Re: Mold Free

[Guest guest]

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

day.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Amy,

I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold sensitive.... perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work too high.

Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work should be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive people with their special requirements. Our firm does the assessment, remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of supply and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a good job.

We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. We are very careful to investigate and find solutions for problems with HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such as Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

Of course having a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books on mold does help with the group of clients!

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Dear :

I think it's great that you are venturing into the area of helping those

who are chemcially sensitive.

The one thing that caught my eye was the use of tilex/lysol referenced in

your email.

Those 2 products are severely contraindicated for those who are chemcially

sensitive and the VOC's emiited by those will be " reactivated " with

heat/water.

WE have a addition built years ago in our house that is a pool room with

it's own HVAV etc. Nothing that would be incorporated into the main

house. One day I " discovered " mold growing by a window, most ikely from

moisture condesation and I was able in one shot to remove everything with

no evidence of it's return. I literally took a box of table salt and

saturated the entire area with it. After about 5 or so days, it

solidified into a very hard formation that was able to be removed in one

piece by pulling it off. Upon inspoecting you could see all the " growth "

in the salt. I keep checking and after 3 years there has never been

anything else that could be construed as mold returning.

I am not saying that htis is a cure all for everything, but, for all

intensive purposes for a localized area it may be something to try.

Angel De Fazio

President

National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation

POB 29194

Las Vegas, NV 89126

www.ntef-usa.org

> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:18:10 -0800 (PST)

>

> Reply-To: iequality

> To: iequality

> Subject: Re: " Mold Free "

>

> Thanks Amy,

>

> I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold sensitive....

perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't want to deal with them due

to liability issues or they price work too high.

>

> Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work should be done

by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, Remediation, HVAC &

Reconstruction. I have found that careful work with one reponsible party (and

good prices because many such people have limited funds) is the key to servicing

this group of sensitive people with their special requirements. Our firm does

the assessment, remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

supply and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can be

very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a good job.

>

> We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. We are very

careful to investigate and find solutions for problems with HVAC systems and

ducting. And we only use household cleaners such as Tilex and Lysol that do not

leave any residues. We explain that sometimes the work and cleaning are an

iterative process and we always follow up and return phone calls with advice and

provide an unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

>

> Of course having a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books on mold

does help with the group of clients!

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

> Re: " Mold Free "

>

> , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

> too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

> from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

> surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

> very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

> day.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

" Disease is the retribution of outraged nature. "

Hosea Ballou

" Some remedies are worse than the disease. "

Pubilius Syrus

" Toliet water was MEANT to be FLUSHED, not WORN! "

Angel

" If having endured much, we at last asserted our 'right to know' and if,

knowing, we have concluded that we are being asked to take senseless and

frightening risks, then we should no longer accept the counsel of those

who tell us that we must fill our world with poisonous chemicals, we

should look around and see what other course is open to us. "

Carson

" My toxicasa (world) is your toxicasa (world). "

Judith Goode

" For cheese does not prove equally injurious to all men, for there are

some who can take it to satiety, without being hurt by it in the least,

but, on the contrary, it is wonderful what strength it imparts to those it

agrees with; but there are some who do not bear it well, their

constitutions are different, they differ in this respect, that what in

their body is incompatible with cheese, is roused and put it in commotion

by such a thing; and those in whose bodies such a humor happens to prevail

in greater quantity and intensity, are likely to suffer the more from it.

But if the thing had been pernicious to the whole nature of man, it would

have hurt all. "

Hippocrates

[Guest guest]

I think that at its core, one way to look at the rising cost of mold illness is as a property rights issue. Its also a corruption issue.Buyers buy houses with an implicit promise that they will be safe, but often it turns out that they aren't and in the current economic environment, the laws that should protect them aren't there. Renters rent a space with what I would hope is an implicit contract to quiet enjoyment of an apartment or home but then it turns out that no law protects them from mold. So what is really happening again is a property rights issue. They have paid for something which they are surprised not to get and then they are again surprised that the implicit contract does not protect them.

So, when I hear the word " Mold Free " what I think about is the concept of making these contracts explicit. If an apartment is agreed not to be mold free, why shouldn't it be cheaper? It should, because it is being rented with the understanding that its mold situation is undefined. The same thing with homes that are not defined as Mold Free. They should be cheaper, because they might be unhealthy.Just playing the devils advocate here.. So take what i say now with a grain of salt..just a warning and heads up...

