Re: sex, love & mortification

[Guest guest]

So I'm talking here about people connecting with each

other -- in a profound, wondrous sense -- and that is what

I think is largely missing from the Borderline Personality.

At least, for my nada. All of her weird sexual fixations,

her provocative nudity, her humiliations and insults to fada,

her raging WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU DOING IN THE BATHROOM ...

In the end, she just couldn't connect. It wasn't in her.

,

Your post really struck a chord with me. Thanks for the AH HA moment. For so

long I have

been trying to understand why I have such trouble connecting with people. I

have only a

handful of people that I truly trust and can open up to. I think I get it now.

I want to be close

to people but usually when someone gets too close, I run. Wow, Therapy should

be fun next

week while I try and figure this one out.

Thanks,

Liza

[Guest guest]

when i was 17, i asked to be sent to therapy. my mom told me she was

depressed and she didn't go to therapy, so i would just have to deal

with it.

[Guest guest]

GAH! i hit reply too soon!!!

i have recently been dealing with why i am so bothered by the whole

idea of sex. it's not that i DON'T have sex and it's not even that i

don't like having sex. i have a great relationship with my husband

and we have fun together. it's just that i think the crux of the

issue is that sex bothers me when it's used to establish intimacy

which really isn't there. i think maybe sex is used in lieu of that

deep human connection you're talking about, like some sort of shortcut

that never really gets you to the place you want to be.

jeez, and i don't even know what kind of message my mom was trying to

send about sex. she was all, " use men or they'll use you, " but her

interactions with men led me to think she worked according to the

equation sex=love. just. completely. baffling.

and people have commented to me that i act like i've been molested.

i'm not entirely sure how one " acts " like they were molested. i think

it's more that they're picking up on the fact that i don't trust

people very much and don't know what else it could be...but the whole

non-sex sexual abuse is an interesting thought. there has seriously

been some weirdness over reproductive and sexual matters.

so anyway, i've managed to develop very intimate relationships in

non-sexual ways. the only problem is that i don't get along with

girls so much, so i tend to have a lot of guy friends, but they don't

get that an intimate relationship with a girl does not always involve

sex. hell, maybe i don't get it.

GAH!!! SEX IS LAME!!!

bink

[Guest guest]

Yes, I think because BPDs have trouble with true intimacy, that sex

throws a monkeywrench into their thinking. On this board alone,

we've seen nada's who like to show off to their kids that they're

doing something the kids aren't allowed to, or are hypervigilant to

the point of interjecting themselves hysterically into the

adolescent's mind when they start dating. I think my nada was just

plain jealous, and it came out as anger and micromanaging what I

might be doing out of her sight.

And when a nada doesn't stand up for the child after the child has

reported molestation, it sends the message to the child that they

aren't important -- they aren't worth defending. What a terrible

feeling it must be, to a powerless child, to know you're totally

alone -- that your mother has tossed you to the fates and evils of

the world, because she's too weak to stand up for you.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

> And when a nada doesn't stand up for the child after the child has

> reported molestation, it sends the message to the child that they

> aren't important -- they aren't worth defending. What a terrible

> feeling it must be, to a powerless child, to know you're totally

> alone -- that your mother has tossed you to the fates and evils of

> the world, because she's too weak to stand up for you.

>

> -Kyla

Yes, Kyla -

I think this 'compounded' punishment is some of the

cruelest and most reality-warping of the experiences

that KOs suffer in the borderline family. Some are

subjected to the worst -- physical molestation --

but even when it's less than that, it's still

unthinkably sadistic. First, the child is abused,

then the family refuses to acknowledge it (or even

ridicules the child) causing the innocent one to feel

guilty and abandoned on top of everything else. The

message is to distrust society and God, even one's

own perceptions and memory, live in fear. Effective

recovery is postponed, the perpetrators go unpunished.

It's very sad. One of my wishes is that young people

could be alerted earlier in their life that the fault

is not theirs. But I don't know how that would work.

[Guest guest]

Hi,Sara Jo...I think that everything you've said makes perfect

sense.You wrote:

> " Sometimes my fiancee and i will be sitting in the living room

> watching a movie or something, and he will rub my shoulders, or

touch

> me somehow (in a totally appropriate way) and I have this instinct

to

> get away from him, to make the touching stop. then i have to stop

and

> think for a second and say to myself " wait a minute, this is

> okay....this is jeremy, i love him and want him to touch me " . buti

> think this " flight " response that i get sometimes is just a weird

> subconsious thing that happens because my body is remembering the

> terrible past. im not sure if im making any sense here.

>

> And all this crap i have to deal with is because my stupid NADA

> didn't have the balls to say something to her own father for

> molesting her own daughter. this is something i have come to terms

> with only recently, and everytime i think about it i am in complete

> disbelief that it happened and that she knew about it and wouldn't

do

> anything about it. "

I was also molested,by a school teacher (ages 11-12) and before then

something worse,repeated rapes (ages 5-8),but not by a family

member.I was about your age when I started to try to come to terms

with these events.I'm very sorry those things happened to you.I can't

even imagine the trauma of having the perp be your own grandfather.I

understand what you said in another post about not thinking you'd be

believed if even the people who were supposed to love you the most

didn't believe you.That is actually a logical conclusion to make.I

thought the same thing.If the people closest to me don't care,why

would a stranger care? Why should I try to tell anyone else? I did

tell my second grade teacher but she laughed at me and asked me if

I'd seen what I was telling her " on tv " .

