Re: Different Strokes for Different Folks

February 8, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 00:17:35 EST, you write:

<< This sounds too similar to the nonsense that was going on with the L-C

diabetes list.

>>

No, no, n, this is the Nice List! :-) Vicki

February 8, 2001

Message from moderator very subtle, although I think she is great. I think

the moderator should ask people to air their concerns publicly. Remember you

have the constitutional right to hear what you are accused of from the

accuser.

n

February 8, 2001

I for one have never told anyone to lower their carbs. I suggest lower carb

versions of products when requested. I will describe the low carb food we

use and their comparison to other products. I long ago gave up trying to

" convince anyone of anything. " I don't understand the difference between

telling someone that you think that breakfast is important or telling them

that you think low carb is important. One is just a hotter, more sensitive

subject.

I simply don't get the Ron stuff. His E-mail is public domain and anyone can

write him. So what is the problem, really. Why are people writing you about

unsubscribing and not telling the list members to lay off. I got a flaming

message privately from one of the members and simply told her not write me

anymore.

I have gotten feedback that I am " too emotional " and risking too many hypos

and etc. I respect others opinions and take what I think is valid and

discard the list.

Teri, I still don't understand what the problem is. There were several dozen

messages about psyillium and metamucil; these items are far to high in fiber

for my son to digest. We all have DELETE buttons. I truly still don't get

your drift.

n

February 8, 2001

Well, I am reluctant to share any of my experiences with low carb at this

point. So someone will have to clear up this situation...I am puzzled... yes

it is an internet list but people's emotions get heavily involved.

So how do we know when we should give an opinion or not??

n

February 8, 2001

<< Kindness, support, sharing, compassion. That's why we're here. Let's all

please be considerate of each other.

Thanks,

Teri >>

What a lovely " mission statement " for the group!

I wanted to thank you, Teri, for your post. I really appreciated what you

had to say, and thought you said it very well. Both your post and several of

the posts in the past couple of days have made me feel like there is room for

me on this list, when I had previously started to wonder about that.

Nan

February 8, 2001

Different Strokes for Different Folks

Kindness, support, sharing, compassion. That's why we're here. Let's all

please be considerate of each other.

Thanks,

Teri

*clap! clap! clap!* That's my way of thinking too Teri. You put it very

well.

Love you,

Tootie

February 8, 2001

n,

Example -- someone asked recently what people eat for breakfast. Many of us

posted what we eat. If someone posted an answer to that question, then someone

else suggested to them that they need to lower their carb intake by substituting

such and such, that would have been an unsolicited suggestion. I realize you're

relatively new to the list, but as I said, some don't count carbs, and don't

want to. In that particular case, a suggestion to eat a lower carb breakfast

would have been unwelcome in some cases. No, that didn't happen. I'm just

answering your first question.

Secondly, if I ever want to refer directly to you or any other INDIVIDUAL, I

will do so privately via email. I will NOT confront anyone on-list. We don't do

things that way on this list.

Re Ron: The biggest problem I personally observed in the series of posts to

which you refer was that some of the posts took on a tone that on this list was

close enough to flaming to make me very uncomfortable.

No, whoever is writing me emails is not " already by-passing the group and doing

what we call " splitting. " I was approached as the moderator of this list to try

to, quite bluntly, remind the group that this is not a low-carb list. Period.

I'm not getting triangulated. I'm moderating the list. The emails I had were

concerned, kind, and well intentioned, but two of them were from people who were

feeling so out numbered and out of place that they were ready to unsubscribe.

They felt that since they don't " low-carb, " every time they tried to take part

in a discussion, they were totally out of place because all any one ever said to

them was " count your carbs. "

I neither know nor care what was going on with another list. I just don't want

to see people upset and unsubscribing from this list. I think part of the

problem is that this list is experiencing some growing pains. When I last

looked, we were over 350 people now. Granted most of them don't post much, but

still, we do have a larger number of active posters.

Bottom line is that the basic rules of this list require kindness, compassion,

mutual respect, common courtesy, and remembering that there are different ways

for individuals to manage their diabetes.