....cut here....Hopefully people will see what I am getting at. It seems as if we are headed towards a global free market which means no rules on things like the environment whatsoever, kind of like China or Russia or the Third World in many places.. So what that means is that smart people will need to set up alternative structures to ensure their health if governments are subservient to multinational corporations, the people will have to outbid the corporations in some way. Clearly, there are health issues, but people in the poorer countries or cities or neighborhoods often have 'made the choice' to live there so they are making the choice to live in unsafe housing and drink unhealthy water. They are doing that in order to save money.

Of course, they could also make the choice to live in the safe, clean mold free enclaves, perhaps by selling their body parts, but that is the magic of the marketplace. Supply and demand. Even air and water are commodities, and high quality air and water are worth money just as low quality air and water are worth less money.

People who fall behind in their payments should not be given access to scarce commodities perhaps. Clean air, clean water and Mold Free housing are not a right, they are a priviledge. ....cut here....

Thats where we are going, so be aware of it.. Is that what we want? Because if they get away with that - which is basically like a trip back in time for progress on public health - back to the 20s or even earlier.. things will just get worse and worse..

[Guest guest]

,

Kudos to you and your expertise. Your self-serving posting still admits to "grading your own work." I am sure you do a great job for your clients and their fungal problems; however, how often do you "fail" one of your projects??????? Sure, there is a monetary burden placed on the client when he has to hire a 3rd party for an INDEPENDENT opinion. Don't use the analagy of having another doctor verify the original's work (like is often done). You better serve your client when you offer a third party verification. What do you have to hide?

Ken Duvall

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of gary rosenSent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:18 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: "Mold Free"

Thanks Amy,

I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold sensitive.... perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work too high.

Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work should be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive people with their special requirements. Our firm does the assessment, remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of supply and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a good job.

We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. We are very careful to investigate and find solutions for problems with HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such as Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

Of course having a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books on mold does help with the group of clients!

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

[Guest guest]

,

Kudos to you and your expertise. Your self-serving posting still admits to "grading your own work." I am sure you do a great job for your clients and their fungal problems; however, how often do you "fail" one of your projects??????? Sure, there is a monetary burden placed on the client when he has to hire a 3rd party for an INDEPENDENT opinion. Don't use the analagy of having another doctor verify the original's work (like is often done). You better serve your client when you offer a third party verification. What do you have to hide?

Ken Duvall

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of gary rosenSent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:18 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: "Mold Free"

Thanks Amy,

I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold sensitive.... perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work too high.

Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work should be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive people with their special requirements. Our firm does the assessment, remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of supply and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a good job.

We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. We are very careful to investigate and find solutions for problems with HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such as Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

Of course having a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books on mold does help with the group of clients!

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/25/2007 4:23:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, iequality writes:

Most die from treatment rather than cancer.

Barb, this is an accurate epidemiology stat from somewhere?

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

When a client or the insurance company is willing to pay for such 3rd party services great. But 90-95% of the time they do not. The client and/or insurance company expects the remediation contractor to do the job properly.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing a house based on air samples? Is it total numbers (quantitative) or is it a combination of total plus types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a job?

When you write a protocol for remediating a moldy wall and then the house fails because there is significant but lesser mold problem in the AC plenum. How do you handle this? Who pays for you to come out again?

When you fail a job how successful are you at getting the remediator to pay the cost for you to come back again and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we have to go back and fix someting and don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the reason I ask the questions above is that I find that consultants (often but of course not always) have very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed the IESO testing standard. I stood up for it. Overall it is for the most part simply a listing of the manufacturer's recommendations for the use of their sampling products. However they do have a nonsensical 10X number that they throw at you. Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x the control area you cannot conclude that there is a problem. Of course 10x is too crude to use for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Guest guest]

,

You may be missing the point. They do

expect a good job although expectations are not necessarily met. A third party

consultant would provide such confirmation(s).

On the other hand, conscientiously or not

knowing there will not be PVS conducted, one may be more relaxed in their process

(and not necessarily you but those who work for you; what do you think, is it

possible?

Bob

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007

11:11 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold

Free "

Ken,

When a client or the insurance company is willing to pay

for such 3rd party services great. But 90-95% of the time they do

not. The client and/or insurance company expects the remediation

contractor to do the job properly.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

,

Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16

PM

Expecting? Get great news right away with email

Auto-Check.