I know what you mean about having a subconscious reaction because

your body is remembering the terrible past.That makes total sense--

that is exactly what it is.These kinds of memories get stored in the

more primitive limbic system when we aren't able to keep them in our

conscious awareness and process them through the more sophisticated

networks of our brains.What happens then is that we have an automatic

primitive " flight or fight " response when any situation reminds us of

the trauma.I found that the more I processed the reality of the

abuse,the less I had this automatic reaction over time.The good news

is that it's never too late to bring the memory of abuse into

conscious awareness and to allow your brain to integrate it.That

seems to happen on its own as long as you don't repress the memory:

your mind WILL integrate it if you remind yourself WHY you are having

that " flight or fight " response when it happens.I no longer feel as

controlled by automatic responses and memory flashbacks as I used to

be when I was triggered by something.I used to feel re-victimized by

my own responses and memories,but I feel now that I am the one in

control and I have enough detachment from it now not to feel

victimized: I can pass from that now onto something good that is

happening in the present instead of feeling like I am being dragged

back into the past.I'm sure you can get to that point,too,if you keep

working at it.

Feeling like you're in " complete disbelief " that it happened is part

of the process of integrating it and moving on from it.That was the

first thing I felt when I started to accept the abuse-again,when I

was around your age.It seems like you have to go through that stage

in order to arrive at the next one and it's probably the hardest

stage to work your way past.I have had alot of anger at both nada and

fada for abandoning me to those abusers.It's alot less these days

because I have other,better things to think about but being really

angry is a necessary step on the path to healing.Being disbelieved

piles on yet another trauma that also needs to be processed and I

think getting angry about that too is healthy and it helps to clear

the way forward,because without it,you'd never access your own

truth.You had EVERY RIGHT to be believed and to receive an

immediate,helpful,protective response.Hating your mother for this is

entirely appropriate--as Kyla said,she totally failed you.

Once something is within your conscious awareness,you CAN do

something about it.You CAN heal from this.I can tell you that in my

own experience,the stage of disbelief and being angry doesn't last

forever,as long as you keep dealing with it and don't try to repress

it.It passes into acceptance and becomes a part of your reality that

is under YOUR control now.I think you need to set boundaries with

your FOO for the sake of your own healing,with no apologies,since

they seem unable to acknowledge the terrible reality of how you were

traumatized and abused.My FOO was the same way.Going NC while you're

still young gives you a chance to step out of the dysfunction and to

discover what YOU need and how to honor YOU.Truly,you deserve nothing

less.You've done nothing wrong! Every single feeling you have about

the abuse-from rage to sorrow to disgust to WHATEVER you feel-is

absolutely legitimate and totally normal and ok.It is your right to

process any feelings that come up,as they come up,however they come

up-and no matter how intense they are,remember that they are a normal

part of the process of healing.

I wish you all the best,Sara Jo

-

[Guest guest]

Wow, so did I. I would have the most intense conversations with myself

in my head . I would also lay awake at night remembering all the

embarrassing or mean things I had ever done in my young life, filling

up with shame and sadness at myself. I would feel remorse about my

actions and resolve to improve my behavior in the future.

My nada would complain bitterly from the time I was 3 that I didn't

talk to her about things. Well of course not, she couldn't fathom what

was going on in my head. She was too busy rampaging to stop and think.

Even if she could, she wouldn't put up with it. Anger was to be

squashed, sadness banished, indignation punished.

My dad was the only parent to whom I could reveal parts of my inner

dialog. I was punished for this too, with repeated rages from nada

about how I didn't talk to her and a teary eyed comment at age 10

about how I clearly loved my father more than her.

And yet, I got the bullsh1t about how I could always feel free to come

and talk to her about anything. The one time I was berated into

actually talking to her about a real life problem at age 21 she raged

at me for hours and hit me. Yeah, that went over really well.

qwerty

>

> In my childhood, I had a dialog going on in my head about

> the world around me -- about art and animated movies and

> God and the cosmos and where did I come from? My parents

> had nothing to do with this healthy, intellectual curiosity.

>

> In the end, she just couldn't connect. It wasn't in her.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Wow, so did I. I would have the most intense conversations with myself

> in my head . I would also lay awake at night remembering all the

> embarrassing or mean things I had ever done in my young life ...

Hi Qwerty,

It sounds like you and I experienced a similar kind

of isolation in our childhoods.

Thganks for writing.

[Guest guest]

,

Hmm....

Just wanted to comment on the paragraph below. First, let me say that

I really appreciate your comments on this board. You often give me

something new to think about, or remind me of an event I'd forgotten

from my past.

You wrote " some are subjected to the worst -- physical molestation. "

How true, and what a horrible thing for anyone to experience. I did

wonder, though, when I read that... if sexual abuse is the worst,

which abuse is the best? An absurd thought, of course, as all forms of

abuse are cruel attempts at negating a person.

I often have a nagging thought in the back of my mind that maybe I

wasn't really abused, because the abuse was (mostly) all verbal. If I

don't have any physical scars, how do I know it really happened? If

nobody put their hands on me where they shouldn't have, how do I know

I have a right to my anger, my pain, my claim to being abused at all?

I have to constantly remind myself that what happened was real, that

my memories are true and not exaggerated, that my mom really is a

self-absorbed, conniving, controlling nada, and not the wonderful,

loving mother she claims to be.

So I guess my point is that sometimes we categorize different types of

abuse according to perceived severity. I know I often do in my own

mind. But I find that for me, this is often a self-destructive pattern

that leads back to a painful road of self-doubt ( " You weren't abused.

You're full of it. You're making a big deal out of nothing. There are

lots of people who were constantly beaten or sexually assaulted.

Nothing like that happened to you. " ). In the end, I can't really think

of it as a greater than or less than equation. We all went through

different houses of horror, have emerged with different scars, and are

at various stages on our journey to a better place in life. I guess I

would prefer to think of different types of abuse as just

that--different varieties of cruel hell inflicted by one person on

another.

qwerty

>

> I think this 'compounded' punishment is some of the

> cruelest and most reality-warping of the experiences

> that KOs suffer in the borderline family. Some are

> subjected to the worst -- physical molestation --

> but even when it's less than that, it's still

> unthinkably sadistic.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

It certainly does! I spent a lot of time in my head, just thinking, or

reading, listening to music. When I was a young child, I was lucky

enough to have had two very good male friends who were just as weird

and geeky as I was. When they moved away, I had a good female friend

until around 10th grade. We sort of drifted apart, which hurt me deeply.

