Re: bpd; a mental illness or learned behavior?

[Guest guest]

The way I look at personality disorders are that they are childhood

development delays when it comes to the emotional and mental development

of the child. There seems to be some biological factor involved also

with the personality disorders which causes a problem with determining

if it is more a developmental disorder or a biological one. More than

likely both play into the development of the personality disorders. For

instance a family could carry the biological make-up for a personality

disorder however considering the environmental surroundings in which

they grew up could determine if an individual will develop the

characteristics that will continue to develop into the extreme end

resulting in a personality disorder. The same has been found when it

comes to disorders such as schizophrenia and bi-polar and such. It goes

back to the battle between nature vs. nurture. I think taking a look at

nature vs. nurture and realizing one of the main key components of BPD

that things are not all or nothing, black or which, either/or.

So therefore one can safely assume that when it comes to the development

of a personality disorder that both nature and nurture plays a role in

its making. Like other disorders and illnesses, both physical and mental

ones, it is neither one or the other but more than likely a intermix of

both.

As I have begun and continued my journey towards healing emotionally, I

have had to come to terms that I grew up in a family of borderlines, one

generation after another. Yes that meant that I had to come to terms

knowing that I too have features of BP because I was raised with a

mother who had BP. Near the beginning when I started to realize that

mother was BP I started to panic thinking OMG I have BP too. However

over time I have come to realize especially through this list that while

I may have features of BP, fleas as this group refers to them, it

doesn't necessarily mean that I have a full-blown Borderline Personality

Disorder. It has taken time for me to begin to see this especially

considering that I grew up with mother's attitude that I was the problem

not her. Learning that I wasn't ALL of the problem was a huge step in my

recovery because I realized that no one was perfect that no one person

could be pinned with the blame. Yes individuals are responsible for the

choices they make however if their knowledge of the choices the have to

chose from are limited then what? Do we accept that they didn't go

searching for the knowledge like we are so therefore they should be

forgiven? Do we accept that they too were victims and didn't know any

better? Once again I believe that it is not about all or nothing rather

my search for an answer has lead me down a path that I have chosen to

make a life time effort towards making a difference.

The path is generational abuse, more specifically generational emotional

abuse. I used to wonder why I was so different than mother especially

considering her very strong efforts to form me into a mold that was just

like her. Then I realized that it was the " good enough mothering " that I

received from the many different others in my life time that made up for

the differences between me and mother. See mother never married so most

of my life it was only mother and I. I never knew my father and mother

never married or had a boyfriend that lived within the house. The only

other individuals that lived in the house with us was my half brother

who never knew his father either and then his children lived with us off

an on. Other family members such as grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc

were either in non-contact, deceased or just not there so mother was the

top of the family tree I guess you could say. So basically you could say

that if mother didn't raise me then who did. My environment raised me.

I was fortunate enough to become a member of the local Girls Club at the

age of seven where I attended until I was 16 years old. The Girls Club

gave me so many opportunities that I would not have received if not for

having them a part of my development. I am able to begin to see how much

of an impact that the Girls Club played in my life. Another outside

environmental factor that played a huge impact on my development was

school and especially specific teachers. Not to let out the many dear

and faithful friends that stood by me no matter what.

So over the past year while continuing my studies to complete my master

degree in Early Childhood Education, my BS is in Psychology, I have

focused a great deal of my time on the development of children when it

comes to emotional development and generational abuse. It was one day

when I thought about a job I used to do with teen parents and how I used

to struggle with the concept of trying to teach the teen parents how to

teach their infants and toddlers about autonomy when the teen parents

themselves were still struggling for a sense of autonomy. Think about

it.how does one teach another when the one that is doing the teaching

hasn't even mastered the level of emotional development? This is when I

realized that the intervention for the development of personality

disorders needed to begin earlier in life. It needed to begin when

individuals are babies and also must include their parents. For if we

are ever to see a decline in the numbers of abuse (especially emotional

abuse) then we need to ensure that the parents are prepared and ready to

take on such a huge and important job.