Try the Yahoo!

Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Good point, .

Help me out with this one...If you are working for the insurance company and you write an assessment, protocol, and finally a verification report, who owns the documents? The insurance company or the client? My attorney's definition of a client is the person who writes the check.

Ken

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosenSent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:11 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: "Mold Free"

Ken,

When a client or the insurance company is willing to pay for such 3rd party services great. But 90-95% of the time they do not. The client and/or insurance company expects the remediation contractor to do the job properly.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

,

I have deliberately stayed out of this " discussion " but now will

respond concerning how you clean for chemically intolerant clients.

You say you " only use household cleaners such as Tilex and Lysol... "

My 20 years of experience of specializing with the chemically

intolerant (and other forms of hyper-sensitivity) is that these

products are two of the greatest and most frequent offenders.

Alternatives are required so the original problem isn't replaced with

a new one. If they are currently being used by the client, they must

stop before reactivity can reduce. In fact, I specifically look for

this type of product in buildings where there are complaints.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> ,

> Kudos to you and your expertise. Your self-serving posting still

> admits to " grading your own work. " I am sure you do a great job for

> your clients and their fungal problems; however, how often do you

> " fail " one of your projects??????? Sure, there is a monetary burden

> placed on the client when he has to hire a 3rd party for an

> INDEPENDENT opinion. Don't use the analagy of having another doctor

> verify the original's work (like is often done). You better serve

> your client when you offer a third party verification. What do you

> have to hide?

> Ken Duvall

> Re: " Mold Free "

>

> Thanks Amy,

>

> I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> sensitive.... perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work too

> high.

>

> Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work should

> be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work

> with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> people with their special requirements. Our firm does the assessment,

> remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of supply

> and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> good job.

>

> We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. We

> are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such as

> Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

>

> Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> on mold does help with the group of clients!

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

> Re: " Mold Free "

>

> , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

> too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

> from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

> surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

> very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

> day.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

>

>

> --

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date:

> 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl,

If you cannot use cleaners and disinfectants then you can't do mold remediation work properly. Remediations fail if not done thoroughly and people stay sick. So I tell them up front in writing exactly what I will use.

If they want someone to do the work and not use cleaners and disinfectants then they hire someone else. Although I have had many, many say they are sensitive to Tilex (Bleach) ... I've never had someone say not to do the work.

They just let the house air out before they come back. When we bleach moldy structural wood we paint with an encapsulant and then the wall is rebuilt and the baseboards caulked. There is very little smell. And whatever there is disipates fast.

The vast majority of sensitive people are sensitive to mold toxins a whole lot more than Lysol and Tylex. The mold toxins stay around if they are not cleaned as they are sticky. The cleaners eventually air out.

There are some people so sensitive to everything that you cannot do work on their house and instead they sell the house.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health > too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die > from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was > surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested > very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every > day. > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 -

Release Date: > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> >

Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

If you cannot use cleaners and disinfectants then you can't do mold remediation work properly. Remediations fail if not done thoroughly and people stay sick. So I tell them up front in writing exactly what I will use.

If they want someone to do the work and not use cleaners and disinfectants then they hire someone else. Although I have had many, many say they are sensitive to Tilex (Bleach) ... I've never had someone say not to do the work.

They just let the house air out before they come back. When we bleach moldy structural wood we paint with an encapsulant and then the wall is rebuilt and the baseboards caulked. There is very little smell. And whatever there is disipates fast.

The vast majority of sensitive people are sensitive to mold toxins a whole lot more than Lysol and Tylex. The mold toxins stay around if they are not cleaned as they are sticky. The cleaners eventually air out.

There are some people so sensitive to everything that you cannot do work on their house and instead they sell the house.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health > too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die > from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was > surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested > very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every > day. > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 -

Release Date: > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> >

Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

I don't know. I have never worked directly for an insurance company. Only for the client.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Guest guest]

,

I need to clarify my statement. I didn't say NO cleaners can be used.

I was talking specifically about the two you said you use.

I agree that cleaning is necessary but disagree that disinfectants

should be used.

I have yet to be able to differentiate between reactivity to mold

toxins, cleaners and disinfectants because I haven't been able to

discern the reactions were to the mycotoxins of mold rather than

other components of the mold growth organisms or bacterial endotoxins

or some other factor involved with damp indoor spaces.