I think ever since then, I've felt like an isolated weirdo with

occasional blips of close friendships. I sort of take it for granted

that most people think I'm weird. As a result, I have few close

friends, and those I have are currently living very far from me now. I

am amazed and grateful that I am married to a wonderful person, but

also at times bewildered that he sticks around for the long haul.

It usually takes me a long time to make friends, and the process is

fraught with self-doubt and loneliness. Am I being presumptuous? Do

they really like me? Are they just being polite? Have I shared too

much? Too little? I feel like a non-person who is trying to act like

all the other people do. Like an outlaw attempting to hang with high

society folk. Just thinking about it hurts.

qwerty

>

> Hi Qwerty,

>

> It sounds like you and I experienced a similar kind

> of isolation in our childhoods.

>

> Thganks for writing.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I am so sorry that you had the experiences you did as a child. But

it makes me feel better to know that what i am going through right

now with the realization and disbelief of everything is a normal

process to dealing with sexual abuse. One thing you said was

"

I understand what you said in another post about not thinking you'd

be

believed if even the people who were supposed to love you the most

didn't believe you. " .

The sad thing is, my NADA DID believe me. She never questioned if it

were really true or not.She just didn't want to do anything about

it. This is what makes me believe that my NADA was sexually abused

too. She didn't want to jeapardize her relationship with her father,

whom she practically worshipped and continues to do so now, even

though he is dead. In fact, the whole family worshipped him.

It is one thing to admit you've been sexually abused and they don't

believe you. but it's another thing to admit it and they believe

you, but they didn't do anything about it. My NADA enabled my

grandfather to do what he did to me.

>

> > " Sometimes my fiancee and i will be sitting in the living room

> > watching a movie or something, and he will rub my shoulders, or

> touch

> > me somehow (in a totally appropriate way) and I have this

instinct

> to

> > get away from him, to make the touching stop. then i have to

stop

> and

> > think for a second and say to myself " wait a minute, this is

> > okay....this is jeremy, i love him and want him to touch me " .

buti

> > think this " flight " response that i get sometimes is just a

weird

> > subconsious thing that happens because my body is remembering

the

> > terrible past. im not sure if im making any sense here.

> >

> > And all this crap i have to deal with is because my stupid NADA

> > didn't have the balls to say something to her own father for

> > molesting her own daughter. this is something i have come to

terms

> > with only recently, and everytime i think about it i am in

complete

> > disbelief that it happened and that she knew about it and

wouldn't

> do

> > anything about it. "

>

> I was also molested,by a school teacher (ages 11-12) and before

then

> something worse,repeated rapes (ages 5-8),but not by a family

> member.I was about your age when I started to try to come to terms

> with these events.I'm very sorry those things happened to you.I

can't

> even imagine the trauma of having the perp be your own

grandfather.I

> understand what you said in another post about not thinking you'd

be

> believed if even the people who were supposed to love you the most

> didn't believe you.That is actually a logical conclusion to make.I

> thought the same thing.If the people closest to me don't care,why

> would a stranger care? Why should I try to tell anyone else? I did

> tell my second grade teacher but she laughed at me and asked me if

> I'd seen what I was telling her " on tv " .

>

> I know what you mean about having a subconscious reaction because

> your body is remembering the terrible past.That makes total sense--

> that is exactly what it is.These kinds of memories get stored in

the

> more primitive limbic system when we aren't able to keep them in

our

> conscious awareness and process them through the more

sophisticated

> networks of our brains.What happens then is that we have an

automatic

> primitive " flight or fight " response when any situation reminds us

of

> the trauma.I found that the more I processed the reality of the

> abuse,the less I had this automatic reaction over time.The good

news

> is that it's never too late to bring the memory of abuse into

> conscious awareness and to allow your brain to integrate it.That

> seems to happen on its own as long as you don't repress the

memory:

> your mind WILL integrate it if you remind yourself WHY you are

having

> that " flight or fight " response when it happens.I no longer feel

as

> controlled by automatic responses and memory flashbacks as I used

to

> be when I was triggered by something.I used to feel re-victimized

by

> my own responses and memories,but I feel now that I am the one in

> control and I have enough detachment from it now not to feel

> victimized: I can pass from that now onto something good that is

> happening in the present instead of feeling like I am being

dragged

> back into the past.I'm sure you can get to that point,too,if you

keep

> working at it.

>

> Feeling like you're in " complete disbelief " that it happened is

part

> of the process of integrating it and moving on from it.That was

the

> first thing I felt when I started to accept the abuse-again,when I

> was around your age.It seems like you have to go through that

stage

> in order to arrive at the next one and it's probably the hardest

> stage to work your way past.I have had alot of anger at both nada

and

> fada for abandoning me to those abusers.It's alot less these days

> because I have other,better things to think about but being really

> angry is a necessary step on the path to healing.Being disbelieved

> piles on yet another trauma that also needs to be processed and I

> think getting angry about that too is healthy and it helps to

clear

> the way forward,because without it,you'd never access your own

> truth.You had EVERY RIGHT to be believed and to receive an

> immediate,helpful,protective response.Hating your mother for this

is

> entirely appropriate--as Kyla said,she totally failed you.

