Re: Other issues & therapy

[Guest guest]

Scout,

I don't think it very important that we know exactly what happened

when we were very young. What counts is what we thought happened.

We are not in a court of law, trying to determine guilt. We are

trying to put ourselves back together again. Our perceptions and

beliefs are what tore us apart, whether or not they are objectively

correct.

I reacted differently than my brother and my sister. I was never

able to protect myself by lying. I believed that if my mother would

ever catch me in a lie she would kill me. My brother and sister did

protect themselves by lying, and she didn't kill them.

Maybe I was just too afraid to try lying. Maybe my mother had a

very different standard for me than for them. It doesn't matter now.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

I feel like for years I spent my life reacting to others and tuned

into others because of the craziness of my foo. Each of us kids

responded differently and maybe that was personality type but we each

had a purpose: to fill a need for my mother and of course that

changed with her changing moods, etc. I have realized that my essence

was buried underneath all of that, my true self was/is intact but

buried. I wasn't a caretaker, that was the role I was forced to play

in my foo to survive, but that wasn't the real me, just a reaction to

chaois. The real me is quite different than the me growing up. Today

I am learning to build a relationship with that part of myself. I

don't know if this helps but I get the feeling that you feel you

should have stood up to her because she wasn't physically hurting you

and that you were just weak or something and I can assure you that is

false. My mother didn't hit us either but her anger was terrifying.

We have to remember how small and fragile we were. We couldn't have

stood up to that kind of force, no way. I am sure others can address

this more thoroughly but that is my two cents.

> I've posted some about my therapy and lately I have been wondering

> more about what exactly is the cause of my problems... Because the

> problems with my mom were ongoing and stressful, I had somewhat

> assumed a lot of my issues were related to her, the family

> dysfunction, etc. But I have a bit of a theory that I'm hoping

> others who were unlucky enough to experience other traumas in early

> childhood could reflect on.

>

> Do you think that it's possible that an early trauma (pre-6 years

> old) could be the root of the problems, them exacerbated by the

> unstable parenting and emotional abuse from my mother? I ask this

> because I have really come to question some of my responses to my

> mother, not to blame myself but to try and figure things out. My

> brothers didn't take her crap, they stood up for themselves, and

she

> (obviously) didn't torture or kill them. Looking at the family

> dynamics, I know their responses didn't define whether they

> were " good/bad " in my mom's eyes. She often would go from witch to

> waif whenever they didn't take her abuse. It was that easy,

really.

> And I knew that, yet I would always just freeze or cry, and comply

> with everything. There were maybe one or two times when I

responded

> differently, and she didn't torture or kill me or do anything, she

> turned waif, just like I knew she would. I didn't appreciate my

role

> in the family or need to 'care' for her. It was just like an

> automatic response. And I don't remember it really starting until

I

> was 6 or 7. Before that she still had my dad to manipulate.

>

> Anyway, I have some sketchy memories of a couple of difficult

> experiences around 4-5 years of age, one which has been verified by

> my mom awhile back (she was threatened by my uncle, an alcoholic,

> with a large knife which he put to her throat while I was there- I

> have very little recollection of this which surprised my mom when

she

> brought it up years later), and then something else that was also

> traumatic. What I'm considering is that these experiences might

have

> caused a PTSD-like response from me, which might explain my

reactions

> to my mom. It's not like I'm trying to take responsibility off of

> her, but in terms of therapy, I think the cause of some of these

> problems should be addressed. I have many PTSD-like symptoms

(though

> I don't believe enough to warrant a full diagnosis) which can't be

> explained by my mom. She was obviously all over the place when I

was

> growing up but I don't really consider my experiences with her as

> traumatic-- she broke things, knocked things over, etc, but I was

> NEVER scared that she would hurt me. I don't really know what I

was

> afraid of.

>

> So I was wondering if anyone here had any feedback in regards to

> pinpointing specific issues in therapy. It's very easy for me to

go

> on and on about my mom in therapy, which I'm sure is fine, but I'm

> NOT sure is at the root of everything. I'm also wondering if the

> term " secondary victimization " would apply here, as my mom has had

> PTSD all my life and often discussed her childhood abuse with me.

I

> know, things I should discuss in therapy, but I've come not to

trust

> any of my past beliefs about me, my family, and this situation.

>

> Thanks for listening.

