberating after a while. I calm down. I get in contact with myself.> > Running from feelings by getting into addicitions in all the various> > forms they take - is the same as scaring myself. Avoiding thoughts,> > feelings and sensations amounts to telling myself that they are so scary> > that I have to do repetitive things in order not to feel them.> > > Henrik>

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Many thanks for this.My sober self would take the stuff I pulled out of my rear and posted here earlier and shove it in the toilet, where perhaps it belongs.Lest there is any doubt, I'm not qualified to speak on ACT or its creators; I apologize for my rudeness and presumptuousness in doing so.I feel the need for a genuine ACT practitioner to help me learn, as my solo efforts tend to come to grief, resulting in the kind of verbal diarrhea evident in those earlier posts of mine.Most of all, perhaps I need to learn some self-compassion. It seems that whenever I'm in danger of feeling even a smidgin of compassion toward myself I sabotage it, as I have done these past hours.It's really no fun being me.Detlef> > >> > I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see is> > Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation practices to> > further their own ends.> >>

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, that previous post was written in the light of day and sobriety, hence the 'mea culpa'. I know from my reading that you have much experience in this area. You've managed to extricate yourself from the tentacles. Perhaps I need to 'kiss the tiles' before I can do likewise.Regards,Detlef> >> > >> > > I expect a better level of evidence, however, and so far all I see> is> > > Prof. et all appropriating Eastern Religions' meditation> practices to> > > further their own ends.> > >> >>

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