>

> Once something is within your conscious awareness,you CAN do

> something about it.You CAN heal from this.I can tell you that in

my

> own experience,the stage of disbelief and being angry doesn't last

> forever,as long as you keep dealing with it and don't try to

repress

> it.It passes into acceptance and becomes a part of your reality

that

> is under YOUR control now.I think you need to set boundaries with

> your FOO for the sake of your own healing,with no apologies,since

> they seem unable to acknowledge the terrible reality of how you

were

> traumatized and abused.My FOO was the same way.Going NC while

you're

> still young gives you a chance to step out of the dysfunction and

to

> discover what YOU need and how to honor YOU.Truly,you deserve

nothing

> less.You've done nothing wrong! Every single feeling you have

about

> the abuse-from rage to sorrow to disgust to WHATEVER you feel-is

> absolutely legitimate and totally normal and ok.It is your right

to

> process any feelings that come up,as they come up,however they

come

> up-and no matter how intense they are,remember that they are a

normal

> part of the process of healing.

>

> I wish you all the best,Sara Jo

> -

>

[Guest guest]

I should know better already (especially with this group), but I thought I was

the only one like this!! I've always been a loner. Even in grade school I hid in

the cabinet with the paper towels rather than play with the other children.

There was big bush to hide behind at recess too. I've always had only one or

two close friends (right now I'm at a lifetime max of 5, I think I can only

handle that many because three live in other cities and I'm married to one). I

always think I'm coming on too strong, or being too aloof and coming off as

arrogant. To me, dealing with people feels like a complex dance I never learned

the steps of. I spent most of my time in books and with my headphones on. By the

time I started high school I'd read every book recommended before admittance to

Harvard (the " top 500 " of the western canon, basically) and everything in the

community library, but I'd only been to two parties and had only one friend.

You mentioned feeling like a " non-person " . I've always felt that, but couldn't

put a name to it until one day my freshman year of college. I had been DEEPLY

depressed for a couple weeks and when I left my room that day, I turned a corner

to see a few other girls in the hall and I just stopped. Some alarm went off in

my head and I thought " I can't do this. If I leave my room, people will see that

I'm not human. " The rest was just a vague feeling of some impending doom that

would occur if anyone made this " observation " . The same anxiety I always felt

around people, just more potent and with a new name. So I went back in my room

and stayed all day trying to figure out what that meant. I've never heard anyone

else describe that feeling. It was just awful!!! I thought I was really losing

my mind.

In a related note, when that 'people-anxiety' would rear it's ugly head, I

usually calmed it a little by telling myself I was just a bookish person,

intelligent and capable, but a social mess. I was okay with that. Then, though

for purely financial reasons, I had to leave college. It was my utopia. I loved

every single second and suddenly it was gone and I was out in the world with no

degree, no money, no place to live and no idea what to do about it. Since then I

haven't been able to quiet the " people-anxiety " with that " I'm just bookish "

line. If I'm just too academic to deal well with people, where's my degree?

Where's the career in academia I dreamt of my entire life? I wanted to be a

an scholar, primarily (if not entirely) focused on Marlowe, that or a

linguist working on the Proto-Indo-European project at some think tank or

university (I was pursuing a triple degree, so I had several grad school

options). I'm basically a secretary, and

before that I was a waitress. I took my last final in December of 2004 and I

haven't come to terms with it yet at all. I've been running around dealing with

that " people-anxiety " and everything else, without the one bolster my

self-esteem had. I'm trying to develop new ones. I don't think it'll work very

well though.

Jae

Re: sex, love & mortification

Hi ,

It certainly does! I spent a lot of time in my head, just thinking, or

reading, listening to music. When I was a young child, I was lucky

enough to have had two very good male friends who were just as weird

and geeky as I was. When they moved away, I had a good female friend

until around 10th grade. We sort of drifted apart, which hurt me deeply.

I think ever since then, I've felt like an isolated weirdo with

occasional blips of close friendships. I sort of take it for granted

that most people think I'm weird. As a result, I have few close

friends, and those I have are currently living very far from me now. I

am amazed and grateful that I am married to a wonderful person, but

also at times bewildered that he sticks around for the long haul.

It usually takes me a long time to make friends, and the process is

fraught with self-doubt and loneliness. Am I being presumptuous? Do

they really like me? Are they just being polite? Have I shared too

much? Too little? I feel like a non-person who is trying to act like

all the other people do. Like an outlaw attempting to hang with high

society folk. Just thinking about it hurts.

qwerty

>

> Hi Qwerty,

>

> It sounds like you and I experienced a similar kind

> of isolation in our childhoods.

>

> Thganks for writing.

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

man, i was screamed at, hit, and ignored on a near daily basis and i

still doubt whether or not i was abused. what standard am i using?

when i would complain, my mom would tell me that she had it way worse

as a kid. i'm not entirely sure this is true, but even if it is, what

kind of standard is that? then i compare myself to kids who work in

sweatshops or are starving to death. was my childhood really that bad

comparatively? i don't know the answers to these questions.

and whether or not i was OFFICIALLY abused seems kind of moot after a

while. i wonder what difference it makes. i'm just talking for me

here, of course, but sometimes i get confused when i think about my

childhood. i just wonder, what's the point? it's in the past. it's

not like i'm going to get any satisfaction from the situation with my

mom, so shouldn't i just try to be the best human i can be? i guess

the thing that really gets me is that i feel like there must be some

horrible monster-bink lurking deep down inside of me that will surface

and i won't have any control over it. i wonder whether or not it's

possible to live this kind of stuff as a kid and turn out normal. i

don't know. i feel normal, but what if i'm wrong? what if everything

crumbles and the real me is something i hate? and that's another

thing. i don't hate myself...but sometimes i think i should.

constantly (CONSTANTLY) hearing how selfish and inconsiderate i was

really did a number.

so yeah, even when my little sisters independently corroborate that i

was frequently physically hit by my mom, i still have trouble deciding

whether or not it was really " abuse. "

bink

> >

> > I think this 'compounded' punishment is some of the

> > cruelest and most reality-warping of the experiences

> > that KOs suffer in the borderline family. Some are

> > subjected to the worst -- physical molestation --

> > but even when it's less than that, it's still

> > unthinkably sadistic.

>

[Guest guest]

wrote

But then there was the world according to nada -- where all messages

had to be mixed and everything and every moment had to be as

mortifying as one could make it.