[Guest guest]

> I don't think it very important that we know exactly what happened

> when we were very young. What counts is what we thought happened.

> We are not in a court of law, trying to determine guilt. We are

> trying to put ourselves back together again. Our perceptions and

> beliefs are what tore us apart, whether or not they are objectively

> correct.

>

I do understand that, quite a bit. It's what I've been telling

myself forever. That everyone who ever did anything to me did

not 'intend' to cause harm, that I am justified in my responses and

in who I am as a result, that I don't need to know what happened to

understand it's impact, etc.

Unfortunately though, I worry about the effectiveness of treating

symptoms as opposed to the underlying cause. I am beginning to

believe my reactions were not just due to a difference in personality

between myself and my brothers. I remember a time when I would have

reacted the same as they did, and then things happened, and

everything changed. I always thought I was doing pretty well, that I

did what I needed to do, and I guess I probably did what I was

capable of.

In discussing the situation with a social worker who first recognized

that I wasn't doing as great as I wanted to think (and who was right,

though I usually am in better control of myself and better able to

give a perception of 'fine'), I do agree that it's important to

isolate certain experiences that had a significant life impact, to

discuss the feelings and thoughts associated, and how that has

contributed to behaviors now. So just knowing that life was bad,

doesn't seem to be enough. And for me I don't think it is. I have

so many fleas, BPD and PTSD fleas, and I don't know how to separate

me from that, and in order to do that I think I need to separate my

experiences with my mom and those experiences. If that makes any

sense.

It would be so easy to say she was the cause of everything. She

certainly didn't help, and probably made things worse, obviously for

me, than if I had a supportive caregiver. But the things I can't

talk about, are the ones that I think are the root of it all, though

I just don't know yet.

Is it best to just layer by layer peel away until you get to the

middle, or start from the middle and work your way out?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Unfortunately though, I worry about the effectiveness of treating

> symptoms as opposed to the underlying cause. I am beginning to

> believe my reactions were not just due to a difference in

personality

> between myself and my brothers. I remember a time when I would

have

> reacted the same as they did, and then things happened, and

> everything changed. I always thought I was doing pretty well, that

I

> did what I needed to do, and I guess I probably did what I was

> capable of.

>

> In discussing the situation with a social worker who first

recognized

> that I wasn't doing as great as I wanted to think (and who was

right,

> though I usually am in better control of myself and better able to

> give a perception of 'fine'), I do agree that it's important to

> isolate certain experiences that had a significant life impact, to

> discuss the feelings and thoughts associated, and how that has

> contributed to behaviors now. So just knowing that life was bad,

> doesn't seem to be enough. And for me I don't think it is. I have

> so many fleas, BPD and PTSD fleas, and I don't know how to separate

> me from that, and in order to do that I think I need to separate my

> experiences with my mom and those experiences. If that makes any

> sense.

>

> It would be so easy to say she was the cause of everything. She

> certainly didn't help, and probably made things worse, obviously

for

> me, than if I had a supportive caregiver. But the things I can't

> talk about, are the ones that I think are the root of it all,

though

> I just don't know yet.

>

> Is it best to just layer by layer peel away until you get to the

> middle, or start from the middle and work your way out?>>>>>>>

I had a similar conversation with my therapist a few months ago. I

was trying to figure out if I really did correctly interpret what

happened. Therapist said it didn't matter. What mattered were the

feelings. However, I still maintain that if I knew I misinterpreted

something, that my feelings would change. After all, isn't that why

we explain things to each other...to avoid negative consequences of

misinterpretation?

I don't know if the things you can't talk about are the root of it

all...but it is an interesting comment....something to explore.

About peeling the layers, I could never get to the middle without

going through each layer. I am still not to the core (boo hoo!)

Be gentle & kind to yourself. Sylvia

[Guest guest]

> Unfortunately though, I worry about the effectiveness of treating

> symptoms as opposed to the underlying cause.

Scout, I think that the way we perceived things when we were little

is the underlying cause, much more than what actually happened (as

seen by an unbiased observer - who doesn't exist anyway).

> Is it best to just layer by layer peel away until you get to the

> middle, or start from the middle and work your way out?

I am starting from the middle and from the outside and working

towards the in-between layers. I often wonder if the in-between

layers are completely rotted out, because I can't get through them

at all.

- Dan