Re: Question on Fungal fragments

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken,

IMHO Rare, but like all fungal issues, most anything can happen on any given day. Conditions would have to be very good, ie land in a wet/damp area, good substrate and of course the fragment would have to be viable and capable of cell division. Maybe the mycologists could provide the fungal types that have the best chance?

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of kengibsSent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: Question on Fungal fragments

Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================

[Guest guest]

I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei Tang QLabkengibs wrote: Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken

Gibala========================= Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Fungal elements, like hyphal "projections" (really hyphal fragments, or just plain, hyphae), die very quickly and are extremely fragile when disturbed and without water. All you have to do to kill the hyphae is dry something completely and the hyphae die, period. The spores regenerate, not the hyphae.Hyphae within substrates is NOT a problem, unless they are from basidiomycetes and are wood rotting fungi or dry rotting fungi. Either way,they are there because of excess moisture. Remove the moisture and they die quickly, never to live again.This is an important point I think that is being missed when thinking about cleaning porous surfaces. Note that I have not addressed the structuralor the aesthetic issue(s), only the biology. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================

[Guest guest]

Brad,

I can't provide the fungal types, but I can suggest an environment:

Crawlspaces. Damp, good substrate and, especially, LONG TERM. I've

yet to see anything on long term relatively stable conditions

(decades in a crawlspace) and how that may be different from short

term peak conditions (days from a water leak).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

--------- Question on Fungal fragments

Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after

being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and

growing again at a new location????

I would appreciate any assistance with this question.

Ken Gibala

=========================

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

making such material available in our efforts to advance

understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,

democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe

this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as

provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance

with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is

distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior

interest in receiving the included information for research and

educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

Wei and Group,

It didn't know hyphal fragments could germinate. We keep learning

more all the time. It started off with limiting mold to only spores,

viable ones at that. Then the recognition of non-viable spores, then

the various components of the fungal spores. That was followed by the

fungal mass. Then about a year ago discussion about fungal fragments

in the environment as a source of exposure to the various components

contained in the spores.

Now another variable: Some fungal hyphal fragments, at least under

some " X " conditions, can germinate.

What are the opinions of others about it occuring in the field?

Should we consider this to be significant enough to include in our

assessments? My first thought is about crawlspaces and similar

environments with long term conditions (more than a month, some

lasting decades).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-------------- Original message ---------------

I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new

hyphae observed under microscope in the lab.

Wei Tang

QLab

kengibs wrote:

Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after

being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and

growing again at a new location????

I would appreciate any assistance with this question.

Ken Gibala

=========================

Wei Tang, Ph.D.

Lab Director

QLab

5 Drive

Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

www.QLabUSA.com

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

making such material available in our efforts to advance

understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,

democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe

this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as

provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance

with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is

distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior

interest in receiving the included information for research and

educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated? If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala ===================== Re: Question on Fungal fragmentsI have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala========================= Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Carl, Fungi produce spores for a reason. Fungal hyphal fragment is not the best way to spread their "seeds". Like said, they dry up and eventually die if long enough. How much does it happen in the field after remediation? I don't know. It depends on the conditions. (1) Airborne hyphal fragments Comparing to the spores coming from outdoors, I don't think airborne hyphal fragments contribute to a big part of indoor mold growth unless some contractors screwed up and the building has existing (and un-fixed) water problem. (2) Residual hyphal fragments Control water is probably the key. Even if you remove 99.9999% of spores and/or hyphae, one viable cell (spore or hyphae) can start to grow if it's wet. That's why killing doesn't make much sense because killing rate is never 100%. 99.9999% would be considered to be a good killing rate.

Wei Tang QLab"Carl E. Grimes" wrote: Wei and Group,It didn't know hyphal fragments could germinate. We keep learning more all the time. It started off with limiting mold to only spores, viable ones at that. Then the recognition of non-viable spores, then the various components of the fungal spores. That was followed by the fungal mass. Then about a year ago discussion about fungal fragments in the environment as a source of

exposure to the various components contained in the spores.Now another variable: Some fungal hyphal fragments, at least under some "X" conditions, can germinate.What are the opinions of others about it occuring in the field? Should we consider this to be significant enough to include in our assessments? My first thought is about crawlspaces and similar environments with long term conditions (more than a month, some lasting decades). Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-------------- Original message ---------------I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again

at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.comFAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and

educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei Tang QLab"kengib ." wrote: Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a

soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated? If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala ===================== Re: Question on Fungal fragments I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new

hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei Tang QLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote: Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala========================= Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Carl,