OH YES.

My daughter, whose dad/my ex is also BP, and I both have social

anxiety, as I notice here many KOs do, and this mortification of

everything and every moment plays into it strongly. It's as if

the " humiliation " neural pathway has been so deeply burned in our

brains that every conversation, every social interaction doesn't

exist just in that moment. Instead it is replayed, examined, held up

to the light, re-examined, taken apart, turned upside down etc. all

to our shame about how we acted or failed to act, said or did

something utterly stupid, how stupid people will think we are. Know

we are. Know the frauds we are.

(Palms beginning to sweat now)

As we discussed this, we came to realize that life with our

respective nada/fada was about unrelenting daily humiliation: of

being too fat, too thin, too quiet (standing there like an idiot),

too loud (everyone can hear you); about being too smart (nerd) or not

smart enough (dummy); it was about eating meals (how you chew, how

much/little/what type food you eat), how you dress (too tight, too

loose, too slutty, not attractive enough - don't you want boys to

like you? Hint: It's a trick question) and then it's about shopping

for clothes and the actual clothes you get stuck with. It was about

going to the bathroom & hygiene & things that should have been

awfully damn simple like just brushing your teeth. My nada

would " squawk " daily but not really rage; humiliation however I could

count on.

My first year in a new school, my 12th birthday was the only time I

was allowed to have a " birthday party " & I was limited to just 3

friends. Nada picked up 5 2-piece KFC chicken snacks after an early-

release school day. Fried chicken/KFC were/are her favorites. My 3

friends, nada & I each had one sitting around the kitchen table. A

quick slice of a box mix cake that I'd made myself the night before,

and then they went home. Happy Birthday! Then it was on to being

eternally grateful Nada let me have the " party " .

Everything, everything involved being thoroughly ashamed. It's like

it happened yesterday. My hands are like ice and my face is hot.

[Guest guest]

damn. a triple major. and people think i'm crazy about college

(which i am...totally...i've been in college since 2000, got the

bachelor's in anthropology, spent 2 years doing animation, now i'm in

classes for teaching certification, and i'm taking graduate courses

this summer. i plan on getting some sort of mathematics-related

masters, some sort of phd, and a degree in paleontology at SOME point...).

i had major human anxiety when i was younger. right about 7th grade,

i could barely leave the house. i just didn't want people to see me.

i thought i was disgusting and i couldn't go outside without putting

on makeup. then i had a realization that always stuck with me: who

exactly was i trying to impress? sure, i think i'm a big deal, but

there are 6500000000 billion people out there and only about 200 even

know who i am. is anybody REALLY going to notice if i don't wear

makeup? is anybody REALLY going to notice that i exist or not?

i really hope you get to go back to college. i totally understand

what you're saying about it being a safe-haven. actually, now that

i've started teaching middle school, it's kind of a similar academic

non-real-world vibe which is really awesome for an education FREAK

like me (like, all my coworkers are people who don't want to live in

the real world, too).

bink

>

> I should know better already (especially with this group), but I

thought I was the only one like this!! I've always been a loner. Even

in grade school I hid in the cabinet with the paper towels rather than

play with the other children. There was big bush to hide behind at

recess too. I've always had only one or two close friends (right

now I'm at a lifetime max of 5, I think I can only handle that many

because three live in other cities and I'm married to one). I always

think I'm coming on too strong, or being too aloof and coming off as

arrogant. To me, dealing with people feels like a complex dance I

never learned the steps of. I spent most of my time in books and with

my headphones on. By the time I started high school I'd read every

book recommended before admittance to Harvard (the " top 500 " of the

western canon, basically) and everything in the community library, but

I'd only been to two parties and had only one friend.

>

> You mentioned feeling like a " non-person " . I've always felt that,

but couldn't put a name to it until one day my freshman year of

college. I had been DEEPLY depressed for a couple weeks and when I

left my room that day, I turned a corner to see a few other girls in

the hall and I just stopped. Some alarm went off in my head and I

thought " I can't do this. If I leave my room, people will see that I'm

not human. " The rest was just a vague feeling of some impending doom

that would occur if anyone made this " observation " . The same anxiety I

always felt around people, just more potent and with a new name. So I

went back in my room and stayed all day trying to figure out what that

meant. I've never heard anyone else describe that feeling. It was just

awful!!! I thought I was really losing my mind.

>

> In a related note, when that 'people-anxiety' would rear it's ugly

head, I usually calmed it a little by telling myself I was just a

bookish person, intelligent and capable, but a social mess. I was okay

with that. Then, though for purely financial reasons, I had to leave

college. It was my utopia. I loved every single second and suddenly it

was gone and I was out in the world with no degree, no money, no place

to live and no idea what to do about it. Since then I haven't been

able to quiet the " people-anxiety " with that " I'm just bookish " line.

If I'm just too academic to deal well with people, where's my degree?

Where's the career in academia I dreamt of my entire life? I wanted to

be a an scholar, primarily (if not entirely) focused on

Marlowe, that or a linguist working on the Proto-Indo-European project

at some think tank or university (I was pursuing a triple degree, so I

had several grad school options). I'm basically a secretary, and

> before that I was a waitress. I took my last final in December of

2004 and I haven't come to terms with it yet at all. I've been running

around dealing with that " people-anxiety " and everything else, without

the one bolster my self-esteem had. I'm trying to develop new ones. I

don't think it'll work very well though.

>

> Jae

>

[Guest guest]

> In a related note, when that 'people-anxiety' would rear it's ugly

head, I usually calmed it a little by telling myself I was just a

bookish person, intelligent and capable, but a social mess. I was okay

with that. Then, though for purely financial reasons, I had to leave

college. It was my utopia.<

I used to tell myself a variant of the same thing! I'd walk home from

the bus stop, looking down at the ground (naturally) and thinking

about my place in the world, the way I imagined people perceived me,

etc. I'd think " well, I guess I'm pretty ordinary, but on the other

hand I'm kind of weird. And I'm not pretty. But it least I'm smart. "

For the longest time, I honestly thought that was my one strength. It

was, in a way, my excuse for living. As though my intelligence was the

only redeeming feature that made me worthy of my own life!