I thoroughly agree with notifying the client up-front on what will be

used for cleaning. However, I am unwilling to accept the risk by

assuming that disclosure is sufficient. If information warrants, I

want to also consider alternatives that may be less risky.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> If you cannot use cleaners and disinfectants then you can't do mold

> remediation work properly. Remediations fail if not done thoroughly

> and people stay sick. So I tell them up front in writing exactly

> what I will use.

>

> If they want someone to do the work and not use cleaners and

> disinfectants then they hire someone else. Although I have had many,

> manysay they are sensitive to Tilex (Bleach) ... I've never had

> someone say not to do the work.

>

> They just let the house air out before they come back. When we

> bleach moldy structural wood we paint with an encapsulant and then

> the wall is rebuilt and the baseboards caulked. There is very little

> smell. And whatever there is disipates fast.

>

> The vast majority of sensitive people are sensitive to mold toxins a

> whole lot more than Lysol and Tylex. The mold toxins stay around if

> they are not cleaned as they are sticky. The cleaners eventually air

> out.

>

> There are some people so sensitive to everything that you cannot do

> work on their house and instead they sell the house.

>

>

> Rosen

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

> Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Get your own web address.

> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I need to clarify my statement. I didn't say NO cleaners can be used.

I was talking specifically about the two you said you use.

I agree that cleaning is necessary but disagree that disinfectants

should be used.

I have yet to be able to differentiate between reactivity to mold

toxins, cleaners and disinfectants because I haven't been able to

discern the reactions were to the mycotoxins of mold rather than

other components of the mold growth organisms or bacterial endotoxins

or some other factor involved with damp indoor spaces.

I thoroughly agree with notifying the client up-front on what will be

used for cleaning. However, I am unwilling to accept the risk by

assuming that disclosure is sufficient. If information warrants, I

want to also consider alternatives that may be less risky.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> If you cannot use cleaners and disinfectants then you can't do mold

> remediation work properly. Remediations fail if not done thoroughly

> and people stay sick. So I tell them up front in writing exactly

> what I will use.

>

> If they want someone to do the work and not use cleaners and

> disinfectants then they hire someone else. Although I have had many,

> manysay they are sensitive to Tilex (Bleach) ... I've never had

> someone say not to do the work.

>

> They just let the house air out before they come back. When we

> bleach moldy structural wood we paint with an encapsulant and then

> the wall is rebuilt and the baseboards caulked. There is very little

> smell. And whatever there is disipates fast.

>

> The vast majority of sensitive people are sensitive to mold toxins a

> whole lot more than Lysol and Tylex. The mold toxins stay around if

> they are not cleaned as they are sticky. The cleaners eventually air

> out.

>

> There are some people so sensitive to everything that you cannot do

> work on their house and instead they sell the house.

>

>

> Rosen

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

> Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Get your own web address.

> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

I have been watching your posts for a

while now, and just wanted to chirp in, because I don’t

know how much more of this I can take. With all due respect, I am baffled how a

person can say they do so many mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It

seems to me) all day long posting, posting and posting on this damn site. I

mean every day you must post 5-6 times. My company stays busy all day long and I

just don’t know where (if you were as busy as you say you are) you find the

time to sit in front of your computer and just type and type, instead of being

in the field working or at least managing projects.

ly, I find your remediation techniques

appalling. You sit there and quote the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3 and the fact that you do not have to get a third

party consultant to either, define or write a scope of work or even better

perform post validation sampling on your jobs because 1, there is not enough

money in the job for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or because the S-520

say’s you don’t have to.. This is completely Insane

!!! Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand that there are some

small projects out there that a consultant is not necessary, due to the size of

the potentially effected area, or in cases of Emergency water loss jobs due to

time constraints. But, having said that, I would still get a

third party to sign off on the project to potentially reduce my liability if a

problem were to occur down the road. I know, I know your

such a good remediator that this would never happen to you. Is this

because you perform your own Clearance or Post Remediation Validation sampling?

I would be willing to bet that if

you had a third party consultant like lets say a Armour, or another credible consultant who has a ton of knowledge and

common sense in this industry performing your posts tests that you would

probably fail over half the time or be kicked off the project immediately. Especially,

if he found out that you were using household cleaners on your

projects like Lysol and Tilex for chemically intolerant clients. Are you

kidding me??? I guess you get away with a lot more in Florida, because if you tried to get away with that in California, you would probably end up in court on just about every project.