Teri

Re: Different Strokes for Different Folks

re: Different Strokes

Why would people write on the list if they don't want suggestions? How can

someone give a suggestion that doesn't fit with their own viewpoint.

I don't understand your point. If you are referring to me, then be direct.

All comments are offers of help, not criticisms or attempts to convince.

Re Ron, I will continue to give him credit where he is due credit. I will not

act as if I have discovered things that he has engineered. So I don't get your

point here either. The closest to flaming was people saying that they didn't

want to hear about " Ron " . Well, who shall I say helped me when someone helped

me?

Does he really need to be " he whose name cannot be mentioned. "

Very puzzled re your message. Very diplomatic, but don't understand what you

mean precisely. Whoever is writing you private E-mails is already by-passing

the group and doing what we call " splitting " . How about asking them to share

their concerns in public, on-line.

I received a private E-mail from one of list members telling me that " my

emotions were clouding my thinking " . Well, da! That's a surprise. I simply

asked her not to write me privately anymore and to share her issues on the group

site..

This sounds too similar to the nonsense that was going on with the L-C

diabetes list.

Very scary.

Please don't get triangulated (put in the middle).

n

February 8, 2001

No, I will NOT ask these people to share their concerns publicly on the list.

1. some of them are not comfortable doing so. That is too close to a

confrontation situation for them and their personalities.

2. This isn't a court of law, and nobody has been accused of anything. Please.

It's an internet mailing list. Let's not blow this out of proportion.

Teri

Re: Different Strokes for Different Folks

Message from moderator very subtle, although I think she is great. I think

the moderator should ask people to air their concerns publicly. Remember you

have the constitutional right to hear what you are accused of from the

accuser.

n

February 8, 2001

Thank you, sweetheart.

I love you, too,

Teri

Different Strokes for Different Folks

Kindness, support, sharing, compassion. That's why we're here. Let's all

please be considerate of each other.

Thanks,

Teri

*clap! clap! clap!* That's my way of thinking too Teri. You put it very

well.

Love you,

Tootie

February 9, 2001

Well, I have gotten my fair share of " kind " , but not easy to hear, words.

Some of them based on misunderstanding, some based on fear, some pointing out

things I couldn't view. Some words weren't so " kind " . So??? I am a grown

woman and I have bucked the establishment using Dr. Bernstein's program and

low carb for a kid. Caught a lot of flack then. People can think and

respond for themselvs without going to Momma to tell on the rest of us.

Really, guys, this makes me want to unsuscribe. WHo has time or energy for

this junk?

I still don't get this whole thread....if you don't count the carbs, press

the DELETE, button. Or do what did which was warn us that she did

not want a lecture about food and it was greatly appreciated and respected.

As I wrote Teri, there is something wrong with this whole discussion. Sounds

like family therapy to me, but in family therapy we are able to hear face to

face who is saying what about whom.

Now we are all wondering who is unhappy and who they are unhappy with and

what we each said that might of offended who and etc.....ad nauseum.

n

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-08 23:41:39 EST, you write:

<< Best advice I can give on this one is that is that when you know someone

isn't into counting carbs, just let it go, please. They don't need to be

repeatedly told about low-carb alternatives to the foods they CHOOSE to eat

unless they ask.

>>

Oops, guess I was guilty of that one yesterday...sorry. Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 01:34:22 EST, you write:

<<

Bottom line is that the basic rules of this list require kindness,

compassion, mutual respect, common courtesy, and remembering that there are

different ways for individuals to manage their diabetes. >>

Thank you, Teri, for being so sweet and diplomatic. One of the things I've

always appreciated about this list is the caring and concern for each other.

I've mentioned many times that you all feel like family to me and I don't

want to lose any of you. So if I've been too strident about my own

lowcarbing, I'll try to remember that it's not the Only Way (even though I

may believe this .<g> ) Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 02:07:17 EST, you write:

<< So how do we know when we should give an opinion or not??