> I loved every single second and suddenly it was gone and I was out

in the world with no degree, no money, no place to live and no idea

what to do about it. Since then I haven't been able to quiet the

" people-anxiety " with that " I'm just bookish " line. If I'm just too

academic to deal well with people, where's my degree? Where's the

career in academia I dreamt of my entire life? I wanted to be a

an scholar, primarily (if not entirely) focused on Marlowe,

that or a linguist working on the Proto-Indo-European project at some

think tank or university (I was pursuing a triple degree, so I had

several grad school options).<

Wow, that's quite harsh! You had some difficult extenuating

circumstances that prevented you from completing a very ambitious

degree. But I'll bet your heart was in it more than a lot of students

who just want to pass their exams. It's not like you had wonderful,

supportive parents who would do anything to help you achieve your

dream, right? I think even attempting a triple degree is quite an

achievement, and a testament to the depth and breadth of your

intellectual curiosity. In other words, good for you!

> I'm basically a secretary, and before that I was a waitress. I took

my last final in December of 2004 and I haven't come to terms with it

yet at all. I've been running around dealing with that

" people-anxiety " and everything else, without the one bolster my

self-esteem had. I'm trying to develop new ones. I don't think it'll

work very well though.<

You have a job and you're dealing with your anxiety issues, and the

BPD stuff, and everything that goes along with it. That's a lot to

handle, and you're working on it. I think you can pat yourself on the

back for that. And you're earning your own keep, making your own way

with a job and a place to live. That's an achievement in itself! You

can pat yourself on the back for that too. A piece of paper doesn't

really prove to yourself or anyone else how intelligent and educated

you are. You know you're both, if you look back on your life and your

interests. Maybe now is a time to get yourself settled financially,

and work on yourself emotionally. Perhaps in the future, you might go

back to school. Lots of people get degrees later than age 22. It's not

easy, I imagine, but it can be done, and how much more so must that

achievement be satisfying?

I think those of us who take refuge in books, music, art did so

because the world of people was too scary. I have a good friend who

couldn't stand me when we first met. She thought I was aloof and

snobby. We spoke about it once after we had become friends, and I

explained, briefly, that I wasn't trying to be aloof or snobby.

Rather, I was afraid of people because my mother was cruel to me as a

child. Makes sense, doesn't it, considering the first people we meet

in the world? Nada's insane, undermining, mean, cold, heartless.

Fada's weak, invisible, ineffective. We are hurting and

vulnerable--people around us can smell it. We tend to attract people

like us, or people who want to prey on us. One could ask how can we

*not* fear people?

I've learned various coping mechanisms, some of them adaptive, others

maladaptive. Humor is a great tool, but I can sometimes get sarcastic

which isn't very nice. Put me in a room full of people I don't know

and I freeze--terrified. These social situations are so scary to me...

What was it someone here said, like dancing a waltz when you don't

know the steps? It's all left feet and stubbed toes. We have to teach

ourselves all those moves that others take for granted. I'll never be

a prima ballerina, but maybe some day I'll do the jitterbug .

qwerty

[Guest guest]

Hi Bink,

You said:

" i guess

> the thing that really gets me is that i feel like there must be some

> horrible monster-bink lurking deep down inside of me that will

surface

> and i won't have any control over it. i wonder whether or not it's

> possible to live this kind of stuff as a kid and turn out normal. i

> don't know. i feel normal, but what if i'm wrong? what if

everything

> crumbles and the real me is something i hate? and that's another

> thing. i don't hate myself...but sometimes i think i should.

> constantly (CONSTANTLY) hearing how selfish and inconsiderate i was

> really did a number "

I could have written that myself. This is exactly how i feel almost

EVERY minute of EVERY day. My biggest fear in life is turning out

like NADA. What if it happens, and i dont realize what im doing? I

know you can't " catch " a personality disorder, but what if my " fleas "

become actual traits that i can't control? I don't want to put my

future children through this. I feel normal too, but i think that

feeling wrong about ourselves is just normal for us because we've

been told our whole lives by our NADA's that we are wrong to feel

anything. one thing that i think about when i start thinking about

how " wrong and horrible " i might be, is to look at the other people

in my life.i don't have the same problem with anyone else like i do

with my NADA. if we were the ones who were " bad " , we would be having

these struggles with EVERYONE in our lives, wouldnt we?

> > >

> > > I think this 'compounded' punishment is some of the

> > > cruelest and most reality-warping of the experiences

> > > that KOs suffer in the borderline family. Some are

> > > subjected to the worst -- physical molestation --

> > > but even when it's less than that, it's still

> > > unthinkably sadistic.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

You have written some very good insights. Our BP parent and his/her

spouse enabler do not have significant conversations of any sort

with each other - not with their children. I believe they think

their lectures, rantings and ravings are those significant

conversations.

I never asked for therapy. I tried not to ask for anything, because

asking for something was showing how selfish you were. My nada did,

however, claim I was crazy often enough that I determined to seek

out psychological help as soon as I could - to find out if I was,

and to cure myself.

Sylvia

>

>

>.....

> I have no recollection in my life of nada and fada ever having

> what I would consider to be a deep, connecting discussion with

> one another. And not only with each other, but with me or

> anyone else. I would so love to think that for some time in

> my life that we once actually connected, but it never happened

> at all. By comparison, on the WTO boards, I can chat briefly

> with total strangers and feel a sense of rich connection and

> communication that was systematically denied to me in those

> first 18 years of my life. ..... When I was 16 I asked to see a

> psychologist. Nada said NO, of course, I didn't need one ...