In my experience, the damp crawl space (not major wet) is a zoo of microbs. Numerous types, bacteria, fungi, actiniomycetes, yeast. Some grow and go depending on the season and RH and dominance order of the day. Over the long term the wood gives into the basidiomycetes and the corners start to rot. The ants and spiders like the cool damp area and the A/P gets grown over by Clado. and its cousins. Its just one big party. Thats why damp buildings cause health issues and the scientists can't pin point what the actual agent is. Its the soup effect, IMO.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Carl E. GrimesSent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:09 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Question on Fungal fragments

Brad,I can't provide the fungal types, but I can suggest an environment: Crawlspaces. Damp, good substrate and, especially, LONG TERM. I've yet to see anything on long term relatively stable conditions (decades in a crawlspace) and how that may be different from short term peak conditions (days from a water leak).Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-------------- Original message ---------------Hello Ken,IMHO Rare, but like all fungal issues, most anything can happen on any given day. Conditions would have to be very good, ie land in a wet/damp area, good substrate and of course the fragment would have to be viable and capable of cell division. Maybe the mycologists could provide the fungal types that have the best chance? Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of kengibsSent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: Question on Fungal fragmentsCan fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Wei:

I appreciate your observation and comment. Since I believe that almost anything is possible in a lab (e.g., cloning sheep), what are your thoughts regarding this issue in the real world. Possible? Probable? Only under ideal circumstances?

I be curious.

I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab.

Wei Tang

QLab

kengibs wrote:

Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after

being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and

growing again at a new location????

I would appreciate any assistance with this question.

Ken Gibala

=========================

Wei Tang, Ph.D.

Lab Director

QLab

5 Drive

Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

www.QLabUSA.com <http://www.qlabusa.com/>

[Guest guest]

Wei:

I appreciate your observation and comment. Since I believe that almost anything is possible in a lab (e.g., cloning sheep), what are your thoughts regarding this issue in the real world. Possible? Probable? Only under ideal circumstances?

I be curious.

I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab.

Wei Tang

QLab

kengibs wrote:

Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after

being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and

growing again at a new location????

I would appreciate any assistance with this question.

Ken Gibala

=========================

Wei Tang, Ph.D.

Lab Director

QLab

5 Drive

Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

www.QLabUSA.com <http://www.qlabusa.com/>

[Guest guest]

I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below) particles. Can you expand your thought here?The comment confuses me. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei TangQLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated?  If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala =====================  Re: Question on Fungal fragmentsI have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below) particles. Can you expand your thought here?The comment confuses me. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei TangQLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated?  If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala =====================  Re: Question on Fungal fragmentsI have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Let's put this thread to bed. Hyphae are NOT a concern for continued growth if spread. They die and are mostly not viable. They also come out of the air quickly. We are straining at a gnat here.Secondly, killing is never the answer. Spores are everywhere present. WATER IS THE PROBLEM, MOLD IS THE SYMPTOM. Given that you can have Aspergillus numbersof 12 to 40 million in a two square inch space on a surface, killing them is not going to be effective. Assume that you have a 99.99% kill rate of the 40 million. You leave 4,000 viable spores in 2 square inches (assumes all are viable). More thanenough to recolonize the world.Remove, not kill. Killing is a "feel good" solution. When the water returns, so will the microbial soup that is life. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.Carl, Fungi produce spores for a reason. Fungal hyphal fragment is not the best way to spread their "seeds". Like said, they dry up and eventually die if long enough. How much does it happen in the field after remediation? I don't know. It depends on the conditions. (1) Airborne hyphal fragmentsComparing to the spores coming from outdoors, I don't think airborne hyphal fragments contribute to a big part of indoor mold growth unless some contractors screwed up and the building has existing (and un-fixed) water problem. (2) Residual hyphal fragmentsControl water is probably the key. Even if you remove 99.9999% of spores and/or hyphae, one viable cell (spore or hyphae) can start to grow if it's wet. That's why killing doesn't make much sense because killing rate is never 100%. 99.9999% would be considered to be a good killing rate. Wei TangQLab"Carl E. Grimes" <grimeshabitats> wrote:Wei and Group,It didn't know hyphal fragments could germinate. We keep learning more all the time. It started off with limiting mold to only spores, viable ones at that. Then the recognition of non-viable spores, then the various components of the fungal spores. That was followed by the fungal mass. Then about a year ago discussion about fungal fragments in the environment as a source of exposure to the various components contained in the spores.Now another variable: Some fungal hyphal fragments, at least under some "X" conditions, can germinate.What are the opinions of others about it occuring in the field? Should we consider this to be significant enough to include in our assessments? My first thought is about crawlspaces and similar environments with long term conditions (more than a month, some lasting decades). Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-------------- Original message ---------------I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.comFAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Brad

I for one fully support your belief that it is the combination (soup effect) that really matters.