>>

Dear n, those who've been on this list for a long time have been through

this before.

An opinion is okay...as long as we're sure to make it clear that it is " IMHO "

or some such. We can share our own personal experience...but we need make

it very clear that while this " Works For Me " , it may not necessarily work

for others. People need to draw their own conclusions. We are free to

choose our own method of dealing with diabetes. We may firmly believe that

lowcarb is the Only Way to Go but there are some people here who do use the

exchange system with reasonable results. I've been guilty of this too and

for this I truly apologize.

I do think the reason some of us are so vocal about lowcarbing is that it's

not " mainstream " and many docs and diabetic educators don't let newbies know

about it for various reasons. So many of us see this list as a forum to get

the word out. Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 02:48:43 EST, you write:

<< Both your post and several of

the posts in the past couple of days have made me feel like there is room

for

me on this list, when I had previously started to wonder about that. >>

Nan, you've been a real asset to the list and I always enjoy and appreciate

your well-thought-out posts. Glad you decided to stay. Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 09:28:39 EST, you write:

<< Just don't try to force anything on me. My numbers are right where I

want them, thanks..

>>

....and that's the important thing, of course. (But how could we force you?

The hand reaching out of the computer screen and pushing that piece of candy

out of your hand? <g>) Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 09:34:59 EST, you write:

<< The people on this list are the best and most caring I've encountered. I

just can't believe that we can't make this work. >>

Don't panic, Teri, I don't want to lose anyone to another list either --

join other lists if you want but don't leave us here! We're Family! I need

you all. Group hugs, Vicki.

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 09:34:59 EST, you write:

<< ed to be that **I** was about the only one who complained about feeling

outnumbered. I began to realize that I was essentially achieving a low-carb

nutrition without COUNTING carbs, >>

Well, I sure wish I could get away with not counting. You know how math

impaired I am...I've said it before...that's the worst part of diabetes for

me, the amount of calculations necessary to gain control. However, even with

the exchange system, some counting is necessary. I'm extremely fortunate in

that R. designed a program for me that did all the necessary math. Otherwise

I'd be in Deep Doodoodoo. <g> Vicki

February 9, 2001

In a message dated 01-02-09 09:44:30 EST, you write:

<<

Now we are all wondering who is unhappy and who they are unhappy with and

what we each said that might of offended who and etc.....ad nauseum.

>>

No, I'm not wondering, M arion...with 375 members, only a small proportion

actually posting, that's unproductive. I'm just going to try to hold it in my

mind that there are people here who use the exchange system successfully and

try to be diplomatic. This doesn't mean I'm goig to stop talking about

lowcarbing. After all, it Works For Me. Vicki

February 9, 2001

The only thing I see wrong is that its the old " someone said something to me

about someone " and the mystery and that people are not told to speak for

themselves so that we know who we have offended and when and how. It was too

general of a message. I would have preferred to get an E-mail, even a blunt

one, then to be left in mystery. I am not used to operating like that.

n

February 9, 2001

I really think it is all Dave's fault. Period.

n

February 9, 2001

I don't know how to wade into this but I think this story might help. My

mother, a diabetic type 2 with blood pressure problems, arthritis, and heart

disease took my dd to the movies on her 5th birthday. My mother died at the

movies.....

She lived with me and I am a RN. I know the diet....I know the meds...I know

the exercise routine....but she was an adult. She put things in her mouth

that I would not have let her have....but she was an adult. I would never

belittle her for a moment about her choices although I did develop " the look "

when it was really bad. I informed her of the need to check her blood sugar

frequently...which she did not. I gave her information on her meds and how

to take them properly...which she did. I talked about the value of

exercise....which she failed to understand on any level.

But she made her choices....the problem I have is that I suffer the

consquences of those choices...and that makes me wish I could have her back

again and be more forceful with my teaching....

She was a wonderful woman....volunteer of the year at Salvation Army....she

was 63.

I don't look at the posts as being mean....just a bunch of people who care

about others who have this disease. We can all respect the choices that

each of us have made....and worry about the consquences at the same time....