>

> Here's a question: How many KOs were denied therapy after

> they requested it? Obviously nada could't risk having

> someone find out that there might be something wrong in

> the family -- I mean, something wrong besides me! And

> I was the one asking for the therapy. It's nada's Catch

> 22: You're crazy, you can't see a therapist!

>

> In my childhood, I had a dialog going on in my head about

> the world around me -- about art and animated movies and

> God and the cosmos and where did I come from? My parents

> had nothing to do with this healthy, intellectual curiosity.

>

> So I'm talking here about people connecting with each

> other -- in a profound, wondrous sense -- and that is what

> I think is largely missing from the Borderline Personality.

> At least, for my nada. All of her weird sexual fixations,

> her provocative nudity, her humiliations and insults to fada,

> her raging WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU DOING IN THE BATHROOM ...

>

> In the end, she just couldn't connect. It wasn't in her.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

richard wrote...

In my childhood, I had a dialog going on in my head about

the world around me -- about art and animated movies and

God and the cosmos and where did I come from? My parents

had nothing to do with this healthy, intellectual curiosity.

*******************************

wow, i used to just lay around and let my mind wander endlessly about things and

I was

just a child. I can remember saying things to the youth leader at my church that

he was

actually astonished that i was contemplating much less comprehending. I ALWAYS

got the

comments of being mature and insightful for my age comments too. (Being treated

like a

mini adult, much?)

I did spend a lot of time talking to my dad in the garage. As close as I came

to therapy for

many years. When nada finally did send me to see HER therapist, I believe it was

so she

could have a " professional " agree with her assessment that all of our

relationship

problems were MY fault...I was rebelling, I was disrespectful, I was lazy, I had

no

morals...WHATEVER. I don't remember seeing this lady for very long so nada must

not have

gotten the agreement she was looking for.

I know that even now I have an endless curiosity about things that strike my

fancy. I am

currently reading three different books that deal with Quantum Physics and/or

Holographic Theory (when I am not devouring my new survival manuals on BPD) I

was a

less than popular child and I practically LIVED in the public library from

about second thru

fifth grades. They had a kind of " cubby " area under the stairs in the youth

section that had

vinyl covered cushions scattered on the floor. I would scour the new releases

every week

for something that interested me. But I digress.

Honestly I think all of us that end up here questioning the un reality of our

childhoods are

very introspective people with a strong sense of survival.

I also think that if you have made it to fifty something without recovering any

memories of

abuse then there are probably none to recover. I DO remember someone saying at

one

time that KO's that were NOT molested still tended to have those signs for some

reason

although why escapes me at the moment. Maybe it was kids of parents that HAD

been

molested that expressed those same signs? Maybe Randi knows this one? Anyway,

I

know everything that I have read about childhood sexual abuse says that even

those that

repress memories often recover those memories when they get into their thirties

and

forties or when their children reach the age that they were when they were

molested. I am

sure there are others on this site that would know much better than I on this

subject. I

have read up some on this subject because I have many clients that have been

abused over

the years but even before that I knew that my nada had been abused and even my

dad was

raped as a young teen when he was hitchhiking. For years i have drawn people to

me that

have been abused as children in this horrific way. I think it is because I am

one of the only

people that listen to them without being skeptical or just outright non-belief.

It is like I

send out some signal that they know they will be heard and believed and I am ok

with

people telling me these things. I don't freak out easily.

Keep up the posts, . You always seem to start or become involved in a

thread that I

get so much out of.

xoxo Carla

[Guest guest]

Bink, you crack me up>ROFLMAO

XOXO Carla

" bink1227 " wrote:

brand-spanking-new-never-before-tried-sure-to-give-you-cramps-in-muscles-you

-never-even-knew-you-had ways to have sex every month, make their

money. really, now...how many sex secrets can there really be? and

why are girls trying to read guys' minds anyway? wouldn't it just be

easier to take out a subscription to playboy and find out for

themselves...or...oh my gosh...ASK THEM!??!?!?

AND AM I THE ONLY GIRL IN AMERICA THAT JUST LIKES TO HAVE REGULAR SEX

ANYMORE?!??!?!

[Guest guest]

Hi Sara Jo

" Sara Jo " wrote:

i don't have the same problem with anyone else like i do

> with my NADA. if we were the ones who were " bad " , we would be having

> these struggles with EVERYONE in our lives, wouldnt we?

Amen and hallelujah. I swear my brother just said the same thing to me yesterday

about our

NADA.

xoxo Carla

[Guest guest]

> I DO remember someone saying at one

> time that KO's that were NOT molested still tended to have those

signs for some reason

> although why escapes me at the moment.

I often wondered, when I was a tween, if I had been molested and

didn't remember it. My guess would be that there is a similarity

between the effects of being molested and being raised by a nada.

While a nada might not molest, she might invade her child in many

other ways. Reading your diary. Staring at your body in the dressing

room as you start to develop, instead of showing you some respect and

modesty and looking away. Refusing to allow you to have private

thoughts. Eavesdropping. Laughing at your pain.

Have you ever felt like you were *emotionally* raped? I think this is

where those feelings come in. It's invading boundaries, emotional and

physical.

[Guest guest]

> Wow, so did I. I would have the most intense conversations with myself

> in my head . I would also lay awake at night remembering all the

> embarrassing or mean things I had ever done in my young life, filling

> up with shame and sadness at myself. I would feel remorse about my

> actions and resolve to improve my behavior in the future.

>

> My nada would complain bitterly from the time I was 3 that I didn't

> talk to her about things. Well of course not, she couldn't fathom what

> was going on in my head. She was too busy rampaging to stop and think.

> Even if she could, she wouldn't put up with it. Anger was to be

> squashed, sadness banished, indignation punished.