Jim H. white SSC

RE: Question on Fungal fragments

Hello Carl,

In my experience, the damp crawl space (not major wet) is a zoo of microbs. Numerous types, bacteria, fungi, actiniomycetes, yeast. Some grow and go depending on the season and RH and dominance order of the day. Over the long term the wood gives into the basidiomycetes and the corners start to rot. The ants and spiders like the cool damp area and the A/P gets grown over by Clado. and its cousins. Its just one big party. Thats why damp buildings cause health issues and the scientists can't pin point what the actual agent is. Its the soup effect, IMO.

Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Carl E. GrimesSent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:09 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Question on Fungal fragments

Brad,I can't provide the fungal types, but I can suggest an environment: Crawlspaces. Damp, good substrate and, especially, LONG TERM. I've yet to see anything on long term relatively stable conditions (decades in a crawlspace) and how that may be different from short term peak conditions (days from a water leak).Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-------------- Original message ---------------Hello Ken,IMHO Rare, but like all fungal issues, most anything can happen on any given day. Conditions would have to be very good, ie land in a wet/damp area, good substrate and of course the fragment would have to be viable and capable of cell division. Maybe the mycologists could provide the fungal types that have the best chance? Bradley HarrSr. Environmental Scientist-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of kengibsSent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:14 PMTo: iequality Subject: Question on Fungal fragmentsCan fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

, I am confused. You are not concerned of fungal biomass that has been blasted into tiny pieces (< 2 microns) and become aerosolized and people can breathe into their lung? Why do we even remove indoor mold growth in the first place? Wei Tang QLab Shane wrote: I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below)

particles. Can you expand your thought here? The comment confuses me. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei Tang QLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote: Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated? If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala ===================== Re: Question on

Fungal fragments I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei Tang QLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote: Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala========================= Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

, I am confused. You are not concerned of fungal biomass that has been blasted into tiny pieces (< 2 microns) and become aerosolized and people can breathe into their lung? Why do we even remove indoor mold growth in the first place? Wei Tang QLab Shane wrote: I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below)

particles. Can you expand your thought here? The comment confuses me. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D. I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei Tang QLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote: Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated? If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala ===================== Re: Question on

Fungal fragments I have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei Tang QLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote: Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala========================= Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com Wei Tang, Ph.D. Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

,

I would like to put this to bed also, mainly because you and Wei are

the only ones to provide a direct answer to my question of whether or

not germination from hyphae is possible and under what conditions:

Not for incident-based events.

My remaining concern is those long-term relatively stable conditions

of dampness and nutrients (crawlspaces) that may be conducive to

germination of hyphae and other factors in the " soup. " I've always

wondered about amoeba and bacterial symbiosis, for example. If so -

and it sounds like nobody knows - then crawlspaces are a different

" animal " than an incident based issue.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-------------- Original message ---------------

Let's put this thread to bed. Hyphae are NOT a concern for continued

growth if spread. They die and are mostly not viable. They also come

out of the air quickly. We are straining at a gnat here.Secondly,

killing is never the answer. Spores are everywhere present. WATER IS

THE PROBLEM, MOLD IS THE SYMPTOM. Given that you can have Aspergillus

numbers

of 12 to 40 million in a two square inch space on a surface, killing

them is not going to be effective. Assume that you have a 99.99% kill

rate of the 40 million. You leave 4,000 viable spores in 2 square

inches (assumes all are viable). More than

enough to recolonize the world.

Remove, not kill. Killing is a " feel good " solution. When the water

returns, so will the microbial soup that is life.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

making such material available in our efforts to advance

understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,

democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe

this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as

provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance

with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is

distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior

interest in receiving the included information for research and

educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

,

I would like to put this to bed also, mainly because you and Wei are

the only ones to provide a direct answer to my question of whether or

not germination from hyphae is possible and under what conditions:

Not for incident-based events.