Most of the early intervention programs out there for infants and

toddlers are not focusing a great deal on the emotional development of

the children and if they are they are only focusing on the child rather

than both the child and parents. Now how do you focus on an infant and

toddler and not include the parents? So it is my goal and purpose in

life to develop an intervention program that will address the issues of

both the child and parents. To find a way to access the levels of

parents emotional development in order to intervene early in the life of

their child and make positive changes. However it is a cycle and it will

take decades and generations to bring about a impact on decreasing

generation abuse overall. The effects of abuse has been centuries in the

making and it will take decades to bring about changes and the

possibility of bringing abuse to an end all together would tend to lead

to an all or nothing type of thinking.

I know that this probably doesn't help to resolve the issue of anger,

frustration and so on when it comes to the years of hell that we spent

growing up in the home of a parent with a personality disorder, however

I do believe that if we want to turn that anger, frustration and so on

into something more positive and powerful that we can begin to teach,

educate and inform others about the effects of not only physical and

sexual abuse but of emotional abuse. Look we live in a society that

doesn't even recognize emotional abuse being seen a justified reason to

remove a child from a home because there is no proof. Of course there is

no proof because the proof only begins to show up when we are adults

struggling with repeating lessons over and over again. We need to

advocate for the future children of tomorrow to receive the early

intervention that they deserve so that they don't grown up and have to

deal with the same ills we have had to face.

I will get off of my rambling session now because I know this is getting

long. I just wanted to share my perception of how I have begun to turn

my anger and frustration around in order to begin moving forward and not

holding onto it. Thanks for listening.

SueAnn )

[Guest guest]

I'll weigh in with the idea that it doesn't really make any

difference. If we want vengeance, then we might want to know if they

chose to do what they did. But seeking vengeance will not solve any

problems, and will just keep us stuck in our recovery. After what

happened to me in the divorce, I would say that seeking vengeance is

the American Way and it is VERY destructive.

My mother really believes that she is doing the best she can for

everybody. If she can destroy my sense of individuality, it is for

the best because individuality is only a source of problems. If she

cuts us off at the knees for accomplishing something, it is because

we should have accomplished something else instead of wasting time

doing what we did. There is always a reason. She truly believes the

reason. Since she is always right, she certainly has no need to seek

therapy. This description does not help me label her as having a

brain disorder or a mind disorder.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/1/03 10:28:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

danc19fr@... writes:

Dan,

I sometimes wonder if it is possible for you to consider not seeing countries

in such black and white terms? America and American culture is not all evil.

France and French culture is not all good.

Yanno, it might be nice to be able to see some nuances in there once in a

while???

Warm regards

Malene

> I'll weigh in with the idea that it doesn't really make any

> difference. If we want vengeance, then we might want to know if they

> chose to do what they did. But seeking vengeance will not solve any

> problems, and will just keep us stuck in our recovery. After what

> happened to me in the divorce, I would say that seeking vengeance is

> the American Way and it is VERY destructive.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/1/03 6:31:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

wvvixen1@... writes:

Hey ,

Does it have to be so black and white? My mom molested me, it was a symptom

of her illness. Her illness being an extreme needyness that was crushingly

painful and made her behave in horrible ways.

I am not saying my mom is sick to excuse her, or to accept her abominable

behavior. I wont accept her bad behavior any more ,ever. I will protect myself.

I

wish my folks could take responsibility for their actions of betrayal to me.

My dad might do so eventually, atleast we can work on it. I have given up on

my mom, she is unable to have that kind of self insight. I think her lack is as

painful to her as it is to me, and i dont necessarily think it is her

" fault " . However, me saying I have given up on her really shows a complete lack

of

respect for the woman. I choose to call her mentally ill instead of evil because

I think she could have been helped at one point in her life but the help

wasnt there for her. She never intended to hurt me, no matter how much the

outcome

was crushingly painful for me. I guess that is the other reason why I see her

as sick instead of evil. Her intention was not to hurt me.

I guess I also see some left over goodness in my mom. It breaks my heart that

her basic goodness was crushed by bad genetic material, brain chemistry and

mental illness.

Things just arent that black and white....