Wow, eerie, sounds soooo familiar! I remember her raging at me in high

school about me being a " clam " and not communicating.. well no

wonder I didnt communicate! if I ever did she'd rage, hold it against

me, or dismiss it. I've been realising lately I have a lot of anger

myself towards her and FOO (some siblings) because I still use silence

to protect myself so, while no one really has a clue what I feel or

need and never take that into account, I get to hear about her (and

their) problems and what my responsibilities supposedly are, ad

nauseum. Does anyone else have trouble expressing their needs and

feelings?

[Guest guest]

I once caught my mother in the bathroom reading my diary. i acted

upset about it, kinda yelled a little bit. she just acted passive

about it and said things like " whatever sara, it was easy to find "

and acted like it was no big deal. She completely invaded my privacy.

I don't think she saw us kids as " real people " and that we didn't

deserve the same courtesies as everyone else. she acted like finding

and reading my diary was no big deal, and neither was invading my

privacy.....i even think she told me once that i didn't deserve

privacy because she couldn't trust me.

>

> > I DO remember someone saying at one

> > time that KO's that were NOT molested still tended to have those

> signs for some reason

> > although why escapes me at the moment.

>

>

>

> I often wondered, when I was a tween, if I had been molested and

> didn't remember it. My guess would be that there is a similarity

> between the effects of being molested and being raised by a nada.

>

> While a nada might not molest, she might invade her child in many

> other ways. Reading your diary. Staring at your body in the

dressing

> room as you start to develop, instead of showing you some respect

and

> modesty and looking away. Refusing to allow you to have private

> thoughts. Eavesdropping. Laughing at your pain.

>

> Have you ever felt like you were *emotionally* raped? I think this

is

> where those feelings come in. It's invading boundaries, emotional

and

> physical.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks qwerty! That was a really insightful reply. You're right, I am making my

way and working on my emotional health and hopefully someday I will go back to

school. It's the strongest drive/desire I have, so I'm bound to make it work

somehow.

I'm glad (sort of!) to hear I'm not the only one who felt this way. Like I said,

I should know better with this group, but it's so easy to feel like you're the

only one. I'm sorry I'm not, but knowing it helps quite a lot.

Jae

Re: sex, love & mortification

> In a related note, when that 'people-anxiety' would rear it's ugly

head, I usually calmed it a little by telling myself I was just a

bookish person, intelligent and capable, but a social mess. I was okay

with that. Then, though for purely financial reasons, I had to leave

college. It was my utopia.<

I used to tell myself a variant of the same thing! I'd walk home from

the bus stop, looking down at the ground (naturally) and thinking

about my place in the world, the way I imagined people perceived me,

etc. I'd think " well, I guess I'm pretty ordinary, but on the other

hand I'm kind of weird. And I'm not pretty. But it least I'm smart. "

For the longest time, I honestly thought that was my one strength. It

was, in a way, my excuse for living. As though my intelligence was the

only redeeming feature that made me worthy of my own life!

> I loved every single second and suddenly it was gone and I was out

in the world with no degree, no money, no place to live and no idea

what to do about it. Since then I haven't been able to quiet the

" people-anxiety " with that " I'm just bookish " line. If I'm just too

academic to deal well with people, where's my degree? Where's the

career in academia I dreamt of my entire life? I wanted to be a

an scholar, primarily (if not entirely) focused on Marlowe,

that or a linguist working on the Proto-Indo-European project at some

think tank or university (I was pursuing a triple degree, so I had

several grad school options).<

Wow, that's quite harsh! You had some difficult extenuating

circumstances that prevented you from completing a very ambitious

degree. But I'll bet your heart was in it more than a lot of students

who just want to pass their exams. It's not like you had wonderful,

supportive parents who would do anything to help you achieve your

dream, right? I think even attempting a triple degree is quite an

achievement, and a testament to the depth and breadth of your

intellectual curiosity. In other words, good for you!

> I'm basically a secretary, and before that I was a waitress. I took

my last final in December of 2004 and I haven't come to terms with it

yet at all. I've been running around dealing with that

" people-anxiety " and everything else, without the one bolster my

self-esteem had. I'm trying to develop new ones. I don't think it'll

work very well though.<

You have a job and you're dealing with your anxiety issues, and the

BPD stuff, and everything that goes along with it. That's a lot to

handle, and you're working on it. I think you can pat yourself on the

back for that. And you're earning your own keep, making your own way

with a job and a place to live. That's an achievement in itself! You

can pat yourself on the back for that too. A piece of paper doesn't

really prove to yourself or anyone else how intelligent and educated

you are. You know you're both, if you look back on your life and your

interests. Maybe now is a time to get yourself settled financially,

and work on yourself emotionally. Perhaps in the future, you might go

back to school. Lots of people get degrees later than age 22. It's not

easy, I imagine, but it can be done, and how much more so must that

achievement be satisfying?

I think those of us who take refuge in books, music, art did so

because the world of people was too scary. I have a good friend who

couldn't stand me when we first met. She thought I was aloof and

snobby. We spoke about it once after we had become friends, and I

explained, briefly, that I wasn't trying to be aloof or snobby.

Rather, I was afraid of people because my mother was cruel to me as a

child. Makes sense, doesn't it, considering the first people we meet

in the world? Nada's insane, undermining, mean, cold, heartless.

Fada's weak, invisible, ineffective. We are hurting and

vulnerable-- people around us can smell it. We tend to attract people

like us, or people who want to prey on us. One could ask how can we

*not* fear people?

I've learned various coping mechanisms, some of them adaptive, others

maladaptive. Humor is a great tool, but I can sometimes get sarcastic

which isn't very nice. Put me in a room full of people I don't know

and I freeze--terrified. These social situations are so scary to me...

What was it someone here said, like dancing a waltz when you don't

know the steps? It's all left feet and stubbed toes. We have to teach

ourselves all those moves that others take for granted. I'll never be

a prima ballerina, but maybe some day I'll do the jitterbug .

qwerty

________________________________________________________________________________\

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