My remaining concern is those long-term relatively stable conditions

of dampness and nutrients (crawlspaces) that may be conducive to

germination of hyphae and other factors in the " soup. " I've always

wondered about amoeba and bacterial symbiosis, for example. If so -

and it sounds like nobody knows - then crawlspaces are a different

" animal " than an incident based issue.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-------------- Original message ---------------

Let's put this thread to bed. Hyphae are NOT a concern for continued

growth if spread. They die and are mostly not viable. They also come

out of the air quickly. We are straining at a gnat here.Secondly,

killing is never the answer. Spores are everywhere present. WATER IS

THE PROBLEM, MOLD IS THE SYMPTOM. Given that you can have Aspergillus

numbers

of 12 to 40 million in a two square inch space on a surface, killing

them is not going to be effective. Assume that you have a 99.99% kill

rate of the 40 million. You leave 4,000 viable spores in 2 square

inches (assumes all are viable). More than

enough to recolonize the world.

Remove, not kill. Killing is a " feel good " solution. When the water

returns, so will the microbial soup that is life.

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[Guest guest]

Carl,Crawlspaces are different beasts, you are right. Normally, I would not consider the proliferation of hyphal fragments to be a problem.Basements are wetter, full of soil and "soup" and not much turbulence and/or periodic dry/wet spells.You are absolutely correct in thinking that the bacteria, etc. are an issue to consider. When you connect with the soil the game changes completely. There are actinomycetes, bacteria, insects, fungi, to name a few of thethings that are living and loving there. In fact, nobody (nearly) ever considers these other things. Most people focus on fungi and mold, have a foggy idea of what they are and ignore the forest for the few trees they see. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.,I would like to put this to bed also, mainly because you and Wei are the only ones to provide a direct answer to my question of whether or not germination from hyphae is possible and under what conditions: Not for incident-based events.My remaining concern is those long-term relatively stable conditions of dampness and nutrients (crawlspaces) that may be conducive to germination of hyphae and other factors in the "soup." I've always wondered about amoeba and bacterial symbiosis, for example. If so - and it sounds like nobody knows - then crawlspaces are a different "animal" than an incident based issue. Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-------------- Original message ---------------Let's put this thread to bed. Hyphae are NOT a concern for continued growth if spread. They die and are mostly not viable. They also come out of the air quickly. We are straining at a gnat here.Secondly, killing is never the answer. Spores are everywhere present. WATER IS THE PROBLEM, MOLD IS THE SYMPTOM. Given that you can have Aspergillus numbersof 12 to 40 million in a two square inch space on a surface, killing them is not going to be effective. Assume that you have a 99.99% kill rate of the 40 million. You leave 4,000 viable spores in 2 square inches (assumes all are viable). More thanenough to recolonize the world.Remove, not kill. Killing is a "feel good" solution. When the water returns, so will the microbial soup that is life.FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Wei,I was merely saying that I don't understand your comment. Perhaps your note was  too brief. I did NOTsay I wasn't concerned. I merely stated that I was confused with your statement. In other words, what did you mean by thecomment that you have small particles you can't capture. Did you mean that we can't count them, they have a measurable health effect,they contribute to asthma, allergy, etc? ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D., I am confused. You are not concerned of fungal biomass that has been blasted into tiny pieces (< 2 microns) and become aerosolized and people can breathe into their lung? Why do we even remove indoor mold growth in the first place? Wei TangQLab Shane <jshaneprolabinc> wrote:I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below) particles. Can you expand your thought here?The comment confuses me.••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei TangQLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated?  If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala =====================  Re: Question on Fungal fragmentsI have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

Wei,I was merely saying that I don't understand your comment. Perhaps your note was  too brief. I did NOTsay I wasn't concerned. I merely stated that I was confused with your statement. In other words, what did you mean by thecomment that you have small particles you can't capture. Did you mean that we can't count them, they have a measurable health effect,they contribute to asthma, allergy, etc? ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D., I am confused. You are not concerned of fungal biomass that has been blasted into tiny pieces (< 2 microns) and become aerosolized and people can breathe into their lung? Why do we even remove indoor mold growth in the first place? Wei TangQLab Shane <jshaneprolabinc> wrote:I am confused. Why are you worried about the particles you can't capture on a spore trap? You state your concern about sub micron (or 2 micron and below) particles. Can you expand your thought here?The comment confuses me.••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.I would be concerned with sub-microns (or 2 microns and below) biomass particles generated from blasting. You can't capture them on the spore traps during PRV. Wei TangQLab"kengib ." <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Dr. Tang, Thank you for your assistance. Would you be concerned with such fragments arising from a soda or dry ice blasting germinating in other parts of a facility being rehabilitated?  If so under what conditions might you be concerned? Ken Gibala =====================  Re: Question on Fungal fragmentsI have seen single fungal hyphal fragments germinated and grew new hyphae observed under microscope in the lab. Wei TangQLabkengibs <jkg4902hotmail> wrote:Can fungal fragments like a hyphal projection remain viable after being disturbed by an abrasive process thus possibly sprouting and growing again at a new location????I would appreciate any assistance with this question.Ken Gibala=========================  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com  Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab DirectorQLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