As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you

tend to quote all the time, I can guarantee that no where in the document it

says, go ahead and use “Household cleaners” for mold remediation

jobs. Again, this is Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your

comments below regarding the IESO Standards. You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO uses for initial assessments, but

these numbers are a rough estimation for identifying a potentially amplified

site. No Where in the IESO document does it say that

these are standards for “post remediation sampling” as they have

not been defined yet according to the powers that be at IESO.

Re: " Mold

Free "

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing

a house based on air samples? Is it total numbers (quantitative) or is it

a combination of total plus types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a

job?

When you write a protocol for

remediating a moldy wall and then the house fails because there is significant

but lesser mold problem in the AC plenum. How do you handle this?

Who pays for you to come out again?

When you fail a job how successful

are you at getting the remediator to pay the cost for you to come back again

and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we

have to go back and fix someting and don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the

reason I ask the questions above is that I find that consultants (often but of

course not always) have very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much

more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed

the IESO testing standard. I stood up for it. Overall it is for the

most part simply a listing of the manufacturer's recommendations for the

use of their sampling products. However they do have a nonsensical 10X

number that they throw at you. Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x

the control area you cannot conclude that there is a problem. Of

course 10x is too crude to use for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16

PM

Get

your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Yahoo!

Small Business.

[Guest guest]

-

I have been watching your posts for a

while now, and just wanted to chirp in, because I don’t

know how much more of this I can take. With all due respect, I am baffled how a

person can say they do so many mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It

seems to me) all day long posting, posting and posting on this damn site. I

mean every day you must post 5-6 times. My company stays busy all day long and I

just don’t know where (if you were as busy as you say you are) you find the

time to sit in front of your computer and just type and type, instead of being

in the field working or at least managing projects.

ly, I find your remediation techniques

appalling. You sit there and quote the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3 and the fact that you do not have to get a third

party consultant to either, define or write a scope of work or even better

perform post validation sampling on your jobs because 1, there is not enough

money in the job for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or because the S-520

say’s you don’t have to.. This is completely Insane

!!! Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand that there are some

small projects out there that a consultant is not necessary, due to the size of

the potentially effected area, or in cases of Emergency water loss jobs due to

time constraints. But, having said that, I would still get a

third party to sign off on the project to potentially reduce my liability if a

problem were to occur down the road. I know, I know your

such a good remediator that this would never happen to you. Is this

because you perform your own Clearance or Post Remediation Validation sampling?

I would be willing to bet that if

you had a third party consultant like lets say a Armour, or another credible consultant who has a ton of knowledge and

common sense in this industry performing your posts tests that you would

probably fail over half the time or be kicked off the project immediately. Especially,

if he found out that you were using household cleaners on your

projects like Lysol and Tilex for chemically intolerant clients. Are you

kidding me??? I guess you get away with a lot more in Florida, because if you tried to get away with that in California, you would probably end up in court on just about every project.

As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you

tend to quote all the time, I can guarantee that no where in the document it

says, go ahead and use “Household cleaners” for mold remediation

jobs. Again, this is Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your

comments below regarding the IESO Standards. You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO uses for initial assessments, but

these numbers are a rough estimation for identifying a potentially amplified

site. No Where in the IESO document does it say that

these are standards for “post remediation sampling” as they have

not been defined yet according to the powers that be at IESO.

Re: " Mold

Free "

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing

a house based on air samples? Is it total numbers (quantitative) or is it

a combination of total plus types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a

job?

When you write a protocol for

remediating a moldy wall and then the house fails because there is significant

but lesser mold problem in the AC plenum. How do you handle this?

Who pays for you to come out again?

When you fail a job how successful

are you at getting the remediator to pay the cost for you to come back again

and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we

have to go back and fix someting and don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the

reason I ask the questions above is that I find that consultants (often but of

course not always) have very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much

more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed

the IESO testing standard. I stood up for it. Overall it is for the

most part simply a listing of the manufacturer's recommendations for the

use of their sampling products. However they do have a nonsensical 10X

number that they throw at you. Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x

the control area you cannot conclude that there is a problem. Of

course 10x is too crude to use for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16

PM

Get

your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Yahoo!

Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I forgot to mention ... hospitals use disinfectants and cleaners. Why? Because the alternative to not using them is that people get sicker than from any sensitivity to the disinfectants or cleaners.

Lysol (the spray can type) is a quaternary ammonium (quat) based disinfectant in an alcohol base. The most popular (or maybe one of the most popular) hospital disinfectants is Sklar. This is the same formula as Lysol (in the spray can) except a slightly higher concentration of Quat.

We actually use Sklar and not Lysol as it is a bit stronger and we can buy it a gallon at a time from the hospital supply distributor.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health > too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die > from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was > surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested > very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every > day. > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 -

Release Date: > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> >

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I can send you references comparing disinfectants. Bleach does the best job at getting rid of toxins, allergens, mold spores and toxins. Unfortunately you cannot use it on everything as it can destroy contents. I find that when bleach is used on structural wood and then encapulated followed by building back the walls ... you've got an excellent solution to many mold problems. Low cost and high quality with minimal side effects.

Lysol type of quat based disinfectants are widely used not only in homes but in hospitals.

If you give me the name of the cleaners and disinfectants that you do use I will give you well established references that compare those those chemicals with bleach and alchohol based quats.

Mostly likely the cleaners that are "less risky" do not do as good a job as bleach and quats. So you need to define what risky means.

This is like the common tradeoff when it comes to taking a drug. There are always side effects. Which is worse not taking the drug or the side effect?

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > > > Thanks Amy,> > > > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold > > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't > > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work > too > > high. > > > > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work > should > > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, > > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work > > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people > > have

limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive > > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the > assessment, > > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of > supply > > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can > > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a > > good job.> > > > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. > We > > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with > > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such > as > > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that > > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we > > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an > > unconditional 1 year

warranty on the work. > > > > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books > > on mold does help with the group of clients! > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com> & g Release Date: > > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > Get your own web address.> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.> >

The fish are biting.

Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Guest guest]

,

Your bringing hospitals and stronger disinfectants into the

discussion are relevant solely to infection control. Killing mold

only stops one possibility within the full range of known and

suspected health effects from exposure to mold growth. But if you

must kill mold, you would do better with other than a disinfectant,

quats or not.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl,

>

> I forgot to mention ... hospitals use disinfectants and cleaners.

> Why? Because the alternative to not using them is that people get

> sicker than from any sensitivity to the disinfectants or cleaners.

>

> Lysol (the spray can type) is a quaternary ammonium (quat) based

> disinfectant in an alcohol base. The most popular (or maybe one of

> the most popular) hospital disinfectants is Sklar. This is the same

> formula as Lysol (in the spray can) except a slightly higher

> concentration ofQuat.

>

> We actually use Sklar and not Lysol as it is a bit stronger and we

> can buy it a gallon at a time from the hospital supply distributor.

>

>

> Rosen

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

> Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know why Bob Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were about? I read about them in IE Connections.

Something about ... may I quote: "Concerns of dominance, undue influence and hidden influence have arisen". And if I may continue ... "conflicts of interest were presented .... "

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

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[Guest guest]

Jim,

I beg to disagree. The types of disinfectants and cleaners used in hospitals are proven. The types of disinfectants and cleaners used by many mold remediators are not proven.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www,Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health > too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die > from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was > surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested > very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every > day. > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --> No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 -

Release Date: > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> >

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

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[Guest guest]

Carl,

Many common disinfectants kill mold but leave the toxins and allergens and mold spores. Strong bleach destroys the mold, mold toxins, allergens, and spores along with mites and their allergenic feces, insects and bacteria and the toxins they contain. What else can do that?

I am not saying that disinfecting is the main approach to remediation. As a contractor we remove problem materials and replace with new. But wood structural members cannot easily be replaced and they need to be brought to like-new condition.

What do you recommend to bring wood structural members to like-new condition?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > > > Thanks Amy,> > > > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold > > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't > > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work > too > > high. > > > > Many people on this chat

board argue that all remediation work > should > > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, > > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work > > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people > > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive > > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the > assessment, > > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of > supply > > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can > > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a > > good job.> > > > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. > We > > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with > > HVAC systems and ducting. And

we only use household cleaners such > as > > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that > > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we > > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an > > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work. > > > > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books > > on mold does help with the group of clients! > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com> & g Release Date: > > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.>

>

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