I appreciate my dh who has develped " the look " when I am straying from the

right choce made for me. I am not offended by his concern. And at times I

do explain to him that I am making this particular choice with full knowledge

of the consquences and this is how I am going to remedy that. ( more

treadmill time!! )

I may be rambling here.....sorry in advance if I have the wrong idea or have

offended anyone

ressy

February 9, 2001

<< This is not an exclusively low-carb list. Some people don't count carbs,

don't want to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Best advice I can give

on this one is that is that when you know someone isn't into counting carbs,

just let it go, please. They don't need to be repeatedly told about low-carb

alternatives to the foods they CHOOSE to eat unless they ask. >>

If someone pays no attention to carb intake and doesn't take compensatory

meds, that person is either not diabetic or is in terrible control. I feel

we have an obligation to help each other improve control so we don't die

young of horrible complications. If someone pays no attention to carb intake

and takes oodles of compensatory meds, that person isn't following

recommendations of the ADA, RxList.com, etc., which say diet, exercise and

weight loss should be our primary treatment methods, with pills coming into

play only when that approach fails. If newly-diagnosed diabetics don't yet

recognize that it is primarily the carbohydrates in our diet that cause the

problems, then we aren't doing a good job of helping them understand. Is it

newbies complaining to you? Or is it oldtimers who just don't want to make

the sacrifices needed to maintain good control, and don't want to be

reminded that they're not adequately dealing with a major, life-threatening

disease? " To carb or not to carb " is not a choice when it comes to good

diabetes control. Syndrome X type 2's who shoot large doses of insulin to

" cover the carbs " and don't adjust their food intake face risks: weight

gain, heart attack, stroke, kidney damage, eye damage, circulatory damage.

They are making a bad situation worse by forcing even more insulin into a

body already pickled in it.

<< Kindness, support, sharing, compassion. That's why we're here. Let's all

please be considerate of each other. >>

I think we have successfully defused several situations that didn't need to

happen - and we have had some heartfelt apologies. But if we have one or

more members who are chronic troublemakers, we don't need to keep them. I

don't want this job to be too much of a PITA for you, Teri. If someone

thinks, " I know I'm supposed to watch my diet but I don't feel like it - and

I resent being reminded all the time, " isn't it our duty to be like parents

or teachers who would work to help a troubled, resentful youngster?

I hope we don't all forget the reason we left misc.health.diabetes. If Teri

is going to get this much grief, maybe we should split up into two groups.

Susie

February 9, 2001

Susie,

Not COUNTING carbs doesn't necessarily mean that people consume too many carbs.

I think that's what some people have tried to say. I can't speak for others

specifically on this I guess, but I know what I'm hearing as recently as after I

started this thread last night when someone said, " Thank you for saying what you

did. I was really wondering if there was a place for me on the list. " I'll use

my case as an example. You recently recounted that you and I had discovered that

we're probably very close in carb consumption, yet I have NEVER counted carbs. I

use exchanges to achieve nutrition balanced in the food groups, and I use my

glucose readings to know which foods produce unacceptable levels. I add moderate

exercise to this mix. All of this produces:

-- A1c consistently under 6.0

-- Morning fasting levels consistently below 100

-- 1.5 - 2 hour pp readings consistently below 120

Now, much of this is really a matter of semantics, I suppose, and I really don't

know what to do about it. Perhaps just more awareness of the folks who don't

want to count carbs, but are successful in their own method of management.

Perhaps you're right. Maybe it is time for the group to split. It used to be

that **I** was about the only one who complained about feeling outnumbered. I

began to realize that I was essentially achieving a low-carb nutrition without

COUNTING carbs, and just don't worry about it, but I'm in good shape and don't

need a lot of advice just now. I guess what concerns some people is that for

those who do need advice, COUNTING the carbs seems to be the only advice

available on the list. Mind you, I'm discussing here. I'm really not upset,

just trying to find common ground and a solution. The people on this list are

the best and most caring I've encountered. I just can't believe that we can't

make this work.