Warm regards

Malene

> . If the cruelness caused by BPD is a mental illness we should have

> sympathy for, what about child molesters. Are they mentally ill and should we

have

> sympathy for them also. Sorry but I don't.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/03 10:39:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

dlherman_98@... writes:

Hey Doug,

I am so sorry for your pain and your shame. I used to share the shame over

what my mom did to me, and how i handled it. It has been a relief to find a good

therapist who doesnt judge me to share those things with, and to see how i

can still be respected and liked in spite of those things.

I hope you find something or someone to help you do the same thing.

Warm regards

Malene

> The realization that my n has an illness simply

> doesn't begin to compensate for the destruction of my

> self esteem...and my life. And there is so much else

> that I can't mention because I am too ashamed. I hate

> her for it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

At a very young age, 14 I believe, I told my fada that I wanted to

be a psychiatrist so that I could analyze my nada. I knew nothing of

BPD or anything else. All I knew was the lady was not " right in the

head " .

I believe in my heart that she did not think she was doing anything

wrong. I believe that her strange perceptions were very real to

her. To me, that says mental illness.

Do I hate her? Yes..for what she took from me. But the past

cannot be changed. I have got to concentrate on the present and my

family. To do anything else is to continue to let nada rob me of my

life.

Elyse

>

> Hello. I guess I should have phrased the question: do you think bpd

> is a brain disorder or a mind disorder. I don't believe that bp's

are

> unaware of their behavior and that denial is part of

this " illness " ,

> I think they are unwilling to admit their abuse, but deep down they

> know just like the rest of us do, when we are being abusive.

> Otherwise, they are sociopaths and without conscience and I don't

> believe that. I think they know right from wrong and are aware of

the

> pain they inflict, they just can't face themselves and maybe they

> can't " acknowledge " their abuse but that is different from

> being " aware " of it. Maybe I just don't want to believe that an

> illness exists that victimizes the person with the disorder AND

their

> family AND part of the disease is that they are unaware of their

> behavior. I don't buy it. I think they have an arressted

development

> and are stuck but could learn to treat themselves and others better

> IF they put their ego and fear aside and reached out. I don't

believe

> this about people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. They

> almost always need medication to get better becuase they have a

> disorder in the brain. I don't feel that is the case with bp's. I

> think it is a disorder of the mind and soul, perhaps, but not a

> chemical brain disorder. I guess ultimately it doesn't change

> anything to know what it really is, but I feel there is more hope

for

> all of us if it isn't something that is inflicted upon them and so

> severly limits them. Maybe I just can't see my mother as a victim

> right now because I am so angry at the damage she inflicted

> (seemingly of her own will) on so many and the damn shame of it

all.

> I know there is no right or wrong answer here, maybe I just don't

> want to let her off the hook so easily. Forgive me if I have

offended

> anyone, I'm not trying to be " right " I'm just not able to buy into

> the victim label. -

[Guest guest]

Ellie,

My mother is 80 years old. She still has total control of my father,

who is 84 and in good health. My father does manage to spend some

time away from her, and is aware he is being manipulated. He just

goes along with her because there is no other possible action. My

sister, the all-good kid, lives in the same town. When she visits

she does exactly what she is told to do. She is consciously aware of

the manipulation and the BPD. My brother and I live a long way from

her and see her very rarely.

My mother has fewer friends than before. One reason for this is that

living in a retirement home, they see more of her and figure her out

more quickly than before.

I don't think she is angrier with frustration that she cannot wield

the power. I think she is more mellow, because when there is no

convenient victim her attack impulse is subdued.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Fascinating stuff Dan. You would hope she would mellow by 80. At least you are

away from her clutches, though as Edith says, they can live in your head for

much longer.

Ellie

Dan wrote:

Ellie,

My mother is 80 years old. She still has total control of my father,

who is 84 and in good health. My father does manage to spend some

time away from her, and is aware he is being manipulated. He just

goes along with her because there is no other possible action. My

sister, the all-good kid, lives in the same town. When she visits

she does exactly what she is told to do. She is consciously aware of

the manipulation and the BPD. My brother and I live a long way from

her and see her very rarely.

My mother has fewer friends than before. One reason for this is that

living in a retirement home, they see more of her and figure her out

more quickly than before.

I don't think she is angrier with frustration that she cannot wield

the power. I think she is more mellow, because when there is no

convenient victim her attack impulse is subdued.

- Dan