,There has been a lot of work done recently on the health effects of fungal fragments.here is a good example:http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/1/114

Detection of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum Macrocyclic Trichothecene Mycotoxins on Particulates Smaller than Conidia

T. L. Brasel, D. R. , S. C. , and D. C. Straus

Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Lubbock, Texas

Received 22 March 2004/

Accepted 16 August 2004

Highly respirable particles (diameter, <1 µm) constitute the majority of particulate matter found in indoor air. It is hypothesized that these particles serve as carriers for toxic compounds, specifically the compounds produced by molds in water-damaged

buildings. The presence of airborne Stachybotrys chartarum trichothecene mycotoxins on particles smaller than conidia (e.g., fungal fragments) was therefore investigated. Cellulose ceiling tiles with confluent

Stachybotrys growth were placed in gas-drying containers through which filtered air was passed. Exiting particulates were collected by using a series of polycarbonate membrane filters with decreasing

pore sizes. Scanning electron microscopy was employed to determine the presence of conidia on the filters. A competitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) specific for macrocyclic trichothecenes

was used to analyze filter extracts. Cross-reactivity to various mycotoxins was examined to confirm the specificity. Statistically significant (P < 0.05) ELISA binding was observed primarily

for macrocyclic trichothecenes at concentrations of 50 and 5 ng/ml and 500 pg/ml (58.4 to 83.5% inhibition). Of the remaining toxins tested, only verrucarol and diacetylverrucarol (nonmacrocyclic

trichothecenes) demonstrated significant binding (18.2 and 51.7% inhibition, respectively) and then only at high concentrations. The results showed that extracts from conidium-free filters

demonstrated statistically significant (P < 0.05) antibody binding that increased with sampling time (38.4 to 71.9% inhibition, representing a range of 0.5 to 4.0 ng/ml). High-performance

liquid chromatography analysis suggested the presence of satratoxin H in conidium-free filter extracts. These data show that S. chartarum trichothecene mycotoxins can become airborne in association

with intact conidia or smaller particles. These findings may have important implications for indoor air quality assessment.

Wei,I was merely saying that I don't understand your comment. Perhaps your note was too brief. I did NOTsay I wasn't concerned. I merely stated that I was confused with your statement. In other words, what did you mean by the

comment that you have small particles you can't capture. Did you mean that we can't count them, they have a measurable health effect,they contribute to asthma, allergy, etc?

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• D. Shane, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

1.         You’ll notice that in this

article they don’t discuss the actual concentrations in air – or per

spore.  They don’t discuss how often, when  produced, etc.

            There are 3 articles that do

and there ain’t much in air or per spore.  Those that are present

(sometimes), are rare (say 1 of 32 strains)

            There is one better one that shows

isolation of mycotoxin in one species – very nice work actually.

            [: 

Localization of Satratoxin-G in Stachybotrys

chartarum Spores and Spore-Impacted Mouse Lung Using

Immunocytochemistry.  Tox Path 2004]

           

2.         Where are the articles on HEALTH

Effects “of fungal fragments”?  

            If there “There has been

a lot of work done recently”?

3.         Don’t be fooled by sl(e)ight

of hand.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

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From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of LiveSimply

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 6:10

PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Question

on Fungal fragments

,

There has been a lot of work done recently on the health effects of fungal

fragments.

here is a good example:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/1/114

Detection

of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum

Macrocyclic Trichothecene Mycotoxins on Particulates Smaller than Conidia

T. L. Brasel, D. R. , S. C. , and D. C.

Straus

Department

of Microbiology and Immunology, Texas Tech University

Health Sciences

Center, Lubbock, Texas

Received

22 March 2004/ Accepted 16 August 2004

Highly

respirable particles (diameter, <1 µm) constitute the majority of

particulate matter found in indoor air. It is hypothesized that

these particles serve as carriers for toxic compounds, specifically

the compounds produced by molds in water-damaged buildings. The presence of

airborne Stachybotrys chartarum

trichothecene mycotoxins on particles smaller than conidia (e.g.,

fungal fragments) was therefore investigated. Cellulose ceiling

tiles with confluent Stachybotrys

growth were placed in gas-drying containers through which filtered

air was passed. Exiting particulates were collected by using a

series of polycarbonate membrane filters with decreasing pore sizes. Scanning

electron microscopy was employed to determine the presence of

conidia on the filters. A competitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent

assay (ELISA) specific for macrocyclic trichothecenes was used to analyze

filter extracts. Cross-reactivity to various mycotoxins was examined

to confirm the specificity. Statistically significant (P < 0.05) ELISA binding was observed

primarily for macrocyclic trichothecenes at concentrations of 50 and 5 ng/ml

and 500 pg/ml (58.4 to 83.5% inhibition). Of the remaining toxins

tested, only verrucarol and diacetylverrucarol (nonmacrocyclic trichothecenes)

demonstrated significant binding (18.2 and 51.7% inhibition,

respectively) and then only at high concentrations. The results

showed that extracts from conidium-free filters demonstrated statistically

significant (P < 0.05)

antibody binding that increased with sampling time (38.4 to 71.9%

inhibition, representing a range of 0.5 to 4.0 ng/ml).

High-performance liquid chromatography analysis suggested the presence of

satratoxin H in conidium-free filter extracts. These data show that S. chartarum trichothecene

mycotoxins can become airborne in association with intact conidia or smaller

particles. These findings may have important implications for indoor

air quality assessment.

On 8/17/07,

Shane <jshaneprolabinc>

wrote:

Wei,

I was merely saying that I don't understand your

comment. Perhaps your note was too brief. I did NOT

say I wasn't concerned. I merely stated that I was

confused with your statement. In other words, what did you mean by the

comment that you have small particles you can't

capture. Did you mean that we can't count them, they have a measurable health

effect,

they contribute to asthma, allergy, etc?

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

D. Shane, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

:

For the most part, I concur with your statements and perspective. However, based on this latest post, you seem to be part of the group that advocates total removal and consider biomass killing and leaving in-place a “feel good” solution. Here is where I disagree. Most mold mitigation efforts cannot remove all biomass; at least not without demolishing the building or portions thereof. This said, how do you propose mitigating the biomass left behind? Left alive!?! Why not kill and leave in-place? What if the biomass is in a space that does not come into contact with receptors? Is it practical to remove biomass that will most likely not be an exposure problem?

Just curious.

PS These are loaded questions!

Let's put this thread to bed. Hyphae are NOT a concern for continued growth if spread. They die and are mostly not viable. They also come out of the air quickly. We are straining at a gnat here.

Secondly, killing is never the answer. Spores are everywhere present. WATER IS THE PROBLEM, MOLD IS THE SYMPTOM. Given that you can have Aspergillus numbers

of 12 to 40 million in a two square inch space on a surface, killing them is not going to be effective. Assume that you have a 99.99% kill rate of the 40 million. You leave 4,000 viable spores in 2 square inches (assumes all are viable). More than

enough to recolonize the world.

Remove, not kill. Killing is a " feel good " solution. When the water returns, so will the microbial soup that is life.

•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

D. Shane, Ph.D.

Carl,

 

Fungi produce spores for a reason. Fungal hyphal fragment is not the best way to spread their " seeds " . Like said, they dry up and eventually die if long enough. How much does it happen in the field after remediation? I don't know. It depends on the conditions.

 

(1) Airborne hyphal fragments

Comparing to the spores coming from outdoors, I don't think airborne hyphal fragments contribute to a big part of indoor mold growth unless some contractors screwed up and the building has existing (and un-fixed) water problem.

 

(2) Residual hyphal fragments

Control water is probably the key. Even if you remove 99.9999% of spores and/or hyphae, one viable cell (spore or hyphae) can start to grow if it's wet. That's why killing doesn't make much sense because killing rate is never 100%. 99.9999% would be considered to be a good killing rate.

 

Wei Tang

QLab

" Carl E. Grimes " wrote:

Wei and Group,

It didn't know hyphal fragments could germinate. We keep learning

more all the time. It started off with limiting mold to only spores,

viable ones at that. Then the recognition of non-viable spores, then

the various components of the fungal spores. That was followed by the

fungal mass. Then about a year ago discussion about fungal fragments

in the environment as a source of exposure to the various components

contained in the spores.

Now another variable: Some fungal hyphal fragments, at least under

some " X " conditions, can germinate.

What are the opinions of others about it occuring in the field?

Should we consider this to be significant enough to include in our

assessments? My first thought is about crawlspaces and similar

environments with long term conditions (more than a month, some

lasting decades).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-------------- Original message ---------------